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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by MarioGom (talk | contribs) at 09:01, 28 May 2024 (→Workshop: RFC on section title: Reply). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

This article has been mentioned by a media organization-BRD

I added In the War for Narratives Iran’s Regime Takes to Wikipedia by National Council of Resistance of Iran to this talkpage-template, and was reverted on that, "this is not a media organization, but a self-published post by the National Council of Resistance of Iran (an organization with at least one member banned by WMF T&S"

Reasonable people can disagree on what counts as "media organization" in this context, I thought it was close enough, though I tend to be a bit inclusionist on these things. I think of a political org's official website as a media org, in general. Not that it comes up in this context very often, most of it will be some kind of "news". Fwiw, the website has "News". If you have an opinion, please share. However, "an organization with at least one member banned by WMF T&S" doesn't matter in this context, but it's interesting info. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 12:47, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I guess that's fair. MarioGom (talk) 11:15, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Gråbergs Gråa Sång: As you note, it's a political party's blog. While it might contain media, that does not make it a "media site" by any standard definition of the term. WP:PRESS and the press template are strictly for press sources. Wikipedia:Wikipedia in blogs is the place for blog mentions. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:46, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The site has a blog-section, but afaict, the article in question is not there. Some political parties used to publish their own newspapers and magazines (maybe some still do), I don't consider this very different. But that's my view. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 17:34, 15 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Characterization as a cult

Hogo-2020: You reverted [1] my change changing the title of the section "Cult of personality" to "Characterization as a cult". Your rationale was While some sources use this term for the MEK, others don't. It is irrelevant that some sources do not describe it as a cult. Some do, and in-text attribution is used to note it. The section is not about "cult of personality". The content and the backing sources are way more broad and discuss the extent to which the organization can (or cannot) be characterized as a cult. It is simply incorrect to name this section "cult of personality". It does not match the content. It does not match the sources. MarioGom (talk) 18:00, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh God, the topic's back. Yes, it's described as a cult, but not a cult of personality. It wasn't one of these things where everyone hung the pictures of the leaders on the walls. Characterization is a more usefully descriptive/functional subtitle. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello MarioGom. I reverted your edit (didn't change the title as you say) because it was a deeply biased change. It is not irrelevant that other sources use the term "Cult of Personality". All reliable sources need to be considered, and if that's what's missing in that section, then perhaps we should be discussing that instead. I take it from the above comment that this has been previously addressed. If you're adamant about this change, we should look at those discussions as well as sources and determine what new information would support such a change. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:29, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hogo-2020: Do you realize that the section is not about "cult of personality"? Neither the content or the sources are about that. It just does not make any sense. Which title would you propose for this section? MarioGom (talk) 19:41, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also note that you are free to propose any other changes to the content, but trying to keep a title unrelated to the content is the kind of filibusterism that has plagued the 62 pages of archives already . MarioGom (talk) 19:43, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom, as already said, this looks like a deeply biased change because you're overlooking a major part of the literature. I will survey sources (also in the archives) and start a list here. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:10, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how the title is biased at all. The title is not "Cult", "Cult characteristics", or "This is a cult". "Characterization as a cult" is a fairly neutral heading for a section that discusses the sources that describe it as a cult, a politico-religious sect, etc. Some of these sources are as reliable as they can get, such as Ervand Abrahamian. But in any case, the heading "Characterization as a cult" does not preclude adding reliable sources that try to refute the others or represent a different viewpoint on the topic. MarioGom (talk) 11:11, 14 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you please say which sources use the title "Characterization as a cult" (or similar)? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:17, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a summary of the content. What would be your preferred title? MarioGom (talk) 07:35, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
How did you arrive at that summary? through which sources? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:52, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please, just see the content of the section. These sources state that the organization has characteristics of a cult, with different aspects being discussed. How would you call a well-sourced section that discusses the extent to which an organization is a cult or displays some characteristics of a cult? The exact title does not need to be in the sources, just like "History" or "Controversies" do not need to explictly come from the sources, as long as the sources discuss history and controversies. So, again, what would be your preferred title for this section? MarioGom (talk) 08:20, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I got your overall point: you think my proposed title is "deeply biased" and it's unlikely I can persuade you. That's why I wonder what would be your proposal, or if you think the current title is just correct. Given the track record of this page, this would likely need an RFC, but it would be unfair if it did not represent all options. MarioGom (talk) 08:27, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'm as confused as Mario about what you think is "deeply biased" here. I can't see any bias, and you haven't explained any bias. I see one, arguably inaccurate descriptive subhead that has been exchanged for a related, but less specific and objectionable descriptive subhead. I don't see where bias comes into it at all. All labels of "cult" are characterisations, and there "Characterisations as a cult" is a perfectly reasonable subhead. Your objections, on the other hand, are as yet entirely unexplained. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:47, 15 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom. This list of books use "Cult of personality".
  • Iran today : an encyclopedia of life in the Islamic Republic. Authors: Mehran Kamrava (Editor), Manochehr Dorraj (Editor). Publisher: Greenwood Press, Westport, Conn., 2008. Page 338.
  • Terrornomics. Authors: Sean S. Costigan, David GoldPublished March 16, 2016. Publisher: Routledge. Page 68.
  • Deadly connections states that sponsor terrorism. Authors: Daniel Byman. Publisher: Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 2005 Page 37.
  • Conflict in the modern Middle East : an encyclopedia of civil war, revolutions, and regime change. Author:Jonathan K. Zartman (Editor). Publisher: ABC-CLIO, 2020. Page 209.
  • The Iranian Mojahedin. Author: Ervand Abrahamian. Publisher: Yale University Press, New Haven, 1989. Page 255.
  • The Thousand and One Borders of Iran Travel and Identity. Author: Fariba Adelkhah. Publisher: Routledge, 2015. Page 270.
  • Iran Agenda The Real Story of U.S. Policy and the Middle East Crisis. Authors: Reese Erlich, Robert Scheer. Publisher: Routledge, 2016. Page 99.
  • Terrorist Argument. Author: Christopher C. Harmon. Publisher: Brookings Institution Press, 2018. Page 170.
My proposal is to have the section consider books like these. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:23, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
And the reason why I asked you where you got this title from is because I saw in the archives that it was proposed about 4 years ago by two editors that appear to be now banned from this topic, SharabSalam and Mhhossein. How did you arrive at the same verbatim biased title as they did? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:34, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Adding further sources, including discussion of "cult of personality" practices is still compatible with a title "characterization as a cult". On the other hand, a title "cult of personality" is not appropriate for a section that discusses broader "cult-like" practices, not limited to cult of personality. You are welcome to expand the section with further reliable sources, but expanding it with cult of personality practices does not really change my point about the title. In fact, some of the sources you bring up discuss cult practices beyond cult of personality, like Abrahamian. About your later question of previous discussions: yes, I have read many previous discussions over the years, and I'll never claim all my proposals are novel (as neither are yours), there's nothing wrong with that. MarioGom (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom. Your answer is rather compelling. I previously asked you how you had arrived at the title "Characterization as a cult", and you said you had not used sources but had read and summarized the content of the section: "It's a summary of the content", "just see the content of the section", "The exact title does not need to be in the sources". However the same verbatim title change proposal was made 4 years ago by two editors that are now banned and who used an unreliable source as the basis for the title change. Where things get compelling is that you never said you were reviving this proposal from 4 years ago, you said you had come up with this proposal by looking at the current content of the section. So how can both proposals (yours, and the one from 4 years ago by two banned editors using an unreliable source) be identical? Hogo-2020 (talk) 09:53, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you think I'm not acting in good faith, please, report this to an appropriate venue. Otherwise, would you engage assuming good faith in this discussion? I made the case for this proposal at great length here, and asked you some questions to try to build consensus (whether you think the current title is ok or not, whether you have another proposal, or what would you think would be appropriate options for an RFC), but you did not answer any so far. I'm not going to engage in de-railing this thread with a long exchange on this innuendo about whatever some other editor said 4 years ago. MarioGom (talk) 11:28, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom, I'm also interested in the content (I did answer about your proposal using sources, and I'm currently gathering additional sources that I will provide here soon). I'm also not interested in escalating this, but could you just please clear this up? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:58, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I answered already [2]. I'm not going to write a longer essay here about this. It's not relevant for this discussion. MarioGom (talk) 08:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
If you really want to go deeper on this meta discussion on my behaviour, my talk page is open. I think this thread should continue with the substance, and avoid shifting to meta-discussions that do not serve consensus building. MarioGom (talk) 09:02, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom, I have looked at sources in the article, archives, and Google Books. Here is the draft list I've put together so far. I'm looking for additional sources, do you have any? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:43, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hogo-2020: I have been compiling some sources in a sandbox. It is quite early work. I am also drafting a rewrite of the section, although I expect my title proposal to stand both with the current content or my proposed content.
To ensure our efforts are directed towards some possible resolution, would you mind clarifying if the current title ("Cult of personality") is your preferred choice based on your current understanding of the sources? Otherwise, do you have any other option in mind? MarioGom (talk) 12:42, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That being said, I think there's a misconception in your draft. "Cult" and "cult of personality" are not mutually exclusive. Some discuss "cult of personality" without labeling as "cult", while others discuss "cult of personality" as part of an explicit labeling as a cult. This is the case of Ervand Abrahamian, who you classify as "absolutely cult of personality", but he is the scholar describing the MEK most unambiguously as a cult (and yes, also discussing the cult of personality aspects). This can be seen in the following passages:
  • Abrahamian, Ervand (1989). Radical Islam: The Iranian Mojahedin. I.B. Tauris. p. 255. ISBN 978-1-85043-077-3. In short, the Mojahedin had metamorphized from a mass movement into an inward-looking sect in many ways similar to religious cults found the world over.
  • Abrahamian, Ervand (2013). Cronin, Stephanie (ed.). Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left. Routledge. p. 274. ISBN 978-1-134-32890-1. The Sazman-e Mojahedin-e Khalq [...] declared that the revolution had been betrayed, took up arms against the Islamic Republic, and, setting up bases outside the country, turned into a cult resembling medieval Shi'i sects. Its leader elevated himself into an infallible imam with the power to determine policy and reinterpret thirteen centuries of Islam.
As well as other works, including the following interview:
where he stated they stopped being a mass movement with Marxist roots and became basically a cult MarioGom (talk) 12:52, 20 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hello MarioGom. My list evaluates which terminology aligns with WP:DUE, which would determine if a potential title change is necessary. I will add your quotes to the list, but are you also able to find sources with other perspectives? Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:46, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As I said, there's a conceptual problem with that. "Cult of personality" is one aspect. Some sources discuss it as part of broader cult-like behavior. "Cult of personality" as a section title is not broad enough to convey that the section discusses what different sources claim about cult-like behavior, not limited to cult of personality. MarioGom (talk) 16:59, 22 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Analysis or synthesis about how certain authors discuss cult-behavior within the broader concept of "cult of personality" is a patent Wikipedia:No original research breach. My list displays quotes from reliable sources to determine what terminology and content aligns with WP:DUE, also including the sources you mention that discuss both "Cult of personality" and "Characterization as a cult" aspects. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have checked the most relevant sources, and I think you have done so too. I think the discussion is stuck because it is not a matter of reading the sources again, but an essential disagreement on how to interpret them, and how to conceptualize the different aspects. I'll start workshopping a possible RFC. MarioGom (talk) 14:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I have a few observations on the discussion so far. First, yes, the concept of "cult" in general is broader than just "cult of personality", so the latter does not adequately encompass the former. Secondly, in Hogo's source analysis, the "allegations" column is largely not allegations, but reliable and/or notable opinions. A good example is HRW, which is a reliable source in its own right. If they characterise it as a cult, that's a reliable characterisation. Finally, if it is purely a phrasing question, other formulations could be things like "cult-like attributes", "labelling as a cult", etc. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:14, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I understand people will have personal observations, but my list only displays quotes from reliable sources without any personal analysis or editorializing. If a source attributes claims as coming from critics, governments, or certain analysts, then that's how I have also listed them. For example the AP article has two contrasting opinions, one is by a critic and the other by someone rejecting that criticism. These are two contrasting opinions coming from the same source, and I've quoted them accordingly without any further appraisals. Hogo-2020 (talk) 07:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, of course those are opinions. Those are just statements by politicians. Those aren't the examples I gave. The voices of subject-matter experts, research organisations and independent bodies are not just opinions however - these are reliable, expert statements. Iskandar323 (talk) 11:38, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The source quotes them as opinions, and I'm doing the same. Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Workshop: RFC on section title

I intend to open an RFC to resolve the above discussion. It could be as follows:

== RFC: Section title for the current "Cult of personality" section ==

What should be title title of the section currently titled "Cult of personality" (permalink)?

  • Option 1: "Cult of personality" (statu quo)
  • Option 2: "Characterization as a cult"

Alternatively, if it turns out there are no further options, I can turn it into a yes/no question, along the following lines:

== RFC: Section rename to "Characterization as a cult" ==

Should the section currently titled "Cult of personality" (permalink) be renamed to "Characterization as a cult"?

What do you think? Are these the two options that we would consider? Is there any other? cc participants in the above discussion (Hogo-2020, Iskandar323). MarioGom (talk) 14:34, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps Hogo can respond to my final comment above first. Iskandar323 (talk) 16:15, 24 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello MarioGom. Before starting a RFC about the title, there are unresolved questions about the content of the section. For example the sentence:

  • The MEK has been described as a "cult" by governments and officials in Iran, the United States,[1] France,[2] and Iraq.[3]

My list shows how Owen Bennett Jones in The BBC and the AP article provide contrasting opinions, yet the sentence selectively represents only one point of view. That is one of several WP:NEUTRAL problems in the section. Would you like to help me clean it up? Hogo-2020 (talk) 10:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I think the section needs to be rewritten, but at least for my proposal, I do not think it would change the title choice. So I don't think we need to wait for or hold back content changes. That can continue its own editing cycle. For what it's worth, I'm drafting new content, which would open with the following paragraph (still work in progress): Whether the MEK can be characterized as a cult or not is a frequent discussion among scholars. Some of them, including Ervand Abrahamian and Michael Axworthy, consider that, after the Iranian Revolution, the organization became a cult.[4][5][6][7][8][9] Others, including Ronen A. Cohen and Eli Clifton, consider that the organization has some characteristics of a cult.[10][11] However, Cohen notes that these characteristics are common across military organizations in times of war, and that the MEK cannot be considered a cult.[10] I think the sentence you quote should be replaced as part of a rewrite, since I think it gives undue weight to declarations by some individual government officials, and scholar sources should have more weight.
Hogo-2020: I'm sorry for being repetitive, but back to the point: do you think all reasonable options for the title are represented? Or do you expect to support any other? Do you think the formulation of the RFC, as presented, would be neutral? MarioGom (talk) 12:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Hogo-2020: We are all volunteers and obviously you have no obligation to answer any question, but I have asked this many many times in this thread, without receiving any answer. I intend to keep answering your questions and concerns, but it would be really great if you had the courtesy of answering the most basic question I made (repeatedly): Do you think all reasonable options for the title are represented? Or do you expect to support any other? Do you think the formulation of the RFC, as presented, would be neutral? MarioGom (talk) 08:53, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
These are not useful sources. The BBC piece is half opinion piece itself, is not focused on the issue and merely recollects the uninformed opinions of anonymous soldiers. The AP piece just trots out a few opinions from politicians. There are much more serious, secondary, analytical voices to be referenced here. We don't need trivial, unfocused news clippings and opinions. Iskandar323 (talk) 14:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hello MarioGom: What is the reason for removing from the article the 13 sources that match the section title "Cult of personality"? Hogo-2020 (talk) 08:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please, see the edit summary: Several issues: 1) removes well-sourced content (e.g. cult characteristics), 2) misrepresents the RAND report, which describes cult characteristics (not just cult of personality), 3) completely unreasonable refbomb in the body. By refbomb, I mean an indiscriminate list of inline references, where some seem tangential, and there seems to be even duplicates. Although format-wise, it can be improved by using a citation bundle (many examples in this article). Also, please, use proper citation templates. Although my main objection is that the change misrepresents the RAND report, where you changed the quote, seemingly implying that the source discusses only cult of personality, when it goes way way beyond that. MarioGom (talk) 08:50, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have partially restored your edits. The one for the initial sentence. Reference selection and style can be refined later. MarioGom (talk) 09:01, 28 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ Jones, Owen Bennett (15 April 2012). "An Iranian mystery: Just who are the MEK?". BBC. Retrieved 12 January 2020.
  2. ^ "France lashes out at Iranian opposition group". AP NEWS. 27 June 2014.
  3. ^ Rogin, Josh (25 August 2011), "MEK rally planned for Friday at State Department", Foreign Policy, retrieved 25 March 2018
  4. ^ Abrahamian 1989, pp. 255.
  5. ^ Abrahamian, Ervand (2013). Cronin, Stephanie (ed.). Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left. Routledge. p. 274. ISBN 978-1-134-32890-1. The Sazman-e Mojahedin-e Khalq [...] declared that the revolution had been betrayed, took up arms against the Islamic Republic, and, setting up bases outside the country, turned into a cult resembling medieval Shi'i sects. Its leader elevated himself into an infallible imam with the power to determine policy and reinterpret thirteen centuries of Islam.
  6. ^ Vick, Karl (21 June 2003). "Iranian Dissident Group Labeled a Terrorist Cult". The Washington Post.
  7. ^ Axworthy 2008. "From exile, at first in Paris and later in Iraq, the MKO kept up its opposition and its violent attacks, but dwindled over time to take on the character of a paramilitary cult, largely subordinated to the interests of the Baathist regime in Iraq."
  8. ^ Moghissi, Haideh; Rahnema, Saeed (2013). Cronin, Stephanie (ed.). Reformers and Revolutionaries in Modern Iran: New Perspectives on the Iranian Left. Routledge. p. 300. ISBN 978-1-134-32890-1. After the revolution, they followed their eclectic ideology, mingling some socialist ideas with their interpretation of Islam, were brutally suppressed by the clerical regime and were reduced to a religious cult based in Iraq but with a large following in other countries outside Iran.
  9. ^ Goulka et al. 2009, p. 60. "In 1985, Rajavi announced that he had appointed Maryam Azodanlu, the wife of his close associate Mehdi Abrishamchi, as co-leader of the MeK. She would soon divorce her husband and marry Rajavi. Together, they would launch a new “ideological revolution” that would, over time, transform the MeK into a cult group."
  10. ^ a b Cohen 2009, pp. 44–46.
  11. ^ Cite error: The named reference Saeed Kamali was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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