Talk:Batman

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 7 April 2020 and 8 May 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Paredes, Karen (article contribs).

Batman is an expert strategist and tactician. Add this in his powers and abilities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 106.198.94.199 (talk) 08:17, 14 August 2020 (UTC)

Bruce wayne as Batman

This article lists actor Bruce Thomas as one of those who have portrayed Batman on screen. This, however, has seemingly been refuted by Bruce Thomas himself (as stated on Bruce Thomas' own Wikipedia page, complete with a source). On the basis of that, could this page be updated accordingly? If not, why? Thanks in advance.

He has denied playing the character on Birds of Prey, but he did play him in commercials. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 14:05, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Martial arts categories

Does this really need to be in categories for every single type of martial arts? The fact that he is a martial artist is defining, but not all of the individual types. Most of the time, he doesn't even use a single defined style of martial arts. I am going to be bold and remove them (but of course leave it in Category:DC Comics martial artists. If you disagree with me and want to undo it, all I ask is that you explain you explain your reasoning here. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 20:45, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

There are numerous occasions where individual styles Batman knows have been mentioned in the comics. You're right that he doesn't use only a single style, but any specific styles that he does use should be fair game to include as categories, provided there's a correct citation for it.Caivu (talk) 22:48, 20 December 2020 (UTC)

I’d disagree. Unlike a character like Batroc the Leaper and his use of savate, Batman is not defined by any single martial art. Therefore they should be removed per WP:CATDEF. --Killer Moff- ill advisedly sticking his nose in since 2011 (talk) 22:48, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Why does that matter? If he's been shown or demonstrated to know certain types of martial arts in the comics, and those instances are cited properly, then what's the issue in putting him in the relevant categories? For instance, if he knows karate, then it's appropriate for him to be listed in the "fictional karateka" category, even though that's not the only martial art he knows or uses.Caivu (talk) 23:23, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Caivu As WP:CATDEF says, "A central concept used in categorizing articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having". Can you find multiple third party sources for each method of martial arts that he knows? Like I said before, most of the time he doesn't even use a single defined style martial arts. The fact that he's a martial artist is defining, but not all of the different styles that he's said to know. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 02:59, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

That quote doesn't say anything about third-party sources, only reliable ones. Both Wikipedia:Reliable sources and Wikipedia:Verifiability allow for "The piece of work itself (the article, book)" to be a reliable source. Caivu (talk) 03:15, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Yes, but it does ask that the categories be used commonly and consistently. Batman is commonly and consistently referred to as using martial arts. Even if a specific style is mentioned in a book, I would argue that it is not done commonly or consistently enough to be regarded as defining. --Killer Moff- ill advisedly sticking his nose in since 2011 (talk) 16:20, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Well, in that case there has to be some sort of threshold for what counts as common or consistent. Is it the sheer number of mentions? Consistency across multiple writers and/or eras? Something else? Caivu (talk) 18:27, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't there is a concrete threshold for what is needed. A couple of reliable third party sources mentioning (not in passing) it would be good. If you can point to multiple times in the comics it's mentioned (again not in passing) that would also be good. There just has to be some concrete evidence that these types of martial arts are defining for him. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 18:51, 5 January 2021 (UTC)

Sources for Batman knowing the various martial arts listed: ALL martial arts from "Aikido to Yaw-Yan", listing Savate and Capoeira as well: https://i.stack.imgur.com/wTVMJ.jpg Batman knowing and utilizing Karate: https://i.stack.imgur.com/RBNwe.jpg Batman knowing and utilizing Wushu, Judo and Aikido: https://i.stack.imgur.com/eDgKI.png Batman knowng and utilizing Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu: https://i.stack.imgur.com/3fIQl.jpg Batman knowing Kalaripayattu: https://i.stack.imgur.com/l0Ag4.jpg Batman training in Boxing, Fencing and Judo: https://inti-revista.org/img/889ebef126e146166f4332af18462b2e.jpg Batman again knowing EVERY martial art: http://i.stack.imgur.com/mNQCE.jpg and https://i.imgur.com/vGujYWq.jpg

MartinKassemJ120 (talk) 20:26, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

MartinKassemJ120 You're completely missing the point. Per WP:CATDEF, categories need to be DEFINING for the article. The fact that he has used these things one does not make them defining for the character. 23:52, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

He does not use these arts "only once", he is consistently described as being adept in literally all martial arts and in various media seen using the techniques from the martial arts listed and/or having trained in them in the past. I'm not using these videos as sources, but just as examples of what I am talking about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OjQOvsEkBc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTZltSKD2LI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3XXL1bK-fU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGiG3XmuIrM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bQLmKI2eSt4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9SYM8_k_aM
MartinKassemJ120 (talk) 00:36, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

You're still missing the point. Being trained in a style of martial arts does not alone make it defining. But since this conversation is going nowhere, I'm start an RFC about. Feel free to participate in it. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 02:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

RFC

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There's a consensus that categorizing by each martial art does not meet WP:CATDEF. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 21:08, 10 February 2021 (UTC)

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Should this article be included in multiple subcategories for different martial arts? Note the above the conversation. Pinging MartinKassemJ120, Killer Moff and Caivu who have participated in the initial conversation to !vote here. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 02:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose As stated above, WP:CATDEF, says "A central concept used in categorizing articles is that of the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having." Knowing martial arts is defining characteristic for Batman, but the specific types of martial arts that he knows aren't defining to him. An overwhelming majority of the time, Batman does not use a defined style of martial arts. Third party sources also rarely talk about his specific styles of martial arts training. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 02:46, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose Found this while browsing through the list of RfCs. I agree with JDDJS's removal of the categories per WP:CATDEFINING. Some1 (talk) 03:52, 12 January 2021 (UTC) Some1 (talk) 05:14, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Support WP:CATDEFINING is very vague and even then, I am certain Batman fits the criteria. I have provided numerous evidences from comics, tv shows and movies of Batman training and mastering these SPECIFIC martial arts (such as Karate, Judo, Wushu, Aikido, etc.) him USING them in hand-to-hand combat, and that this is referenced in Batman media CONSISTENTLY. "A defining characteristic is one that reliable sources commonly and consistently define the subject as having". Batman is consistently defined as knowing every martial art in the world and references to specific styles have been given in the above mentioned Batman media. He IS defined as learning, mastering and utilizing these numerous specific arts. As for third party sources, I have done some digging and all of these confirm what I am saying:
  https://web.archive.org/web/20190316171734/https://buildingthebat.com/bat-skills-what-skills-does-batman-have/ (this link is used as a source in the article)
  https://wayofmartialarts.com/what-martial-arts-does-batman-know-and-use/#:~:text=How%20Many%20and%20Which%20Martial%20Arts%20Does%20Batman,Open%20hand%20strikes%20%206%20more%20rows%20
  https://batmanfeats.blogspot.com/p/martial-arts.html
  And not to mention the clips I have provided of him learning Judo from The Animated Series or the new Animated film currently coming out Batman: Soul of the Dragon were he is seen training and practicing Wushu. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MartinKassemJ120 (talk • contribs) 04:49, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Weak Oppose: I don't believe that because Batman is described as knowing "every martial art" that means that he should be added to every "fictional practitioner of X" category. Right now Batman has 22 martial arts categories; it seems like ~6 or less would be more reasonable/appropriate. I think the idea that he is a master of many styles should be communicated through the main text of the article, not less-important category listings. —WingedSerif (talk) 15:43, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Suggested Compromise I am willing to concede and narrow down the list to ONLY the martial arts specifically mentioned by name in the comics; Those being Aikido, Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, Capoeira, Judo, Karate, Kalaripayattu, Savate and Kung Fu (Wushu). The other arts listed but not mentioned by name in the source materials such as Muay Thai, Taekwondo, Hapkido, Sambo, Pankration, etc. can be logically inferred by the reader. MartinKassemJ120 (talk) 19:53, 12 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. When a character has been regularly published for over 80 years, it will be possible to pick multiple examples of just about anything. It would be possible to cite the many times he has used a gun, but it is much more important in understanding the character that he is not listed as a gun user. It is similarly much more important that the character is noted as a master of many or all martial arts than of any specific arts. Listing all the arts he has been mentioned as using encourages people to add more but does not add to the understanding of the character any better. --Killer Moff- ill advisedly sticking his nose in since 2011 (talk) 15:32, 13 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose generally (responding to a bot notification), per JDDJS. --BDD (talk) 18:59, 15 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Creator(s)

can we talk about how people keep reverting edits to mention bob kane as a creator of batman before bill finger? finger had obviously created most (if not all) of the batman mythos, but some keep editing this article as if he were to be taking a back seat to the creation, making it seem as if kane were to have taken a bigger role in batman's conception. if you guys wanna keep the article the way it is, can someone just tell me why we cant keep the article mentioning finger before kane? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C51:7C7E:F5D3:AD4D:8A7A:335D:4BD6 (talk) 05:26, 5 March 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 April 2021

IF YOU WANNA CONTINUE CLICK ON https://instagram.com/batman_justiceleague?igshid=1bn1s0n9390kw ! ! ! 46.239.6.116 (talk) 01:11, 2 April 2021 (UTC)