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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 31.40.131.100 (talk) at 14:29, 15 February 2022 (→Ethnicity matter). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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His mother? Prussian?

Where the hell did you come with that from? His mother couldnt be Prussian, because if she was, then he couldnt be a Jew. He was born Jewish, then his mother was Jewish. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 87.69.57.179 (talk) 16:37, 13 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Ethnicity is passed through both parents, not just the mother. CommanderJamesBond (talk) 03:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Futhermore Prussian isn't an enthicity at all. It's just a nationality. There were Saxonian Prussians, Brandenburgian Prussians, Pommeranian Prussians (you can refer to those three as German Prussians, too), Polish Prussians, Jewish Prussians, etc. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.172.48.137 (talk) 13:29, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This conversation has been rendered obsolete by the revised article. Düsseldorf did not become part of Prussia until 1815. Heine's mother was born in 1771. She was not Prussian but "Bergish". --Paul Marston (talk) 13:37, 27 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Really born "Chaim"?

The new translation of Ludwig Börne (ed. Jeffrey L. Sammons, Camden House, 2006) says (p. 13 n. 42, "There was an old rumor, propagated particularly by anti-Semites, that Heine's Jewish name was Chaim, but there is no evidence for it." If no one can point to a recent reliable source that confronts this, the claim should be removed from the article. Wareh 20:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Marx: Friend or acquaintance?

Wac Karl Marx a friend of Heine or an acquaintance? Heine was very critical of communists, saying that though their language is different, their goal is the very same absolutism he always opposed. 75.84.113.125 (talk) 21:47, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Epitaph

The article claimed that Heine had the following (tacky, doggerel) couplet engraved on his tombstone: 

Hier liegen meine gebeine -- 

Wenn wären sie nur deine! 

Heine.

("Here lie my bones -- if only they were yours! Heine." [1]) While I don't know whether Heine penned that verse or not, I do know they are nowhere near his tombstone. There are some excellent photographs of the grave here. There is a poem engraved, a much finer lyric that begins: 

Wo wird einst des Wandermuden 

Letzte Ruhestatte sein? ...

(Where will the tired wanderer's / last resting place be?), etc. So I deleted what appears to be a myth from the article. Unfortunately, it is one that might have taken firmer renewed life due to a long sojourn on this article. Best, Eliezg (talk) 22:42, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Mea culpa, "I have been Foolish and Deluded". Thank you and best wishes, --HTO (talk) 22:53, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Epitaph

Loreley

in the german wikipedia it says the this poem was written in 1824. can anyone confirm this? Sundar1 (talk) 05:29, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Important Missing Information - Treatment of the Lorelei by the Nazi's (National Socialists)

The works of Jewish poets was banned by the National Socialists. However, the Lorelei was so famous and part of German life, that is was hopeless to erase it from German life. Thus, when die Lorelei was sung as set to music or written, it was ascribed to "an unknown German poet". First Stanza: "Ich weiss nicht was soll es bedeuten dass ich so traurig bin Ein Maerchen aus alten Zeiten Es geht mir nicht aus dem Sinn" Set to music by a well-known composer.

Hez (talk) 22:44, 12 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's a famous anecdote. The trouble is, as far as I know, nobody has yet been able to verify its authenticity. The German Wikipedia article on "Loreley" says: "Von Walter Arthur Berendsohn und Theodor W. Adorno stammt die – bis heute jedoch unbelegte – Behauptung, dass das Lied so populär war, dass es selbst die Nationalsozialisten im Dritten Reich nicht gewagt hätten, es aus den Lyrik-Anthologien zu entfernen, obwohl Heinrich Heine als Jude zu den Dichtern gehörte, deren Werke verboten und verbrannt wurden. Seine Urheberschaft sei jedoch unterschlagen und stattdessen meistens „von einem unbekannten deutschen Dichter“ oder ähnliches angegeben worden." Paul Marston (talk) 09:21, 13 November 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Hegel's hard-to-gauge influence

Hegel's influence on Heine is very tentatively stated. The inclusion of the image of Hegel giving a lecture makes it seem as though he was obviously a strong influence. According to the article, "Most important was the philosopher Hegel, whose influence on Heine is hard to gauge. He probably gave Heine and other young students the idea that history had a meaning which could be seen as progressive." Did Heine believe in Hegelian historical progress? As a matter of fact, the article quotes Heine as dreading the future when the Communists are in power. Heine wrote, "I can foresee all this and I feel deeply sorry thinking of this decline threatening my poetry and the old world order." The whole sentence on the influence of a progressive Hegelian meaning to history is not very informative. It almost sounds vacuous.Lestrade (talk) 19:57, 2 February 2012 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Maybe you should try to fix it then. As Sammons says, the question of Hegel's influence on Heine is extremely confused (just like everything else to do with Hegel IMHO). Also, the young Heine is not the same as the old Heine. I'm not any kind of Hegelian and, frankly, I don't know what Heine saw in him. At least he didn't attempt to copy Hegel's prose style. If you think the picture gives undue weight to Hegel's influence on Heine, then go ahead and remove it. On the other hand, it might be viewed as an illustration of Berlin intellectual life in the 1820s. Paul Marston (talk) 11:38, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Continental System, effect on Berg

Napoleon's Continental System is quite a large, and complicated topic. Another user has inserted a couple of off-hand references to its effect on Heine's native city of Berg, but without proving much context or explanation. I thought I might correct the language to make it sound less partisan, but he reverted me. So I thought I might just use a direct quote that the user volunteered, but then he reverted me again.

My contention is that, the way in which the CS effected the city of Berg is of course relevant to this article - but the CS as a whole and its effect on Europe isn't. Because that is a subject that has been debated for hundreds of years, and deserves more than just off-hand yet difinitive characterizations. LiamFitzGilbert (talk) 08:57, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do not understand the objection to the mention of the Continental System. The information is taken from Jeffrey Sammons' biography of Heinrich Heine. The whole Wikipedia section is a summary of Sammon's chapter, "The World of Heine's Boyhood". It's there because it caused a major economic depression in Berg, where Heine spent those years. Napoleon was asked to ease the situation but he refused. This changed the attitude of most residents toward French sovereignty, but not Heine's.
At the time of Heine's birth the Duchy of Juelich-Berg was "under French occupation" (Sammons' exact words) and would remain so until the Treaty of Lunéville in 1801 (Sammons, p.30). It only became a client state under Napoleon. Paul Marston (talk) 09:08, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am not objection to its mention. I am objecting your characterization of it, which generalizes unacceptably. For some parts of Europe, the CS was greatly beneficial economically. For other parts, it wasn't. It depended where you were (bad for southern France and the Netherlands; good for northern France and Switzerland). That's all. That's why I insisted on you referring to the effects it had specifically on Berg. The way you had it written, it implied that the whole of Europe was in a similar situation to Berg. Which isn't true. LiamFitzGilbert (talk) 09:16, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's about its effects on Berg because that's where Heinrich Heine lived. This is an article about Heinrich Heine. It's obvious from the context that this is referring to Berg and not other areas of Europe, since Berg is mentioned and they aren't. Paul Marston (talk) 09:19, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Right. So, I don't understand what your objection is to the current state of the article..... ?LiamFitzGilbert (talk) 09:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have solved this by adding "in Berg". The references to the pre-Napoleonic French occupation and Napoleon's conscription and taxation (in Berg) are also back. Paul Marston (talk) 09:23, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good work, mostly. I'm still unhappy with the weight/emphasis. But, I fear that you have now breached the 3RR rule that you told me about on my own user page. Have you not? LiamFitzGilbert (talk) 09:27, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not if there is a talk page consensus. I could simply have reported your earlier edits for vandalism because you removed sourced content, but I didn't because I believe you are a newcomer here. Paul Marston (talk) 09:29, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Vandalism? That's rich. Consensus? What consensus do you speak of - the consensus of one (yourself)? You've got a really negative attitude... LiamFitzGilbert (talk) 09:31, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sigh* I'm sorry you feel that way. For my part, I find your attitude and your edits ... inexplicable. My attitude is merely to report what Jeffrey Sammons, the leading expert on Heinrich Heine, says about Heinrich Heine, the subject of this page. As far as I understand it, that's how Wikipedia is supposed to work. It takes a lot of effort, but this isn't about our own opinions but those of the experts. Napoleon had both a positive and a negative influence on Berg and we must report them and Heine's attitude towards them (i.e. the good outweighed the bad). Paul Marston (talk) 11:52, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What the source actually says

[Sammons bio, p.30] Referring to 1797, the year of Heine’s birth: "At that time, however, it [the Duchy of J-B] was under the absentee rule of the Elector Palatine and, more importantly, under French occupation. French revolutionary troops had bombarded Dusseldorf and set it afire in 1794 and occupied it the following year. This period was a hard one for the city, which had to pay heavy tribute and did not find the French very pleasant masters, who remained until the Treaty of Lunéville in 1801."

[Sammons bio, p.32] on Napoleon: "But other circumstances made the regime onerous and, in time, disastrous. Napoleonic rule always involved heavy taxation as well as continuous and irritating conscription for his military adventures. Berg suffered severely, more than any European country, from Napoleon’s blockade of Europe against English economic power. The area was already becoming an industrial territory and was sensitive to inhibitions to trade; at the same time, tariff barriers kept it outside the French national economic system. Napoleon could not be prevailed upon to relieve this squeeze, and the result was a profound depression: businesses failed, industries stagnated, unemployment and criminality increased. The Rhinelanders had little desire to become Prussian, but any allegiance they might have maintained to French sovereignty was dissolved in the economic suffering caused by Napoleon’s Continental System."

One thing wrong with my version

On rechecking Sammons, it appears that Napoleon did not technically conquer (or re-conquer) the Duchy of J-B/Berg. It was ceded to him when Max Joseph of Bavaria joined the Confederation of the Rhine (ref: Sammons, top of page 31).

Additional information

The Continental System was particularly important to Heine and his family because it may have been a leading factor in his father's bankruptcy. Sammons again (this time in Heinrich Heine: Alternative Perspectives 1985-2005 (p. 67): "Napoleonic rule was a decidedly mixed blessing for the Grand Duchy of Berg. While the territory profited from the modernization of political administration, it suffered grievous economic dislocation and depression. It is not improbable that the difficulties leading eventually to the inglorious bankruptcy of Heine's father, who was, after all, an importer of English goods, were initially rooted in Napoleon's economic blockade of the Continent. These consequences of Napoleonic rule bore much more directly on Heine's life and fate than the alleged emancipation of the Jews; yet he completely ignored them..." Paul Marston (talk) 12:39, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More on economic "disaster", conscription and taxation

David Nicholls, Napoleon: A Biographical Companion, p.22: "Economically, however, French rule was a disaster for Berg. The Continental System brought trade to a virtual halt, and when a plea for economic integration with France was rejected, manufacturing relocated to the French west bank of the Rhine, adding to unemployment and the misery of the population. Economic destitution, conscription, and the hated tobacco and salt taxes caused the people of Berg to rise against French rule in 1813, when news of Napoleon’s defeat in Russia filtered through. The rising was repressed without pity, but the end was near for the artificially created Grand Duchy."

J. Christopher Herold The Age of Napoleon, pages 271-272: "[Jacques Claude] Beugnot’s adminstration [of Berg] was exemplary, but its benefits were canceled by Napoleon’s increasing exactions of contributions and manpower and by the adverse effects of the Continental System on the Grand Duchy’s industry and trade."

J.P Riley Napoleon and the World War of 1813 on the disastrous economic effects of the Continental System (p.36): "Michael Broers cites the example of the Grand Duchy of Berg, in which the resulting job losses were dramatic: some 10,000 by 1810, a contributing factor to the revolts which broke out in the Confederation of the Rhine in January 1813."

George Lefebvre From Tilsit to Waterloo (p. 257): "The Grand Duchy of Berg, strangled between the French Empire on one side and her German neighbours to the other, was in a pitiful plight. Her sales fell from 55 million currency in 1807 to 39 million currency in 1810. Trade agreements would have provided some relief but Napoleon did not encourage these, for he wanted to keep all the profits for France."

Alexander I. Grab Napoleon and the Transformation of Europe (p. 98): "In sum, Berg’s financial situation was modernised but it also imposed a heavy burden on the population.

"Even more aggravating was the serious economic damage caused by the Continental Blockade and French customs barriers. Berg possessed the most prosperous industrial base in Germany [...] To prevent competition with French industry, however, Napoleon imposed high tariffs on their imports into France and other satellites. Consequently, Berg's exports declined from 60 million francs prior to the blockade to 11 million francs in 1811." Paul Marston (talk) 19:21, 19 August 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Heinrich Heine/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Plenty of information and illustrations here, but no indication where the information comes from for the most part. An infobox (isn't there one for poets) of some kind would be helpful. Bob Burkhardt (talk) 17:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 17:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC). Substituted at 17:33, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

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German - Jewish ?

That Heine was (born-ie ethnically, if not practising) Jewish is not disputable, but is it normal to state someone's ethnicity/religion in the opening sentence unless ethnicity/religion is central to the person's notability? That he was later vilified as being Jewish in the Nazi era, does not make his work Jewish in character surely? Pincrete (talk) 19:33, 21 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He was neither an ethnic nor a religious Jew for most of his life. That, just like the first King of Sweden from the Bernadotte Dynasty: was born in an ethnic culture and religion, then changed his identity.31.40.131.100 (talk) 14:04, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Individual poems

I have removed Wandere that had been added by Sergeismart with a translation of his own, but without any context. :wikisource:Main Page|Wikisource]] may be interested in such works, but a poem without any context does not improve our readers' understanding of Heine. There were also issues with the translation; translating poetry in archaic language is no easy task. If the article should say something about Wandere, it would likely be better to rely on a professional, published translation than to come up with our own. Huon (talk) 20:30, 23 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • I find some of the English renderings of the poetry inappropriate and not accurate, particularly the last two lines of Wanderemunde, representing more an effort to be literary in English rather than telling more accurately what Heine wrote, even if perhaps without scansion or rhyming. To borrow a criticism of Goethe's autobiography "Mehre Dichtung als Wahrheit"? 2604:2000:1600:4A64:948D:A61F:E568:7378 (talk) 20:24, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Heine in Nazi Germany: two corrections

there are two common inaccuracies in the paragraph on Heine in the time of nazism: first, in searching through hundreds of books of the time, there has never been found a proof for the "Lorelei" given with "author unknown". Anja Oesterheld (2011). "„Verfasser unbekannt"? Der Mythos der Anonymität und Heinrich Heines Loreley". In Stephan Pabst (ed.). Anonymität und Autorschaft. Zur Literatur und Rechtsgeschichte der Namenlosigkeit (in German). Berlin: de Gruyter. pp. 325–358.. See also Erhard Jöst (2008). "Eine spannungsgeladene Wirkungsgeschichte". Literaturkritik (in German) (12).. Second, Heine's books were not among those immediately forbidden and burnt by the nazis. Only in 1940 were they (along with all books by Jewish authors) forbidden. This is also stated in the above references. In addition, see "Schwarze Liste von 1933". ("black lists of books to be burned 1933) and Liste des schädlichen und unerwünschten Schrifttums. 1938. p. 55. contains one book by Heine (printed in Moscow 1935), not "all works" as, e.g., for the Manns (p. 91) or Bert Brecht (p. 16) and many others. Unfortunately, I don't have citation in English to use as sources. But I could work the above in (and would mention explicitly that no evidence has been found for the long-lived myth of the "unknown author"). Thoughts? --Qcomp (talk) 15:58, 15 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There is no requirement that sources must be in English. The sources you mention are perfectly fine. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:13, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]
ok, I rewrote the paragraph, please have a look; BTW, the title "Nazi interpretations of Heine" does not seem appropriate to the text that follows. Something like "Heine in Nazi Germany" or "Nazi policy on Heine" would seem a better fit. --Qcomp (talk) 09:13, 16 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Ethnicity matter

I hope that everyone here agrees that humanity was born In East Africa and the habit of determining the ethnicity of a person only by his ancestors can lead us into a dead end, right? This is usually done on Wikipedia, but what if the person CLEARLY broke with their past identity, it's tradition and etc and started a new one life with new identity? This is exactly what happened to Heinrich Heine: he changed his Jewish identity and became culturally German and religiously Christian. I do not understand why the Jewish Wikipedia in hebrew understands this, recognizes him as an ethnic German, does not try to classify him as "their own", but the editors from Germany do not want to consider him a German by culture, but only by language of his works. You guys don't believe in human free will to determine their culture? It seems reasonable to me to leave reference to German people at the beginning since assimilation is an important part of his biography, which is how he started his Germanophile writings at a time when nationalism was in vogue.31.40.131.100 (talk) 14:28, 15 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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