Talk:Druid

Human sacrifice?

Interesting write up on the ancient druids but there are things stated as facts that come to us 2nd hand .. actually all information is 2nd hand really as neither the Celts nor druids prescribed to a written language.

One thing I definitely take exception to is Julius Caesar's account of "human sacrifice" and the mention or the barbarity of it WHEN what else was the colosseum in many ways.. and also Rome was sacked by the Celts (or rather a tribe of it) before the decline of Rome and the raw hatred for this act since it showed the weakness of Rome I believe makes anything suspect in regards to druids or the Celts.

Of course sadly we don't have time machines (as yet anyway and hopefully never as humans have issues moving one way in time in a specified time increment and I shudder to think of the damage we could and would do)..

I just wish the right up said this as proof of anything is impossible and believing the Roman excerpts difficult since the "druid" religion was the only one that was truly systematically attacked and destroyed by the Roman empire and it's conquests Shaman1996 (talk) 17:57, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

note - the Colosseum was not built for over a century after Caesar's death. 50.111.2.158 (talk) 12:45, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

The article seems reasonably even-handed, and careful to ascribe the description to Classical sources (at one point even saying that Caesar "alleged" this). Given the archaeological evidence, I would oppose opining that Classical writers had an ulterior motive in inventing this. -- Elphion (talk) 21:37, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

A couple of corrections/clarifications... the druids *were* apparently literate but deliberately chose not to (or were required not to) commit their knowledge to writing. Julius Caesar's account of sacrificial practices is actually quite matter of fact. He's neutral about it. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 10:17, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Caesar says they were not permitted to record their sacred texts, and when they wrote other things down, as they did, they used Greek lettering (Book 6, ch 14).Deipnosophista (talk) 11:16, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

I've restored Chadwick, who is unquestionably a Reliable Source. We need to retain NPOV here; the truth is we really don't know how the Druids were involved in human sacrifice (although it's reasonably clear that it was practiced in pre-Christian Europe over time by several peoples, including Celts, Germans, and Romans. -- Elphion (talk) 13:23, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

I've reverted it again, but am not closed to replacing it... we need to bear in mind the age of the source Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Age matters. Fifty years is a long, long time in academia. We have had Gournay, Ribemont, Lindow all since then. At present the article is (IMO) too discursive for an encyclopedia article and we would be better putting the he said/she saids in footnotes... Catfish Jim and the soapdish 13:49, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Discursive or not, whether Druids were involved in human sacrifice is something of a flashpoint, and you are, in effect, sweeping the controversy under the rug. If modern scholarship goes against Chadwick, then you need to say that, with references. Otherwise, the view that Druids' hands are clean will only surface again. -- Elphion (talk) 13:58, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Okay, I'll modify this to make it more encyclopedic but retain mention that it's controversial. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 14:27, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Best view on Roman practice is probably now Mary Beard (Professor of Classics at Cambridge University, classics editor of the Times Literary Supplement) in SPQR: A History of Ancient Rome (2015), who cites occasions in 228, 216 and 133 BC when the Romans resorted to human sacrifice (to the embarrassment of some later Roman historians). Deipnosophista (talk) 11:11, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Rambling personal view with no reference to Reliable Sources

Peat bogs and lakes amongst are common places to find sacrifice yet these persons freely accepted death.We plant timecapsules and because all victims are in liminal places,most drowned,garroted and throat slit signifies a warning as we uncover timecapsule archeology on a people's we know little about due to history.I am druid and have walked in solitary(hermetic) for 17 years.All human sacrifice was commonplace in neolithic and earlier times as J.G Fraser remarks THE GOLDEN BOUGH.Winners write history those who know history disrupt bias,I as druid am not neo but ancient I am 10,000 years old via landscape geomantic reading.I am a non-dualistic solitarian druid who accepts the acorn and shunning of those like me over millennials has been consistent,as a recognized religion law states it can not be taught in R.E due to a 16+ age and parental consent laws!!! This is shunning and highly targeting of a minority religious culture.Wake up a 6th bce Greek works references druids as 'masters of civilization,supernatural and levitate,the invisibility cloak is also attributed.levitation is simply inspiring sophisticated thought and debate.Invisible cloak points at our belief in telepathy (proven as I am v2k T.I akin to Julian Assange.As for civilization scholars are now accepting the druids hold huge power in regards to being the monkey in the valley of the tiger.Human sacrifice pertains via psychological torture upon druids and like minded peace loving folk,v2k is beyond doubt targeting those if us who are aware everybody is a sacrificial token in this game,druids more so.So to nail sacrifice down is to accept mercy killing to hold knowledge and lead by example,one does not fear death when aware of death being another dimension,hence liminal place burials.No records of any druidic massacre exists that is not bias and used as propaganda by Christendom.Druuds would have given Glastonbury to the christians persecuted by Rome,144,000 is Glastonbury's measure.The Eurocentric lie leads from such thought and albinism remains shunned on west of Africa this is how I believe white melatonin landed in U.K.Isle of Wight means white ghost whilst the Albion is ancient word for U.K with the dover cliffs relating albino (of white).Many have been sacrificed to ensure one rare albinistic gene trait survives with all other albinism expanding from this 1percent natural twist of fate.Albino forearms are prized magical asserts for tribal folk uneducated in modern melatonin albinism.All ancient times saw sacrifice yet religion was distorted ensuring mass genocides till today via IMC slow kill.Much is not understood on druids simy via lack of awareness and acceptance of poor archeology and bias accounts Wo22y (talk) 01:19, 8 July 2019 (UTC) The 144,000 is the witness to god in Bible script yet druidically this refuge was given.why?Druids had never heard of such morality given Christ fulfilled self prophecy to change power by example.Though druids learnt assisting folk lore into judiciary today where the scene of a trial is defendant paraded as Christ,Santos Bonnacci astro theology!!As civilization makers and creators the green Man is in many churches and cathedrals in U.K.Alien green men from U.S.A reeks of mutation of pagan green Man as aliens of green,colour of jealousy and narure EXCUSE SPELLING ETC FIRST TIME New scientist /the miracle of morality/ one source of moral druid Wo22y (talk) 01:32, 8 July 2019 (UTC) For scholastic purposes the answers are there but require a non bias explanation,our druidic oral history spins magic into a corrupted world of institutional ism Wo22y (talk) 01:37, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Druids

I notice that your discussion of modern understandings of Druids does not cover criticisms of the standard view. Below, please find the URL to a recent article, parts of which may warrant inclusion in your article.

https://theconversation.com/britannia-druids-and-the-surprisingly-modern-origins-of-myths-89979 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.185.100.226 (talk) 00:32, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Quite the 'PC'-POV article - doesn't wash with most historians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.111.2.158 (talk) 12:52, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Note on the 'sources on druid beliefs and practices | greek and roman records' section

The first paragraph's discussion of Stuart Pigott's work on the views of Early Modern and Classical europeans regarding peoples they considered 'primitive' - I am unsure where in this sentence the word 'perceived' should go to indicate that both the 'lesser technological development' and the 'socio-political backwardness' are issues of perception rather than fact. I feel it better indicates this when positioned before 'lesser technological development', but if others feel this implies the 'perceived' adjective only applies to the former descriptor rather than to both descriptors, please edit the sentence to more clearly reflect that both descriptors are 'perceived', and not just one of them. thanks!
options:

• because of their perceived lesser technological development and backwardness in socio-political development
• because of their lesser technological development and perceived backwardness in socio-political development
• because of their perceived lesser technological development and perceived backwardness in socio-political development

--Jaycravn (talk) 21:55, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

I rewrote that sentence; the previous version was not salvageable. -- Elphion (talk) 00:14, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Etymology: "Knower of Truth"

'Dru' is the ancient indo-european word for "true". 'DruWed' (DruVed) just meant 'true wisdom'. From 'straight' (as in "the plumb-line is true", or a tree chosen to make the best straight timbers ("true") - which is where mistranslation 'oak' (instead of straight [wood/tree] comes in much later). DruWed means 'Knower of Truth' (ie. the priest, shaman, lord, etc.).
- 'wed' (https://www.etymonline.com/word/wise ["wade" "weid"]), 'ved', 'vid', 'video', 'vis', 'vision', 'wis', 'wisdom'...'wizard'.

Grounding needed

Most of what is written about druids tends to be no more than wishful thinking, and that applies to a lot of the stuff on this page and far too much in the article itself. As the latter actually makes clear, there's virtually no archaeological evidence relevant to druids; and in fact there is also precious little in ancient writers: most of that is in Caesar's Gallic Wars (and most of that in the 700-odd words of Book 6, Chapters 13 and 14), and nobody knows how reliable that is, although it does indicate that at least some important druid practices originated in Britain and were adopted in Gaul at second hand, with who knows what adaptations in the process. And it seems probable that the Roman conquest of Gaul and southern Britain effectively stamped out the druids (brief references in 4th and 5th century works look more like literary decoration than evidence of contemporary druids).

Part of the problem is the attempt by people in modern times (starting with Aubrey in the 17th century and Stukely and Edward Williams (aka Iolo Morgannwg) in the 18th century) to cultivate something which they decided was druidry, and to which they may have a passionate attachment. That is an interesting story, with a fascinating interaction with Welsh cultural movements, and really deserves a quite separate article from one covering druids in ancient Britain and Gaul. A useful introduction is Philip Shallcrass's "Druidry" (pub. Piatkus, London, 2000).

This article needs to be rewritten, but I have no time myself. Deipnosophista (talk) 10:47, 4 February 2022 (UTC)