Talk:Kate Forbes
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Kate Forbes article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
Article policies
|
Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL |
![]() | This article is of interest to multiple WikiProjects. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
Please add the quality rating to the {{WikiProject banner shell}} template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
|
First woman to present a budget?
I do not think this warrants a paragraph as a genuine feminist first milestone. The Finance secretary Derek Mackay resigned on the day of the budget speech and Kate, as a junior finance minister working for Mackay, was asked at the last minute to read out the prepared budget speech rather than the government cancelling the budget. Whilst I agree she read it out very nicely I do not think that it warrants as a true first female to present the Scottish budget as she was not the Finance secretary. I agree that this event has boosted her political career prospects hugely but, as a former trainee accountant age 29, she did not design the budget or compose the speech but was merely asked to read it out. Whilst she did present the budget by reading it, in this context the word 'present' implies the speaker is the Finance minister (similar to the Chancellor of the Exchequer in England who 'presents' their budget) Update: Subsequently Kate has been appointed Finance secretary so my above comment is rather pedantic. I notice that she qualified as an accountant in Oct 2016, over a year after she became an MP so I don’t think my ‘trainee accountant’ description was inaccurate though it may now seem rather derogatory. Andrew ranfurly (talk) 14:49, 12 February 2020 (UTC)
A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion
The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:
Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:07, 30 June 2021 (UTC)
Somebody deleted Political Views?
Why? There seemed to be no reason. Scientelensia (talk) 09:55, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Wikpedia is not a commentary on selective positions taken by an individual politician. Inclusion of select views in POV. See WP:NOTEVERYTHING. Sparkle1 (talk) 11:24, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- There were no POVs… Scientelensia (talk) 11:34, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- The content of the presentation of the positions taken itself may not have been POV but the choice to only include the positions listed is POV Sparkle1 (talk) 11:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Then add more positions instead of deleting those you disagree with! It’s really quite simple and there’s no reason to simply deprive viewers of relevant content. Scientelensia (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- That is not how things work around Wikipedia, I suggest reading the Wikipage linked to earlier as this is not a collection of everything under the sun. It is not a case of me personally agreeing or disagreeing with them, and I ask you to strike those claims. It is about ensuring there is no selective inclusion. Inclusion of everything under the sun is not the counteraction to selective inclusion. Removal is the counteraction, as it keeps the article focused and prevents long unwieldy articles which are a repository of everything ever uttered by a politician. There are websites such as TheyWorkForYou which already do that. Wikipedia is not that. See WP:Not. Sparkle1 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Why did you wish to deprive the viewers of seeing relevant info? Scientelensia (talk) 11:55, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- That is not how things work around Wikipedia, I suggest reading the Wikipage linked to earlier as this is not a collection of everything under the sun. It is not a case of me personally agreeing or disagreeing with them, and I ask you to strike those claims. It is about ensuring there is no selective inclusion. Inclusion of everything under the sun is not the counteraction to selective inclusion. Removal is the counteraction, as it keeps the article focused and prevents long unwieldy articles which are a repository of everything ever uttered by a politician. There are websites such as TheyWorkForYou which already do that. Wikipedia is not that. See WP:Not. Sparkle1 (talk) 11:54, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Then add more positions instead of deleting those you disagree with! It’s really quite simple and there’s no reason to simply deprive viewers of relevant content. Scientelensia (talk) 11:45, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- The content of the presentation of the positions taken itself may not have been POV but the choice to only include the positions listed is POV Sparkle1 (talk) 11:43, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- There were no POVs… Scientelensia (talk) 11:34, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
I have no idea what that is supposed to mean. Wikipedia is not a news or current affairs tracker. Sparkle1 (talk) 11:59, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Let me explain to you – information or quotes provided by or seen on the news in this case helps us to gain a better understanding of the person involved. Here, owing to the news as you say, we know Forbes’ position in abortion, Scottish independence and transgender rights. Many people will be deciding whether to vote for this person in the future and I would think they would want to know where she stands in key issues.Scientelensia (talk) 12:02, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- All of these are selective inclusions and it is not for Wikipedia or Wikipedia editors to provide "a better understanding of the person involved". Wikipedia is to provide neutral encyclopedic articles on individual article subjects which are notable. The "a better understanding of the person involved" is straying dangerously close to advocating for Original Research, which is outright banned on Wikipedia. "Many people will be deciding whether to vote for this person in the future and I would think they would want to know where she stands in key issues" This violates the key tenants of Wikipedia as that would mean turning Wikipedia into a campaign platform which is clearly not the purpose of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not in the business of helping voters decide who and how to vote. Wikipedia is for providing encyclopedia articles on subjects which are notable and meet the inclusion criteria. Sparkle1 (talk) 12:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Your logic is flawed, again. Please tell me what about the edits you thought were not neutral. Putting somebody’s views on Wikipedia where relevant is clearly not campaigning, or to use one of your phrases, “POV PUSHING”. Instead, they offer more information to find out about a person. Here are some links to prove to you that political positions and views are known to be useful especially when concerning a politician. Need I really have to say more?
- Boris Johnson#Political positions and ideology
- Jeremy Corbyn#Policies and views
- Piers Corbyn#Promotion of conspiracy theories
- Ed Miliband#Policies and views
- Gamal Abdel Nasser#Pan-Arabism and socialism
- If you would like, I will take this dispute to the relevant committee and ask a third person to judge. Scientelensia (talk) 12:16, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- All of these are selective inclusions and it is not for Wikipedia or Wikipedia editors to provide "a better understanding of the person involved". Wikipedia is to provide neutral encyclopedic articles on individual article subjects which are notable. The "a better understanding of the person involved" is straying dangerously close to advocating for Original Research, which is outright banned on Wikipedia. "Many people will be deciding whether to vote for this person in the future and I would think they would want to know where she stands in key issues" This violates the key tenants of Wikipedia as that would mean turning Wikipedia into a campaign platform which is clearly not the purpose of Wikipedia. Wikipedia is not in the business of helping voters decide who and how to vote. Wikipedia is for providing encyclopedia articles on subjects which are notable and meet the inclusion criteria. Sparkle1 (talk) 12:10, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
It is time to disengage here. It is futile to continue this as it is clear that this not going to be resolved. If you wish to take this further please use the dispute resolution process. The selective number of articles presented do not mean that they are precedential or even in compliance. There may be overriding reasons for the inclusion of these issues in the articles of Prime Ministers and Party leaders. I am not engaging in a general debate on other articles here. Plesse escalate this if you wish to take this further using the dispute resolution process. Sparkle1 (talk) 12:21, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- Ok thank you, I will take this further using the dispute resolution process. Scientelensia (talk) 12:26, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
![]() |
Hello Scientelensia and Sparkle1. I am responding to the third opinion request in this matter. Having reviewed the edits in question and your discussion, my third opinion is that the disputed material regarding political views should be included in the article. The material is highly relevant to the subject of the article. Citations are from appropriate secondary sources not primary sources. The material is relatively short and the discussion constrained - it does not make the article overly long, nor is it indiscriminate. The material does not violate the policy in WP:NOTEVERYTHING. The material is written in an encyclopedic tone and does not push a point of view or seem to campaign for the politician; rather the politician's actions and positions speak for themselves. If there is a concern that only certain encyclopedically-relevant views of the politician have been picked, the correct remedy in this instance is to add further material. For these reasons, my view is that you should include the material. I hope these perspectives assist you in a collegial resolution of the issue. JArthur1984 (talk) 14:09, 7 January 2023 (UTC) |
- Ok, thank you! We will act on your decision and advice. Thanks for getting back to us so quickly :) Scientelensia (talk) 14:18, 7 January 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with the view expressed by JArthur984 and support the reinstatement of the material. Sweet6970 (talk) 10:43, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- I'm happy with reinstating the section, but her saying at a prayer that treatment of the unborn necessitates an 'anti-abortion' statement (or categorised as her political view) is an overreach. --SgtLion (talk) 11:40, 15 February 2023 (UTC)
- I agree with the view expressed by JArthur984 and support the reinstatement of the material. Sweet6970 (talk) 10:43, 8 January 2023 (UTC)
- C-Class biography articles
- C-Class biography (politics and government) articles
- Low-importance biography (politics and government) articles
- Politics and government work group articles
- WikiProject Biography articles
- C-Class WikiProject Women articles
- All WikiProject Women-related pages
- WikiProject Women articles
- C-Class Women in Business articles
- Low-importance Women in Business articles
- WikiProject Women in Business articles
- C-Class Scotland articles
- Low-importance Scotland articles
- All WikiProject Scotland pages
- C-Class Gender studies articles
- Low-importance Gender studies articles
- WikiProject Gender studies articles
- C-Class law articles
- Low-importance law articles
- WikiProject Law articles
- C-Class United Kingdom articles
- Low-importance United Kingdom articles
- WikiProject United Kingdom articles
- C-Class Politics of the United Kingdom articles
- Low-importance Politics of the United Kingdom articles
- Wikipedia articles that use Scottish English