Talk:Somalis in Norway

I am requesting that a new lead needs to be made for the article

i think this is a good lead one that is a short breif summary of the entire article i feel the current lead does not include texts from the article but texts not included in the article i thought this lead made by XavierItzm a few weeks ago before it was taken down was good but it might need some improvements before anyone contributes i am asking for any of you to either improve or add on to the lead below

an example of a recent lead made by XavierItzm

Gender equality is well perceived by the group with regard to work outside the home, but not with regard to sexual activity. The group has the highest birth rate in Norway. 40% rely on the State for substenance. Immigration fraud by claiming blood ties is 1 in 4. The Prime Minister of Somalia is a Norwegian citizen.

recent removal of WP:RS information

Hi Sahasu, per WP:BRD when your edits were reverted becaues they removed information sourcedto WP:RS sources in violation of WP:PRESERVE, you are required to discuss your edits on the talk page. You are welcome to add new material to the article, but material being "old" is not a reason to delete it - it's simply part of the history of the subject. Are we going to delete the article about World War 1 just because it's old? Of course not. A Thousand Words (talk) 06:01, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

why does somalis in norway have to start of with such deregetory information in the lead other ethnic group pages does not include this — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sahasu (talk • contribs) 07:25, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

The article certainly needs restructuring, as the lede should summarise the article, but that's not a reason to delete anything. I do however agree that some of the material is rather pointy and needs to be balanced with less sensationalist reporting. Somalis in the United Kingdom isn't a perfect article, but it might provide some ideas on how this type of material can be set in context and treated more responsibly. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:58, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Somalis in the United Kingdom doesn't have such inflammatory lead just about the number of Somalis in the United Kingdom this article however does and seems very biased with over emphasization on deported individual and some of the information with regards to the culture section of greater sexual freedoms gifted to somali males over females did not even exist on the article the article was about job inequality between somali males and females not about sexual freedom, and the information was simply false this article is a reason for one of my many edits on the somali diaspora as a whole kind regards Sahasu (talk) 14:49, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

: The edits by blocked user Sahasu have been reverted on the basis of WP:PRESERVE of WP:RS information. Sahasu's WP:BOLD edits should have been discussed before being reinserted into the article per WP:BRD. A Thousand Words (talk) 07:17, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

no need for blatanly racist material in this article about somalis getting deported comitting fraud and crime

this article should be about somalis in norway the number of population employment and socio economic situation without the need to mention fraud or crime or deported somalis can the article please just mention the somalis who are here and not the ones deported or whether or not the population is comitting crimes or not that would be nice thank you, also their is no need for such information in the lead of the article--Sahasu (talk) 14:40, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

You are required to WP:AGF assume good faith, but you are a new user so you should take the time to read the AGF link. It is a guideline and editors are required to follow it, new and old editors alike. A Thousand Words (talk) 18:52, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

strange section that mentions attitudes to sex

sociologist Katrine Fangen conducted interviews with 50 Somalis living in Norway. According to her interviews, both men and women were positive towards gender equality when understood as both men and women working outside the home. There was a significant difference for sexuality, where boys had much greater sexual freedom than girls and they could engage in behaviour that would be strongly sanctioned when done by a female.

this was what was written in the original section, i have read the article and their was no mention of whether or not boys have greater sexual freedom sex is generally coincided taboo in the Somali community and most parents would advice against participating in degenerate behavior the only thing mentioned in the article was gender equality in the work place between somali men and women as men were more likely to work then women in the somali community

The Google Translated section says "The main difference when it comes to gender is sexual morality, especially for women. Young men have far more leeway in this area, they can afford a freer way of life that would be greatly sanctioned if a young [Somali] Norwegian woman behaved in the same way, says Fangen." So what you have written above is a wilful distortion of the text. You or anyone else can be WP:BLOCKED for distortion of WP:RELIABLE sources, depending on community consensus or administrator views!! Buckshot06 (talk) 21:01, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Buckshot06 for your information, this section was added by user Sahasu who has already been blocked by enWP (follow user talk page link in diff). Thanks for pointing out that the user distorted the reliable source. A Thousand Words (talk) 10:18, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I had seen your discussion with him, and had gathered that he had been blocked. So yes, in this case, I added a response to a long-idle comment thread, which we of course do not normally do. To anyone out there, "patriotic" Somalis who are watching this page, WE WILL NOT TOLERATE WILLFUL DISTORTION OF SOURCES!! WIKIPEDIA *RELIES* ON FOLLOWING WP:RELIABLE SOURCES!! Buckshot06 (talk) 10:38, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

References

my reasons for why their shouldn't be a title with crime and deportations

why does somalis in norway have to have such inflamatory leads about deported indeviduals no longer in norway or reffrences to fraud i dont see any of this in the wiki pages of other ethnic groups also As per WP:NOTNEWSPAPER, a handful of men getting deported committing crime or reportedly meeting to join some political militant group(s) is news fodder. It hardly encapsulates the community at large - "Wikipedia considers the enduring notability of persons and events. While news coverage can be useful source material for encyclopedic topics, most newsworthy events do not qualify for inclusion." Wikinews is there for that. The macro here is that some individuals committed fraud or some individuals got deported who are no longer in the country and how does deported individuals represent Norwegian Somalis living their today. And am sure its a question you cant answer anyhow please stay on topic and also some of the information with regards to the culture section of greater sexual freedoms gifted to somali males over females did not even exist on the article, the article was about job inequality between somali males and females not about sexual freedom, and the information was simply false as i have read through the entire article also sexual freedom is coincided taboo in the somali community a topic thats never discussed and most somali parents encourage their children to get married rather then engage in what they view as sinful or haram activity and encourage the hairdressing for modesty for example in accordance with islamic principles. The article is a reason for one of my many edits on somalis in Norway page as and the diaspora as a whole and please do not revert without engaging in the talk page we definitely dont need such leads in the beginning of the article and please take reference from Somalis in the united kingdom page or Somali Americans page for some inspiration on how a lead should be written kind regards Sahasu (talk) 14:49, 4 October 2019 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sahasu (talk • contribs)

to add It hardly encapsulates the community at large the elephant in the room here is that some individuals committed fraud or some individuals got deported who are no longer in the country and how does deported individuals represent norwegian and danish Somalis living their today also this isnt realy how a lead should be written please take inspiration from somalis in the united kingdom page or Somali Americans page it doesnt matter if any of it is true should we document every single individual person who has committed a crime and who happens to belong to a ethnic group and put that in the lead of all ethnic groups should we have nazi death camps in the lead of the German ethnic group should we also have osama bin laden and isis in the lead to a saudi ethnic group page or an arab ethnic group page or every single rape committed by a white person to be on the lead of all major European ethnic group pages i think not Please do not revert and let's keep this in the talk page-- — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sahasu (talk • contribs) 18:24, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

You're quite correct, Sahasu. There are clearly some people contributing to this article who have a political agenda. The same thing happens in other articles such as "Crime and immigration in Germany", which even in its title links the two concepts in a way disparaged by the WP:SYNTH guideline.Deb (talk) 08:49, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

Deb be advised that user Sahasu and Kndnm64 are blocked due to being sockpuppets of user Kend94, per Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Kend94 and archive. A Thousand Words (talk) 21:03, 27 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, it's a shame his English is so poor. I triedto warn him. Deb (talk) 13:03, 1 December 2019 (UTC)

i also agree this article has feutured in numerous somali orientated newspapers for its extreme negetive content on the somali community in norway and i also think a new lead which can be short and a good summary of the article is needed i think XavierItzm recent lead was done quite well it didnt contain too much content but included both negetive and positive aspects of the community and was rather balanced free from any kind of political agenda --Kndnm64 (talk) 15:40, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

a new lead is needed for this article one that reflects both positive and negetive aspects of the community and is also an appropriate short summary lead

i honestly think a new lead should be made for this article i think XavierItzm lead was a great short summary of the article and did not contain too much details as is appropriate for an article lead the way in which any article should be written the article also needs to contain both positive and negetive aspects of the community so in order for the lead to not favour any narrative and can be a fair and balanced description

also in regards to the second paragraph lead about somalis who lied about coming from somalia many of these people were not somalis but infacts citizens of neighboring countries like djibouti or ethiopia and as a result i dont think this should be in the lead or in the article at all and doesn't reflect the somali community from somalia as a whole.

second paragraph (In 2015, investigations by authorities showed that some Somalis who had claimed to be refugees from the civil wars in Somalia, although ethnic Somalis, were residents of countries neighbouring Somalia. Several of those along with their offspring lost their Norwegian citizenships. In the same year, Norwegian authorities started a program to repatriate Somalis with no right to reside in Norway to Somalia, primarily individuals from Mogadishu."(

So you mean you want the lead to emphasize negative aspects of the Somali community? Sorry, that's not in keeping with the neutral point of view policy. Deb (talk) 16:06, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

oh no i didn't say that i meant the lead which is quite negative and also their should be some positive aspects which the lead hardly contains and in fact lacks and i also believe the second paragraph mentioning nationals from Djibouti and Ethiopia who lied about coming from Somalia shouldn't be in this article as they are not Somali nationals from Norway--Kndnm64 (talk) 17:01, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

References

various reports and sources are either poorly misunderstood or taken out of context and falsely concluded.

i have noticed several sources that were quoted incorrectly and falsely on this article and from the crime section in this article their is a report from article https://www.ssb.no/sosiale-forhold-og-kriminalitet/artikler-og-publikasjoner/_attachment/332143?_ts=16035d6f0d8

in the crime section on the "Somalis in Norway" article

And one of these references include the information on crime among immigrants in Norway, the article did not specifically detail the nations these immigrants came from, and would otherwise mention continents they came from also according to the report individuals from turkey Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran were over represented in crime and those under represented came from the Philippines India, china and Thailand

the quote below is a statement from the report

the statement is written in norwegian and is in the ending section of page 57 of the report

Samlet sett gjenspeiler resultatene de vi kjenner fra tidligere studier (se særlig Skarðhamar, Thorsen og Henriksen, 2011). Vi finner at det er en høyere andel gjerningspersoner blant både innvandrere og norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre sammenlignet med øvrig befolkning. Andelen gjerningspersoner er høyest blant norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre, noe som er et nytt funn i norsk sammenheng, men som tidligere har blitt funnet i andre sammenlignbare land, som Sverige og Danmark (Andersen og Tranæs, 2011; Danmarks Statistik, 2017; Kardell og Carlsson, 2009). Forskjeller i kjønns- og alderssammensetningen forklarer en god del av overrepresentasjonen, og alder er en særlig viktig forklaringsfaktor blant norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre. Overrepresentasjonen består imidlertid i de fleste grupper som i utgangspunktet er overrepresentert også etter at slike faktorer er tatt hensyn til. Arbeidsinnvandrere er et viktig unntak. Videre finner vi at det er vesentlig variasjon i andelen gjerningspersoner og siktede personer etter innvandringsbakgrunn. Blant innvandrere er overrepresentasjonen særlig stor blant personer med bakgrunn fra asiatiske og afrikanske land, og blant personer som har fått opphold i Norge grunnet flukt og familieetablering eller -gjenforening. Personer med bakgrunn fra vesteuropeiske og nordamerikanske land, samt utdanningsinnvandrere, er underrepresentert. Også innad i hver landgruppe – og da særlig i Asia – finner vi enkeltland som er både overrepresentert (herunder Tyrkia, Afghanistan, Irak og Iran) og underrepresentert (herunder Filippinene, India, Kina og Thailand). Dette illustrerer nok en gang hvordan gruppen av innvandrere er heterogent sammensatt og bidrar på ulike vis og i ulik grad til det totale kriminalitetsbildet i Norge.

the quote from the report suggests individuals from countries such as turkey Afghanistan Iraq and Iran were over represented in crime and no where in the report was their a mention of immigrants from somalia among those over represented in crime I think its wrong and quite frankly dishonest to mention that Somalis along with afghans and iraqis are over represented in crime even though the report suggested otherwise, i would appreciate if the report is quoted correctly.

my next issue is from the culture section of the "Somalis in Norway" article and regarding the article titled "Hva er det med somalierne?" article link http://kjonnsforskning.no/nb/2008/02/hva-er-det-med-somalierne

quote from the article

from the freedom and controll section

"– De yngre opplever ikke nødvendigvis likestilling som noe som skiller det somaliske fra det norske. Det vesentlige skillet når det kommer til kjønn, går på seksualmoral, da særlig for kvinner. Unge menn har langt større spillerom på dette området, de kan tillate seg en friere livsførsel som ville bli sterkt sanksjonert dersom en ung norsksomalisk kvinne oppførte seg på samme måten, sier Fangen."

i dont think this section mentioned that men were allowed to have sexual relations while women were not i think they have greater sexual freedom the report specifically mentioned men have greater sexual morality ie are trusted more with their sexuality then women who are not. Both men and women are prohibited and discouraged from engaging in sexual relations before marriage in accordance to Islamic principle and i find it very strange that the article mentions that Somali men can engage in sex when most of the times Somali men are discouraged from engaging in sinful behavior

quote from article "– Jeg finner store generasjonsforskjeller mellom de unge jentene og mødrene deres. De unge vil ha frihet og respekt, mens noen av foreldrene holder igjen. Samtidig er det andre, særlig av mødrene, som lar barna få stor frihet, forteller Fangen. Ayannas mor er et eksempel på det:"

the author suggests that between young girls and mothers the young somali girls are given greater freedom and respect which some of their somali parents wouldn't do , and that the mothers allow their children both men and women to have greater freedom , I would appreciate if the article is correctly quoted as to avoid any false statements and false conclusions made from the article, And i would greatly appreciate if the article is quoted directly from its own words or at least understood correctly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kndnm64 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

concerning the article about the quranic schools in somalia https://www.nrk.no/norge/ny-rapport_-fire-av-ti-norsksomaliske-ungdommer-sendt-pa-skole-i-utlandet-1.14386419

– Det er helt klart et problem at mange sendes ut av landet og får avbrudd i sin norske skolegang. De får problemer med å bli integrert i det norske samfunnet når de kommer tilbake, sier statssekretær Kristin Holm Jensen i Kunnskapsdepartementet. full quote from the justice minister

i dont think the words of the justice minister needs to be taken out of context in the article her full statement needs to be included.--Kndnm64 (talk) 20:44, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Statistics Norway report relevant information

• The Statistics Norway report says on page 28 For eksempel har andelen gjerningspersoner fra Irak sunket fra 249 til 125 per 1000 og for innvandrere fra Somalia fra 227 til 124 per 1000 (se Tabell D1 i Skarðhamar, Thorsen og Henriksen, 2011, for tall som er direkte sammenlignbare med våre). meaning that Somalis used to have 227 perpetrators per 1000 but this has decreased to 124. Which means that while overrepresentation is currently high, it was even higher in the past. The earlier figure could be included in this article.
• The report has a chart on page 30 which shows that Somalis are overrepresented in crime also after "compensating for socioeconomic factors".
• The summary cited by Kndnm64 says Blant innvandrere er overrepresentasjonen særlig stor blant personer med bakgrunn fra asiatiske og afrikanske land which means the report explicitly says overrepresentation is particularly high among people with background in Asian and African countries.

Therfore the claims by user Kndnm64 that the report does not mention Somalis does not correlate with the cited source. A Thousand Words (talk) 09:34, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Nope just checked page 30

Their is still no mention of somalis specifically In the text just a reference to Africa and Asia, Kndnm64 (talk) 16:52, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

It says "Somalia" in the list of countries in "Figur 3.2" on page 30. It's the 15th entry from the bottom. Reference to people from Somalia are also on page 28 as per my first post. Therefore people from Somalia in Norway are mentioned in the report. A Thousand Words (talk) 17:10, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

For eksempel har andelen gjerningspersoner fra Irak sunket fra 249 til 125 per 1000 og for innvandrere fra Somalia fra 227 til 124 per 1000 (se Tabell D1 i Skarðhamar, Thorsen og Henriksen, 2011, for tall som er direkte sammenlignbare med våre). this information is already cited in the report and is a statistic about the number of crimes committed by immigrants in Somalia ,this quote doesn't state that somalis afghans and turks are over represented in crime, that quote is not found n the report.

Blant innvandrere er overrepresentasjonen særlig stor blant personer med bakgrunn fra asiatiske og afrikanske land This quote from the Report dosent mention somalis but Africa and Asia, Africa and Asia are continents not countries or ethnic groups.

Figur 3.2" on page 30. It's the 15th entry from the bottom. Reference to people from Somalia are also on page 28 as per my first post. Those statistics are already cited in the article and the number of crimes are already mentioned, but the quote doesn't specifically mention that somalis along with Kurds and turks are over represented in crime that quote doesn't exist in this report--Kndnm64 (talk) 17:30, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

The report says that people from Somalia are overrepresented in the text on page 29: .. for de landgruppene som fremdeles har relativt høy andel gjerningspersoner – herunder Somalia og øvrige Afrika, Irak og Iran. One of my previous quotes the report says that 227 per thousand in the past could be added and that it's 124 per thousand now compared to 45 per thousand for the general population of Norway. A Thousand Words (talk) 17:54, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Finding other sources with the same information was simple: forskning.no: Flere innvandrergrupper ligger riktignok lavt på kriminalitetsstatistikken – under gjennomsnittet for befolkningen ellers. Det gjelder for eksempel innvandrere fra Kina, India og Filippinene. Samtidig har det vært kjent en stund at noen innvandrergrupper ligger veldig høyt. Det gjelder for eksempel innvandrere fra Irak, Kosovo, Somalia, Afghanistan og Iran. Considering how solid the SSB report is, there are likely more sources out there. A Thousand Words (talk) 18:11, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

that's strange because that's not what it says in the report

this is the full context justere for bosted (M3) gir ingen eller liten endring for samtlige landgrupper. Justering for bosted øker andelen gjerningspersoner noe fra enkelte asiatiske land, men endringene er små og ikke statistisk signifikante (se vedleggstabell B1). Overrepresentasjonen kan dermed ikke forklares med at flere innvandrere bor i storbyer.Å kontrollere for sysselsetting (M4) reduserer imidlertid andelen gjerningspersoner ytterligere for de landgruppene som fremdeles har relativt høy andel gjerningspersoner – herunder Somalia og øvrige Afrika, Irak og Iran. Å justere for sysselsetting reduserer andelen (dvs. øker underrepresentasjonen) ytterligere for land som Filippinene, India og Kina

and this is the English translate

to check for employment (M4) further reduces the proportion of perpetrators for the country groups that still have a relatively high proportion of perpetrators - including Somalia and other Africa, Iraq and Iran. Adjusting for employment further reduces the proportion (i.e. increases under-representation) for countries such as the Philippines, India and China

dosent speicifally state the above reference just that check for employment further reduces the proportion of the countries that still have relatively high proportion of perpetrators. this just says that if you reduce employment you can reduce the countries with high number proportion of perpetrators this doesn't specifically say that somalis are over represented in crime.

i am looking for a direct quote from the report that says somalis along with afghans and Iraqis are over represented in crime you have so far failed to supply this statement--Kndnm64 (talk) 18:38, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Finding other sources with the same information was simple.A Thousand Words

A Thousand Words we are not talking about other sources just the The Statistics Norway report please state the full context of the report --Kndnm64 (talk) 18:49, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Page 42 Innvandrere fra asiatiske og afrikanske land, herunder Afghanistan, Iran, Irak og Somalia, er mest overrepresentert. Took a while to realise you wanted this exact combination of people in the citation. A Thousand Words (talk)19:23, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

i kapittel 3 har videre vist at det er store forskjeller i andelen gjernings- personer blant innvandrere med ulike bakgrunn, og at mens innvandrere i gjennom- snitt er overrepresentert, finnes det både overrepresenterte og underrepresenterte grupper innad i gruppen av innvandrere. Innvandrere fra asiatiske og afrikanske land, herunder Afghanistan, Iran, Irak og Somalia, er mest overrepresentert. thats according to page 42 chapter 3 and lists a whole Number of countries of immigrants with high Number of perpetrators compared among other immigrant communities.

however according to chapter 5 ending page 57

Også innad i hver landgruppe – og da særlig i Asia – finner vi enkeltland som er både overrepresentert (herunder Tyrkia, Afghanistan, Irak og Iran) og underrepresentert (herunder Filippinene, India, Kina og Thailand).

according to the last chapter of the entire report immigrants over represented in crime are from turkey, Afghanistan, Iraq and Iran.So that means that immigrants from turkey Afghanistan and Iran commit more crime then immigrants from Somalia, and that somali immigrants are not amongst the over represented immigrant communities in Norway.--Kndnm64 (talk) 19:40, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

In the light of page 42, Somalis are among the most overrepresented, it's written clearly. Your homemade reasoning putting two different paragraphs in the wrong way violates WP:SYNTH. A Thousand Words (talk) 19:53, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

no your original statement was that somalis turks afghans are over represented in crime, but that's false compared to immigrant communities from Europe immigrant communities from Asia and Africa such as turkey Iraq Aghanistan and Somalia are among the most represented in crime--Kndnm64 (talk) 20:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

fra asiatiske og afrikanske land, herunder Afghanistan, Iran, Irak og Somalia, er mest overrepresentert. Personer med bakgrunn fra vesteuropeiske og nordamerikanske land, samt enkelte asiatiske land (herunder India, Kina, Thailand og Filipinene) er underrepresentert. Mønsteret blant norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre er relativt likt det vi finner for foreldregenerasjonen, men her har vi (grunnet størrelsen på denne gruppen) kun undersøkt forskjeller mellom foreldrenes fødeland delt inn i verdensregioner--Kndnm64 (talk) 20:18, 23 November 2019 (UTC). Figur 3.14 viser andelen gjerningspersoner blant øvrig befolkning, innvandrere og norskfødte med innvandrerforeldre fra de fire største regionene i utvalget vårt: Vest-Europa, Øst-Europa, Asia (inkl. Tyrkia) og Afrika. M1-M4 er definert som tidligere.

all this says is that immigrants from Asia and Africa such as turkey Afghanistan and Somalia are over represented in crime compared to immigrants from Western Europe and North America and some asian countries such as India China or Phillipines. Of course if you compare the two immigrants communities, immigrants from Asia and Africa with immigrants from Western Europe and North America, immigrants from Africa and Asia will have a higher number of criminals according to the report. Because western laws are similar to each other and laws from Africa and Asia are note similar to the laws found in Western Europe, hence why you have immigrants from Asia and Africa committing more crime then Western European and North American immigrants in Norway.--Kndnm64 (talk) 20:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

if a Western European moved to Somalia for example he would break every law in the book compared to native inhabitants such as morality laws, prohibition against alcohol as alcohol consumption is illegal in Somalia compared to an immigrant from similar countries close to Somalia that have similar laws such as Yemen or Djibouti. If you include that immigrants from Africa and Asia Afghanistan turkey Somalia are over represented compared to Western Europeans and North American immmigrants that would be reasonable .--Kndnm64 (talk) 20:18, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

If those are your personal opinions or ideas, please see WP:NOTFORUM and WP:OR. If they come from a source, please post the link to the source. A Thousand Words (talk)

Well then please add the full quote from the report WP:NOTFORUM and WP:OR. This is also applied to you And yes they do come from a source and I will post it here as well but you need to quote the entire report word for word. Also the fact that immigrants commit more crime due to cultural differences is well known in academia where its known as the cultural defense, and yes i can supply evidences for that Kndnm64 (talk) 21:42, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

You say Somalis commit crime in Norway due to cultural differences, please back it up with a source. Link and page number please. A Thousand Words (talk) 22:16, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

no but minorities and immigrant groups in general am sure this inlcudes somalis in Norway, and yes no problem fellow user have a look at this source from berkely unniversity https://scholarship.law.berkeley.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1716&context=californialawreview explains the context of cultral defence very well and i think its relevant to articles about minorities and immigrant communities committing crimes --Kndnm64 (talk) 22:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

per WP:GALLERY "There is consensus not to use a gallery of group members as the lead image for articles about large groups of people such as ethnicities

We're does it say I can't use a gallery of group members as the lead image of an ethnicity can you please supply this statement A Thousand WordsKndnm64 (talk) 19:08, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Check the edit summary. A Thousand Words (talk) 19:25, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

questionable statement Somalis were overrepresented when compared to the Norwegian population (45 out of 1000) and the average of all immigrants.[21]

A Thousand Words where is the evidence that Somalis on average commit more crime then other immigrant communities, please supply evidence of a direct quote found in the source--Kndnm64 (talk) 19:59, 25 November 2019 (UTC)

Article balance

I've tagged the article as not complying with WP:NPOV. Several concerns have been expressed above about the balance of the article, which is heavily focused on social problems that Somalis in Norway face. Unfortunately, I can't understand Norwegian, so I can't do as much as I'd like to address this issue. For those that do, however, some ideas for things that could be added to the article are coverage of research understanding why some of the social issues exist, the role of Norwegian Somalis in funding reconstruction in Somalia, remittance businesses, and famous Norwegian Somalis and their achievements. While Somalis in the United Kingdom isn't perfect, it might offer some inspiration in this regard. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Note that some of the concerns were raised by editors which are now blocked for abusing enWP, such as Kndnm64 and Sahasu. It may also be that UK and Norwegian authorities have different ideas on how social concerns are reported and if the sources are different, the articles will be different. Ergo, it is not a given that the Norway article should look like the UK one since the UK and Norway are rather different kinds of countries in terms of democracy, economy, social security, media climate and demographics. A Thousand Words (talk) 08:26, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I'm not arguing that this article should look like the UK equivalent, but that the latter might offer some ideas for things that could be covered in this article, which aren't at present. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:32, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I have to agree with you. Sadly, most Wikipedia articles about immigration or ethnic minorities in individual countries are tarnished by the political and/or cultural environment in that particular country because those most interested in the subject are from those countries - some of which don't have independent press to quote from. Deb (talk) 08:42, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Re: Norwegian Somalis, just to add that the current Prime Minister of Somalia Hassan Ali Khayre is a Norwegian Somali. --Kzl55 (talk) 09:39, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Cordless Larry, I will be watching this article from now on, and keeping an eye on the relevant "neighbouring" articles. You don't understand Norwegian? Neither do I!! Just run the articles thu Google Translate!! Do please try that, be careful about what you use, and chop off the least understandable 35% or so.. 2407:7000:9B26:2598:5806:4951:7FB5:513 (talk) 20:51, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for this useful advice from a completely new user. Deb (talk) 07:19, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

No specific issue has come to light in this discusison and therefore the template should be deleted. It can be re-added to the specific section. The fact that the article isn't "finished" isn't necessarily a balance problem, either. A Thousand Words (talk) 06:29, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Crime table

There are a few issues with the crime section. The statement that Somalis, together with Iraqis, Iranians and Afghans were the groups most overrepresented as perpetrators of crime doesn't seem obvious from Figure 3.2 on page 30 of this report. Secondly, the study seems to try and control for confounding factors and when it does that the gap in crime between Norwegian population and Somali-born population (as well as other groups) narrows considerably. The article even says For eksempel synker andelen gjerningspersoner fra Afghanistan fra 127,6 til 93,2 per 1000 (en reduksjon på 27 prosent), og for Irak synker andelen fra 125,3 til 102,1 per 1000 (en reduksjon på 21 prosent). Dette betyr at for disse landene henger overrepresentasjonen i vesentlig grad sammen med kjønns- og aldersstrukturen. Korreksjon for alder og kjønn gir også en vesentlig reduksjon i andelen gjerningspersoner blant innvandrere fra Litauen, Somalia og Irak... which translates to:

For example, the proportion of perpetrators from Afghanistan drops from 127.6 to 93.2 per 1,000 (a reduction of 27 percent), and for Iraq the share drops from 125.3 to 102.1 per 1,000 (a reduction of 21 percent). This means that for these countries the overrepresentation is significantly related to the gender and age structure. Correction for age and gender also results in a significant reduction in the proportion perpetrators among immigrants from Lithuania, Somalia and Iraq...

Age, sex and employment seem to be the main confounding factors. It tries place of residence but doesn't find much of an adjustment there. I'm honestly surprised someone decided to enter the raw stats without giving consideration to all these confounding factors.VR _talk 14:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Well spotted, VR. Are you willing and able to modify the article to reflect this? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:19, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

Editors aren't meant to draw their own conclusions from Figur 3.2, since there's an official analysis on page 42: Analysene i kapittel 3 har videre vist at det er store forskjeller i andelen gjerningspersoner blant innvandrere med ulike bakgrunn, og at mens innvandrere i gjennomsnitt er overrepresentert, finnes det både overrepresenterte og underrepresenterte grupper innad i gruppen av innvandrere. Innvandrere fra asiatiske og afrikanske land, herunder Afghanistan, Iran, Irak og Somalia, er mest overrepresentert. Personer med bakgrunn fra vesteuropeiske og nordamerikanske land, samt enkelte asiatiske land (herunder India, Kina, Thailand og Filipinene) er underrepresentert. But now that we are taking editor opinions into account: 1) If Figur 3.2 is studied closely it is apparen that the values for Filippinene actually increase which is like saying "yeah Filipinos really have a HIGHER crime rate". 2) This whole thing with "statistic compensation" is dubious and detract from hard fact. Since poor people are not only overrepresented as perpertrators but also victims of crime, should we adjust the vitimisation rate southwards due to income, in effect saying "it counts less when the poor are victims of crime". A Thousand Words (talk) 06:14, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Another way to look at "statistic compensation" is that every crime has a victim. So what "statistics compensation" say is that "if you're a victim of crime perpertrated by a criminal from a minority group, your injuries count less". Does this also hold true if the victim is from another minority or how does that work? A Thousand Words (talk) 06:18, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Controlling for other factors is a standard part of proper statistical analysis (think about how multiple factors are used to explain why some ethnic groups seem more susceptible to COVID). Of course explaining that multiple factors explain crime rates, not just ethnicity, doesn't detract from the hurt caused by crime - what a bizarre argument. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:49, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Imho, the most bizarre thing is that Filipinos have a "higher crime rate" after statistical compensation but there are of course different ways of looking at how statistical compensation is used, or not used. Nevertheless, the statement that Somalis, together with Iraqis, Iranians and Afghans were the groups most overrepresented as perpetrators of crime which was criticized by Vice regent is supported by the source. A Thousand Words (talk) 07:44, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Maybe so, but the point is that when other factors are taken into account, the degree to which they're over-represented apparently reduces. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:48, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

As far as I can tell from the graph none of "Somalis, Iraqis, Iranians and Afghans" are "groups most overrepresented". The bar from Kosovo looks higher than all 4 and the bar from Lithuania isn't far behind Somalia. And 1Kwords's argument for excluding statistical analysis done by the reliable source itself is rather bizarre. Cordless Larry I'll re-write that section soon.VR _talk 18:40, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

Do you have any official critique by any established experts or academics in the field? We are really supposed to use what the sources say. A Thousand Words (talk) 06:07, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

As far as I understand it, VR is just proposing to more fully reflect what the source already says, i.e. "Correction for age and gender also results in a significant reduction in the proportion [of] perpetrators among immigrants from Lithuania, Somalia and Iraq". Cordless Larry (talk) 07:33, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Using VR's interpretation of a graph in favour of the official analysis would violate WP:Synth: Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to reach or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. A Thousand Words (talk) 19:21, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

The fact that "correction for age and gender also results in a significant reduction in the proportion of perpetrators among immigrants from Lithuania, Somalia and Iraq" is explicitly stated by the source, if I've understood correctly. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:27, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that's correct, Cordless Larry. In fact, the source gives final numbers after applying such correction for each ethnic group. So we'd be using the source's own numbers and explaining their methodology.VR _talk 19:49, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

As per other articles

This is another article am "cleaning" which a user named 1Kwords wrote in a way potraying immigrants in a negative way. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MacrobianPrince (talk • contribs) 00:06, 14 December 2021 (UTC)

• I don't agree with this restoration.VR _talk 11:32, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

1Kwords was indeed a problematic and biased editor, but I don't think we should be indiscriminately removing all of their additions. Where the material is well-sourced and reflects the balance of opinion in the range of sources available, it should stay. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:17, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

I think the issue is that of WP:DUE-ness. If the material is taking a disproportionately large space in the article, it should be summarized/reduced to an appropriate size.VR _talk 23:00, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, this is sort of what I was getting at when I mentioned the balance of opinion in the sources. Not reading Norwegian makes it difficult though. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:18, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cordless Larry: checkout what I did at here. I went through sources that cover the topic broadly and then used them to determine the amount of weight to give. Would you agree with this approach?VR _talk 18:45, 21 December 2021 (UTC)

That's very comprehensive, Vice regent. I'd be sceptical that we can put a precise figure on how much of the article should be dedicated to any one aspect of the topic, but any form of systematic analysis of sources is welcome. Cordless Larry (talk) 09:34, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. How else can we decide on the amount? Clearly 1Kwords emphasized it too much, yet we both agree that it deserves some mention. So how to decide how much? VR _talk 09:42, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I think your approach is a good one - I was just trying to highlight that we can't necessarily be as precise as to put exact percentages on it. Trying to get an indicative sense from the sources (e.g. "about a quarter") might be better than precisely calculating (e.g. "it needs to be 26.5%"). Cordless Larry (talk) 10:55, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

I agree, thanks. I'm trying to promote this approach across a variety of articles and hope to someday see this approach written explicitly in policy. Too many wikipedians think the best way to determine weight in articles it to by their own perceptions of the subject, which I feel is problematic.VR _talk 12:22, 22 December 2021 (UTC)