Talk:Twin cities (geographical proximity)

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Early comments

Removed Chicago IL-Gary IN as an example. Gary was founded as an industrial suburb well after Chicago's rise to prominence.

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A little girl from Minneapolis came home from Sunday School with a frown on her face.

"I'm not going back there anymore," she announced with finality. "I don't like the Bible they keep teaching us."

"Why not?" asked her astonished mother.

"Because," said the little girl, "the Bible is always talking about St. Paul, and it never once mentions Minneapolis."

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Budapest should not be listed here. In contrast to the other examples it is one city and an administrative unit, and only in medieval history Buda and Pest were separate cities. -- Cordyph 22:38 Mar 8, 2003 (UTC)

Pest was separate up until 1873. See the entry I made for Pest (city). Milkfish 11:00 Apr 12, 2003 (UTC)

Title capitalization

Shouldn't Twin Cities be moved to twin cities (currently non-existent)? Because it's any twin cities (common noun), not like "The Twin Cities of Buda-Pest" (which can probably not be written with all cap anyway, since it's not an official name and probably nobody calls them like that). --Menchi 08:45 5 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Moved. --Menchi 05:24, 24 Oct 2003 (UTC)

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It's a bit difficult to know what to put in this article, for instance the article mentions Leeds and Bradford and says they don't go together because they have strong separate identities, on the other hand San Diego and Tijuana are paired and they certainly have strong separate identities. London is used as an example but is not listed. What defines a city? If a village is incorporated into a town but locally retains its name though with no legal standing can the pairing be listed? (see Budapest) Bob Palin 04:47, 23 Feb 2004 (UTC)

The examples of "twin cities" on this page are often absurd. ChessPlayer 06:09, 20 May 2004 (UTC)

Defining types of twin cities

Shouldn't we make a distinction between cities that are geographically close and between those that are separated by hundreds of miles? It seems like we are using the term "twin cities" for what is also called "sister cities." And in these cases it's not like the "twin cities" actually bear any relation to each other culturally. So how about separating the list of twin cities into the two types listed at the beginning of the page.

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Hong Kong and Kowloon

Removed Hong Kong and Kowloon from the category-

(From edit summaries) Hong Kong is a twin city by geography, and it fits into the first category. In books as late as the 1960s and 70s, Victoria City or Hong Kong Island and Kowloon are referred as the twin city.

Hong Kong and Kowloon is the same city separated by a harbour. The Kowloon area is developed mostly due to the need for expansion from Hong Kong Island. In fact the Convention of Peking (see Chinese image at [1]) states that the area of Kowloon (then mostly undeveloped) is ceded to the UK is for inclusion into the boundary of British Hong Kong. Development of the same city across a natural boundary should be distinguished from the type of twin cities mentioned in this article where close, distinct cities developed independently and merged together. Otherwise many more cities can be listed here.

By the way the name Victoria (City) is only a historial one and should not be referenced except in historical context. -Hlaw 11:19, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes part of Kowloon south of the Boundary Street was added to the crown colony of Hong Kong in 1860. Nonetheless Kowloon (and later New Kowloon added in 1937) developed as another city until the 1970s, when the cross-harbour tunnel and the MTR was opened. Neither road nor rail connection was available prior to 1970s. The development of Kowloon was not a natural expansion across a natural boundary. And in fact this natural boundary is much wider than other boundaries like rivers. The merge seems more solid only after road and metro connection was available.

Politically Kowloon was an enlargement of the territory of Hong Kong crown colony. But in terms of urban expansion, Kowloon developed on its own until 1970s.

There are books published in the 1960s and 1970s referring the two as twin cities. I don't know if books prior to 1960s uses the term too.

Victoria City is still defined in Hong Kong laws Cap 1 SCHED 1, although urban development has gone beyond the City's boundary. -- anon 15:23, December 7, 2004 (UTC)

Prior to the opening of the cross harbour tunnel, Hong Kong island and Kowloon is simply connected by ferries. The lack of transportation in form of direct road/rail itself does not divide a city into two, nor mean that Kowloon develop on its own. Furthermore, there is a lack of a separate administrative authority in Kowloon. Hong Kong (Victoria city then) and Kowloon had never been on equal footings in the administrative structure.

Some books even regard Hong Kong and Singapore as twin cities. This does not mean that it is proper to list it under the context of the present article.

The provision you quoted are in Schedule 1 of Cap 1 of HK laws, referenced by section 102 and Schedule 9 of Cap 1. They are marked as transistional provisions to facilitate interpretation of old laws not yet adapted under the new constitutional order. Terms such as Governor and Crown are similarly defined for similar purposes. That does not mean that they are proper nowadays. -Hlaw 16:07, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Those books that I was referring to were about the geography of the twin cities. Obviously they're not referring to the same kind of twin cities that means sister cities.

Please refer to Cap 1 SCHED 8 and check which terms should be construed as other meanings after the handover. "Victoria City" and "Kowloon" are not included.

My point is that the sense the term twin cities used in particular books, may not necessarily match the sense of the word used in this article. (Furthermore, Twin cities may sometimes be used in an artistic sense.) The term "victoria city" in Cap 1 Sched 1 is only referenced in Cap 1 Sched 9. Unlike Sched 8 (terms within which are intended to be adapted into new terms after 1997) Sched 9 temporarily keeps old definitions that are to be made redundant in our laws after adaptation of laws, and that are intended be deleted by Secretary for Justice afterwards (by virtue of Cap 1 Section 102). (See the very last paragraph of the explanatory note here.) In other words, not only the term but the concept that it referenced is considered no longer useful under our laws today. -Hlaw 06:50, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The term "twin cities" mentioned in the books that I've read conincides with the definition here in this article.

I think my point has been clearly presented above. Please give more details (book / description of its arguments etc) if it says otherwise. -Hlaw 17:51, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The books were from the library of a secondary school under Geography (which now I have no access to), and some are from the library of a university. Will look up those library catalogues. -- 20:45, December 8, 2004 (UTC)

I don't quite understand why you are saying that the definition of "the City of Victoria" has been made redundant after the handover, and has already been deleted by the SOJ.

Scout, Hong Kong Junior Chamber, and the Rotary still have divisions named Victoria City. -- 07:08, December 8, 2004 (UTC)

You quoted an existing provision in the Laws of Hong Kong which defines Victoria City to argue that name is being used today to refer to the area. I pointed out evidences that the section is intended for temporary use only, listing out defintions to be made redundant pending full adaptation of Hong Kong's law to take into account the new constitutional order, and so is regarded as an obsolete term pending deletion in our law by the Government. Thus both officially and in reality, the term is obsolete for describing the area, not to mention that it should no longer be regarded "capital of Hong Kong" which does not exist under the present consitutional order. Of course this would not prevent organizations which traditionally use this name to refer to one of their branches from continuing to use it. -Hlaw 17:51, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The section is still in use, and haven't been made redundant. And I don't think it would be deleted in the near future. -- 20:45, December 8, 2004 (UTC)

I don't know where of Hong Kong do you come from. I have been staying in Hong Kong and been living on Hong Kong Island for a considerable long time. Perhaps the term Victoria City or the City of Victoria has recently became less popularly known outside of Hong Kong Island, or outside the City's boundary. -- 20:49, December 8, 2004 (UTC)

Please read also my replies at Talk:Victoria City and possibly other related pages. Thank you. -- 20:50, December 8, 2004 (UTC)

Are Victoria City and Kowloon twin cities?

A little research on Google:

• An journal article in 1987 Morton, Brian (1987) "From Conservation To Environmental Education in Hong Kong", New Horizons, no.28, pp.73.86 (Nov 1987)

• An article by a traveller referring Kowloon and Hong Kong Island as twin cities, written in 1995. (By Mr Daisaku Ikeda)

• LegCo proceeding in 1966 referring Victoria and Hong Kong as twin cities on page 13. Pdf format. 'Html' conversion by Google.

• Other LegCo proceedings:
  • 1958
  • 1973, about the cross-harbour tunnel
  • 1975

--21:31, December 8, 2004, UTC

a list showing population statistics of Kowloon and Hong Kong (probably Hong Kong Island) separately.

--13:37, December 9, 2004, UTC

For a topic as clear-cut as defining whether two urban areas are considered independent cities or not, you sually do not even need to rely on google for that kind of basic information. It should be as basic as being easily found on government websites. From the way you had to dig around to substaintiate your claims, it is clear, that this argument is far from being settled, and actually brings up more questions then answers.--Huaiwei 17:32, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Quoted from the article twin cities is "two towns or cities that are geographically close to each other, and often referred to collectively". Victoria City and Kowloon fits into it. Whether or not they are independently administered is not a concern. Many of the cities listed in the article are administered by one single government. Therefore, twin cities here in this article is more a geographical than a political concept. (well yes many are both geographically and politically twin cities.) The term "independent cities" and the statement "as being easily found on government websites" (by Huaiwei) is implying twin cities is a political rather than geographical concept, which is not very true.

The stuffs from Google were just serving as evidence showing Victoria City and Kowloon are recognised as twin cities. Just like the case of Australia for whether it's an island nation or not. -- 17:19, December 9, 2004, UTC

I am not sure how well-versed you are in the field of geography, but when we refer to cities which are "independent cities" in this regard, we are refering to official designation of both urban areas as cities in their own right in EVERY aspect. This does not have to mean they are independently administered, obviously. So long that "Victoria City" and "Kowloon"'s status as "independent cities" are in doubt (or even if they are holding official city status), the idea of them being in this listing is already dubious. I hope you understand what we are getting at here, and not merely about how geographically close they are!--Huaiwei 20:51, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What do you mean by independent cities then? I got confused with the definitions at independent city. How are "official designation in their own right in every aspect" and "independently administered" different from each other? You are adding many whole new definitions for twin cities and city that are not even listed in the articles. Only one city is defined by law in Hong Kong, and Hong Kong has no official definition for cities or towns. But then Kowloon fits into the definition of a city in Geography, and operate as a city. You'd better get a Geography textbook and see what means by a city. j/k -- 21:25, December 9, 2004, UTC

Very funny dude. I dont define cities for you. And honours degree holders in geography dont get a textbook and tell u it defines a city for you, and take it literally. At least that is what I do not do.

As you yourself have mentioned, Hong Kong is defined by law to be only one city. That is the only criterion needed to define the city in this regard, because otherwise, you are picking out neigbourhoods within cities, and threating them like independent cities overnight! Why dont we add Manhattan and Brooklyn as twin cities, based on your definition?--Huaiwei 06:26, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hong Kong is not defined by law as one city. Only the limit one of the cities is stated in law, and that is the City of Victoria. And, "Victoria City" and "Kowloon" are referred to as twin cities, even in official documents such as LegCo proceedings.

Geography or Urban Planning people can tell you what means by a city.

One more note, still you're not telling what do you mean by "independent cities" in your previous comment.-- 08:49, December 10, 2004, UTC

Perhaps we can compromise and compare Victoria City and Kowloon with Buda and Pest. -- 09:24, December 10, 2004, UTC

Not that I want to blow any trumpet, but I happen to be into my honours year for a degree in Geography, with modules on urban planning as well (which was my initial career choice before I change my mind later). I suppose I should be asking myself these questions then?

As I said, telling us there is a demarcation for Victoria city alone dosent mean it is administratively independent from the rest of Hong Kong, nor does it say it is the capital of Hong Kong. I have also explained what I meant be a city which is independent from each other, which you seem to fail to understand. Mind showing us the LegCo documents, btw?--Huaiwei 09:52, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes there's a demarcation for the City of Victoria. I don't think cities which are close to each other would be functioning independent from each other.

The LegCo proceedings are at the top of this thread of discussion. (Obviously you didn't read before you speak :-P)

Alright then. This discussion definitely needs more people to join. I don't think we could compromise, and neither your arguments nor mine convince another.-- 10:50, December 10, 2004, UTC

If cities which are close by, and are functionally linked to each other should be in this link, then lets have a listing of millions of entries. How many times do I need to stress, that a demarcation of the historical boundaries of Victoria City does not make it an independent city entry seperated and distinct from the rest of Hong Kong? I saw the LegCo stuff minutes after I posted a question of where it is. Yeah, obviously I dont find your sources worthy for viewing or consideration, but that is for another discussion. :D Even after I saw them, I remain unconvinced. They look indeed like a case of Budapest, and notice Budapest has been removed from the list? ;)--Huaiwei 14:01, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Kowloon and Victoria City weren't functionally linked to each other. In the early days before there was road and metro connections very few people cross the harbour to go to work or to school every day. Even until now still people prefer not to cross the harbour, tho they're relatively much better connected. And we do have slight different (tho not distinct) identities. Would you mind keep it in the article at the time being, until a real debate (not just you and I) has been done? I don't mind putting a note in the article saying its disputed, or requesting people to refer to the discussion here. -- 15:19, December 11, 2004, UTC

Simple response to your repeated arguments, and which you have failed to address. This lis a contemporary listing of twin cities. Do we care about the "early days" in this regard?--Huaiwei 15:44, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Simple response to your wrong perception of my arguments: Victoria City and Kowloon were twin cities and are twin cities.

This beating round the bush is jus plain irritating. Now you go back to arguing that Hong Kong has two holes in its centre, taken up by Victoria City and Kowloon?--Huaiwei 07:04, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sha Tau Kok, Hong Kong and Shatoujiao, Shenzhen, Guangdong, China (mainland)

Like Beebe Plain (village), Québec/Vermont listed, Sha Tau Kok / Shatoujiao is a town across a border, and was therefore added. -- 17:24, December 9, 2004, UTC

This is getting plain ridiculous. What shall I add next? Woodlands and Johor Bahru? Or why not Ang Mo Kio and Bishan, since both towns are next to each other in Singapore?--Huaiwei 20:59, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What about St. Stephen, New Brunswick - Calais, Maine? --21:32, December 9, 2004, UTC

You dont seem to get my sarcasm. Mind telling us if Sha Tau Kok has just appeared as an independent settlement in its own right distinct from Hong Kong? Or Shatoujiao has become seperated from Shenzhen? As I said above, if you have now taken it as a hobby to start listing neighbourhoods as twin cities, then what shall happen next?--Huaiwei 06:29, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Yes. Sha Tau Kok is a "rural district" of several villages by law, and there's a rural committee with representatives from its villages. Search by Google It's within the territory of the Hong Kong SAR, or within the extend of the Hong Kong metropolitan area.

Shātóujiǎo was a "Zhèn", and is now two "Jiēdàobànshìchù"s, and one of them is called Shātóujiǎo. Source -- 08:53, December 10, 2004, UTC

Please answer my questions the way I asked them. Are Sha Tau Kok and Shatoujiao seperated and distinct from Hong Kong and Shenzhen as cities in their own right today?--Huaiwei 09:58, 10 Dec 2004 (UTC)

What do you mean by "separated and distinct in their own rights"? Seems like my understanding is not like yours. -- 11:01, December 10, 2004, UTC

I can explain if I am using factual content which is not clear, but the above line was in simple English. I am not an English teacher, but I think the it is quite self explainatory. If you could argue, that Woodlands is a distinct city in the Republic of Singapore, then yes, we shall say, that the above two entities exists as distinct cities. Meanwhile, I am removing it from the list.--Huaiwei 14:04, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Could you please be polite and keep it in the article until a real debate by more people (not only you and I) has been done? I don't mind putting a note in the article saying its disputed, or requesting people to refer to the discussion here. -- 15:15, December 11, 2004, UTC

It is plain clear that I am loosing my patience with folks who pretend to be unable to read simple English, and hence insist on sticking to their stands in this. Perhaps I am being way too harsh now, but this is getting very very long drawn out over multiple pages, and contrary to what you say, I am not the only one finding problems with your edits. Interesting debate over Martin Oei, for example.

So long that you fail to proof convincingly whey the entry you listed above qualifies to be here, it will be removed. It is not like we are going to condone having the list cluttered with countless entrees which are under dispute, and end result which will definitely suface once you have your way (coz others are just going to emulate you). This is not about being personal against you. We have to take into account how others are going to infer from your edits, and you setting an undesirable precedent.--Huaiwei 15:48, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You didn't convincingly either refuting why they are not qualified. I've been trying my best to be patient, and to be polite, seems a bit too harsh for myself. But I know I want to have this matter settled, and to know what you are thinking. Definitely simply reverting would be far faster than being 'trapped' in this endless discussion, still I chose to spend time to talk to you. --17:07, December 11, 2004, UTC

Simple. I have been asking you to proof to us that those two entities are seperate and distinct from Hong Kong and Shenzhen. Where is it? On the one hand you claim that you are being magnaminous, patient, and coorperative. On the other hand, you single handedly continue to go round making the same controversial edits. Do you think you deserve our patience and politeness now?--Huaiwei 07:09, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Sha Tau Kok, HK and Shatoujiao, Shenzhen should be “divided cities”. I don't know why there're put here. --Hello World! 16:20, 23 August 2005 (UTC)

North American twin cities

Why "Canada" and "United States" are left out behind the names of cities?

Town twinning vs Twin cities

I put the "merge" label lackig a better one.

A clear cut must be done between the two notions. Let us face it: "twin cities" requires a normal disambiguation, rather than tweaking with article names. I am pretty sure that 80% of links to Twin cities must in fact go to "Twin towning".

A significant part of "Twin cities" must be moved to "town twinning", including a part of the list. Mikkalai 02:04, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

See Talk:Town twinning for further discussion. Eugene van der Pijll 13:06, 12 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Baltimore - Washington???

I have lived in the Baltimore - Washington area my whole life, and other than being two big metro areas, there is nothing in common between the two cities. They are seperated by 45 miles.

I would like someone to point us to a source that specifically shows how the goverments of Baltimore City and the District co-operate and are "Twins"

Just because the airport used to be called BWI (It's now the Thurgood Marshall Baltimore Washington International Airport; What is with this area and long airport names, like the (Ronald) Regan (George) Washington National Airport), that doesn't make them twin cities.

Actually, as a Baltimorean myself, I do think that Baltimore and D.C. are symbiotic, if not twins. They're certainly not twin cities in the sense that most of this article means - they're not next to each other, for one thing. However, "Baltimore-Washington" is an entity in its own right, because their suburbs have merged: picking a random person from Central Maryland, for instance, you wouldn't be able to guess which city they "belonged" to. On the Washington Metro, you see advertisements for housing in Baltimore. The two cities are no longer independent of each other... but they still sort of think they are, so calling them "twin cities" is probably still a stretch. 69.140.12.199 00:45, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

So the more appropriate term would seem to be 'conurbation', but not 'twin city'. -- Adz|talk 01:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)

China

What about Tongzhou and Langfang? --Dpr 03:05, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

Tirunelveli appearing two times in the list

The twin cities of Tirunelveli and Palayamkottai are appearing twice on the list. Either one of these appearences should be removed. It is my humble request that people wishing to edit the Wiki pages go through them properly before adding or deleting content, so as to prevent future issues like this double appearance.

Meanwhile I would like to bring to the notice of Wiki users and editors, that there is another 'twin town' or 'twin village' rather: Keeranipatty-Kuruvikondanpatty in Tamilnadu. While Keeranipatty falls under the Sivagangai district, Kuruvikondanpatty falls under the Pudukottai district. Both are very adjacent to each other and share the same temples and temple ponds. The two villages are just a stone's throw from each other and each village can be easily seen by the other from the two sides of the temple pond. They even share many infrastructure facilities like bus-stop, school, etc. But the people from the two villages are predominantly of different background and don't mingle much (as in the case of people from Cochin-Ernakulam or Hyderabad-Secunderabad or Palayamkottai-Tirunelveli). This can be attributed to the old social circumstances still prevailing in rural India.

I've also seen a few villages like these in Cuddalore district of Tamilnadu, but I'm not able to recollect their names clearly. They have the same names too, except for a change of initials before their village name (initials usually were C for Chidambaram or Cuddalore and B for Bhuvanagiri; the initial was used to denote the village was closer to that town). I feel Wiki users from Chidambaram or Cuddalore area can help to list those 'twin villages' in this list, and make known to the world that India has a lot to offer, be it in software, social development, Wiki content, or spreading peace and prosperity, etc. Jai Hind!

San Francisco - Oakland

I am leaving it, although I am skeptical.

There are cultural differences, and Oakland could be viewed as a seprate city (very distinct center) or a suburb (large SF commuter population), but I am not sure of twin. And if oakland is in there, why not Berkeley, possibly even just Berkeley and Oakland?

• Or for that matter, San Jose, which is larger than either Oakland or 'Frisco, right? I think the Bay Area cities are too far apart, but that also depends on whether you consider Dallas and Fort Worth to be "twin" cities. Wahkeenah 05:26, 30 November 2005 (UTC)

Anaheim - Santa Ana

I am leaving it, although I am skeptical (to quote the above entry)

Orange County has quite a few of these smaller cities that all have run together and Anaheim and Santa Ana don't seem to deserve any special picking-out. I have never before heard them called 'Twin Cities'. Greg 19:32, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

Minneapolis' twin city

St. Anthony was never a different city than Minneapolis. St. Anthony is minneapolis, or, rather, the old name of it. It wasn't a twin city, it is minneapolis Thanatosimii 20:31, 17 May 2006 (UTC)

This is not quite true. As the main article states, St. Anthony and Minneapolis were separate for a time -- the former actually becoming incorporated a year sooner than Minneapolis proper. The two merged in 1872 (see the Minneapolis, MN article). The area north and east of the Mississippi River that is still Minneapolis is the old St. Anthony area (known as NE Minneapolis now). There is also a suburb called St. Anthony, which is not the same as the earlier area (now part of Minneapolis), although it borders this area. In any case, St. Paul is Minneapolis' Twin, not St. Anthony --Rehcsif 20:10, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

Springfield-Hartford!?

Springfield is seperated from Hartford not only by the state border (which would be the point), but by the Longmeadows (culturally and demographically quite different from Springfield) and by several towns in Connecticut. Indeed, much of this area is fairly rural (though not so much as Franklin County where I live. I'm not really clear how this can be considered a twin city.

Hatford and Springfield do form (sort of) a single urban area, a northern branch of the Boston-Washington Urban Corridor and keep trying to strenghten ties, but that's about it.

Springfield and Chicopee or Springfield and West Springfield might be a better combination. Though West Springfield is much smaller and much nicer to visit than Springfield is. Of course, this could be another one of Springfield's attempts at self-promotion, like the "knowledge corridor," but geographically it doesn't make sense. --71.192.116.43 19:45, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

By the notes on Baltimore-Washington:

>"So the more appropriate term would seem to be 'conurbation', but not 'twin city'. -- Adz|talk 01:13, 1 February 2006 (UTC)"<

Applies to Springfield-Hartford as well. --71.192.116.43 19:49, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Deleting the list

This page is in perilous violation of the rules about "original research" on wikipedia. The definition of "twin cities" is not sourced anywhere - it's just completely made up, based on the perceptions of wikipedia editors of what constitutes a set of twin cities. Furthermore, the list is unsourced and is similarly based on editor's opinions of what is and isnt a "twin city". -Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 21:40, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

OK, here's the deal, as nobody wants to discuss this. I'm going to wait another few days, and then I'm going to delete all of the entries on the list that don't have a citation. Currently this is just a list of every city (or town or village) in the world that happens to have another city (or town or village) nearby. Only a small handful of these examples (such as Minneapolis-St. Paul) hold up with sources. Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 18:17, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

I deleted the entire list. If people want to add things back they can do so with sources that clearly identify the example as being a "twin city." As it is right now, the only readily available sources refer to Minneapolis/St Paul. -Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 00:12, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Agree, clean this page up, no sources on anything.Patcat88 (talk) 08:24, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Source

I rediscovered a book which lists city nicknames, including "Twin Cities" and variants: "Nicknames and Sobriquets of U.S. Cities, States, and Counties" by Joseph Nathan Kane and Gerard L. Alexander (Scarecrow, 1991, ISBN 978-0810812550 ). (I've read the 1965 predecessor, and I'm assuming that names in the newer edition are not as obsolete.) Perhaps that can be used to reconstruct a list. Mapsax 19:21, 25 March 2007 (UTC)

Messy article

This article consists almost entirely of a section called "Definition" that doesn't define anything. All it does is say that some cities considered "twin cities" are this way and some are that way. Some are this other way and some are that other way. And by the way, here are some examples of twin cities. And here is some more trivia. And here are some more random examples.

There is no indication of any significant uniting characteristic of twin cities in general that make them worthy of encyclopedic note. Rather, the term appears to be a generic expression applied loosely to various pairs of cities around the world, of no more encyclopedic interest than the phrase "big city" or an article on "famous Susans". Perhaps it would be better placed in Wiktionary. —Largo Plazo 14:18, 18 June 2007 (UTC)

Divided cities

I think ther must be set a strict distinction for "twin cities" wich did not grow together from two different city, but, on the opposite way, originally there was one city which was divided (usually by newly created state borders). E.g. from this list Gornja Radgona was originally a part of the Austrian Bad Radkersburg and the two cities were divided by the Austrian - Yugoslavian (Kingdom of Serbia-Croatia-Slovenia those days) border in 1919. It's the same story for Zgorzelec/Görlitz, Tesin/Cieszyn, and (which is not listed) Frankfurt/Slubice. There are lots of examples in Central Europe where new borders that did not have any historical traditions were drawn to the maps after World War I often using geographical objects such as rivers as new state border - even if these new borders divided cities, towns and villages. Attus (talk) 12:04, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree that divided cities don't belong under this definition and should be a separate entry. As an alternative, the definition could be revised. I might add that the divided cities of Zgorzelec/Görlitz and Frankfurt/Slubice are the result of WW II, not WW I. Another major example of a divided city after WW II is Berlin (1949-1990). --82.135.32.38 (talk) 12:58, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Springfield - Shelbyville NOT

Springfield and Shelbyville are not twin cities according to the definition provided in the article. I am removing the reference.

Clearer definitions needed

There needs to be a clear, objective definition of what we're talking about in this article. What are the criteria for something being a twin city? Here are some problematic inclusions on the list:

• In the text, Budapest is mentioned as the most famous example. Is Budapest still a twin city? It's one city merged from two.
• Dallas-Ft. Worth is mentioned, but the cities are not even contiguous, and generally people use DFW to refer to the entire Dallas/Fort Worth Metroplex area, including Arlington, Denton, Plano, etc. Is being contiguous a requirement? If not, what about cities like Seattle-Tacoma, Miami-Ft. Lauderdale, or New York-Newark?
• Fort Erie, Ontario and Buffalo, New York is listed, but Buffalo/Niagara Falls is not, even though they share the same airport and transportation system[2]. Buffalo and Ft. Erie are connected by a single bridge.

--Torc2 20:55, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Citations Citations Citations

Lets try to find examples of someone referring to two cities as "Twin Cities" at least locally. For example, Lewiston, Maine and Auburn, Maine are often called "The Twin Cities" (google Lewiston Auburn Twin Cities and you find lots of press articles and official websites mentioning such. Cambridge, Massachusetts and Somerville, Massachusetts are definitely not, google them and Twin Cities and you find mentions of tanning salons near the border that are called Twin Cities.

SO: Find a good citation, and link it as an example after the entry. Something in the press, from a major institution (a college, etc) or on an official city website. Don't just put any podunk town down because the town next door is called West Podunk.

Oh, and if a pair has a Wikipedia article (the Twin Cities, the Twin Ports) it's hunky dory.

Ofsevit (talk) 00:42, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Kitchener, Waterloo, and Guelph?

I thought the tri-cities were Kitchener, Waterloo, and Cambridge. How does Guelph figure into things? --  timc  talk   05:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

List delete

Can someone explain to me why we shouldn't delete the lists on this page? They are all unsourced and only a few examples are even capable of being sourced. -Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 21:21, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, please go ahead and delete all unsourced entries. 92.40.65.183 (talk) 16:56, 22 August 2009 (UTC)

At least in my area, the lists are complete and accurate, so why delete that? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Edbrown05 (talk • contribs) 04:36, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Resistance to merging

This page needs a ton of work. I just deleted this section:

Resistance to merging

Bloomington and Normal, Illinois have always rebuffed any merger referendum, and where the original boundary is named "Division Street". In England, the cities of Leeds and Bradford are very close, but have strong separate identities and would not see themselves as part of the same entity. Both cities have individual cathedrals and councils, as well as having separate sports teams.

Division Street is a very common street name in the U.S. and elsewhere. The info on Leeds and Bradford is unsourced and really irrelevant. innotata Talk Contribs 17:45, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

One more example

How about Ottawa, Ontario and Hull, Quebec?

It seems like one of the more obvious ones to me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 168.7.210.51 (talk) 14:54, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Border towns arent twin cities with themselves

If a two towns that are fairly close to each other but are relatively independent grow into each other, then you could say they are twinned. But surely if a single town is founded on or near a border, and the growth of the town means some suburbs, or even the main business district of the town is now on the other side of the border, surely it is still one town. The parts of the town over the border are not twinned with itself. A state line through a town doesnt automatically create twins. Newark is not a twin of New York. So I'm having trouble with the constant reference of Bristol TN/VA being referred to as a twin city of itself. Surely a requiste of a twin is that they have different names! 210.7.132.80 (talk) 02:52, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

defining cities

Many of the British examples do not fit the definition of a city, having neither a charter, the legal definition or a Cathedral the older, traditional definition.

Vienna and Bratislava

There is almost 40 km of more or less unpopulated place between Vienna and Bratislava (unlike Ulm and Neu-Ulm or Radgona and Gornja Radgona which are sepreated by a river, or Gorica nad Nova Gorica which are merely separated by an (artificial) state border), so they can not really form a twin city if you'd ask me. --Smihael (talk) 20:51, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Does the source answer your question now? --Irmingard 07:44, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps the main definition needs broadening

... If only because in wide usage, places like Bristol Tennessee/Virginia or Texarkana Texas/Arkansas are widely described as "Twin cities". I agree that the list needs to be properly managed, but if cities like that are specifically excluded, then the article does not itself properly represent the full usage of the term "twin city". I would rather that fixed the lead to include cities in close geographic proximity even if they share a name, since practice in the world does that too. Consider Here which shows how the two Bristols are called "Twin Cities" and here shows same for Texarkana. I agree the article needs to be consistent, but I think we address the consistancy by representing what the world outside of Wikipedia considers to be "twin cities" and not what we want them to be; if that means fixing the lead to include cities like the two Bristols or the two Texarkanas, then we should do that rather than remove cities from the list that a plethora of other sources calls Twin Cities. --Jayron32 23:22, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

I agree, maybe we should step away from the "geographical proximity only" definition and make it a broader one to include twin cities like Vienna and Bratislava. --Irmingard 07:58, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Kansas City

Surely Kansas City, Missouri, and Kansas City, Kansas should be included in the North America section? Rcsprinter (state) @ 12:18, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

No, Kansas City is a single-core city split over a state line. And even if you were to consider KCK to have had a separate identity historically, you'd have to grant the same to North Kansas City, and probably Independence. But if we're extending the definition that far, pretty much substantial community in human history would be eligible for this list. In general this list needs pruning, not expansion. — ˈzɪzɨvə (talk) 13:03, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I also believe not. The name of Kansas City, Kansas causes a lot of confusion. It is a suburb on par with Independence. It was settled nearly fifty years after Kansas City, Missouri and doesn't match the economic, historic, and cultural prominence of Independence, Missouri or Overland Park, Kansas (though no so much on the history there). You'll notice it is only the third largest city in the metro area and only makes it that far because of a fairly recent city-county consolidation this article explains some of the history a little deeper than the usual municipal government website might but it is by no means academic. Grey Wanderer (talk) 03:39, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Demonym?

Is there a general demonym for a resident of twin cities? Having previously lived in Minneapolis/St. Paul, I've frequently heard "Twin Citian" but I'm not sure if that is only used locally. 2620:0:1000:330A:1260:4BFF:FE68:1D1D (talk) 21:27, 2 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2014

• Hubli and Dharwad, India

Harshu625 (talk) 08:06, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cite reliable sources to back up your request, the "reference" you have added is meaningless. - Arjayay (talk) 10:04, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Done per Hubli-Dharwad and this. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 10:11, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: It's already present in the article. — LeoFrank  ^Talk 10:13, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 June 2014

• Guntur and Vijayawada, India

Harshu625 (talk) 08:07, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have not cited reliable sources to back up your request, the "reference" you have added is meaningless. - Arjayay (talk) 10:05, 14 June 2014 (UTC)