Talk:Franz Liszt

Lead section

... "if not the greatest" ...

Regarding Iggy402's removal, on 06:06, 14 November 2006, of "if not the greatest," I see the point about the danger of inserting personal point of view. However, to say that Liszt is merely "one of the greatest pianists in history," instead of "one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history," still seems a significant understatement, given extraordinary and credible testimonies of his contemporaries and expert opinions which have followed. The preponderance of these suggest a distinct possibility that Liszt indeed was the greatest. For this reason, my insertion on 10:56, 2 November 2006 of the phrase "if not the greatest" seemed reasonable - especially since I still was stopping well short of asserting that he in fact WAS the greatest.

For this same reason, I applaud K. Lastochka's 23:59, 14 November 2006 contribution, which gives Liszt credit where it is due, more credit than for being merely "one of the greatest" pianists in history.

Still I believe it is reasonable to point out that he is generally considered to be one of the greatest - if not the greatest - pianists in history. Again, to say that he merely was "one of the greatest" pianists in history seems an understatement. Bstct 09:51, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Glad you appreciate my contributions. :) I should probably be watched carefully lest I add some POV of my own though--I'm a big Liszt fan lately. :) K. Lastochka 15:35, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Comtesse or Countess

"the Comtess d'Agoult". Comtess skould be either Comtesse or Countess.
S.

It's Comtesse, I think - I'll change it. --Camembert

Hungarian Rhapsodies

The reference to "Hungarian Rhapsody" was added by an anonymous user, who apparently wasn't aware that Liszt wrote 19 of them. Which one do you reckon he/she was thinking of? #2, perhaps? --Ortonmc 03:08, 15 Sep 2003 (UTC)

I guess so. Somebody's made Hungarian Rhapsody as well, so there's a bit of tidying up needed. I'll see what I can do tonight if nobody gets there before me. --Camembert

I've replaced the old page with the singular title with Hungarian Rhapsodies. Eventually we might want an individual page for each, but that's some way in the future, methinks. --Camembert

I am very confused by the numbering of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody! I have a Naxos CD, 8.550327, which contains a Hungarian Rhapsody No. 2 in C#m, arranged for orchestra. In the program notes it is read, "Hungarian Rhapsody, No. 2 (No. 12) the most popular of Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsodies, No. 2 in the orchestral arrangements the composer made with the aid of Franz Doppler, and No. 12 in the set of 19 for piano, was composed in 1853 and dedicated to the young virtuoso violinist Joseph Joachim, who that year had brought Brahms to visit him. ..."

But when I listen to a DVD Kissin (The Gift of Music), he plays Liszt's Hungarian Rhapsody No. 12 in C#m, it is totally a different piece! And I've tried to search for Hungarian Rhapsody in google, it is strange that many websites give a different numbering, some of them have the No. 2 in GbM, some of them C#m, some of them Dm! And the most problematic is Liszt has written two Hungarian Rhapsody in C#m, and some websites have listed No. 2 C#m and No. 12 C#m. It is really confusing. Could anyone help to give an answer? 203.186.238.243 20:07, 24 March 2006 (UTC)

Concerning the Hungarian Rhapsodies there is a little bit of confusion due to the fact, that there is not only one cycle by Liszt but there are two of them. In December 1839 Liszt composed 12 pieces of "Magyar dalok" ("Hungarian melodies") from which the pieces 1 - 7 were published in 1840 and the pieces 8 - 11 in 1843. The 12th piece, an arrangement of the Rákóczi-march, was censored for political reasons. (There are about a douzen different piano-arrangements of the Rákóczi-march by Liszt.) In 1846/47 Liszt composed new pieces from hungarian material and called them "Rhapsodies hongroises". They were published with numbers 11, 12 etc. Later in Weimar Liszt revised his former works so that a new cycle of "Rhapsodies hongroises" was created. In order to distinguish between the two cycles arabian and roman figures are used. The 12th piece of the first series is therefore called "12. Hungarian Rhapsody" and the 12th piece of the second series "XII. Hungarian Rhapsody". The "12. Rhapsodie" is by the way a former version of the "V. Rhapsody" whereas the "XII. Rhapsody" is in most parts a revised version of the "18. Rhapsody", which was left unpublished by Liszt. A complete edition containing all versions of the Rhapsodies is presently not available. Details can be found in: Gárdonyi, Zóltan: Paralipomena zu den Ungarischen Rhapsodien, in: Beiträge von ungarischen Autoren, ed. Klara Hamburger, Budapest 1978. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.192.232 (talk) 15:41, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

Franz (sometimes Ferenc) Liszt

Sometimes Ferenc? What is the original full Hungarian name? Rafał Pocztarski 11:54, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Liszt is known as Ferenc, the Hungarian version of his name, in Hungary. However, Liszt's family were German-speaking (rather snobbishly so, since Austria was the dominant partner in the empire) and Liszt himself spoke only very poor Hungarian and always used the German version of his name. -- Necrothesp 13:33, 21 Aug 2004 (UTC)

So the situation is somewhat similar to that of Chopin in Poland, who is known as Fryderyk Franciszek Chopin (sometimes even ‘Szopen’ though usually ‘Chopin’ and in any case always ‘Fryderyk’) but who himself changed the name to French “Frédéric-François.” I was wondering whether “Franz (sometimes Ferenc) Liszt” shouldn’t be something in the lines of “Franz (real name Ferenc) Liszt” but now I see that ‘Franz’ is not only a German version of his real name (like e.g. “Franciszek Liszt” is a popular Polish version) but it is the real name itself, so in fact there is no “original full Hungarian name”—sorry for the loaded question. So the Polish article Ferenc Liszt should be renamed to Franz Liszt, as should the CD I recorded this morning... I stand corrected, thanks a lot. Rafał Pocztarski 00:02, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

On the other hand, the modern Hungarians do always refer to him as Ferenc (presumably for reasons of national pride, since he's their national composer and they don't want to use a foreign-sounding name). -- Necrothesp 03:13, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Thanks. The original name is Franz and that is what in my opinion should be used in the title, unless some other form of the name is much more popular in the language of the article in question—thus Ferenc in Hungarian. For anyone speaking Polish, this subject is just being discussed on pl Ferenc Liszt talk page right now. Rafał Pocztarski 20:46, 22 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Oh, I agree entirely. The name he used is the name we should use. -- Necrothesp 00:11, 23 Aug 2004 (UTC)

I think that is is abosolutly great that this many people have an opinion. I play Liszt for a living and this is what I have to say. I know that Brahms wrote Hungarian Dances but as far as Rhapsodies that are Hungarian I beleive only Liszt wrote those. I only teach Liszt and have only studied Liszt. I think it is very good. I also think tha twe should put samples of all the Hungairans on there I will work on that.--24.155.163.13 03:00, 9 May 2006 (UTC)

Debating whether Liszt's name was Franz or Ferenc is quite the same as debating wether the capital of Austria was Vienna or Wien. There is a lithography by Joseph Trentsenzky showing Liszt wearing some hungarian costume at age of about 11 years. Beneath, the name is printed as "Liszt Ferentz". Thinking of the fact that in Hungarian the second syllable is stressed so far no accent is put to the first and imagining the first "e" in "Ferentz" was very shortly pronounced it would be nearly the same as "Franz". The first "e" may therefore have had indicated a special kind of pronounciating a rolling "r". Liszt's father Adam Liszt in a letter to his own father from August 14, 1825, called his son "Franzl". (The "l" at the end is clearly legible so that it is sure that not "Franzi" is meant. The letter is partly written in old german letters by the way.) Czerny in his letters to Adam Liszt wrote "Franzi". Liszt's mother in her letters to him called him "Liebes Kind". Countess d'Agoult called him "Franz" which is known from some of her letters and from the third part of her memoirs. Liszt himself wrote "Franz" in a document of enrolement into the freemason lodge "Zur Einigkeit" from September 18, 1841, which can be seen in Walker, Liszt I, p.369. "Franz" is a shorter form of "Franziskus" or "Franciscus" and in the last form the name is written in his birth certificate. The meaning of "Franciscus" is "French" from the point of view in the Middle Ages. So it can go as "Francois" as well and this version can be seen in Blandine's birth certificate which was signed by Liszt as "F. Liszt". By the way, in order to explain what words like "Ungarn", "Magyar", "Hongroise" and others like that might have meant for Liszt nothing less than an essay of severeal douzens of pages will do. It was in many parts a country of his fantasy.

If someone of you looks at Walker's p.369 he will see on p.368 some others of his typical mistakes. The example from Liszt's arrangement of his Loreley (Walker writes "Lorelei" instead.) with which according to Walker Liszt should have stolen from the future of music was in fact made in the end of the Weimar years, after Liszt having had the score of Wagners Tristan in hand. The beginning of the first version of the arrangement from 1846 having had escaped from Walker's eyes in some way had been quite different. (Both versions are in volume I/15 of the New Liszt Edition, published 1982.) A further mistake is to be found in Walker's note 17 in p.368. After having praised Philippe Autexier for his book Mozart & Liszt sub Rosa Walker writes, Liszt became member of the lodge ""Zur Eintracht"" on February 22, 1842. In Autexier's book it is shown instead (p.53 with notes) that Liszt was member since February 8, 1842, and master since February 22, 1842. Liszt himself in a letter to d'Agoult wrote that he had become member on February 7 but this was an error of date. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.162.45 (talk) 11:32, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Organization

I think the biographical information here would be more readable if organized similarly to how Haydn and Chopin are seperated into sub sections and headers. Thoughts? --Sketchee 17:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I went boldly ahead! I think it works but feel free to rename the sections, etc. --Sketchee 13:59, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Nationism

Dear wikifriends, in book Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque (Paperback), Miroslav Benko, L'Age d'Homme Editions (2003), ISBN: 2825117897 is written, that F. Liszt has slovak nationality.

"Of the other Hungarian 19th century and early 20th century composers, Bartok's place of birth is today in Romania and Dohnanyi's in Slovakia; that of Kodály still remains in the 40% of Hungary which stands as the remnants of the country."

This was removed as it probably shouldn't be here. I thought I'd just save it in case anyone wants something to develop a page on Nationalism in music or even a section on the nationalism page. --Sketchee 01:16, Jan 2, 2005 (UTC)

Is Christoph von Dohnányi a composer anyway? The original author may have been referring to his grandfather, if and when that section is written Schissel : bowl listen 03:15, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

To my knowledge, Liszt is commonly referred to as a Hungarian composer, which is an image he helped to promulgate, but I believe that he actually does not have any Hungarian ancestry. He was Austrian. --11/21/05

He was not Austrian, but an ethnic German Hungarian. As he said: "Je suis Hongrois".

According to my knowledge his father Adam Liszt was Slovak since both his parents (Juraj (eng. Georg) List and Barbara Šlesáková) were Slovaks (both his parents and Adam Liszt were speaking slovak as a first language). It implies that he (Franz Liszt) has Slovak German origin and not Hungarian German. He also learned hungarian as a second language and never used it extensively. So to call him hungarian composer is possible only in the context of 19th century since he was born in Austria-Hungary Empire which consisted of Austria, Hungary, Bohemia, Moravia, Slovakia, and parts of Poland, Romania, Slovenia, Croatia, and Italy. But to oversimplify and to relate him exclusively to present Hungary now in 21st century is really impropriate. My source is the book "Franz Liszt, compositeur slovaque", author Miroslav Demko, publisher Lausanne : Editions L'âge d'homme, 2003. This book is available in the library of the University of Oxford. I want to ask people really interested in this article to check upon this information. Iambilko 04:23, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Liszt was German Hungarian. His Slovak origin is a nationalistic fabrication.

That is possible. But what are your sources? I've presented my source and in some way I trust the authority of University of Oxford. I believe they include non-fictional book into their archive after some consideration (and this one is from 2003, relatively new one, so it can present a new discoveries on the subject of Franz Liszt). For instance let's look onto Sándor Petőfi, national hungarian poet, whose father was Serbian and mother was Slovak but because they lived in Austrian Empire (in the Hungary part) he claimed himself as Hungarian since Hungary that time strongly forced other nations to convert themselves to be Hungarian. Any other nation (from the hungarian part of the empire) during that time was strongly oppressed by Hungarians. And these are the facts. And again, I'm not saying that it is true (I mean Slovak German origin of Franz Liszt), but there are new sources which claim something different. And according to the really strong anti-nationalistic politics of the 19th century's Hungary (the fact) I am inclined to believe that this might be the true. Another example is that before the year 1918 many people would say that they are Hungarian and after 1918 they became Serbian, Slovak, Romanian, Pole, Hungarian. And please don't take this personally. I'm just keen to know how is it. Iambilko 22:24, 16 August 2006 (UTC)

Dear respected colleague, if you have ever read any of Petőfi's poetry you will know that he was not "forced" to "convert himself" to be Hungarian. He was Hungarian, and he was extremely proud of it. He gave his life for Hungary, for God's sake! I don't know how many times I have to say this: in Hungary, nationality and ethnicity are two different things. You can be Magyar Hungarian, Slovak Hungarian, German Hungarian, anything else Hungarian. You just have to call yourself Hungarian, have allegiance and loyalty to Hungary, speak Hungarian (or in Liszt's case make a valiant effort!), and love Hungary as your homeland. I'm sure I've said this before. There are many, many, many great Hungarians whose ethnic origin was not Magyar, but their nationality is SHOULD not be called into question, nor should their loyalty. K. Lástocska 01:02, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Just want to throw a few points into the mix. Firstly, the main library in Oxford is a copyright deposit library, they have every book published in the UK. While this book doesn't seem to have been published in the UK, the point still stands that they include many books, no matter their merit. The books in the library are not a reflection of Oxford university therefore, but the person who wrote them. And I for one have never heard of the author in question, so I couldn't comment on her reliability. Anyway, I would be happy enough for the contention that he does have slovak ancestry to be included on the condition that it is mentioned that this is the view of the author above, not mainstream scholarship. It would have to be quoted and referenced properly also. Changing that he is hungarian to slovakian with no reason/source/anything provided is unacceptable. M A Mason 16:40, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

First of all we need to understand what we mean with an ethnic hungarian. Hungarians are generally considered to be the most mixed ethnicity in Europe. Actually, most hungarians have also slav and german ancestry, more or less, as well as other ethnicity. Liszt had to. The name Liszt and that family may have had, with a high probability, same roots as a transylvanian-hungarian family named Liszty, Liszthy, Liszthiusz etc. That family was hungarian-speaking already in the 1500-century.A part of this family moved to the very same parts of Hungary where the composer had his relatives. Most of of the Liszt family were lutherans as the lutheran Liszts that moved from Transsylvania to the northern parts of what now is Burgenland. Probably Liszt is a descendant of this family. If this is true he might have some remote ancestry with the Hunyady family! According to Liszts statements and according to photos of him his mongoloid features are sometimes recognizable. This could mean that he had magyar roots. The mongoloid element in central europe is associated with the magyar tribes or some proto-magyar ones as the avars or the more distant huns. From an anthropological point of wiev Liszt had magyar ancestry with the uttermost probability. What is most important is however his own feeling in the matter. In this respect he was without doubt hungarian. He was even a nationalistic hungarian. And among nationalistic hungarians he was among the most excessively so. It doesn´t matter at all that he besides magyar also had german, austrian and different slav forefathers. Beside this he seemes to have had roumanian as well. It is quite sure that he had magyar, german and slav roots, as most hungarians do have. The name Liszt is according to bartok slavic. That doesn´t mean that it is slovakian. Some of Liszts ancestors on his fathers side wore the name Slezak. The name Schlezak is a germanized western-slav name. Probably it is czech or moravian and not originaly slovakian. The Slezaks probably however mixed with slovakians and probably magyars as well. On the other hand there are several milion people of mixed slovakian hungarian ancestry. Most of these consider themselves hungarian. Petöfi is one good example. Petöfi had however some magyar ancestry on his mothers side, but she was predominantely of slovak origin.

25 Aug 2006 Laszlo IG Schüszler

HELLO, I live near Edelstal (Burgenland) where Adam Liszt was born. As far as I know, Adam List was german-slovakian descent. Maria Anna Lager, Franz Liszts Mother, was German (born in Lower Austria, a german part of the monarchy). Adam Liszt changed the name from the german "List" to "Liszt" so that the Hungarians spell the name correct. Franz Liszt was born in West-Hungary, in which Germans, Croatians and Hungarians live together, the majority of that part of hungary were germans and they spoke german. Hungary was a part of the Austrian empire (later Austrian-Hungarian monarchy). Later, after WorldWar I, the people of West-hungary ("Deutsch-Westungarn") voted for the unification with the Republic of Austria (now called "Burgenland"). MY OPINION: Liszts ethnicity is German(mother austrogerman, father German/slovakian). His Fatherland was the Austrian Empire, but his Homeland Hungary, where he was born and he grow up, so Liszt loved the hungarians and their culture very much. Was Liszt a German in Austria or Hungaria, or a Hungarian with German ethnicity??? I think both :) (Sorry for my poor english! Greetings from Burgenland, former German-West-hungary!)

I say: He is an austrian-hungarian composer, german-slovacian descent

How could Franz Liszt have been an enthusiastic Hungarian nationalist if he couldn't even master the language fluently? Did he not attempt writing a letter in Hungarian once, but change to French quickly with apologies that he was unable to complete it in Hungarian. I would have assumed that being a Nationalist of a country would include making the effort of learning the language sufficiently... On another matter; Franz Liszt appears to be on the 'List of Austrians'; don't think that's entirely correct

What makes you so sure he didn't try to learn? :) As a patriotic Hungarian whose mother tongue is not Magyar, I can attest to the fact that it's damn hard to learn!! :) If he was able to write even half a letter, well, then that's pretty good. :) K. Lastochka 02:31, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

Liszt and Beethoven

The section about Liszt's meeting with Beethoven takes up way too much place IMO. It is interesting though, so I suggest we move it to a separate article (e.g. Liszt and Beethoven) and reduce it to a single sentence or so within the main article, with a link to the new article. — Pladask 12:57, Feb 20, 2005 (UTC)

Like Sketchee, I went boldly ahead. :-) I think this is much better. — Pladask 18:20, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)

Question about audio sample, and reading..

Audio sample- in the media sample, what's Au bord d'une? (Resolves to download that audio sample soon, but if it turns out to be Au bord d'une source, it really should be labeled as such)

Reading- a further reading section with e.g. biography references may be good (I'd nominate Walker's, unsurprisingly, for instance.) Schissel : bowl listen 03:02, Apr 29, 2005 (UTC)

I did a futher reading section, with of course the Walker books and some others which Liszt enthusiasts may be interested in. Looks like the 'au bord d'une' has been changed, my PC doesnt want to play it, but Im sure its right. I've looked at works lists and its the only one like it. —M A Mason

I checked it, the audio's definitely right Tedneeman 23:59, 17 May 2005 (UTC)

Website with Searle / Raabe catalogue numbers?

The current link at the end of Noted Works is 404. I know a couple good sites that list Searle numbers (liszt.dk, lisztworks.com), but neither lists Raabe numbers.

One commercial site (www.hungaroton.hu - e.g. Recording of Les Quatre Élémens) lists Raabe nos. in cataloging their Liszt recordings, but other sites seem to be scarce on the ground, yes. Schissel : bowl listen 05:38, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Or it might have been a typo- this link has some of the information? Schissel : bowl listen 05:49, May 31, 2005 (UTC)

Unnecessary stuff

Many articles about musicans or composers etc on wikipedia start with "is considered to be the greatest/best..." or something like that, like in this article "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time". Adding things like that is just unnecessary and stupid, weather he/she/it is good or not is highly subjective. It's just as stupid as "This is Franz Lizst(for example), some people like him, some don'ta". As if peoples oppinions would change if they found out he is appreciated by some. Thats one the problem with society, people care to much what other people thing.

Well to get on topic again: Less of that stuff.

While I agree that "Possibly the greatest virtuoso of all time" is a little too POV-ish, he was, and is still widely considered to have been just that, with the numerous legends and stories attached to his life. And you must surely agree that it would be downright silly to rule out such an essential fact in his biography. :-) – Pladask 12:50, August 6, 2005 (UTC)

To give an own opinion of Liszt (I write it in german as I read it:)

"Die guten Leute können nicht davon ablassen, von meinen Triumphzügen und meiner unerreichten pianistischen Meisterschaft zu faseln, und das ist mir gründlich zum Ekel geworden. Sie könnten wahrlich etwas mehr sich schämen mir gegenüber, als mich mit Zurückweisung auf meinen früheren längst überwundenen und verjährten Standpunkt zu verunglimpfen."

In other words the thing Liszt would have liked to get was acceptance as composer and not as greatest pianist of all times. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.135.143.99 (talk) 10:08, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Third concerto

There is third concerto in Eb major too.

Yes, a performance was broadcast on SBS TV (Australia) some years ago. I seem to remember this was claimed to be by Liszt but conclusive proof is lacking. JackofOz 23:04, 4 December 2005 (UTC)

Anti-semitic claims

Franz Liszt is a musical hero to me. However, there should be some mention of his anti-semitic views, even if its justs a blurb.

Was he really anti-semitic? I know that Alan Walker argues that he was wrongly accused of it. I have however heard that he made some comments that could be construed in that way, same for Chopin. I'm not saying it's not true, just that if it is mentioned it needs to be balanced and properly sourced. I'm in two minds as to whether or not it's noteworthy, true or not I don't think he was ever hostile to anyone because of any views that he had, or indeed was public about it, as Wagner was. Wagner's music is apparently banned in Israel due to his anti-semitism, and as far as I'm aware there are no such restrictions on Liszt's music, which shows to me that perhaps if he were an anti-semite, he wasn't active, if you catch my drift. I'd be interested to hear others opinions on this. M A Mason 02:03, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure, I guess I really don't know. I sure would like to find out. Thank you for posting, as this is the first time I've heard about Alan Walker. I would really like to find any analysis of evidence, letters, correspondance, etc. that could shed some light either way.

After a bit of digging, it appears that Alan is the most comprehensive source on Liszt to date. Also, I would add:

Franz Liszt: A Guide to Research by Michael Saffle

Contained within Saffle's book is a reference to the following book:

Liszt: A Self-portrait in His Own Words, ed. David Whitwell. Northridge, CA: Winds, 1986. vii, 242 pp. ML410.L7A164 1986.

"A summary of Liszt's life, character, and activities drawn from the composer's letters, essays, and other documents. Includes observations made by Liszt on the Jews, the peoples of various nations, and a variety of individuals--among them, Bach, Ludwig II of Bavaris, Tolstoy, and Wagner."(Saffle)

Perhaps 'ol Liszt got a bad rap? I think you may be correct. Gstejska 08:45, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Here's one more source:

Riehn, Rainer. "Wilder die Verunglimpfung des Andenkens Verstorbener. Liszt soll Antisemit gewesen sein...." pp. 100-14

Keep in mind that people were generally much more anti-semitic and racist in the 19th century than they are today. It is easy for us to criticize people from 200 years ago, as if we would have been different had we lived back then. Chances are we would not, because it was simply accepted by white Christians that nonwhites and jews were racially inferior. That said, I've never seen any evidence that Liszt was anti-semitic. I can't give you a footnote, but I recall reading a bit of a letter from Liszt to (I believe) the Princess Sayn-Wittgenstein encouraging her to meet & hear a new student of his, "though he is of the tribe of Jacob." That student was Carl Tausig, a Jew and one of Liszt's star pupils, to whom Liszt was especially devoted, and whose death at age 29 was bitterly mourned by Liszt, as Tausig was said to remind Liszt of his own son Daniel who had similarly died young some 12 years before.

\\David Curtin, Lock Haven USA 9/1/06

Gstejska 22:40, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

Walker discusses this especially in the book (which I seem to refer to a lot.. hrm) Franz Liszt: The Weimar Years, 1848-1861. The two books which have been used most often, according to Walker, to make the case that Liszt was antisemitic were the last edition of his book on Chopin, and even more, the second edition of his book on the Gypsies and Their Music (I don't have the exact title here, nor Walker's book.) Caroline von Sayn-Wittgenstein, who he loved and almost married was an anti-Semite, and he gave much of the work of revising those books to her in his later years, and I gather he only discovered what she added to the second book especially- which contained some horrible slurs - when it was late to do anything about it, and then did not reveal her part in it out of misplaced chivalry. That said: this is what I remember of his account, will add page number sources and corrections when I have the book in front of me, and I'm not really positive. Schissel-nonLop! 18:56, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

I have never found any evidence that F.L. was antisemitic. In fact he often seems to be significantly less so than some of his contemporaries (*cough* Wagner *cough*). I have read in many books that the nasty bits in his books were put in by Princess Caroline--sorry I can't cite any sources right now... :( just my 2 cents.K. Lastochka 02:35, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

You could try Lina Ramann's diarys (edited as "Lisztiana" by Schott (Mainz)) and learn, that Liszt agreed as thesis with the dangerous passages in the second edition of his book on the Gypsies.

no mention of his invention of tone poem

Franz Liszt is famous for his invention of the tone poem, or symphonic poem. The Wiki 'symphonic poem' article mentions this fact, and links to Liszt, but there is no mention in the actual Liszt article about his invention. It might be prudent to include this, as well as a link in a paragraphed section other than a listing of his works, which could be quickly skimmed over & missed.

What makes Liszt hungarian?

What was it? His mother was german. His father was magyarised german. He DIDN`T EVEN SPOKE HUNGARIAN!!!!!!!!!!! Can anyone show me just one prove that Frantz Liszt spoke hungarian? A letter, a journal, anything! NO YOU CAN`T!!! Because he didn`t spoke hungarian. Even if he didn`t, is there any prove that he ever called, or considered himself "magyar"? Greier 18:58, 25 March 2006 (UTC)

ACtually Franz Liszt did consider himself Hungarian, and true he didn't know the language very well..he was half Austrian. Adam Liszt was Hungarian, born in Hungary, worked with a Hungarian family, has a Hungarian surname and Hungarian diacratics on name. Where is the evidence that he was 100% German? Leave the sentence as it was before 65.185.213.33 changed it without reason

Liszt was clearly Hungarian. He was of course born there himself, lived their for 10 years, the Hungarians hailed him as a national hero on his returns there, let's not forget the decorations and nationalistic awards he recieved (I'm thinking of the that sword of honour, or whatever it's called). He wrote a lot of music inspired by Hungary; the Rhapsodies, the Hungarian romanzeros, the Hungarian character portraits and so on... Admitedly so did Brahms for example... but what it does show is that in his heart Liszt was Hungarian. He certainly tried to speak Hungarian, there's a letter he sent to his mother which begins in Hungarian, but goes into French, his preferred language - but was he French? No. Of course he wasn't. Language certainly doesn't determine nationality.

And finally, I won't keep you much longer, Liszt writing to Caroline about his identification with the magyars: "Nothing elsewhere can replace these things, and the physiognomy of the race, when they are linked to childhood memories and when one has kept in tact that tonality of the heart which is a feeling for one's fatherland" (Franz Liszt the Weimar years - Alan Walker, p. 404). Good enough for me.M A Mason 12:03, 10 April 2006 (UTC)

More sources:

"I am Hungarian, and I do not know a greater happiness than to introduce to my beloved country the first fruits of my education and studies-as the first expression of my gratitude. What is missing yet of my maturity I intend to acquire with lasting diligence, and perhaps then I will have the good fortune to become a small branch of my country's glory. -Announcing F.Liszt's "homecoming" concert that took place on May 1, 1823 in Pest. (Franz Liszt the Virtuoso years - Alan Walker, p. 87)

When Liszt arrived in Hungary in December 1839, after an absence of sixteen years, he was greeted as a national hero. No other living Hungarian was so widely known. He was, as István Csekey puts it, a "shining star" to the entire Hungarian nation. (CLHS, p.6)

For three generations Liszt's male forbears had worked on Hungarian soil. They loved the country, they identified with its people, they were absorbed in its culture. They lived, they reproduced, and they died in exactly the same way as thousands of other peasant families of Magyar stock. And in the unlikely event of any one of them being questioned about his "nationality", he would have replied, "Hungarian". Given the mass of evidence we now have at our disposal concerning Liszt's family background, it is truly remarkable that so seemingly simple and fundamental a matter as his national identity was ever disputed by modern scholars. (Franz Liszt the Virtuoso years - Alan Walker, p. 48)

Liszt was Hungarian in thought and word and deed. He often said throughout his life that he was Magyar; he never once claimed that he was either French or German. He constantly referred to Hungary as "my homeland" (RGS, vol.2, p.223), and it gave him immense pleasure to write, "I am part of the national pride" (LLB, vol.3, p.77). Liszt was always declaring himself for Hungarian causes. He gave many charity concerts for the people of his country, at which he sometimes appeared wearing national dress. He helped to found the great music academy in Budapest which still bears his name. In 1848 he attempted to buy the humble farm cottage in Raiding where he was born (Acta Mus. no.3877). This does not sound like a man who has no homeland, least of all like a man ashamed of his origins. (Franz Liszt the Virtuoso years - Alan Walker, p. 49)

The fact that Liszt spoke no Hungarian is not important, although Liszt himself always regretted it. Large numbers of nineteenth-century Hungarians never learned their own language. They were part of the Austrian empire and the German tongue dominated their nation, especially the western part of it, where Liszt was born. "I may surely be allowed, in spite of my lamentable ignorance of the Hungarian language, to remain from my birth to the grave Magyar in heart and mind..." -Liszt's letter to Baron Antal Augusz, dated May 7, 1873 (PBUS, p.160)

I'd be more than happy to quote further sources, although if your doubts regarding his national origin remain strong, I would read through Alan Walker's "Frans Liszt-The Virtuoso Years". The prologue section goes through considerable length to establish Liszt's origin. gordonf238

So, bottom line is he was an assimilated Hungarian, whose family were assimilated Hungarians, and he WAS in fact Hungarian even though he came from Germanic stock. Kind of like Lajos Kossuth.....nationality and ethnicity get pretty mushy in Central Europe, the way I see it is if somebody feels Hungarian, calls himself Hungarian and loves Hungary as his homeland, then he's Hungarian. :) K. Lastochka 02:10, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

I like your attitude K. Lastochka :) Who are we to say what nationality he was? He was born in Hungary, and identified as Hungarian. Clearly a hungarian. M A Mason 16:12, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Lager or Lagen

Which is his mother's maiden name - Lager or Lagen? According to this article it's Lagen, but according to the article of Anna Liszt, it's Lager. --1523 15:47, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Lager, according to Alan Walker; I'll change the article, thanks :) M A Mason 16:53, 18 April 2006 (UTC)

Road to Pilgrimage section

Can anyone explain to me why this section is so titled? If not I'll change it to something else. Arniep 14:34, 23 April 2006 (UTC)

Seemed a good time to change it so I did, to 'Years of Pilgrimage', seemed a lot more appropriate than 'road to pilgrimage' anyway, and it is of course the title of the set of pieces composed at this time. Do change it if you disaprove, thanks M A Mason 19:13, 24 April 2006 (UTC)

Liszt, the priest

Does anybody know if Liszt became a priest or something similar. There was a story that he was a ladies' man, and he promised each he will marry them, it never happened. In order to avoid the promise, he studied 4 years to be a priest and he was ordained in 1860's, even though he had kids, he was a widow.

Liszt never became a priest, common misconception. He did, though, take the 4 Minor Orders of the Catholic Church; which, as the article shows, requires neither that the person taking the orders be celibate, nor remain unmarried. It is true that he was a Ladies' man in his day, though to say he promised them all marriage is an exageration. He desperately wanted to marry Princess Caroline however and they even appealed to the Pope for permission but were unsuccessful. His taking of these orders was certainly not to avoid marriage, as he was completely devoted to Caroline, but for purely religious reasons. M A Mason 21:23, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Are you sure

- Old newspapers say he married to avoid marriage and I do not mean to Caroline, but to other ladies, it's possible this happened before he met Caroline. So what kind of 4 orders? Was this similar to a brother? I know he was religious but...

This I think is an example of what I talk about in Liszt's AID (everyone get on there and vote for him!), if you ask me it's just a rumour put about by his critics to damage his reputation. He had relationships with a number of women, Someone St Criq (sp?) was one, then there was Marie and Caroline, and he had an affair with a woman called Agnes Street-Someone. He may have proposed marriage to any or all of them. There is this article about Minor Orders that explains the ins and outs of them. I think it was similar to a brother, I know he lived in a monastery and had the title Abbé, but he was under no obligations to do with marriage. Like I say, little more than a rumour. Where and when did you read about this in an old newspaper, or where did you find out about it? I'd be very interested to know, thanks M A Mason 21:03, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

Where did you get your info from

Ok, I know somebody who can give you that file, leave your email here for few days, I will get that person to email you. But if he had women, still, should not even be Abbe. What's AID?

Don't worry about the file, I'll find it myself at some point. And you could have women and be Abbé, he wasn't a monk or a priest etc, he just took the minor orders - helping out at Masses and the like. AID is the article improvement drive where wikipedians vote for an article thtat they all work on to improve it to the standard of a featured article. M A Mason 20:24, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Added a subsection on Liszt's virtuosity

I have added "Liszt's virtuosity and technical reforms" and "piano recital" under Musical style and influence to shed some more light on his pianistic reforms. gordonf238 21:13, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

this section refers to his Transcendental Studies and then says that Schumann said they were playable by 8 or 9 people at most. This is incorrect. Schumann was referring to Liszt's Douze Grandes Etudes, which were the much more difficult precursers to the 12 Transcendental Studies - which are much more managable pieces. 199.111.216.222 06:39, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Greatest

Was he greatest or did he get his virtuosity from Chopin? And yea, one of the reasons he was abbot, he wanted to avoid marraige.

As far as I know he and Chopin were both superior pianists when they met at Paris. I don't really understand your question, Chopin didn't teach Liszt and I dont think there's much of a stylistic influence, neither musically nor technically. M A Mason 20:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Chopin did not think Liszt was superior when meeting him in December 1831 in Paris. See his letter to Titus Woyciechowski from December 12, 1831, where Liszt is called a zero comparied with Kalkbrenner. According to a description in Le Pianist (a French paper) of March 20, 1835, Liszt acted as some kind of caricature when piano playing in these days. There is a similar description in a biographical essay which was published in Mai 1843 under the name Duverger. Liszt read it before publication and there were apparently no objections from his side. Chopin told his pupils they should not play in the manner in which Liszt was playing. From Liszt's own point of view it was the winter 1839/40 when he started playing beautiful. In Czerny's memoirs the same opinion is to be found. In spring 1844 there is a period with reviews in which Liszt's playing is described as being horribly excentric. Busoni heard Liszt in the late 1870s finding his playing dull and academic. Emil Sauer in his memoirs wrote that Liszt playing a Sonata by Beethoven had at least done a good job as actor. From all this concludes that Liszt's playing had been quite different at different times. It is altogether most probably sure that it did not sound like Leslie Howard's and this is one reason (among others) for which I find it isastonishing that in an enclyclopedia article there is advertising for him to be found. Let Liszt may have been the best pianist who ever lived, Leslie Howard is certainly not.

Liszt and Chopin

"Liszt's contemporaries such as Chopin and Schumann saw this kind of worship as vulgar and inappropriate, and eventually came to despise Liszt because of it."

Hmm...it is to my knowledge that the relationship between Chopin and Liszt was love/hate, they were close friends, but they could be envious at times. I think it is far too strong to say despise here, though I am not going to change it without approval. Lots could be said about the relationship between Liszt and Chopin, though I don't know much about Schumann and Liszt o_O — Pmerrill

I support you on the Liszt/Chopin matter. I don't know anything about Schumann and Liszt either -- a source to back this up would be nice. — Pladask 18:11, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

I think I'll go ahead and take out the names altogether, that's pretty harmless, thus making it: "Some of Liszt's contemporaries saw this kind of worship as vulgar and inappropriate, and eventually came to despise Liszt because of it." --Pmerrill 20:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

The relationship between Liszt and both Schumann and Chopin is fascinating. It's clear that Liszt held Schumann and Chopin in the highest possible regard and was a champion of their works. But the tension with Chopin, according to the biographies and letters I've read, seem to indicate personal reasons for it relating to an occasion when Liszt used Chopin's apartment for a rendezvous without telling him about it (a story that has never been definitely confirmed), though the two did patch up their friendship by Chopin's final years. Schumann considered Liszt a genius who squandered his talent in the pursuit of mere showmanship and seems genunely dismayed by what he saw as a betrayal of Art for the sake of flashy pyrotechnics; Clara Schumann loathed Liszt and that is well documented. Mhare40

Composer-Pianist

Should there be an article named "Composer-Pianist"? It's become a very common phrase phrase, as they are truly a unique breed when compared to regular "concert pianists". There are lots of pianists that could fall under that category, who made a living as both a composer AND a pianist - Liszt, Chopin, Rachmaninoff, Scriabin, Marc-André Hamelin, etc. Is it worth its own article? --Crabbyass 18:58, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

He was also a conductor. He actively promoted the music of Berlioz and Wagner during his Weimar years, and continued to conduct much of his own music for the remainder of his life. I'm open to the idea of mentioning both of these attributes in the opening paragraph Gordon Freeman 15:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

Freemason?

Broken category- nono. More seriously: I know of no evidence that Liszt was a freemason at all. He was a lay Franciscan as of the mid-1850s and later took minor orders- not inconsistent but not the same as evidence, which is lacking. Schissel | Sound the Note! 21:55, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

There is a book Mozat & Liszt sub Rosa with lots of materials. It is from 1984 I think and the author's name is Ph. Autexier. Liszt was freemason since February 8, 1842, as a matter of fact. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 83.135.143.99 (talk) 09:59, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

That Photo

Okay now -- what's up with the photo of Liszt at the top of this article? It's probably the ugliest thing I've ever seen! I, of course, mean no offense at all to whoever uploaded it -- any photo is better than no photo -- and if anyone should be offended by my comments it should be solely the actual photographer.

In any event, can we do no better than this? I did a search on google and found many, many photos/portraits of the great Liszt. Now, what's most important in an encyclopaedia, naturally, is the written content, and I think the editors have done a pretty good job here. However, the photo is so unattractive that I actually find it distracting: I think we should really consider switching that photo for one of his more dignified portraits, such as this one from Britannica.

I would just do it myself, but I don't think I can just take it from that particular (encyclopaedic) site and upload it here. Can anyone advise me in better detail as to Wikipedia's policy on this? --Todeswalzer|Talk 23:24, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

The photograph in this article is Public Domain, because of the photographer's age, among other things. There is a very strong feeling among Wikipedia's founders that Wikipedia should have as great a part free content as possible. I don't know, but I'm guessing that many of the pictures you found are not demonstrably public domain. If you can find one which is public domain, then according to Bridgeman v. Corel or whatever, any reproduction of it is public domain. (This is all as opposed to Fair use, which is used far too much on WP, IMHO. Mak (talk) 23:32, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

That portrait you posted was painted by Henri Lehmann. And a quick google has revealed that he died in 1882, so it should be public domain. I like this version [1], which is quite good. From here [2]. M A Mason 23:45, 31 October 2006 (UTC)

Excellent! I've switched the old photo for the Lehmann portrait. Thanks for the help. --Todeswalzer|Talk 00:18, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Yeah that looks great :) M A Mason 16:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

LOL! I was about to upload that pic myself--was musing on what Hungary-related articles needed work, and remembered "Oh yeah, that picture of Liszt Ferenc was absolutely gross, he deserves better, I should put up that painting of him when he was young and dashing." And lo and behold, somebody already did! Köszönöm szépen (thanks very much) to whoever put that up! :) K. Lastochka 02:27, 7 November 2006 (UTC)

There are some problems concerning your pictures of Liszt. At least two of them are apparently in posession of a person Ernst Burger living in Munich who published a book: Franz Liszt, Eine Lebenschronik in Bildern und Dokumenten, in 1986. They are "Franz Liszt's music room in Weimar, 1884" and "Liszt at piano, 1886". Without knowing much about the legal stuff for myself it could be imagined that Burger wants some references to his collection added. In the "Four ages of Liszt" the first picture was published in Leipzig's Illustrierte Zeitung from September 27, 1845, and it was printed "Franz Liszt, Ritter des Ordens pour le mérite" beneath. Liszt was "Ritter des Ordens pour le mérite" since summer 1842 so that the picture may not show him as boy but as man. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.162.45 (talk) 11:35, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Further on Weimar

The invitation was at the instigation of Maria Pavlovna, if I remember, but Carl Alexander played a large role. There's also now an article on Hippolyte André Jean Baptiste Chélard if his contract (Cornell U Press edition of The Weimar Years, page 96) with Liszt (immediately contradicted by Grand Duke Carl Friedrich (sorry, wrote Carl Alexander- who was not yet in a position to contradict that...), followed by ill-will...) is relevant*... I do think that the roots of the growing ill-will which helped create the "Barber of Baghdad affair" are of interest if maybe not for a brief article like here.

Much more generally, since some of Walker's references and footnotes on other subjects are presently unverifiable (in locked libraries, for example), a person feels uneasy about using his book for reference material at times. Ways in which his has since been superceded by better research would be of great interest to me.

• Chélard was J N Hummel's successor in Weimar. The agreement between Chélard and Liszt was worked out in October of 1842, and contradicted in one respect by the Grand Duke a few days later: the agreement had stipulated that Liszt would "remain Herr Liszt for life, without accepting any other title", a few days later he was asked to sign a document in which he agreed "Herr Liszt has informed me today that he will accept with gratitude and pleasure the title of Kapellmeister in Extraordinary". Though much might have followed without this disagreement, and while Liszt's new title was in fact - as Walker has occasion to note later- well-chosen (he explains the meaning of 'in Extraordinary' moderately well...)- the whole conflict, while not necessarily avoidable, was no help to his mind in the years that followed, a decade later when he settled in Weimar ... Schissel | Sound the Note! 15:46, 3 November 2006 (UTC)

External links

Please see the new order on the external sites and check the sites I have there deleted. There is another (commercial) site: pianosociety.com/cms/index.php?section=221 which contains an huge collection of cds (to buy online of course). My other comments are on the hystory page. Alegreen 08:58, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Liszt interpreters

I'm not quite sure where to post this, but I think every composer should have his/her most remarkable interpreters listed in some standard way. --Sdistefano 02:22, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Uhhh...trust me, trying to decide who the most remarkable Liszt interpreters are would set off a battle of epic proportions. It's such a personal-preference thing, there isn't any good way to say for sure and definitively who is the "best"...and Liszt is particularly difficult in that respect. K. Lástocska 00:52, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

You never know if there's going to be controversy until you try. Who's up for Nikolai Demidenko? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.49.180.137 (talk) 06:38, 7 January 2007 (UTC).

Zoltán Kocsis and György Cziffra all the way!!!! :) K. Lásztocska 16:15, 7 January 2007 (UTC)

Naturally, the correct answer is Vladimir Horowitz. Anyone who disagrees with me is ... (politeness prevents me from saying). JackofOz 04:59, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

For me, it's Alfred Brendel, hands down. Listen to his recording of Annees de Pelerinage (Italy), he takes you to heaven and hell in the Dante Lecture like no other. Words don't do justice..FRM SYD 08:58, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

slovak??

patently untrue statement that his first language was Slovak removed (it was actually German), and unusual statement the veracity of which I seriously doubt removed from article and pasted here pending verification.

Here is the weird statement:

He was fascinated by the pre-Hungarian history of Slovakia, he dedicated Slavino slavno Slaveni (Let's Celebrate Famous Slavs) to St. Cyril and Methodius.

Anyone heard of this before?!?! K. Lástocska 20:26, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Why no Opus numbers?

The article currently states:

Although Liszt provided opus numbers for his works during his lifetime, these are rarely used today. Instead, his works are usually identified using one of two different cataloging schemes ...

So then the question, Why no Opus numbers? If anyone knows the answer, I'd be very interested. (It might also be useful to explain in the article why the numbers are no longer used.) --Todeswalzer|Talk 00:21, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

It may be misleading to hear the first piano concerto referred to as Liszt's opus four or so I gather when the version we know (which has the same no.?) is no student work, for example. I suspect that one reason and not the only reason may be akin to the chronology problem you encounter with Antonín Dvořák, where on the contrary his publisher's sales and resales led to high opus numbers for early works (opus 80 for the E major quartet) that give also no indication of chronology either, and make the Jarmil Burghauser catalog preferable. (Of course, there's a Beethoven cantata, The Glorious Moment (»Der glorreiche Augenblick«) - I've heard it once, it's by my favorite composer; I liked it- from around 1812-4 and premiered in the same concert as symphony no. 7, whose opus no. is 136!) Schissel | Sound the Note! 02:03, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

The last composition of Liszt that got an opus number is definitively the first part of his Lucia-Fantasy, the Andante finale, which got the opus number 13. It was composed in autumn 1839 and published in Jauary 1840. In Liszt's subsequent compositions there is no opus number at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.102.54 (talk) 10:38, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

POV?

“ Indeed, Liszt is frequently credited with re-defining piano playing itself, and his influence is still visible today. ”

This seems a little POV to me (if not the entire sentence, then at least the "indeed" part). I tried tweaking it, but it doesn't sound quite right any other way. (I didn't save the changes for that reason.) — The still-Esperanzan  $PЯINGrαgђ  Always loyal! 01:09, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

There may be some POV problems with the wording; however, the essence of the statement is sound and we should be very careful not to eliminate or downplay Liszt's significance as a pianist. He did redefine the piano and the way it was played, and his influence will be felt for as long as the instrument is around. I'll check back in a few days and see what I can come up with. --Todeswalzer|Talk 04:32, 14 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, I didn't say he didn't, but it just sounded a little weird with the "indeed" in there. — The still-Esperanzan  $PЯINGrαgђ  Always loyal! 02:39, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Franciscus, Franz, Francois, Ferenc, Frankie

I just removed this sentence:

He always used the German version Franz, never the Hungarian version Ferenc.   

for the simple reason that it's actually pretty hard to tell. He was born as Franciscus, his parents called him Franzi, the Germans and Austrians called him Franz, the French called him either Franz or Francois, the Hungarians called him Ferenc...and he didn't help us poor confused saps out one bit by almost invariably signing his name as simply "F. Liszt." :) K. Lásztocska 01:56, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Alan Walker's Liszt

In my opinion the twofold advertising of Alan Walker’s Liszt is contradicting the required Wikipedia neutrality of point of view. Notwithstanding Walkers celebrity his three volumes are containing lots and lots and lots of errors and mistakes many of which have been refuted in subsequent Liszt research. Walker's books about Liszt are written from an extremely restricted kind of point of view, which means that everything Liszt did or is supposed to have done must have been admirable to the highest point, whereas all contemporaries with alternate opinions could only have been jealous (Ferdinand Hiller), have had paranoia (Princess Wittgenstein) or have been in some other kinds ill (Robert Schumann, Comtesse d'Agoult, Olga Janina and many others). In order to gain neutrality there should be added references to other books. (The Liszt biography of Serge Gut for example is comparatively excellent.) If someone really likes to get into contact with the personality of Liszt and his life, reading his own letters (published up to a huge amount) and playing his music will be the best way after all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.192.232 (talk) 15:37, 16 February 2007 (UTC).

I take your point about the leaning towards Walker's research, and his pro-Liszt bias is evident (as is arguably the case with most biography). User:K. Lastochka has mentioned working on getting this article to featured status, and as far as I'm concerned the big thing this article is lacking is references. If there are important points from other biographies missing, please add them! I have only the Walker books, and two others that are 80 years old. I'm planning on getting more for getting the article to featured status soon. If you can prove that anything in the article is erroneous, again please remove it, but if it is anything signicant mention it here and your own source so we can discuss it. M A Mason 17:46, 16 February 2007 (UTC)

I have read your answer and shall certainly reply but for some reasons it will take some days. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.102.54 (talk) 10:35, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

Coming back to the case of Alan Walker's Liszt I give some examples for two different types of mistakes to be found in his volume "The Virtuoso Years" (Liszt I). There is at first a plenty of smaller ones. An example for this kind is the table of Liszt's tours (Liszt I, p.294/295) where the name of Vienna is missing. Walker's statement (Liszt I, p.242) Thalberg would have toured in Spain in 1845 overlapping Liszt's own visit is wrong. In reality Thalberg lived as respected artist in Paris preparing an edition of his Sonata op.56 and giving concert on April 2, 1845. The example from Thalberg's Moses-fantasy in three staves (Liszt I, p.234) is in all editions of the fantasy printed in two staves. Liszt did not rent the Paris Opéra House as "reply" to Thalberg's concert of March 12, 1837 (Liszt I, p.237) but he took part in a concert production of Berlioz. The 12 transcriptions of Schubert-songs including the "Erlkönig" were not published by Haslinger and the poems were not printed separately (Liszt I, p.258) but they were published by Diabelli in September 1838 with words underlying the notes. A mistake of another kind is to be found in Walker's note 6 on page 234 of Liszt I. Thalberg's Moses-fantasy is not a partial copy of a paraphrase which the harp virtuoso Parish-Alvars played with spectacular success on his European tours. Thalberg played his fantasy on March 12, 1837, in Paris for the first time (It was not an "old warhorse" in that time as Walker states in Liszt I, p.237.) whereas the European tours of Parish-Alvars started in 1842. The fantasy of Parish-Alvars is in fact an arrangement of Thalberg's fantasy. Moritz Dietrichstein was not a Prince, Thalberg was not an impostor (Liszt I, S.232) and it is most probable that he had real princely forbears. (The "Gothaische genealogische Adelskalender" is a helpful source in this respect.) In Liszt I, p.186 Francois Joseph Fétis is "arch-conservative" which contradicts Liszt's own letter to Fétis from September 17, 1859, concerning the importance of lessons about "Omnitonie" and "Omnirhythmik" that Fétis gave in 1832 and which Liszt attended. According to Liszt I, p.149 Liszt made love with Adèle de la Prunarède for the whole winter of 1832/33 in the Savoie. So he must have had abilities of bilocation as he was at the same time in Paris being introduced to the Countess d'Agoult. (Liszt I, p.190) The program of the concert on May 14 in Vienna is not typical as Walker states (Liszt I, p.256) because Liszt was typically concentrating on a virtuoso repertoire. A classical program containing a Sonata of Beethoven and Fugues of Scarlatti and Händel is therefore a rare exception. The "Katzenfuge" in this program is the only piece of Scarlatti played by Liszt in all his concerts by the way. The letter shown in Liszt I, p.202 is not a letter of Marie d'Agoult, Liszt did not play the "Hammerklavier Sonata" in the Salle Erard and Berlioz could not possibly have read the score in his hand (Liszt I, S.236), but this would be really lengthy and complicated to explain. (The sources are mainly materials by Liszt himself.) I could go on in this way filling some books with corrections to Walker's and it would be rather thick books after all. At this place I just repeat and assure that Walker's productions about Liszt are not reliable. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.128.71 (talk) 17:22, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

Thank you for your very concise response, I don't have time at this moment to address everything you've written, I will have a look properly tomorrow. I should start by saying that the edition of The Virtuoso Years which I own is the revised edition, 6th printing, so it seems likely that little errors of which you speak have been removed - the ommission of Vienna from the list of places toured between 1838 & 1847 (pp. 294-5) certainly has been rectified. I can't speak for the edition of Thalberg's works, or their date of publication. Nor can I speak for the dates of his own tour, though Liszt's tour of Spain ended in April 1845 (p. 401), your date does suggest that in fact their tours didn't overlap, I'd be keen to see your source. It's interesting about the Moses Fantasy being a 'war-horse'. Walker states that the 'God save the King Fantasy' was at this time newly composed, not the other way round - perhaps he is confused, or has been misinformed. Again, a source would be nice. On the programme, whether or not it was atypical is a matter of opinion, and while Liszt did play a heck of a lot of virtuosic material at this time, he did not just play studies or similar. No one disputes that the Cat's fugue is the only piece by Scarlatti that Liszt played in public. The letter on p. 202, in my edition at least, is not claimed to be by d'Agoult, but by Liszt. I'd like to see a source on Liszt not playing the Hammerklavier, after all it's not inconcievable that he did. As for Berlioz, you could just point us in the direction of a source. As far as I know he wasn't blind or anything at this time. M A Mason 18:53, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

It is somewhat difficult fo me answering in short because I do not like people advertising their own productions. But in this case I shall answer anyway and tell that I did some Liszt research myself. I wrote a thesis about Liszt which you can trace with Google and download as pdf. It is: Protzies, Günther: Studien zur Biographie Franz Liszts und zu ausgewählten seiner Klavierwerke in der Zeit der Jahre 1828 - 1846, Bochum 2004. In the third part which is called "Liszt and Thalberg" you will find all sources you have just been asking for. The letter on p.202 is certainly not a letter by Liszt which goes without further sources because Liszt's handwriting was horrible in that time and the handwriting in the letter is definitively not his. (In case you are interested I shall look into some books and tell the writer's name the other day. In the moment I think that it is Théophile de Ferrière.) Berlioz could not read the score because it was dark when Liszt played the sonata and it was neither the "Hammerklavier" nor in the Salle Erard. There are some mistakes in my own text by the way but I hope they are smaller ones than Walker's. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.92.2 (talk) 14:11, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

Having had a new look at Walker's p.256 with the "typical" program I permit myself giving some further comments to that page. In his first paragraph Walker describes Liszt's Viennese audiences and the name of Kalkbrenner is to be found. But Kalkbrenner was not in Vienna in that time which is well known from several sources. (The Nouvelles of the Gazette musicale of Paris and an own letter of Liszt are only some of them.) The other persons listed by Walker attended many concerts of different virtuosos. So there was nothing special concerning Liszt about it whereas Walker states the contrary. Walker then states Liszt would have played more than forty compositions in Vienna from memory, which may have been or may not have been. It is in any way a statement without the slightest reference to a source so that it cannot be relied on. It could as well have been that Liszt played most of his repertoire from score as he was used to do at least up to 1835. In p.256 follows the "typical" program itself. My statement the program would have been not typical can be verified when comparing the program with other programs of Liszt. (That could be done using Michael Saffle’s book Liszt in Germany for example, where some hundreds of programs are listed.) In this sense it turns out that the program p.356 of the recital on June 9, 1840, in London is typical whereas the classical program with two fugues p.256 is in fact a rare exception. In p.256 Walker then states Liszt, playing the Katzenfuge, would have invented some kind of "historical recital". It is wrong again because there were other pianists who were really used to play classical programs. Among them were Carl Maria von Bocklet in Vienna and Ignaz Moscheles in London. Moscheles had started with historical recitals in spring 1837. On February 11, 1838, he played, according to the Gazette musicale of Paris, January 27, 1838, a program containing 20 pieces in the first and two pieces in the second part. Among the pieces in the first part was a Sonata of Scarlatti followed by 13 other pieces in the older style. It followed Etudes by Herz, Potter, Chopin, Mendelssohn, Thalberg and Moscheles himself. In the second part he played a Sonata by Beethoven (op.57) and a Sonata by Weber. This was a real admirable classical program but the program played by Liszt on Mai 14, 1838, was not. According to Walker (almost at the end of his page) as soon as Liszt had entered Vienna, Schubert song transrciptions would have started pourring from his pen and among them the transcriptions of Auf dem Wasser zu singen, Erlkönig, Ständchen and Ave Maria. But the first three pieces did really not pour from Liszt's pen in Vienna because they were made in summer 1837 in Nohant. The transcription of the Ave Maria did not pour from his pen in Vienna either. It is not to be found in the programs of the concerts because it did not yet exist. It was later made by Liszt for Diabelli. Coming to Walker's p.257, Liszt should have introduced groups of twenty-eight Schubert transcriptions in his four charity concerts. But in the first on April 18 and in the second on Mai 5 he played nothing by Schubert at all. In the third, the "typical" concert p.256, he accompanied Benedikt Randhartinger who sang the Forelle. In the forth on Mai 24, Schuberts Der Gondelfahrer was to be heard. It was not accompanied by Liszt but by Randhartinger. So in contrast to Walker's statement it is to be concluded that Liszt played in his four charity concerts not only no groups but no Schubert transcriptions at all. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.194.39 (talk) 19:57, 19 February 2007 (UTC).

There are two corrections to be made to my last commentary on Walker's p.256.

At first: Moscheles played his concert on January 27 and it was the Gazette musicale of February 11.

At second: Liszt's second charity concert in Vienna was not on Mai 5 but on Mai 6.

Concerning the "Katzenfuge" I took Saffle's Liszt in Germany myself and found that among several hundreds of listed concert programs there is exactly 1 containing the "Katzenfuge" so that the playing of this piece by Liszt may really called a rare exception. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.151.221 (talk) 14:53, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

IPA

Could someone who has any knowledge of IPA provide a transliteration of Franz and Ferenc Liszt? It's a pretty glaring omission in the article.

I know the pronunciation of Liszt, but would Franz be like 'Frans', as if it were something belonging to someone called Fran, 'Fran's apple' if you see what I mean. Or would it be more like 'Frants'? And is the end of Ferenc the same as with French, 'Ferench', or more like 'Ferenk'? I have a feeling it's 'Frants' and 'Ferenk', but I'm not sure enough to have a go at the IPA myself. M A Mason 01:13, 17 February 2007 (UTC)

Liszt and Thalberg

According to Lizt's own statement in his later years Thalberg had been much more succesful in Paris than Liszt himself. Thalberg was also much more succesful in Italy and in England. In spring 1841 after two concerts of Thalberg in Vienna it was said that he was the real leading pianist of the time. Thalberg was admired by Robert Schumann who met him in October 1838 in Vienna, by Clara Wieck/Schumann who played works of him up to 1847, by Felix Mendelssohn Bartholdy, by Hector Berlioz, by Giaccomo Meyerbeer, by Giaccomo Rossini, by Ferdinand Hiller and many many others. To give some examples concerning the money which was earned by Liszt and Thalberg in their concerts Thalberg gave his first own concert in Paris on April 16, 1836. For that concert he got 10000 Francs. Liszt giving concerts in Lyon at the same time got 500 Francs for one concert. In spring 1842 Thalberg gave two concerts in Paris for which he got 12000 Francs and 13000 Francs. Liszt in the beginning of 1846 was happy for an offer to give two concerts in Paris for which he would get altogether 15000 Francs. While it was said that the compositions of Liszt were poor the compositions of Thalberg were liked and played in all Europe. If it is sayed that the compositions of Thalberg were mostly forgotten up to today it would be correct but the same goes for the vast majority of the compositions of Liszt. It would be difficult in fact to find artists who were not delighted by the music of Thalberg in the time around 1840. Liszt with his struggle against Thalberg was an exception of the rarest kind. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.102.54 (talk) 10:31, 17 February 2007 (UTC).

Liszt's transcriptions

Liszt was not the first composer who made piano arrangements of vocal and instrumental scores. There were thousands of arrangements made by many, many other composers and in a long time (several centuries) before Liszt. For his arrangements of Beethoven's 5th, 6th and 7th sinfonies Liszt took a piano arrangement for four hands by Czerny by the way. There were piano arrangements of the sinfonies by Hummel, Kalkbrenner and others in that time. Liszt's arrangements of the 5th and the 6th sinfonies were published in March 1840 and they were not succesful. Without minor exceptions they are hardly ever played today. The same goes for the vast majority of his song transcriptions notwithstanding the beautiful music Liszt made in many of them.

Liszt's "methode"

Liszt's letter to his mother mentioning his "Methode" is not from November but from October 19, 1835. Since it was a methode to be used by the students in Geneva and there were not many greatest pianists who ever lived among them it would have been a rather bad methode if it could really provide "an invaluable insight into the playing style of one of the greatest pianists who ever lived". There is some kind of known methode by Liszt. It is called "Technische Studien" and has been published in three volumes by Editio musica, Budapest. From a practical kind of point of view you could take Alfred Cortot's methode as well. Better results will be gained when using Czerny's Schule des Virtuosen which was studied by Hans von Bülow in his early Weimar years.

Liszt in Dublin

In the diary of Orlando Parry there are the following remarks concerning the concerts given by the group around Lavenu in Dublin: "At 2 this Morning (It is meant the afternoon of January 7, 1841.) 4th concert here, took place at Rotunda as usual. Bad attendance, only about 160 (...) Everything as flat as dish water - no applause, no nothing." and: "5th concert here. It was the Anacreontic Society 2nd Concert, but given in the small room of the Rotunda or Rotundo as they print it here. It was not quite so full as I had anticipated (400) (...) Liszt & Rudersdoff played a piece "Sonata of Beethoven" - 20 minutes long! 'twas dreadful!". In fact the "4th" concert was their first and the "5th" concert their second concert in Dublin. (They had attendend three concerts of other artists the days before.) The "dreadful" sonata should have been the Kreutzer Sonata. After having given two concerts in Limerick they returned to Dublin on January 12th (120 miles!) where they gave two further concerts on January 12th and 13th. It was only the concert on January 13th, a concert of the Philharmonic Society, where they had an audience of at least 1200 people. (The diary of Parry has been published in the Liszt Society Journal in 1981-82.) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 80.144.162.45 (talk) 11:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC).

Liszt's revolutionizing the piano technique

I cannot understand what is exactly meant when saying Liszt would have revolutionized piano technique. At present state there is nothing more to be read that Liszt did something new which was new because it was new but nobody can telll what it was. (For some reasons I am just remembering an old picture which shows Liszt playing a four handed Sonata by Chopin with his left foot only but this was a caricature of course.)