Talk:Netherlands

Opening paragraph is inconsistent

"a country located in northwestern Europe with overseas territories in the Caribbean. It is the largest of four constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands"

Immediately thereafter the opening paragraph continues with "The Netherlands consists of twelve provinces".

This is a confused and confusing opening to a confused page.

Yes, the Kingdom has four constituent and autonomous parts, however the Netherlands does not. They are now two distinct entities.

As such, this Wikipedia page and the corresponding Kingdom page need to be cleaned up with factoids relating to the whole of the Kingdom relegated to that page and factoids related to what is the continental portion reported here--there is no such entity anyone refers to as "The Twelve Provinces". The highest point, for example is a mere 330 something meters above NAP, not 800 m. While the capital of Aruba is not Amsterdam.

Anyway, happy debating. These two pages are quite the mess of inconsistencies. The Netherlands consists of twelve provinc"es 24.246.52.220 (talk) 09:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The Kingdom consists of 4 countries (Netherlands, Aruba, Sint Maarten and Curacao). This page is about one of those countries: the Netherlands. It does not consist of Aruba, Sint Maarten and Curacao, but it consists of the European territory and 3 islands, which ware not countries: Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba. I hope that clears things up! L.tak (talk) 19:02, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Anon, other than "Holland" again raised above, a simple homonym that should not confuse anyone but does confuse so many, this actually is complex subject matter. Others and I had already improved the article in this respect and (for others: hopefully) will read your comment as an encouragement to continue doing so. So your comments are much appreciated! Thanks also to user L.tak for sharing a Dutch narrative on this subject that also has a raison d'être and basis in (evolving) reality. gidonb (talk) 08:22, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome! Happy to provide sources on the links between Statute, Constitution etc... Problem here of course is that the Kingdom is often (eg in international organizations) is abbreviated as Netherlands... And that the parliament of the country the Netherlands sometimes takes on Kingdom-tasks. ... And not all sources properly take into account the constitutional changes of 10-10-2010, when the Netherlands Antilles as a country were dissolved... L.tak (talk) 13:53, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Too long

This page has 98kB or readable prose: this is too long and needs addressing. Given that there are already separate History, Geography and Politics articles, the obvious way to reduce the page would be to rationalize and reduce some of these in situ. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I have again removed excessive text. Others did the same and the warning had already been removed. gidonb (talk) 10:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

Add coordinates:

 {{Coord|52|N|6|E|type:country|display=title}} 

Wiki-ircecho (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2023

There is an error in the density population. Simply, it is not consistent with the population and area declared. One of the three is wrong, I suppose the density. 2A00:23C8:708E:3F01:D13:D00E:760F:A958 (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: For an edit request you have to identify exactly what is wrong and what the correct value needs to be, along with sources to substantiate it. —Sirdog (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Proposal for Netherlands vs Holland

This is my first entry on a talk page that is not my own, so I hope I do this right, but I believe the best solution to this debate would be to change "informally" to "also known by the common misnomer Holland", as similarly done on the Spanish flu page. I propose this based on this article which is linked as a source already (reference 13), and I believe this change would signify that it is not a correct name for the country but often used as a term describing the country as a whole.GrampaSwood (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we should take a pedantic stance on it. That the Dutch government itself was using "Holland" (in English publications, I'm assuming) as recently as 2019 emphasizes how common it is. Non-prescriptivists consider however native speakers commonly say something to be correct. To acknowledge that it's informal suffices.

It seems that there are languages, such as Hungarian and Turkish, where names derived from "Holland" are the only names for the country.

Ironically, nobody's requesting that references to anything Dutch identify "Dutch" as a misnomer on the grounds that that word really means "German" (which in Dutch is "Duits" and in German is "Deutsch"), and nobody is asking us to identify and use "Netherlandish" (Dutch: "Nederlands") and "Netherlanders" (Dutch: "Nederlanders") as the real terms.

Also, see the previous discussion on the same topic from April, above. Largoplazo (talk) 23:15, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Please get your facts correct. Both Deutsch and Dutch are derived from the same stem, but that does not mean Dutch means German. In the case of Dutch the word is derived from the medieval Netherlandic word Diets nl:Diets meaning the people - referring to the local language in the region. Arnoutf (talk) 07:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Thus, a word that merely means "the people" now means something different from "the people". Just as people now use "Holland" to refer to the greater country and not just the portion in the south. Largoplazo (talk) 11:54, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

As explained many times, including under two previous headers right on this page as it presently stands, Holland is NOT a misnomer at all for the Netherlands. It's just informal in some languages, including English (the same in Dutch). In most languages it's THE formal name. Wikipedia cannot push FALSE information because some folks are confused about the Netherlands and about how language works. Reading and internalizing the line thoroughly may clear things up for you. gidonb (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I do not disagree with Gidonb on most what is said, however, whether the name (or a derived form) is the formal name in languages other than English (or arguably Dutch as that is the language of the country - see the reference to Hellenic Republic on Greece) does not really matter, given that this is the English Wikipedia. We also not name it the low countries reflecting the formal French name Pays-Bas. Arnoutf (talk) 07:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2023

I would like to move these two following proposition to two other places.

Netherlands

...

Netherlands literally means "lower countries" in reference to its low elevation and flat topography, with nearly 26% falling below sea level.[18] Most of the areas below sea level, known as polders, are the result of land reclamation that began in the 14th century.[19]

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First place. What is the current text:

1 Etymology

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The region called the Low Countries (comprising Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) has the same toponymy. Place names with Neder, Nieder, Nedre, Nether, Lage(r) or Low(er) (in Germanic languages) and Bas or Inferior (in Romance languages) are in use in low-lying places all over Europe. In the case of the Low Countries and the Netherlands, the geographical location of the lower region has been more or less downstream and near the sea. The Romans made a distinction between the Roman provinces of downstream Germania Inferior (nowadays part of Belgium and the Netherlands) and upstream Germania Superior. The designation 'Low' returned in the 10th-century Duchy of Lower Lorraine, which covered much of the Low Countries.[32][33]

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How I wish it were:

The region called the Low Countries (comprising Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) has the same toponymy. Place names with Neder, Nieder, Nedre, Nether, Lage(r) or Low(er) (in Germanic languages) and Bas or Inferior (in Romance languages) are in use in low-lying places all over Europe. Indeed, Netherlands literally means "lower countries" in reference to its low elevation and flat topography, with nearly 26% falling below sea level.[18]

More precisely, in the case of the Low Countries and the Netherlands, the geographical location of the lower region has been more or less downstream and near the sea [Please clarify: I'm not an English native speaker, so I may not understand the syntax well. But, I feel like something is missing here. The geographical location of the lower region has been more or less downstream and near the sea, depending on what? That is, it has been more or less downstream and near the sea, but what determines this proximity to the sea to be more or less extended? Is it just a question of geographical terminology, that is toponymy, or is there a geological reason for all this? In am other article, that is Land reclamation in the Netherlands, it is explained that in the Netherlands, in the past, between 500 BC and 500 AD, due to the fall in the sea level, some lands were exposed to a rate of 5-10 meters per year. In the same article it has been also talked about erosion of the seacoast. Could the reason for the low-lying area moving relative to the sea be one of two things? However, all this discussion can also be placed on the discussion page.]. The Romans made a distinction between the Roman provinces of downstream Germania Inferior (nowadays part of Belgium and the Netherlands) and upstream Germania Superior. The designation 'Low' returned in the 10th-century Duchy of Lower Lorraine, which covered much of the Low Countries.[32][33]

Second place. What is the current text:

3 Geography

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The Netherlands is geographically very low relative to sea level and is considered a flat country, with about 26% of its area[18] and 21% of its population[118] below sea level. The European part of the country is for the most part flat, with the exception of foothills in the far southeast, up to a height of no more than 321 metres, and some low hill ranges in the central parts. Most of the areas below sea level are caused by peat extraction or achieved through land reclamation. Since the late 16th century, large polder areas are preserved through elaborate drainage systems that include dikes, canals and pumping stations. Nearly 17% of the country's land area is reclaimed.[citation needed]

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How I wish it were:

3 Geography

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The Netherlands is geographically very low relative to sea level and is considered a flat country, with about 26% of its area[18] and 21% of its population[118] below sea level. Indeed, regarding the flat parts, we have that the European part of the country, with the exception of foothills in the far southeast, up to a height of no more than 321 metres, and some low hill ranges in the central parts, is for the most part flat. Regarding the lower parts, instead, we have that most of the areas below sea level are caused by peat extraction or achieved through land reclamation. Indeed, most of the areas below sea level, known as polders, are the result of land reclamation that began in the 14th century.[19] And nearly 17% of the country's land area is reclaimed.[citation needed] Because of these, since the late 16th century, these large polder areas are preserved through elaborate drainage systems that include dikes, canals and pumping stations.

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Thanks for your help and for listening, have a nice day, Simone Simone Aiello (talk) 16:29, 16 September 2023 (UTC)