Talk:Somnath temple

Gems of Sree Somnath Temple

From Leisure Hours Among the Gems by Augustus Choate Hamlim (1884)

"The famous Hindoo Temple of Sumnat(Somnath) was, in the days of its perfection, one of the most renowned of all the shrines of India, and must have been a structure of wonderful richness, when it's 56 pillars, incrusted and inlaid with multitudes of precious stones, sparkled in the morning light. Even at the present day its ruins, though despoiled of their ornaments, are very beautiful and impressive." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.216.83.162 (talk) 12:50, 13 June 2018 (UTC)

Possible copyright violations

Parts of the article look like copies from some of the listed websites. Of course, the Wikipedia article may be what was copied. Robin Patterson (talk) 04:42, 13 December 2008 (UTC)

Sardar Vallabhbhai Patel and Somnath

It is unclear from the article that what role Sardar Patel played in the reconstruction of the temple. The lead says he "envisioned" and the reconstruction section says he "ordered" the reconstruction. The next line says he was among the delegation to meet Gandhi about the subject. And then says he died. So what role he played actually and to what extent? The reference about the order " Hindustan Times, 15 Nov, 1947" is not accessible. Regards,--Nizil (talk) 11:27, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Patel was the Deputy Prime Minister and the Home Minister. He ordered its reconstruction and it was done. I don't see what more you want. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 08:04, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

So his role was limited to the ordering the reconstruction. Did he played any role in fundraising or making other leaders agree for the reconstruction? Did he issued the order on behalf of the Government of India in his capacity of Deputy PM/HM? I read that Nehru was not happy about it. So I want to know and add what role he played in the reconstruction apart from just ordering.--Nizil (talk) 06:38, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Nehru did not want the Indian government involved in the reconstruction because it would compromise its secularism. But the government (the Public Works Department) still carried out the construction, with private charity funding. I suppose Nehru turned a blind eye to it, because it was an emotive issue for the Hindus. I don't know much more about Patel's involvement. I suppose that had he been alive, he would performed the opening ceremony. President Rajendra Prasad did it instead. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:45, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Somnath temple ೨.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 04:03, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Destruction of Somanatha

Hi, this is regarding recent discussion with Nizil Shah

Moved from user talk:Nizil Shah § Somanatha: History of the temple

and kautilya3

Moved from user talk:kautilya3 § Destruction of Somanatha - Motives

In view of ongoing discussion regarding the topic in above mentioned talk pages, I have rephrased my edit as following: The purpose of the raid could have been political, economic in nature of which undoubtedly iconoclasm was also one of the motivation. However, there is another apocryphal narrative from a contemporary chronicler Farrukhi Sistani, who established connection to an idol of "Manāt" from Ka‘ba with Somanatha, which said "Somanatha or Somnāt (as it was often rendered in Persian) was a garbled version of su-manāt — referring to the goddess Manāt.

Please take time to review the above proposed edit. Thanks. Santoshdts (talk) 18:44, 31 March 2020 (UTC)

Please add that Thapar quote which I had proposed. -Nizil (talk) 07:34, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

References

As you rightly said, the story of Manāt is questionable and has no evidence. I have included that as questionable narrative, I think it would be appropriate, if I add However, there is another apocryphal narrative with little or no evidence, from a contemporary chronicler.... As expanding the section with “little or no historical evidence” would not help the encyclopaedia. Your comments please. Thanks.

OK, go ahead. Please do not forget to sign your comment. -Nizil (talk) 08:33, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Oops. Sorry, I missed to sign my last comment and glad to see we arrived at consensus. Thanks.Santoshdts (talk) 10:16, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Romila Thapar:

Not unexpectedly, the Turko-Persian chronicles indulge in elaborate myth-making around the event, some of which I shall now relate. A major poet of the eastern Islamic world, Farrukhi Sistani, who claims that he accompanied Mahmud to Somanatha, provides a fascinating explanation for the breaking of the idol. This explanation has been largely dismissed by modern historians as too fanciful, but it has a significance for the assessment of iconoclasm. According to him, the idol was not of a Hindu deity but of a pre-Islamic Arabian goddess. He tells us that the name Somnat (as it was often written in Persian) is actually Su-manat, the place of Manat. We know from the Qur'an that Lat, Uzza and Manat were the three pre-Islamic goddesses widely worshipped, and the destruction of their shrines and images, it was said, had been ordered by the Prophet Mohammad. Two were destroyed, but Manat was believed to have been secreted away to Gujarat and installed in a place of worship. According to some descriptions, Manat was an aniconic block of black stone, so the form could be similar to a lingam. This story hovers over many of the Turko-Persian accounts, some taking it seriously, others being less emphatic and insisting instead that the icon was of a Hindu deity.

I propose no changes be made to this normally sleepy article while everybody is busy dealing with COVID-19. Santoshdts is not engaged in summarising what the reliable sources say, but rather to say what he wants to see while making little concessions to reliable sources. To truly summarise the reliable sources, he needs to focus on the phrases I highlighted above. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:32, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

Iam trying to edit this sleepy article as I find it bit incomplete in that particular section. It just mentions Mahmud came, raided plundered and took away some million dinars. I just wanted to add the Motive for doing so, as available in RS. The extract you have quoted is been discussed in almost all the works of modern Historians. And the last sentence from your quote says "some taking it seriously, others being less emphatic and insisting instead that the icon was of a Hindu deity.", Iam not taking any side in this discussion and, I have summarized the same in my second sentence However, there is another apocryphal narrative with little or no evidence, from a contemporary chronicler. however if you still feel the second part of my edit reffering to manat is inappropriate, I am willing remove it and keep the first sentence as it is, which deals with his assessment of iconoclasm, Irrespective of the idol being of Hindu or Pre-Islamic Arab deity Manat. Thanks Santoshdts (talk) 12:09, 1 April 2020 (UTC)

References

Review and cleanup

Floor plan of the Somnath temple, Veraval Gujarat

The current article is an odd state, given its importance and sensitive controversies surrounding it. In the current version:

• there is a big section on history. Ok, that is indeed important and needs NPOV, WP:HISTRS and mainstream scholarship.
• the rest of the article is weak, hardly anything about the temple. It has a significant WP:Coatrack section about some gate in Afghanistan (a note would suffice here), something about South pole cited to OR on google maps, and such.
• some other parts are cited to non-WP:HISTRS, non-WP:RS sources.
• there is little about the Somnath temple, its architecture, what does one see outside and inside (mandapa, artwork), its relationship to Hindu traditions, its significance and notability, what else is in / near this complex and how is it related / notable, and other aspects.

I will try to address some of this, add in the missing parts (such as the floor plan image) based on scholarly literature, do some clean up, may be move subsections into more relevant articles, summarize much more peer reviewed scholarship. I welcome collaborative suggestions and comments. Or perhaps, someone can do the clean up and expansion, save me the effort.

– Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 11:09, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

For someone attempting to introduce NPOV, asserting the "seventeen plunder campaigns" as an undisputed fact? Shall I cite some more examples or sources, that you missed?

P.S.: I suggest that you engage me at the talk page rather than try to edit-war and remove the tag with patronizing rhetoric. TrangaBellam (talk) 21:32, 3 October 2021 (UTC)

KM Munshi's last laugh

I haven't read Munshi's book. But if somebody had read it and wrote a Wikipedia section on it, I expect it would look like like this. There is no authentic history book anywhere which has a narrative with titles like "First destruction", "Second destruction" and so on. So, how is it possible for Wikipedia to have it? The secion says:

A more historical version is provided by Peter van der Veer. The first temple was destroyed by Sultan Mahmud of Ghazni. The Hindu kings rebuilt the temple. It was destroyed again during the Delhi Sultanate era, by Khilji's army led by Khan in 1299, but was rebuilt again.

References

No. This article of Van Der Veer does not give any historical version. Van der Veer is not even a historian. He is a Hindutva scholar and he is describing the Hindutva POV on Somnath. See his footnote 9. In addition to Munshi himself, he is also covering ASI, whose version of "history" was already Hindu nationalist in 1947. And he also explains why:

One of the most important master-narratives of colonial orientalism in India dealt with the inimical relations between two nations, Hindus and Muslims. The nature of these relations formed a powerful legitimation for the presence of the British as an "enlightened" race of rulers.

I don't see where the ASI has even proved that the site of the current temple is the same as that of the "original" temple, whose location is known with pretty good accuracy from Al-Biruni.

But where is the evidence that the original temple was even destroyed? The original version of the page said:

In 1024, during the reign of Bhima I, the prominent Turkic Muslim ruler Mahmud of Ghazni raided Gujarat, plundering the Somnath temple and breaking its jyotirlinga. He took away a booty of 20 million dinars. Historians expect the damage to the temple by Mahmud to have been minimal because there are records of pilgrimages to the temple in 1038, which make no mention of any damage to the temple.

References

This has been replaced with a huge section called First destruction, without any authentic source describing such destruction at all. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 11:50, 8 October 2021 (UTC)

@Kautilya3: You are badly mistaken here.

1. Have you read Romila Thapar's book on Somanatha? carefully? She does go through these destructions in sequence. Yes, she does not break her discussion into sections titled "First, Second...." She prefers to cover them in separate paragraphs over many pages. That is more a question of style, not substance.
2. Romila Thapar's book on Somnath temple also has many pages on inscriptions, and if she considers the many named inscriptions relevant... so should we. I am puzzled by your wholesale deletion there along with all the scholarly sources. Your edit comment makes no sense. Perhaps you can explain better, why Romila Thapar and others are wrong in including and discussing inscriptions in the context of Somnath temple. It is highly relevant and due, given what and how scholarly sources include these inscriptions.
3. You admit "I haven't read Munshi's book," yet you have jumped to a conclusion that is very unlike the care I have long respected you for. Your conclusion is implied in your unhelpful and loaded title "KM Munshi's last laugh". I urge you to get a copy and read. You will see that the sections I added, neither cited nor included his views in First-Fifth destruction and rebuilding subsections. The only two places I included him are two: one from a scholarly journal paper by Rosa Maria Cimino where she mentions Munshi's view and Dhaky's view – then compares them. Second, in the 1951-rebuilding section... where he was a key political player and was/is mentioned with Patel etc. So, your accusations are strange, to say the least.
4. Have you read ASI report, or the WP:SECONDARY source published by Dhaky and Shastri after ASI's excavations in 1950/1951? I urge you to read it, and you will see that you are wrong again. Thapar presents her viewpoint. But we strive for NPOV that includes all significant sides of mainstream peer reviewed scholarship. Dhaky/Meister edited and wrote the many volumes of Encyclopedia of Indian temple Architecture... which are the most respected sources among scholars for temple history and architecture, and the best quality sources here. Dhaky presents a different view than Romila Thapar. He does explain his reasons why the excavated temple remains were pre-Mahmud (pre 11th century). Dhaky publications are well known, much cited in the matters of "temple" architecture and history, and this is a temple article. For NPOV, we need Thapar view, Dhaky view, and all major views. Please read the other sources I had cited.
5. On Peter van der Veer... his paper is indeed on Somnath, Ayodhya and Hindu nationalists. He is a scholar. His peer reviewed paper includes many pages on Somnath, and on pages 93–94 he, as a scholar, provides a summary, along with citing a para from Thapar (one of the ASI Director General, not Romila Thapar). It is a concise summary, and he uses the word "historical" at several points. He does not say anywhere that this specific summary is the Hindutva summary, nor offers an alternate historical summary. Peter van der Veer's context is indeed how and why the 1951 temple was proposed, justified by Hindu nationalists, and rebuilt. So if you object for good reasons, then we can cite other scholarly sources. The para will remain the same.

Ms Sarah Welch (talk) 13:20, 8 October 2021 (UTC)