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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Robbskey (talk | contribs) at 17:17, 18 June 2007 (→‎[[Template:LawinEurope]]). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Participants

We have reached 50 members, congrats to all. The newest member has a couple of concerns regarding the inclusion of a forensics agency in the project, as he/she is worried that it suggests they are affiliated with a law enforcement agency. I tried to explain that inclusion in the project means that the topic is related to law enforcement by content, not neccessarily that the subject is closely linked to specific law enforcement agencies, but I'm not sure how clear I was! I suspect he/she will post here soon SGGH speak! 10:50, 23 May 2007 (UTC) this is the article. SGGH speak! 10:58, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Never mind, I delisted the article after having another look a the scope. Congrats for the 50 members though! SGGH speak! 11:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yay 50, wonder when we will make 100? Congrats Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 10:31, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe one day soon! But for now lets get this project finished, only Serbia left to do now, plus the sub-regions and dependencies and so on. I will have a look today... SGGH speak! 14:00, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Roger that =) Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:05, 29 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Archived. Good job all with the Law Enforcement in Europe drive. I think Dep had an article he wanted people to look at after that? Something about equipment? SGGH speak! 12:40, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2nd FORWARD!

I propose a new forward.

TASK:

Create the Duty Belt article

MEASURES:

  1. What should we name the article?

e.g:

etc.

OR should we integrate it into Uniforms and equipment of the British police?

ALSO the Belt (clothing) article has some info on the duty belt as-well.

WHAT IS A DUTY BELT:

A duty belt is a belt which holds all the equipment a police officer requires to conduct his or her duties, several items which a duty belt may hold is:

For the UK cops:

  • Hiatts Speedcuffs
  • Extendable baton (mostly monadnock autolock)
  • PPE (personal protection equipment, eg. gloves, CPR mask etc.)
  • CS / OC / PAVA spray

etc.

For the "Cops with guns" cops:

  • Gun
  • Ammo
  • Mace or pepper spray
  • Handcuffs
  • Baton

and all the other random stuff

PICTURES:

Image:Police Duty Belt.jpg My duty belt Image:Hiatts Speedcuffs.jpg Hiatts speedcuffs

I will try and get some more pictures and UK and US cops duty belts.

Found these in the commons, not that great, but meh:
Robbskey 15:33, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Other than that quite good Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:44, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

How about this one:
^Looks like this pic has been tagged as a possible copyright violation. Robbskey 15:35, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:49, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I like those, you can see their Glocks. Have they got speedcuffs also in the second one, the officer on the left? Robbskey 15:55, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yea the officer on the left has the speedcuffs to the left of his CS spray in the Condopolice photo Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 16:01, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Image:GMP Police.JPG -- Not the best picture in the world, but you can see my kit. Read the summary of the picture! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Image:Another Duty Belt.jpg Another side on duty belt picture! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

IDEAS:

^Dang that is crazy. Robbskey 17:43, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

QUESTIONS:

Don't be afraid to ask me or SGGH

TO DO:

  • I have mentioned about the belt keepers but some officers use velcro inner belts, see the PDF Canadian source above ^ done
  • "Equipment on the belt" section to get more detailed done
  • MORE IN LINE CITES :O SGGH speak! 18:08, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • More work in history section which i have started
  • Some officers have now switched to having their radios on klick-fast docks on their stab vests, does this need a mention?

COMMENTS about the 2nd FORWARD

Check out the articles talk page at: Talk:Police duty belt

Regards Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:14, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Don't put it in Uniforms and equipment of the British police, because other police officers have duty belts. SGGH speak! 14:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh yes correct, my mistake! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My vote would be for Police duty belt SGGH speak! 14:36, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yea not too short or too long Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:42, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have created the article, you can pop along if you like =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:54, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lets see if we can get this article to FA, i have always dreamed (i haven't literally dreamed) of getting one of the articles i created to FA status. =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:10, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One thing at a time, but I'm sure you'll get it to FA one day :) SGGH speak! 15:15, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry im getting carried away again =[ Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:25, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What do you mean gun for US cops? Aside from the point that many more countries arm their cops (weird, just looked out the window as some armed NYPD strolled by) but my main point is.... where do you Dep, carry your gun and ammunition? SGGH speak! 19:37, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't carry a gun anymore but when i did it was on my right side in a holster. My taser was in a drop down leg holster and my ammo was right behind my speedcuffs =] but all that has gone now =] my belt is considerably lighter! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:17, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What gun was it? SGGH speak! 23:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Let me throw in a guess, Glock 19? Robbskey 00:09, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
ooo close! but it was a Glock 17, i also had an MP5 Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 08:41, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Heavily armed robocops marching down a street in Manchester :P SGGH speak! 14:56, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Or in an ARV. So that other officers could indentify which cars were ARV's they had red squares about 12cm by 12cm on the front, back and sides. It may be different in your force Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:00, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Did you handle any rifles? Robbskey 15:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I used to use a Heckler & Koch MP5, which had like loads of lasers and lights on it =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:38, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well now I'm just getting off subject, but I've always liked the Heckler & Koch UMP, just cause you can have it chambered for the .45. Robbskey 15:52, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, anyway I have composed a 'to-do' list of things that, i think, are required in the duty belt article. ^ above Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 18:03, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the award for helping is going to be my golden speedcuffs award! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 19:21, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Terta radio? What about Airwaves? SGGH speak! 19:50, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh yes and airwaves aswell, ill add that in, which radio does your force use SGGH? Motorola or Sepura or anything else? Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 19:52, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's just called airwaves by us so I have no idea, give me a month or so to have a uniform fitting and I'll tell you :P SGGH speak! 20:11, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Okey dokey. Looking forward to it =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:17, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm impressed with how much you managed to get into the article, and how many images you have! SGGH speak! 22:54, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

AAHHH It's even bigger now, Chachu has added loads. SGGH speak! 23:03, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ive done about the baton holder and key holder but theres more to come!! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:55, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When we've done a bit more on it, i'll nom it for a peer review then if thats good, i'll go for GA status. The article is excellent! very proud! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:49, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You should be, tis impressive SGGH speak! 20:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A suggestion, should perhaps 3.9 British police and 3.10 Police in the United States be under a new subsection of "equipment" called "typical loadouts" or something? they don't quite fit in with the other sections above them as they are, I don't think SGGH speak! 21:01, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yea good one! Alot of officers have their belts setup more or less the same way! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Does anyone know about the history of them? This image here shows that at least the British officers didn't wear them in 1919.
Women (WPC) used to have a handbag where she would keep her baton. women batons were smaller than the mens. and men used to keep them in the pockets of their tunic etc. Details a little bit sketchy Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:49, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Still, history of the duty belt's use would be a must for FA, I will try to find some sources for you. SGGH speak! 15:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There you go, found a couple of good published sources for you and cited to them on about 9 occasions :) SGGH speak! 15:30, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good stuff, i remember reading somewhere about equipment officers had in the good'old days but i cant remember were i read it!! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:48, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here we go [1] GMP's brief, at bottom of page 11 - some things on equipment, NB. here aswell [2] history of the GMP, on page 7 under 1994 its says about equipment belts Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 16:19, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is only half related, but I can't find a mention of the term "stabbie" on Uniforms and equipment of the British police... SGGH speak! 22:02, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Law enforcement by country

There is no value in adding this category to articles about specific law enforcement agencies. It should only be added to articles about generic law enforcement in specific countries, which was what it was originally used and intended for. Adding it to agency articles duplicates the country categories and will not tell a reader browsing the cats anything at all, since the articles are not being categorised "by country" (e.g. Militsiya is not law enforcement by country - which country?; Law enforcement in Serbia is law enforcement by country as the title implies; this is the usual useage of "Foo by country" categories). Since agencies will already appear under the appropriate "Law enfocement in Foo" category, which will itself be a subcat of "Law enforcement by country", they do not need to appear in the supercat too. Frankly, I think the supercat should only be for subcats in the first place. not individual articles, which are better off under the more specific category. -- Necrothesp 19:04, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Argh, please dont tell me i have to go and remove them all =[. I wish someone told me before i did it. Anyway no harm done, i have learn't a lesson Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 19:12, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I did it too :( oh wells SGGH speak! 10:13, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And an added note, I notice that one editor has been moving articles about specific agencies to generic articles about law enforcement in a country. There is no reason to do this. Every law enforcement agency should have its own article as well as the generic articles. -- Necrothesp 21:59, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, have the moves been undone and the user messaged? SGGH speak! 23:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

North America

Maybe we can fill this one out after the duty belt FORWARD? Robbskey 23:47, 3 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yea, you can manage that forward if you like Robbskey? Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 14:40, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Really? Well heck, if you think so. Robbskey 16:53, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Law enforcement in Saint Lucia and Law enforcement in Saint Vincent and the Grenadines started. I can make some headway on these while the ones who really know about police belts hammer that one out. Robbskey 18:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Righty oh! =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 18:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Kintetsubuffalo has been doing a lot of work on this. Maybe I should make an award. Robbskey 15:04, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You could use one of our awards on the Templates and awards subpage. Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alright, good idea. Robbskey 15:09, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Burbank-Glendale-Pasadena Airport Authority Police

The article Burbank-Glendale-Pasadena Airport Authority Police was speedily deleted after I had added two references about the arrest of a celebrity by airport police. Perhaps someone with more access to information about southern California might consider recreating and expanding the article. --Eastmain 14:14, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What sources did you use? SGGH speak! 14:26, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I found Burbank-Glendale-Pasadena Airport Authority Police which should be all you need to get it kept on wikipedia (though we will want to expand on that of course) I don't see why it shouldn't be re-created, but I have messaged the deleting admin just to check there wasn't some other reason :) SGGH speak! 14:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Though to be fair it does only have 34 officers I can see why it might not seem notable. SGGH speak! 14:34, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm, i dont think that would meet WP:N, although i would liked to be proven wrong! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 16:20, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Here's a fun fact, Andorra only has 50 police officers. Hey, researching for those articles had some hidden benefits! Robbskey 16:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
DYK it when you create the article! SGGH speak! 20:28, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored the article. I don't really think it meets speedy deletion criteria. Seems to be a perfectly reasonable article to me. -- Necrothesp 22:11, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if it should be perhaps merged into Bob Hope Airport? SGGH speak! 11:25, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I would personally keep it as a separate article. I have no problem with law enforcement agencies, even small ones, having their own articles. However, it's possible an AfD may disagree with me! -- Necrothesp 12:54, 5 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

New Shortcut

There is a new shortcut for this talk page, it is WT:LE

The main project page is still WP:LE

This will hopely make it easier to direct people to our talk page!

Regards

Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:17, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Check SGGH speak! 20:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Check mate Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:31, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
King me! Robbskey 20:32, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
:D SGGH speak! 20:59, 4 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Boston Police Strike

The 1919 Boston Police Strike finally has its own article! SGGH speak! 21:35, 6 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ooohhh...nicely done. bobanny 04:54, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
All is quiet on the WP:LE front... SGGH speak! 20:53, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
mmm yea, ^^^^ good article! =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:58, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
American Polygraph Association created. Should all articles created from the Wikipedia:WikiProject Law Enforcement/Requested articles page be tagged with the {{Law enforcement}} tag? Robbskey 21:36, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, not all the articles there were added by people who know the scope, so give the scope a once over before you tag :) SGGH speak! 21:55, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ok good, thanks, that clears that up. I didn't think that seemed like law enforcement type material. Robbskey 22:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Lee Baca

I have added this article to the watchlist-it's been getting all sorts of spam and crap thrown into it because of the Paris Hilton thing. Please watch. Chris 22:27, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I semi protected it for you to tide it over until the paris hilton thing calms down SGGH speak! 23:07, 10 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Right, ill be keeping an eye on that article, even though its protected! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:11, 11 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Special police and Special police force

I've suggested these two pages (Special police & Special police force) be merged. Both are small pages of lower quality which are comprised mostly of lists; both describing the same thing. akuyumeTC 02:43, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yep merge them =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 15:10, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Has been done by the looks of it SGGH speak! 11:43, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Law enforcement in the United Kingdom

...has no image of a UK police officer. I can't get a uniform for at least a week or two but there must be other UK officers out there who have a camera and could create a suitable image? SGGH speak! 11:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I just woke up and I was glancing around for picture ideas and saw this website listed as the official website on the Metropolitan Police Service page, did it get hacked or somethin? Robbskey 12:24, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Nevermind, here's the actual website. Better fix that. Robbskey 12:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

6 months

Just realised I've been "leading" this project for 6 months now since I found it, does anyone want to swap leaders or anything? It's not too difficult a job as it has excellent supporting users, but it might avoid a wikatorship... SGGH speak! 20:36, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nah, you've been a great leader and you should continue to do so! Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 20:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Mmm, I don't know, if history teaches us anything, it's that no leader should serve indefinitely. (Read: I agree with Dep.) Robbskey 22:16, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing! =] Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 12:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well if anyone wants a crack at it let me know :) SGGH speak! 20:57, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Ahh, go on then, we only live once! You dont mind SGGH? Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 22:31, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't, no. Let's leave it a couple of days to see if anyone else says something shall we? If not, how about changing over 00.01 tuesday morning, GMT? I.E. On Tuesday you'll be head... whatever it's called... coordinator? How's that sound? SGGH speak! 23:08, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yep sounds good too me =] Anyone want to veto this? Dep. Garcia ( Talk + | Help Desk | Complaints ) 23:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know, I'm a little uneasy about this. (Sorry, I just haven't had many opportunities to be sarcastic lately) Robbskey 00:30, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:LawinEurope

I suggest replacing all the "Region name|Law enforcement" in templates with a version of the above for each region, because it works far better in a number of ways, notably because we can get around redirects to articles which arent called "law enforcement in_____" just copy and paste what is in the above and change all the names and saveit in Template:Lawin____ :) let me know if you need any help, or post it in WT:LE SGGH speak! 12:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If someone wants to tackle that, be my guest, that's not my strong suit. Chris 20:07, 17 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

:::Here we go, we now need to replace all the "North America|Law enforcement in" templates with {{Template:LawinNorthAmerica}} to produce the following:

Template:LawinNorthAmerica

SGGH speak! 10:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

All done and uploaded, remember to use the above template, {{LawinNorthAmerica}} on all the new articles. SGGH speak! 10:14, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:LawinOceania

Has also been done, and all the articles on it now have the new template, which is {{LawinOceania}} SGGH speak! 11:01, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:LawinSouthAmerica Also done this one, it's {{LawinSouthAmerica}} SGGH speak! 11:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There are three two left to do at the bottom of the requested articles section. If someone else is going to have a go just copy the text from one of the above and modify it to make sure they are all of the same standard, and ahve a read through it so you can see how it is done. SGGH speak! 11:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A number of these articles are very short, and some have notability tags so we need to get that sorted. SGGH speak! 11:56, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:LawinAsia

{{LawinAsia}}
Whew. Will you give this a once-over look SGGH? Robbskey 13:42, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I've added it to all the articles and it works fine, good stuff :) SGGH speak! 14:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Guess I'll get crackin on the last one, unless you want that high honor. Robbskey 14:34, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No thanks, you got for it :D SGGH speak! 14:49, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I noticed this these template placed at the bottom of the Police article. [3] With them all expanded out, I agree that it's too much. But, we can make the templates collapsible, where the details are hidden by default but can be "shown". Would anyone mind if I tried that, to see if/how it might work? --Aude (talk) 14:50, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That was me just trying it out. I was hoping they could be put in with drop down things as you suggest. Good idea, if you tried that that would be excellent. SGGH speak! 15:12, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Another suggestion is that these template be named {{LawEnforcementinAsia}} instead of {{LawinAsia}} (sounds like something to go on Law of Japan and not Law enforcement in Japan), just to be clear. Now, I know on articles like Law of Japan, they use the {{Asia topic}} template and not anything specific to Law. But we should be specific nonetheless. --Aude (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Go ahead and rename the template if you don't like the name, but I have created {{LawEnforcementinAfrica}} which has the show/hide feature. And User:Aude/Sandbox6 shows what it would be like to have all of these templates included. With them collapsed, I don't think it's too much at the bottom of the Police article. --Aude (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Template:LawinAfrica

{{LawinAfrica}}
Whew again. Robbskey 15:41, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Good stuff, though someone needs to use it to replace the existing template in all those articles. I don't think we need to rename them, template names are more of an administration and organisation thing anyway and we are the only ones who will really need to use them, plus the current ones are nice and short :D SGGH speak! 17:00, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm on it. Robbskey 17:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Done. Robbskey 17:17, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Policing by country

This template:

Template:Police by country

Is surely redundant considering the work we are doing above, I vote we delete it, remove it from the pages on which it currently resides and replace it with the relevan regional template from the above collection. Please see its old AFD. Note, if we agree here I think we still have to take it for AfD, but due to its complete redundancy it will surely be deleted. Discuss below:

Please copy your concensus over to Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2007 June 18 SGGH speak! 17:06, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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