Talk:Buffalo wing

Morningstar Farms product

Should there be a mention of the vegetarian analogue of buffalo wings? Smeggysmeg (talk) 00:55, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

No. No there shouldn't. 75.185.161.15 (talk) 00:57, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. I have never heard or seen a vegetarian Buffalo wing. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.195.223 (talk) 05:34, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Probably referring to buffalo cauliflower, I think it warrants a mention as an alternative preparation, they're quite clearly inspired by this dish. 72.39.35.188 (talk) 12:20, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Chicken wing -> Buffalo wings??!?

Why does chicken wing redirects here? I (and most people outside US) have never had Buffalo wings and am just looking for infos on the wings, certainly not an unimportant dish (to my non-US mind) made with chicken wings. --antilived^{T | C | G} 09:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree. It's just one flavour, and judging by the archives the only people who care are people from Buffalo. Get rid of the article and start an article on bar wings of various flavours and styles. Kyujuni (talk) 23:27, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree that buffalo wings are just one flavor of chicken wings, but buffalo wings themselves are a not-insignificant part of modern culture. Therefore, while some edits are worth discussion, I think buffalo wings in and of themselves still justify their own, much more targeted, article. Slackmaster K 07:50, 22 November 2016 (UTC)

However, using that reasoning, articles like Poutine, Cream tea and many other articles should be removed as well. After all, they are also regional or national specialties that many people may not experience in their daily lives. Shinerunner (talk) 11:19, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

are buffalo wings actually made from real buffalos?? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.108.120.98 (talk) 04:20, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

they are made from crunchy, raw, un-boned, real dead buffalo. 75.191.151.75 (talk) 00:37, 14 July 2011 (UTC)

The Poutine example - its more like if there was no article for french fries and anyone looking it up got redirected to poutine.Tehw1k1 (talk) 11:54, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Pfft. Buffalo wings are the reason there is an entry for chicken wings. Other than an anatomical mention of an appendicular limb of the chicken, Buffalo-style wings created widespread interest in wings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.230.195.223 (talk) 05:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree, this redirect should not be there. There are plenty of other styles of chicken wings. This article on Buffalo wings should make it clearer that Buffalo refers to the specific hot "buffalo" sauce. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.145.182 (talk) 04:21, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Is it true that wings used to be thrown away or used for stock? I had always preferred the wing when we had fried chicken, before I had ever heard of Buffalo wings. I find it hard to believe any part of the chicken was ever thrown away traditionally. Not even the feet. But the idea of putting them in hot sauce is nothing I head about until 1980. And the idea of not breading them before deep frying them was new to me until then also. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.249.246.183 (talk) 16:12, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

I agree with several other commentators in this section and other sections that the redirect isn't a good choice as there are multiple methods of preparing chicken wings. Firstly, even if it is buffalo wings were what popularised the preparation of chicken wings and they were simply thrown away before, the fact that there are many different preparations now means the redirect is no longer appropriate. It isn't the 60s. Second, as others have also expressed, I fairly doubt it's true that the wings were always thrown away and never prepared before buffalo wings. Perhaps the wings from smaller chickens like those normally I think used for buffalo wings were used less often in the US, but even in the US I would be surprised if KFC and other fried chicken stores weren't always selling chicken wings. Third, even if it is true that buffalo wings started the preparation of wings as food and they weren't e.g. used even for fried chicken in the US, it's still very unlikely they weren't used in other cuisines e.g. Chinese and a number of other Asian cuisines. The Chicken (food) article I linked to does mention chicken wings albeit only very briefly and mentions buffalo wings as the only example. It needs work, but it's still probably the best target at the moment. BTW I have left the redirects from Hot wings and Hot wing although IMO they too should be retargeted. Nil Einne (talk) 19:18, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

[1] supports the idea that chicken wings were already used for fried chicken in the US although buffalo wings may have helped their spread, particularly as a finger food around Superbowl time. Also, forgot to mention, but the discarding of wings would only be something that would happen when food began to be in more abudance. Nil Einne (talk) 19:32, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

I find it very strange that there are no articles on wikipedia about hot wings or prepared chicken wings in general, especially considering just how ridiculously specific this article is. 142.167.9.205 (talk) 05:00, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Agreed that chicken wing shouldn't redirect here. It should redirect to cut of poultry. Though it's true that Buffalo wings are a common style of preparation in the US, the primary sense of the term remains the cut itself. --Macrakis (talk) 21:21, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Buffalo wings IMO are a subset, in that they denote wings that are unbreaded and usually but not always double fried, and with a franks and butter sauce. What's the origin of breaded chicken wings? I think wings that are breaded with many choices of sauce qualifies as a different dish than strictly unbreaded wings with buffalo sauce. 72.39.35.188 (talk) 12:26, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Statement

In Buffalo wings are ALWAYS served with celery and blue cheese? Sure you have a source but it is little more than an ad. It is trustworthy? Do you think they did a study and found that there has never been a time that wings have been served in Buffalo without both celery and blue cheese? Just because you can find a site that make a sweeping generalization doesn't mean it has the credibility to be in an encyclopedia. 75.191.157.40 (talk) 09:22, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

You're correct about the statement too sweeping and broad. I live in the Buffalo area and the place I get wings from serves them with mini-carrot sticks and blue cheese. Shinerunner (talk) 12:38, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

The article, at least at this time, says that Buffalo Wings are traditionally served with bleu cheese and celery sticks. It in no way says that is how they are always served, just how they are TRADITIONALLY served. Some restaurants do use carrot sticks in addition to celery, or as a replacement (largely because they keep longer). That does not change the way it is traditionally served however. Jojuko (talk) 11:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

Ranch? RANCH?

I have taken the liberty to remove mention of ranch dressing as a traditional side for Buffalo wings. I know that there are parts of the country where this may be common, but blue cheese is THE traditional side - along with, of course, celery - for Buffalo wings. There are parts of the country where people commonly dip their PIZZA in ranch dressing (hell, I think they'll dip just about anything in it), but I don't think you're going to find it listed as a traditional pizza item in any reputable source. Speaking of sources, I could find no mention of ranch dressing in the source cited for that particular statement. 209.183.51.45 (talk) 09:18, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure who it is that is reinserting ranch dressing into the statement about traditional sides. I challenge whoever it is to show me where in the reference cited it mentions ranch dressing as a traditional side.

How about I save you some time? The following is a direct quote from said reference:

"Chicken wings in Buffalo are always served with cut celery and Bleu Cheese."

BTW...the source is the Anchor Bar (where the Buffalo wing was invented), so I'm pretty sure that they know of what they speak. 166.183.39.52 (talk) 11:06, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I just removed the mention of ranch being traditionally served with wings. It is not supported by the source, and is also completely untrue. Jojuko (talk) 05:37, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Removed mention of ranch being a popular alternative, traditional side. In a sentence about what is traditional it has no place and no source. This is an article about buffalo wings and ranch dressing has as much place here as steak-ums on the philly steak article. Both may be popular alternatives, but are not the traditional way of serving.Jojuko (talk) 16:32, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

I grew up in the south where Buffalo Wings are always served with Ranch Dressing. I will refrain from reentering it into the text until I can find sourced material on this subject. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.252.250.6 (talk) 22:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)

Buffalo wings are named after the city of Buffalo, where they were invented. Buffalo is in New York state, not the South. If I make country fried steak covered with grape jelly it still doesn't change how it is TRADITIONALLY made.Jojuko (talk) 08:48, 22 April 2010 (UTC)

But since chicken wings (Inexplicably IMO) redirect here, regional variants should be included. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 136.181.195.10 (talk) 14:32, 14 July 2010 (UTC)

I disagree. The fact that chicken wings redirects here has nothing to do with the subject of the article. If you want to have a list of regional dishes using the chicken wing, then write an entry on chicken wings. Jojuko (talk) 11:41, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

WHAT? No RECIPE!

This entry clearly limns the downside of Wikipedia. There is neither a gloss of a recipe, nor links to recipes. Why?69.232.157.143 (talk) 17:55, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia only lists encyclopedic content in the articles themselves (for reference, see What Wikipedia is not), but we have a sister project called Wikibooks which has a cookbook project for recipes. Currently, there is only a listing for a Buffalo Chicken Sandwich. There isn't a listing for Buffalo wings there or we would probably link to it. You can add a Buffalo wings recipe by clicking here. Hmmm...getting hungry. :)
⋙–Berean–Hunter—► ((⊕)) 19:24, 26 June 2009 (UTC)

eggxactly "That was a joke"

What did the slow tomato say to fast tomato? Wait so I can Ketchup "That was a joke" Kk bad boy (talk) 18:45, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Details about the chicken (meat) itself?

I'm thinking a relevant piece of information that could be included in this article is information about the actual chicken parts themselves ("wingettes" and "drumettes"?) I've always wanted to know if these were solely harvested from a specific maturation stage of the chickens, or if they were from specific species/breeds of chicken. Perhaps there are specific 'buffalo wing breeds' that are preferred over the type of chicken used for larger wings/drumsticks? Also - were there any details about the breeding/maturation process that might be relevant (IE - are they only fed certain types of grains? Are there different "grades" of buffalo-wing-chicken). Do farms specialize in raising buffalo wing chickens, or are they a byproduct of something else (reject runt chickens from the main stock for example)?
Domesticated om (talk) 05:51, 31 July 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good...let us know what you find out! 166.128.140.230 (talk) 04:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

There are no chickens bred for wings as of yet, or a specific stage, it is harvested the same time as the rest of the bird. When you buy chicken breast or legs, it still had wings while the bird was alive. It was a use for the chicken wings that were unmarketable other than for soup stock. They were free from most butchers and bars could turn around and provide them free to patrons, much like nuts or popcorn. There are three parts to a chicken wing, the drumette, straight, and tip are there proper names. If it has a single bone and looks like a drumstick it is a drumette. If the wing is flat with two bones it is the straight, not a wingette. The tip is the final piece and is not used as it is little but skin and bones. Jojuko (talk) 06:03, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

The spicy lunchtime encounter

US President Barack Obama was taken by surprise by the advances of an admirer during an impromptu visit to a restaurant in New York state. The spicy lunchtime encounter took place in New York state at Duff's Famous Wings. Diner Luann Haley stopped Mr Obama in his tracks with her comment: "You're a hottie with a smokin' little body." The president hugged the 45-year-old but warned that First Lady Michelle Obama would be watching. With a glance at the TV cameras, Ms Haley said: "That's all right. Hi, Michelle - eat your heart out!"

Removed as this is quoted verbatim from copyrighted sources.[2] Rewrite it if you believe this is encyclopaedic quality information. •Λmniarix• (talk) 14:22, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

Out of place

This sentence is out of place under the history section. Buffalo wings are used in competitive eating events, such as Philadelphia's Wing Bowl and at the National Buffalo Wing Festival. It's not related to the previous statements, and I can't find a better place to put it. --Cflare (talk) 18:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

Why not mention the name she mentioned? Don't censor things

It currently reads:

Teressa Belissimo cooked a batch before the camera, and mentioned that she was using a certain hot sauce brand hot sauce by name.

That sounds rather stupid. Anyone know the name she mentioned? Dream Focus 06:22, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, it's a little bit weird that I see no direct mention of Frank's Red Hot anywhere in the article. These days, all sorts of restaurant owners have their own varieties, but the classic Buffalo wing is made with Frank's Red Hot and butter. Currently the only hint at that fact for readers is in that Frank's is in the name of a couple of the references. I'm not sure I'd call it "censorship". I'm sure it was just intended to avoid what looked like a product endorsement. It's just that, in this case, it's more encyclopedic to actually say it. 139.57.100.63 (talk) 15:11, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

dont you think the article needs nutritional information like the average calories per dish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.42.184.81 (talk) 17:39, 28 November 2010 (UTC) Um. No.

Call them just "wings"?

buffalo wings refers to trying to imitate how wings are cooked in buffalo, wings refers to the real thing. no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.180.160.183 (talk) 00:02, 31 December 2010 (UTC)

"Mambo sauce" on wings IS NOT "Buffalo Wings"

No way wings made with this "mambo sauce" crap can be considered "Buffalo Wings" (or "Wings" in Western NY), the sauce needs to be Frank's & Butter or a redhot sauce similar to Frank's — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.230.251.71 (talk) 19:01, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

That's great, man (or woman), but you can't remove referenced information just because you don't like it--GroovySandwich 20:48, 29 July 2011 (UTC)

Sure, but just because something is referenced or even true does not make it relevant, unless you are some type of pedant who believes that any chicken wing ever served or eaten in or near Buffalo is a Buffalo wing. Heh. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.160.16.253 (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

Page title too specific

Should the page title exist as "Buffalo wings" instead of "Buffalo chicken?" Arguably, wings are no more common than other preparations, such as tenders. The title loses specificity, but gains inclusiveness. Now, dishes from buffalo chicken pizza to buffalo chicken grinders exist. Why not recognize these foods are all part of the same buffalo family? Bdresser (talk) 18:01, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

I disagree. The original and most prevalent use of "Buffalo" is with wings. Perhaps the use of the sauce with other chicken meat and in other dishes warrants a section in this article, but it doesn't deserve to share the title.Dukeofwulf (talk) 14:54, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Why not make more effort for alternative names?

Effort for alternative names can be expanded and improved. For example in an area of western Pennsylvania they are known as wing dings. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Richie678992 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Bellissimo or Lenz?

The article's summary box lists "Teressa and Frank Bellissimo" as the creators of this dish, but in the history section it refers to "Teressa Lenz." I looked at a few of the sources, and couldn't find any reference to the last name Lenz. I also looked at the linked article for Frank Lenz, and it doesn't appear to be related. I went back and looked at the revisions, and found this: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Buffalo_wing&diff=prev&oldid=482778515. It looks like this edit wasn't legitimate, since I'm also able to find references on Google to John Young related to wings, but all references to a Danial Gorsky appear to be plagiarized from this article. I reversed these changes. Dukeofwulf (talk) 15:11, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

Good call; thanks for fixing it! Powers ^T 19:20, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

The television section is extraneous.

I am going to remove the tv section if there is no objection here. The Today Show reference is not annotated and claims that Buffalo Wings were first mentioned on the Today show sometime "in the 80's"-- doesn't seem specific enough to merit inclusion. The couple of sentences regarding the Buffalo Sports teams drawing attention to the cuisine of Buffalo can easily be moved into the body of the article eliminating any real need for a "TV" section in this article. I am putting my future edit in this talk column to solicit other opinions of editors who care about this article. If there is a compelling reason for a TV section then I will not remove it. Thanks.Chekit (talk) 22:43, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

wingette? drumette?

My dictionary doesn't know these words. Are these real things? if they are, how come there is no wikipedia article on them? WHAT ARE THEY??? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.172.145.182 (talk) 04:27, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

The "drumette" is the first segment of a chicken wing, closest to the body. It's called such because of it's visual similarity to a small chicken drumstick (drum-ette). The next segment is called the "flat", and the last segment is the "pointer" or "tip". The first two are the ones typically used for Buffalo and other similar wing recipes. Hope that helps. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.42.167.33 (talk) 08:03, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

Búfalo wings?

Couldn't the name "Buffalo" come from the Mexican hot sauce called Búfalo sauce? I gather that this is a modern brand name of a sauce that's been around a while. Perhaps it's vice versa though. Still, seems like an odd coincidence....and Buffalo wings always struck me a more Southwestern in style than Northeastern. .45Colt 09:18, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Pretty sure that they came from the city they were made in... *facepalm* --Chethin (talk) 22:15, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

What would you say "Northeastern" style food is?--Mapsfly (talk) 00:37, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Ranch added to Variations

I did add ranch to the variation of wings to the potato chips section as ranch is the preferred among the western coast as the dipping sauce and many manufacturers do make the combination in conjunction with the blue cheese, I also added the fact that, whole wings are common, to the section providing the variation, as well as two sauces that have gained popularity over the last several years Habenero and Ghost Pepper. 71.49.172.125 (talk) 09:56, 13 September 2016 (UTC)

The sauce list is incredibly random with some of the most common flavors missing. Additionally, some flavors are randomly capitolized when they don't need to be. Potential error?Koharbuffalo (talk) 04:19, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

A new article on "Chicken wings" or rework this article into such.

It is utterly absurd that anyone searching for one of the most popular foodstuffs, across the globe, and almost every culture, is redirected to what is (outside the USA) a completely obscure regional method for cooking chicken wings.

Either there should be a separate chicken wing article, or this should be reworked almost entirely to include chicken wings, and perhaps list buffalo wings as one type of them - even as a very popular type in the US.

I realise this has been complained about before, but it seems that

A) these went no where,

B) these were made a long time ago.

I'll make a start at reworking the article over the next week or so.

78.149.209.252 (talk) 19:18, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

You could just change the redirect of Chicken Wing to Chicken as food and save yourself a lot of work. My view is that this article is about the history of a specific style of preparation for chicken wings. Another example of this is that while there is an article for Cheeseburger there is a separate article for a Jucy Lucy which is a regional variation of a cheeseburger that has a unique history. Shinerunner (talk) 20:41, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Shinerunner, but we'd have to make it clear in this article that a Buffalo wing is a specific type of chicken wing, as well as starting a section on chicken wings in Chicken as food. Bear in mind also that this discussion has occurred multiple times before, so it might be worth reviewing what people said in the past. Quasar G ^{t - c} 21:00, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Another option could be a list page similar to List of hamburgers that could highlight the international methods of preparing and serving chicken wings. Shinerunner (talk) 21:22, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

That could work, but I don't know if there'd be enough varieties to warrant a list article. Then again, I know very little about the subject at hand.

Funny thing is, the consensus of most of the past discussions has been to create a new, more general, article, but no one has actually bothered to do it. The initiative is just waiting to be taken, now. Quasar G ^{t - c} 21:51, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

I have been bold and made the following changes:

• The article about Buffalo wings is now at Buffalo wings.
• Chicken wing now redirects to Chicken wing (disambiguation), which starts off with the definition "A chicken wing is a cut of poultry including the wing." This means that the previous procedural objection that Chicken wing (disambiguation),should start with a link to Chicken wing is no longer sensible. Eventually the dab page should be moved to Chicken wing.
• Now someone can start a subsection of Poultry about chicken wings, which can eventually become an article. I wish the title of that article would be Chicken wings, but the US-centric crowd seems to consider that to primarily mean the Buffalo preparation....

--Macrakis (talk) 15:34, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

Macrakis – I agree with all these changes, but I'm also going to redirect Chicken wings to Chicken wing, and make sure the Buffalo wing article makes it clear that this is one specific type of chicken wing. Quasar G ^{t - c} 15:54, 13 April 2017 (UTC)

I think the changes are good and hopefully it will help with the expansion of existing articles or the creation of related articles. Shinerunner (talk) 08:56, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

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So did the Anchor Bar in Buffalo invent the Buffalo wing or is it still disputed?

The article's lead states the Anchor Bar in Buffalo invent the Buffalo wing, sourced to the Time mag. article, while the section on Origins states there is a dispute as to who first invented the Buffalo wing. So is there is a general consensus that it indeed was the Anchor Bar or is their still significant dispute as to it's original origins. If the latter then the lead/intro should reflect that, rather then taking sides in favor of the Anchor Bar. Just because one reliable source (Time mag.) say the Anchor bar invented it does mean, does not mean we get to ignore of RS's that says it's disputed. --Notcharliechaplin (talk) 23:52, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I am well aware of Wikipedia's rule against using 1st person testimonials as a "source" so I have not edited the article in any way. That said, I grew up in northern Wisconsin eating my grandmother's deep fried chicken wings (she called them "wing-dings" as well) which I would watch her slather in a home-made sauce that used rum, brown sugar, molasses, red chili pepper flakes, tabasco, and a couple of other spices who's names I no longer recall - and then reheat them in the oven to dry the baste a little, before serving.

Now, I don't know if they would qualify as "buffalo wings" but the taste was identical, as near as I can recall, when eating them today. During a trip through Buffalo, NY to visit Niagara Falls and the World's Fair Exposition in NY, in 1964, nobody ever heard of "buffalo wings" in that part of the country - or at least they weren't on any restaurant menu my family stopped at - but locally back in Wisconsin my granny's "wing dings" were a noted commodity where she worked at a local truck stop diner. They just weren't CALLED "buffalo wings", but no doubt many a trucker commented on their delicious taste to others they encountered on the road.

I point this out because it is a prime example of how media sources can cause a false narrative to become accepted truths. While I cannot PROVE I ate what might as well BE "buffalo wings"; (aka wing-dings), as a child well before the 1964 date established by TIME? magazine - which at the time was New York based and so had a closer nexus to Buffalo, NY and a possible bias to accept a local legend as fact as possibly just a "feels-good" human interest story and did not care one whit if it was true or not - when I read Wikipedia and see it presented AS "true", it begs the question of just how much of the things we claim are well-sourced are in fact not.

In the past encyclodepists might spend years or even decades tracking down the truth of a matter before allowing it's entry into their Encyclopedic Compendium of Knowledge. Today, especially with the internet, we all tend to just look it up with Google and ASSUME whatever we read is gospel truth.

Origin stories, especially those behind a commercial product, are often just a bunch of marketing malarkey made up to sell said product as a "down-home recipe" & have no relationship to "truth" at all. I would caution Wikipedia in large part against assuming that JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN FIND A SOURCE IN PRINT, doesn't mean it is FACTUAL. Unfortunately human beings LIE, for all sorts of good and not-so-good reasons (the recently UN-elected PotUS being a PRIME example), and often we never will have a way to determine an actual truth behind a "story" - particularly if the source is willing to swear on a stack of bibles that THEIR fictional account is in fact gospel truth.

Was "the Colonel" REALLY a Colonel? Did he REALLY invent a recipe for fried shikken? Did he REALLY have a pointy white beard, wear a white suit, and walk with a cane? Or are those all just Madison Avenue affectations to sell fried shikken franchises for hundreds of millions of dollars?

Jist mah 2 cents worth. IdioT.SavanT.i4 (talk) 21:24, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Why is this titled Buffalo Wing and not Chicken Wing.

The dish was invented in Buffalo, yes. No one in Buffalo calls them Buffalo wings. They are Chicken wings. Buffalo is a flavor. 216.248.100.66 (talk) 20:00, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

There are 43 references to the flavor-infused version of chicken wings invented in Buffalo that call them "buffalo wings." What it's called locally in Buffalo isn't really relevant, except maybe as an anecdote; the buffalo wings ship has sailed and that's what spicy chicken wings are called (everywhere else). Acroterion (talk) 21:39, 7 June 2024 (UTC)