Talk:Sergei Bortkiewicz

Name

I think he isn't Sergei; his ukranian name is Serhiy. Please sy move it, who knows how to do that.

Nothing

Thank you:Ferike333 (talk) 08:09, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Copyright Issue

The text of this article is almost exactly identical (word for word) to that of the introduction to Bortkiewicz in an 2002 album I own, "Sergei Bortkiewicz, Pianoworks, playedby Klaas Trapman". That introduction is signed by Dr. W. M. A. Kalkman. So it seems that the wikipedia page has been mostly copied from this album, possibly infringing copyrights. 2001:985:7790:1:39B7:5E4F:BFC:FE6B (talk) 12:27, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Edit war regarding Countries of Bortkiewicz' Heritage

It appears that there has been an edit war regarding what countries Bortkiewicz is associated with. Concerningly, it appears that @Michael Aurel, @2a02:1748:dd5c:fa40:bc1a:9343:8688:241e, and @CurryTime7-24 all performed multiple reverts this year without ever adding a new topic on this talk page.

At issue is the phrase "Russian-born Austrian" in the first sentence of the article. @CurryTime7-24 cited MOS:ETHNICITY when introducing this language. However, MOS:ETHNICITY disfavors the use of the country of birth in the lead: "Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability." The example provided is that Arnold Schwarzenegger should be called "Austrian and American", not "Austrian-born American".

However, this leaves the important question of whether Bortkiewicz should be described as Ukrainian, Russian, both, or something else. I don't see any convincing arguments either way in the RFEs. Given the scale of the current edit war, it's important to establish community consensus. I'm soliciting the help of WP:Wikiproject Ukraine and Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia/Performing arts in Russia task force.

Also involved in the edit war is the place names. Specifically, there is not a clear consensus on whether Ukrainian names (Kharkiv, Artemivka, and possibly Skorokhodove) or Russian names (Kharkov, Artiomovka) should be used, in a region that was unquestionably subject to both Russian and Ukrainian linguistic influence throughout Bortkiewicz' life. 167.102.146.19 (talk) 20:24, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

The citation from The New Grove Dictionary of Music and Musicians states that Bortkiewicz was an "Austrian pianist and composer of Russian origin". Later in the same article, it mentions that "at the outbreak of World War I he returned to Russia, but was forced to emigrate in 1919". Edits that contradicted the source were reverted. Such reversions are not considered "edit warring" per WP:EW ("reverting to enforce certain overriding policies is not considered edit warring" and "reverting vandalism is not edit warring").

Alternative transliterations of place names are used when chronologically appropriate (see WP:KIEV). Note that this isn't exclusive to articles pertaining to Russia or the Ukraine. For example, the birthplace of E. T. A. Hoffmann is referred to in his article as Königsberg, not its modern name of Kaliningrad. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 20:51, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

He was from the country of Ukraine, in a period when it was colonized by the Russian empire. There is a tendency in recent sources to recognize this, and a rejection of the colonial attitude about Ukraine that was common in twentieth-century academia (some background). For example, several sources and art museums have renamed Degas’s Ukrainian dancers, and reclassified “Russian” artists Ivan Aivazovskyi, Davyd Burliuk, Oleksandra Ekster, Kazymyr Malevych, Mykola Murashko, Mykola Pymonenko, Illia Riepin, and other artists from Ukraine by recognizing their country of origin, or by describing their identity in more detail, regarding ancestry, citizenship, places of birth and professional activity, &c.

The traditional classification of everything good from Russian-colonized Ukraine as simply “Russian” represents an obsolete imported WP:BIAS and we should not just parrot it or blindly accept voices that advocate for its preservation.

Bortkiewicz was from Ukraine. You may write “Ukraine, Russian Empire,” if it pleases you, but there’s no reason to obscure the country as it was called at that time and still is today (it was also called by the deprecated and offensive synonym “Little Russia”). He was educated in part in Russia, but he was professionally active in Austria, Ukraine, Germany, Türkiye, and elsewhere.  —Michael Z. 22:01, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It's possible for people of other nationality to be born on the territory of another country, especially since the country wasn't even existing at that time. Marcelus (talk) 22:22, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Right. Ukraine didn’t exist, according to the decree of Piotr Valuev, and the name “Ukraine” was an empty placeholder that imperial censors banned from use for no reason. The country, complete with tens of millions of Ukrainians and their language were brought into existence by a divine miracle in 1918, immediately after Lenin signed the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, recognizing Ukraine’s independence and borders. Thanks for the reminder, brother.  —Michael Z. 03:37, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Valuev is irrelevant in this case. Central Ukraine was a part of the Russian Empire, that's a fact. Marcelus (talk) 05:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it was. Thank you for acknowledging the fact.  —Michael Z. 13:01, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Bortkiewicz was born a Russian citizen; there was no country of Ukraine at the time. He was an ethnic Pole, if anything, but per MOS:ETHNICITY this should not be mentioned in the lead unless it is somehow part of what makes a subject notable. So Garibaldi, for example, who fought for Italian independence and was a central figure in its modern history, is referred to in his article as Italian, even though he was actually born a French citizen. However, Bortkiewicz never played any vital role in the history of Poland, Ukraine, Austria, or Russia for that matter. Even within the history of music his influence was, at best, marginal.

WP:BIAS, by the way, cuts both ways. Just because one is from a country that historically tends to strongly dislike another country, at least politically, does not give one the right to alter facts in order to flatter their pet political beliefs.

Returning to MOS:ETHNICITY, it also states "ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability. Similarly, neither previous nationalities nor the country of birth should be mentioned in the lead unless relevant to the subject's notability". In other words, if the lead merely mentioned that he was Austrian or omitted mention of his citizenships altogether, that would be OK too. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 22:42, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus to no longer mention Bortkiewicz as Russian, so I went ahead and made the edit. This discussion is still open for others to weigh in, and I still approach this with an open mind.

(Required disclosure, my IP address changed. I opened the topic as 167.102.146.19. Maybe I should register for an account to keep this from happening.) 134.192.8.17 (talk) 23:12, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

You refer to reversions that are acceptable according to policy as "edit warring", insinuate that I'm in some anti-Ukraine conspiracy with two other editors I've never even talked to, and you seem to have a personal grudge if your remark about consensus forming against "me" (as if I had anything to do with SB being born in Russia) is any indication. So much for "open mind".

Your familiarity with policy, unusual for a new IP user, and this article in particular suggests that you may be using more than one account without disclosure, but I'll leave that for others to decide. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 01:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

In my topic opening I mentioned you and two other editors who were violating WP:EDITWAR. One of them was excessively reverting to indicate that Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian, and the other was excessively reverting to indicate that Bortkiewicz was Russian. It's important to recognize that WP:CIVILITY applies to all sides in a conflict, and it could be harmful and divisive to call out only the uncivil behavior from one perspective.

I appreciate your kind words about my understanding of policy. I am always trying to improve. My use is fully compliant with WP:GOODSOCK. I also will leave that for others to decide.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 13:09, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

It appears that there is consensus to no longer mention Bortkiewicz as Russian, that's incorrect. Marcelus (talk) 06:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Why? With due respect for WP:NOTDEMOCRACY, you are the only user so far who apparently disagrees. We can only incorporate your interests if you support your reasoning for your claim that "Bortkiewcz's national affiliations are relevant to his biography."

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 12:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

My impression is different Marcelus (talk) 13:03, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Of course there was a country of Ukraine. Consult “Country” and “State” for a reminder of the difference. It was Bortkiewicz’s country of origin, for those who can conceive of countries beyond a nineteenth-century imperial model. That’s why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, or describe him as Ukrainian-born.[1][2][3][4][5][6][7][8]  —Michael Z. 03:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure the first five sources are deep enough. Some of these sources merely mention Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian or from Ukraine, without forming a deeper analysis of his national identity. In the same way that the Grove encyclopedia's mere mention of Bortkiewicz as Russian does not end our analysis, the mere mention of Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian in other reliable sources does not end our analysis.

The sixth source seems to conduct a musical analysis and conclude that "it can be said that S. Bortkiewicz is really representative of the Ukrainian culture".

The seventh source does not seem to support your conclusion. Page 7 says, "Niemożliwe, aby identyfikował się również z narodem ukraińskim, gdyż państwo to powstało praktycznie dopiero w XX wieku." (It is impossible for him to identify himself with the Ukrainian nation, as this state has practically only been established in the twentieth century.) I don't accept the logic from this quote. You have provided excellent argument that there was a Ukrainian country, nation, or state around this time, but source 7 does not support your logic that Bortkiewicz was Ukrainian.

I don't see how source 8 supports your case - the frank reality is that it seems to oppose it. Source 8 says on (p. i), "Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but considered himself Russian." (I'm hesitant to accept this statement at face value because the article does mention any unambiguous statements from Bortkiewicz considering himself Russian.) I think the strongest evidence casting doubt on Bortkiewicz' Ukrainian identity is that he called Kharkiv "Little Russia" and "South Russia" (p. 16), terms which you acknowledged are offensive to Ukraine. However, source 8 also notes (p. 26), "Russians considered him Polish, because of his mother’s heritage." This casts doubt in Bortkiewicz' Russian identity. Source 8 also mentions the significant Russian influences in Bortkiewicz' music, which Source 6 does not acknowledge.

MOS:ETHNICITY does not address which specific factors form a person's nationality. However, it is firm that a country of a subject's birth and childhood cannot be a sole factor in determining that person's nationality. The argument that Kharkiv was Ukraine is moot because this was just the "where" and not the "who". It does not establish whether Bortkiewicz himself identified as Polish, Ukrainian, Russian, or something else. I'm beginning to lean toward using the style of Copernicus from MOS:ETHNICITY and omitting from the lead any references to Bortkiewicz as Ukrainian, Russian, or Polish, possibly describing him as only Austrian if there is consensus that he should still be considered Austrian.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 14:57, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Bortkiewcz's national affiliations are relevant to his biography. They should not be removed from the lead. Marcelus (talk) 06:02, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for the friendly edit removing "born".

Reverting to enforce overriding policies cannot be a sole factor determining that action is not an edit war. If it were, good faith editors could engage in limitless reverts based on their good faith belief that they are enforcing the policies. Although you considered the edits you reverted to be good faith, I don't see any RFE or talk post explaining the reason for your edit, other than mentioning MOS:ETHNICITY in your first revert. WP:EDITWAR guides, "When reverting, be sure to indicate your reasons. This can be done in the edit summary and/or talk page." You reverted four edits, from four different accounts, considering Bortkiewicz Ukrainian in the lead. Certainly, starting with your second revert, it would have been helpful to write a more lengthy RFE or talk page post about why you believed MOS:ETHNICITY to support your edit. Otherwise, it may begin to appear that consensus is being formed against you.

Unlike Königsberg, I'm not sure that the Russian name Kharkov was officially exclusive of the Ukrainian name Kharkiv, at least not before the 1917 Russian Revolution, when Bortkiewicz was already 40.

Since you mention "the Ukraine", please see WP:DONTUSETHE. That term is associated with the Russian perspective. 134.192.8.17 (talk) 22:40, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

I just realized my IP address switched. I'm actually the original poster who previously edited as 167.102.146.19. I apologize for the confusion and I'm not trying to create a false appearance of consensus. 134.192.8.17 (talk) 22:56, 8 August 2023 (UTC)

Arbitrary break

I saw a request for input at Russia and Ukraine Wikiprojects. I think that saying that he was Russian or Ukrainian is misleading as the reader can understand that this was his ethnicity, which is obviously not true, since he was Polish.

I would rephrase is as "a composer of Polish origin who was born in Russian Empire (modern Ukraine) and lived most of his life in Austria." Alaexis_¿question? 11:29, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Although this proposed first sentence does not comply with the guidelines of MOS:ETHNICITY, I'm prepared to accept it anyway because it seems like an appealing WP:COMPROMISE. The facts in this proposed first sentence don't seem to be disputed by anyone: Bortkiewicz had Polish origin, was born in the Russian Empire, was born in what is now Ukraine, and lived most of his life in Austria. This avoids the need to call Bortkiewicz Russian or Ukrainian. Clearly, these are divisive labels, and I'm not sure either label is supported by facts. In my opinion, this proposed first sentence is not excessively wordy, and it lays out the undisputed facts for the reader without jumping to a conclusion about Bortkiewicz' nationality. This seems closest to the Copernicus example on MOS:ETHNICITY, but if the community can't agree on this form of a first sentence, it may be better to follow more closely in the steps of the Copernicus example and omit all references to Russian, Ukrainian, or Polish ethnicity or ties in the lead, and instead refer to him either as simply Austrian, or no ethnicity at all.

(Also used 134.192.8.17 and 167.102.146.19) 50.169.82.253 (talk) 12:38, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

The references I cited above don’t say “modern Ukraine” or “what is now Ukraine.” They say Ukraine, Ukrainian, or Ukrainian-born. Your WP:SYNTH formulation presents Ukraine as some kind of later invention, which is a theme in Russian fascism but not in reliable sources about Bortkiewicz.  —Michael Z. 12:59, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

@Mzajac The sources you point to do not identify Bortkiewicz as a "Ukrainian" artist. Moreover, some of them even say the opposite.

"The New Criterion" describes him as a "Ukrainian-born Polish composer" ([9]).

Jeremiah A. Johnson's Echoes of the Past: Stylistic and Compositional Influences in the Music of Sergei Bortkevich ([10]) puts it bluntly: Sergei Bortkiewicz (1877-1952), remains relatively unknown. Bortkiewicz was born and raised near Kharkov, Ukraine, but consideredhimself Russian. (p. i) and It would seem that a composer from Kharkov, Ukraine, undoubtedly would employ the use of Ukrainian folk music and localized folk elements in his music; however, Bortkiewicz rarely acknowledged Ukraine in his own writings and compositions. Throughout his career, he continuously referenced his own pieces with the label “Russian,” (...) In fact, any mention of Ukraine in Bortkiewicz’s Recollections appears quite tangentially. Here is one of the few such occurrences: “I spent the summer (as before in earlier years) on our estate ‘Artiomowka,’ 24 kilometers from the city of Charkow [Kharkov]. We thus lived in Little-Russia, in the so-called Ukraine. A beautiful country with fertile lands.” (p. 5) or The Bortkiewicz family owned a nice estate and land in Artiomowka, about fifteen kilometers from Kharkov, yet Bortkiewicz continually referenced Kharkov as “Little Russia” or “South Russia.” Bortkiewicz noted from his early childhood that Kharkov was regarded as the intellectual center of South Russia (p. 18). Also on the page 26: In a letter dated April 21, 1933, Bortkiewicz wrote to Hugo van Dalen: “Although I have a good reputation in Germany, I still am a ‘foreigner’ and now one is looked upon very unfavorably if one is not a genuine German, and there are even fewer opportunities for any position.” Bortkiewicz seemed to be an outsider wherever he went. Russians considered him Polish, because of his mother’s heritage. In addition, Russians were also looked down upon at the time in Germany and Austria, due to the behavior of Soviet troops abroad and heightened tensions after the war. So there is no question of the artist's Ukrainian origin, or that he considered himself or other people to be Ukrainian.

You also refer to a Polish source ([11]), which states clearly: Today no one is also able to determine whether this artist identified himself with the Polish nation, because even if he did, he could not articulate this publicly. It is impossible that he also identified with the Ukrainian nation, since that state was practically created only in the 20th century. (p. 99)

Did you not study these links at all before inserting them? Are you able to point out that any of these sources say what you claim? Or are you simply providing as many sources as possible just to force acceptance of your version hoping that no one will verify their content?

It is quite easy for you to accuse others of "fascism" and other low motives, but it seems to me that you are the one who should reconsider your behavior, the way you edit and the way you conduct discussions. Marcelus (talk) 13:33, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Yes, it says he was born in Ukraine, not “in modern Ukraine,” not “in what is now Ukraine.”

I did not accuse anyone, just pointed out how their baseless synthetic phrasing can be perceived.  —Michael Z. 13:41, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

You said: "That's why some reliable sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, or describe him as Ukrainian-born," after which you provided several links to sources. Can you clearly indicate which of these sources state his nationality as Ukrainian, and which describe him as Ukrainian-born?

Because my verification indicates that you tried to mislead the participants in the discussion. I ask that you respond to this. Your behavior qualifies to be reported to the appropriate noticeboard. Marcelus (talk) 13:53, 9 August 2023 (UTC)