Talk:Elgin Marbles

Title should be changed to Parthenon sculptures

the title 'Elgin marbles' is controversial and insulting for many people and scholars. According to most researchers, Elgin has actually damaged the Parthenon temple in order to extract the decorative marble sculptures and he sold them to British Museum after a very short period. The conditions under which Elgin removed the sculptures are at least nefarious; no original Ottoman firman has been produced to this day to legitimise Elgin's actions. therefore it is not reasonable to continue to call them Elgin's. Regardless, these are sculptures, not marbles (marble is a material). I propose to rename the article to Parthenon sculptures as is the norm among classicist scholars and redirect 'Elgin marbles' to the same wikipage. Ipodamos (talk) 23:38, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

There is a difference between the Elgin Marbles, ie the marbles acquired by Elgin, and sculptures from the Parthenon. The article explains the difference. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:00, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

The difference is actually erroneous and is not backed up by the literature. There is no such thing as marbles and sculptures: they are all sculpted marble pieces. Also, the part about the drowning of Elgin's ship with the sculptures on his first trip from Athens is missing: this is a crucial piece of the history of the sculptures. Ipodamos (talk) 00:05, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

sinking* not drowning Ipodamos (talk) 00:06, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no such thing as ships drowning. You need consensus for your changes. Please see Wikipedia:BOLD, revert, discuss cycle. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:08, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

thank you for pointing out that ships are not drowning. Ipodamos (talk) 00:13, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

To reach consensus, I guess I have to convince you to address all marbles as sculptures as a beginning: do you disagree or you think that a material describes perfectly well these pieces of art? Ipodamos (talk) 00:16, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Have a look at the Further Reading section of this article and you will see that in English it is common to refer to ancient sculptures as marbles. It's a bit old fashioned but is still in use, especially for the Elgin Marbles. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Aemilius: Absolutely, this terminology is quite outdated and has mainly persisted in usage within the UK. I'm curious whether this Wikipedia page is accessible solely to readers in the UK or if it's intended for a broader audience. Even within the UK, the contemporary and more current term for them is "sculptures." Ipodamos (talk) 00:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

even the British Museum refers to them as The Parthenon Sculptures: https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/british-museum-story/contested-objects-collection/parthenon-sculptures Ipodamos (talk) 00:24, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Moreover, I contend that the persistence of the term "Elgin's Marbles" reflects a political position rather than a scholarly one. Ipodamos (talk) 00:33, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Regarding the sinking of the Mentor ship which carried the sculptures on Elgin's first trip back to Britain, I am happy to write a section based on this source: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/new-treasures-discovered-wreck-lord-elgins-ship-180973385/

there is already an item on wikipedia: Mentor (brig) Ipodamos (talk) 00:36, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

They refer to sculptures from the Parthenon as Parthenon sculptures. But the Elgin Marbles refers to the entire collecion of marbles acquired by Elgin. They are from the Parthenon, the Erechtheion, the Temple of Athena Nike and the Propylaia. I'm sure you agree that a marble from the Propylaia isn't a Parthenon sculture? I reiterate that this is an article about the marbles acquired by Elgin. There is already another article about the Metopes of the Parthenon and the Parthenon Frieze. I'm not sure whether there is one about the pediment sculptures. There is also an article about the Parthenon which discusses the sculptures. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:39, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

(ec) Nobody has ever called them "Elgin's Marbles". As was pointed out to you above, but you failed to grasp, the British Museum has only some of the surviving sculptures. You should read Parthenon#Sculpture, Metopes of the Parthenon, Parthenon Frieze and Pediments of the Parthenon, not to mention Acropolis Museum. It would be misleading to call this article Parthenon sculptures, which covers a much larger group. Johnbod (talk) 00:43, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

The article already sufficiently covers the sinking of the Mentor and the recovery of the marbles from it. Please read the article carefully before you propose changes. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:44, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

there is only one phrase describing the sinking of the sculptures- Dont you think that sinking of a ship and remaining of the sculptures in the sea for 2 years deserve more discussion? Ipodamos (talk) 00:53, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

There is a whole sentence about the sinking of the Mentor and the recovery of the marbles in it. I think that is enough for a general article like this, unless you have new evidence that the damage to that shipment was more extensive than previously thought. I am more surprised that the section on damage doesn't discuss the damage wrought by Christian fanatics when the Parthenon was converted into a Church. This damage was far worse than anything inflicted on the marbles by the Venetians, Turks, Elgin or anyone else. The section on the subsequent damage to other sculptures Elgin left behind probably should be moved to the article on the Parthenon. It has nothing to do with the marbles removed by Elgin. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Your argument is invalid- If you arguing the case for distinction between 'Elgin's' and all other sculptures, why the 'Parthenon sculptures' or 'Parthenon marbles' search redirects to 'Elgin marbles'? The article needs to be rewritten. Ipodamos (talk) 00:46, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Regardless, do we have consensus that 'marbles' should change to 'sculptures'? Ipodamos (talk) 00:47, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I oppose changing marbles to sculptures. The article is fine as it is. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 00:58, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Can you elaborate why you think marbles Marble (toy) is a more appropriate term for the sculptures? The crux of the matter is to employ the term "sculpture" rather than "marble," as the latter inadvertently suggests a decorative detachment from the temple's integral structure, which is not the case. Ipodamos (talk) 01:07, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure what's happening here; is this how consensus is reached? by trying to convince someone that the 'article isn't fine' and he/she makes the decision? where are the arguments? and who gives you alone the power to decide these things? Ipodamos (talk) 12:29, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Furthermore, you replaced 'sculptures' throughout the text and replaced it inexplicably with 'marbles' even when you state that the Greek government has requested the 'marbles' back (they never use this term): this is inaccurate and frankly inexplicable: we are talking about pieces of art. I would like to raise this issue further because I think there are bias here. Ipodamos (talk) 12:48, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Currently the article uses "marbles" 158 times (many book titles etc) and "sculptures" 50 times. I'm sympathetic to boosting the "sculptures" count, especially in art historical rather than historical sections, but I suppose there is an advantage in a consistent vocabulary. Johnbod (talk) 14:17, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

In addition to using the term 'sculptures,' I suggest that the article be renamed as "The British Museum Collection of Acropolis Sculptures (commonly referred to as the Elgin Marbles)" or a similar title accompanied by relevant redirects. This non-controversial title would likely be acceptable to all parties involved. Elgin's reputation as a controversial figure, often regarded as a plunderer outside of the UK, makes the title "Elgin Marbles" contentious and potentially insulting to the monument and Greek history. Furthermore, it can perpetuate the misconception that they rightfully belong to Elgin. Ipodamos (talk) 17:50, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

There is no basis in policy for such a name change. The names for articles are supposed to be concise and reflect the most common English language usage. See: Article titles. The NYT article you recently added states that the relevant marbles in the British Museum are "commonly known as the Elgin marbles." This N-GRAM also shows that Elgin Marbles is far more commonly used than Parthenon Marbles.

As for replacing "marbles" for "sculptures" in the article, I really don't see why we should be boosting the word count for one of the alternatives for the sake of it. I suggest that whenever a source specifically refers to the artefacts collected by Elgin as "marbles" we use "marbles" as shorthand for the Elgin Marbles. Whenever a source specifically refers to "sculptures" or "Parthenon sculptures" we use "sculptures" as shorthand. We need to be flexible though because sometimes in the context of a particular sentence it's simply more natural and concise to use one word in preference to the other. Aemilius Adolphin (talk) 01:19, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

The term 'Elgin Marbles,' while commonly used in Anglo-Saxon countries, faces substantial scholarly and international dispute. This extends to countries such as Greece and Cyprus, where the name is perceived as disrespectful. It's important to consider an alternative perspective: why perpetuate the use of the term 'marbles' when it inherently misrepresents the nature of these artifacts? The word 'marbles' implies detached decorative objects rather than integral parts of a historical monument. By renaming the collection to something like "The British Museum Collection of Acropolis Sculptures (often referred to as the Elgin Marbles)," a more accurate representation is achieved without glossing over the controversy or promoting an incorrect portrayal. This revised title acknowledges both the commonly used term and the need for precision and respect in discussing these culturally significant artifacts. 62.38.221.177 (talk) 20:24, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

To start off, numerous articles outside the Anglo-Saxon world refer to these artworks as Parthenon marbles or sculptures, distancing them from Elgin's name. We might want to consider preserving this international perspective on Wikipedia. Check out these sources:

- Euronews: "Greece Renews Calls for British Museum to Return Parthenon Marbles"

(https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/08/23/greece-renews-its-calls-for-british-museum-to-return-parthenon-marbles-in-wake-of-priceless-discovery)

- The Evening Standard: "British Museum Faces Renewed Pressure from Greece Over Parthenon Marbles"

(https://www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/british-museum-greece-parthenon-elgin-marbles-archaeologists-b1102369.html)

- Ekathimerini: "Cycling 3,500 km for the Reunification of Parthenon Sculptures"

(https://www.ekathimerini.com/multimedia/images/1217348/cycling-3500-km-for-reunification-of-parthenon-sculptures/)

- BBC News: "British Museum Faces Calls to Return Parthenon Marbles to Greece"

(https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-66239150) Ipodamos (talk) 00:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

Ignore this comment- I can see the links and the logic of the distinction Ipodamos (talk) 00:57, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

but I still argue for the term 'sculptures' and a section on Mentor Ipodamos (talk) 00:57, 19 August 2023 (UTC)