Talk:Queenstown, South Africa

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On 31 March 2022, it was proposed that this article be moved to Komani. The result of the discussion was no consensus.

On 9 June 2023, it was proposed that this article be moved to Komani. The result of the discussion was not moved.

Change direction of Komani redirect?

Currently the article is known as Queenstown, and redirects from Komani to here. Given that the official name, as gazetted by government in Vol. 608 on the 9 February 2016, is Komani, should this not be the other way around? That said, I suspect usage of Komani is not very widespread.... --Mtb-za (talk) 09:57, 11 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Why is it Kimani but Stutterheim is still Stutterheim not Cumakala Imibongo (talk) 14:42, 9 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

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Please 🙀😿somebody write the debates about why they changed the name Queenstown to Komani

Please write the debates 41.114.145.3 (talk) 14:47, 4 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Because as we South Africans we have English & Xhosa name so we change Queenstown to komani so people don't understand English they can call Queenstown as komani

Thank you😊 Ndzamela (talk) 20:01, 15 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Am offended 41.114.203.200 (talk) 09:05, 21 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 31 March 2022

This discussion was listed at Wikipedia:Move review on 7 April 2022. The result of the move review was reopened.

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Per Wikipedia's naming policy, our choice of name does not automatically follow the official or local form, but depends on that change having become predominant in common global usage. There is no consensus that up-to-date reliable references predominantly use one name over the other. (closed by non-admin page mover) ––FormalDude talk 02:01, 13 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Queenstown, South Africa → Komani – Town has been renamed since 2016 and reliable sources regularly use the new name.

Komani boy receives scholarship - March 31 2022

R98-million road puts focus back on Komani - 25 March 2022

R15m stadium in Komani unusable - 24 March 2022

Boxing returns to Komani with tournament this weekend - 17 March 2022

Mkhwebane to inspect controversial R15m Lesseyton sports stadium in Komani - 18 March 2022

Residents fight moves to downgrade Komani WSU campus - 09 March 2022

Sixth suspected drug dealer arrested in Komani - 12 Mar 2022

Relatives of retired Komani pastor want him to ‘rot in jail’ - March 16, 2022

DA condemns municipality for fire at Komani Town Hall - 30 Jan 2022

Millions to be spent on fence for Komani psychiatric hospital - 24 Mar 2022

Teenage rugby players descend on Komani 3 Mar 2022

These are a diverse range of sources from multiple news outlets. Dates are included to show consistent and recent usage. Desertambition (talk) 06:39, 31 March 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 21:28, 20 April 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 21:44, 28 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose, per WP:COMMONNAME. A Google News search for this Queenstown returns 282 results in the past year, while a search for Komani returns 229 results. Google Scholar produces a similar result, with 212 results since 2021 for Queenstown, compared to 87 for Komani. Note the results for Queenstown are likely to be lower than the true figures, due to the need to restrict the search due to this Queenstown not being the primary topic. BilledMammal (talk) 07:20, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Note that while the Queenstown results are filtered, the Komani results were not in order to provide the most optimistic figure and thus, due to Komani being less common despite this, the strongest popular argument for Queenstown. In particular, it includes results for unrelated topics such as Komani Reservoir in Albania, Bakau Komani , Mohammed Komani, among others. BilledMammal (talk) 00:30, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. Rreagan007 (talk) 15:29, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support per WP:NATURAL.--Ortizesp (talk) 15:42, 31 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The current title is already a natural disambiguation, so that argument doesn't apply. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:27, 21 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose per BilledMammal, encyclopaedias like Britannica^[1] use ‘Queenstown’. Ale3353 (talk) 07:01, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
If you check the edit history, that entry was last updated in 2008 and the town was renamed in 2016. It is not up to date and sources from before the name change are not applicable. Desertambition (talk) 08:00, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support as more concise and naturally disambiguating. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:24, 2 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. It's been known and famous as Queenstown for too long for its common name to suddenly change relatively overnight. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:29, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps I am looking at the wrong information but it seems like the town has been renamed for over six years.

Goodbye to Queenstown, hello Komani- Five town names are changed

New names, but no signs say EC residents

These are two of the sources I was looking at. Desertambition (talk) 21:21, 6 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Six years is overnight in the grand scheme of things! It wasn't meant to be taken literally. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:47, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Ah ok, I understand now. Apologies for misunderstanding. While six years is not very long in the grand scheme of things, it seems like almost exclusive use of the new name by reliable secondary sources is enough to constitute WP:COMMONNAME. Especially considering the large amount of recently published sources that use the new name. Desertambition (talk) 18:01, 7 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support. These names are used more and more in reliable sources, so they should be changed from their former official names to the new names per WP:COMMONNAME. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. ^put'r there 00:51, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Is there evidence that these names have become the common name? I note that all the evidence presented in favour so far are single examples, which tell us nothing about whether these names are being used more and more in reliable sources, or whether the name has become the common name. I also note that the single examples provided might not be from reliable sources; for example, four of them are from news24, which also published this article describing a woman in Eastern Cape as being 118 years old, which means they are making the dubious claim that she, not Kane Tanaka, was the oldest person in the world at the time. Dispatch Live, another reference supporting this nomination also published a similar story. news24 also seems to have continued given credulity to the claim that Gosiame Thamara Sithole gave bith to decuplets, months after the claim was proven false. BilledMammal (talk) 01:04, 8 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  This is not the place to bring up your claims about reliable sources. Please bring your concerns to WP:RSP. News24 is a reliable source and is not deprecated. "Single examples" is a fairly uncharitable way to describe a range of articles from reliable sources.
  
  Per WP:NAMECHANGES:
  
  "Sometimes the subject of an article will undergo a change of name. When this occurs, we give extra weight to independent, reliable English-language sources ("reliable sources") written after the name change. If the reliable sources written after the change is announced routinely use the new name, Wikipedia should follow suit and change relevant titles to match. If, on the other hand, reliable sources written after the name change is announced continue to use the established name, Wikipedia should continue to do so as well, as described above in "Use commonly recognizable names"." Desertambition (talk) 21:43, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per commonname, as shown by BilledMammal's analysis. DrKay (talk) 19:55, 11 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support seems that the name has enough use in newer sources to satisfy the requirements under WP:MPN. The proposed title is also better under WP:NATURAL, as other users have already mentioned. Turnagra (talk) 10:18, 13 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.britannica.com/place/Queenstown-South-Africa

Support When something on Wikipedia adopts a new official name, we use the new official name if it's clear sources written after the name change use the new title. This is clear from both the sources and the governmental changes, as there's an article showing they switched the road signs over to the new name, which is pretty clear evidence we should switch over. Therefore WP:NAMECHANGES is completely satisfied, common namers have no argument, and there should be no doubt to the new common name, even if both names are still in general use. SportingFlyer T·C 15:24, 20 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- Road signs are evidence of what the official name is, not the common name. BilledMammal (talk) 09:20, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Support This seems to be a geographic renaming that has been widely and quickly adopted, especially in South Africa. Per WP:TIES we should take into account what is being used in English-language sources in South Africa and the search results above suggest use of Queenstown is more favoured by British sources such as the Financial Times and the BBC when referring to the city. Komani also serves as a natural and preside disambiguation. AusLondonder (talk) 09:12, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:TIES doesn't apply here; WP:MPN requires common global usage, and WP:ENGVAR, which TIES is a part of, covers vocabulary (which toponyms typically come out of but are not considered part of), grammar, and spelling, but not toponyms.
It also doesn't appear to have been quickly adopted, in South Africa or elsewhere - see Google Trends. In South Africa this Queenstown is the primary topic which means that the result is usable, and it tells us that the preferred toponym among South Africans remains Queenstown. BilledMammal (talk) 09:18, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You have a decent point with the search trends, although the overwhelming preference for Queenstown seems odd considering usage in media and government. I think the natural disambiguation is still preferable, as usage in sources is not consistent, but I don't have an overwhelmingly strong view. I should have cited WP:TITLEVAR which states "If a topic has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation, the title of its article should use that nation's variety of English." Nevertheless, MOS:TIES is part of the broader Manual of Style, the "style manual for all English Wikipedia articles". I consider titles broadly part of that. AusLondonder (talk) 09:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support per WP:TIES - South Africans have the right to decide the name of their cities. If the government is calling a city "Komani" and the people are starting to call it "Komani" it seems like we should probably call it "Komani". Red Slash 17:22, 4 May 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 9 June 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Evidence provided indicates the old name is still widely used; Editors may start an RM later if and when this is no longer the case. (non-admin closure) Captain Jack Sparrow (talk) 06:11, 30 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Queenstown, South Africa → Komani – As per the move discussion last year, the town's WP:COMMONNAME is now clearly Komani. For instance, the Diocese of Queenstown clearly calls the town Komani: [1] and the next most recent news hit for Queenstown - in a sea of Komani news hits - came as a Komani (formerly Queenstown) [2]. Local road signs use Komani. Should be a non-controversial move, but given the last discussion, I'm re-starting the discussion. SportingFlyer T·C 16:39, 9 June 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 21:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisting comment: Per previous RM. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 21:21, 16 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support as above; in South African English, clearly the new name dominates Red Slash 07:11, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support, but move to Komani, South Africa per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY estar8806 (talk) ★ 21:05, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support moving to Komani, South Africa like estar8806 proposed. Killuminator (talk) 06:12, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. I would be open to this, but the evidence presented above is insufficient. The first link is from "Association for Catholic Information in Africa", which doesn't indicate to me that it is representative of reliable sources on this topic. The headline of the second link actually reads "South Africa: Protests Shut Down Queenstown for a Second Day". That's all that has been presented here. Google Trends says that Queenstown continues to dominate in usage even in South Africa. Dekimasuよ! 03:12, 20 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Dekimasu: The first link shows that even an organisation that still uses the old name is now using the new name. You can't rely on Google Trends because Queenstown is used far more globally than Komani. And the research is obvious. Road signs. The local paper. The other local paper. The (destroyed) town hall. This one should be obvious. SportingFlyer T·C 09:32, 26 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
(previous relister) Oppose Komani, South Africa per WP:NCGN#South Africa. CLYDE ^{TALK TO ME}/_{STUFF DONE} (please mention me on reply) 07:14, 24 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support move to Komani: I can only find news sources referring to this as "Komani" (sometimes with "formerly Queenstown"). I have to look quite hard to find sources from 2023 calling it "Queenstown" outright. Oppose move to Komani, South Africa per WP:NCGN#South Africa. — MarkH₂₁^talk 01:24, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per google trends search, which is specific for South Africa. It's no use saying the search results are global when they are not. And it's obvious that the name Queenstown is still common in South Africa: [3][4][5][6][7][8][9] The South African town isn't even the primary topic for 'Komani': as demonstrated by google searches, the primary topic is in Albania. DrKay (talk) 07:27, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose, per my comment in the previous RfC; looking at the updated results for those queries suggests that Queenstown continues to be the WP:COMMONNAME. BilledMammal (talk) 08:25, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose. As far as I can see from the various links provided by different users, Queenstown is still in widespread use. The Google trends results provided by Dekimasu is strong evidence in favour of Queenstown being more common than Komani in a South African context. It is not obvious that the primary topic of Komani is the town in South Africa also known Queenstown. When this move discussion is closed, then I think we should have a move discussion for Komani (disambiguation) to decide whether it should be moved to Komani.-- Toddy1 (talk) 18:11, 28 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I should have done a better job of fighting for the move, but the opposition to moving this is absolutely ridiculous and is based on a single website's "trends" when it's clear from being on the ground that this is called Komani. SportingFlyer T·C 17:31, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.britannica.com/place/Queenstown-South-Africa

[1]