Talk:Food

For older discussion, see /archive.

Fictitious food

Where does fictitious food such as soylent green fit in?

-- Probably under science fiction where it really belongs - it was a truly excellent film for its time. You might also annotate it under cannibalism... sjc

This could also be food symbolism, I am not sure if there is a topic on food symbolism in movies or other cultural media mediums.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:02, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

what about strange food like escargot, dog, cat, horse, snake, monkey?

some people find pleasure out of eating these different types of animals but i still want to know hy and what's the story behind it?... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 85.154.6.211 (talk) 12:25, 17 March 2007 (UTC).

These food items are not strange to certain cultures, so saying they are strange is not appropriate. The mention of cultural food taboos of certain cultures finding such foods inappropriate might be more appropriate.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 14:08, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

If you're just wondering in general, and not suggesting a change to the article, you could try asking at Wikipedia:Reference_desk. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 15:30, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Recent Vandalism

Can we get some protection here? This page is being constantly vandalized now Korrybean 02:41, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

In this article there are differing spellings (e.g. "flavor" and "flavour") and differing uses of the serial comma (i.e., some series have them, others don't). Should we adhere to one standard? Shiggity 17:06, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

History

I don't have the time to do a full GA review, so I don't want to fail the article, but it needs to be pointed out that the article can't be considered broad in its coverage unless there's at least a minimum on food history and culture. Overall, there's way too much focus on the legal and corporate aspects of food, making it a slightly dull read. The marketing section, for example, is really tedious. Try to cut down on stubby sub-sections overall.

And do try to separate sources from the notes. Go for shorthand notation in "Notes" and make a separate list of each of the sources used in a "References/Sources" section below. That way one can get a quick overview of the works used. And try not to limit this to just the print sources.

Peter ^Isotalo 12:04, 6 May 2007 (UTC)

Yes, the way the notes are placed into the article at length make for very difficult editing. I think I will try to make some sense out of them, although it may take me some time. I'd like to see a food taboo heading in here, and a food in popular culture as well (although not under a history heading).--Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:07, 26 May 2007 (UTC)

GA failed

I have reviewed the article according to the GA criteria and have failed the article based on the following issues.

1. Expand the lead, it should probably be around three paragraphs. Summarize the majority of the sections if possible. Look to WP:LEAD for further explanation.
2. "Almost all foods are of plant or animal origin, although there are some exceptions." Either expand on this information or incorporate the information into another paragraph. Seeing that it is an intro sentence, it would be better to expand on it.
3. Add a wikilink for mushrooms in the "Other foods" section.
4. Inline citations go directly after the punctuation; go through the article and make sure all occurrences are fixed.
5. Convert the information in "Legal definition" from a list to prose.Strike-through text
6. "Sustainable agricultural" Sustainable doesn't need to be capitalized. Same goes for "Organic farming".
7. Again, go throughout the rest of the article and make sure no single sentences are standing alone.
8. "This has greatly affected world food trade." What is "This"? Specify.
9. "For example, fifty-six companies are involved in making one can of chicken noodle soup. These businesses include not only chicken and vegetable processors but also the companies that transport the ingredients and those who print labels and manufacture cans." Move the inline citation after the first sentence instead of the second one, if it covers the information.
10. "Sometimes, also, food aid provisions will require certain types of food be purchased from certain sellers, and food aid can be misused to enhance the markets of donor countries." Remove ", also,"
11. "Discovery of techniques for killing bacteria using heat and other microbiological studies by scientists such as Louis Pasteur contributed to the modern sanitation standards that we enjoy today." Reword "we enjoy today"; doesn't sound very encylopedic.
12. "This was further underpinned by the work of Justus von Liebig whose work led to" Work is repeated twice, reword.
13. "For instance, tiny amounts of food in the air, too minute to be smelled, have been known to provoke lethal reactions in sufficiently sensitive individuals." Minute was used in the sentence before it; replace on of the instances to allow for more variety.
14. "Most patients present with diarrhea after ingesting certain foodstuffs, skin symptoms (rashes), bloating, vomiting and regurgitation." This sentence seems to be missing a few words, reword it.
15. "Rarely, the food allergy chelce can lead to..." What is "chelce"?
16. "Rarely, the food allergy chelce can lead to anaphylactic shock: hypotension (low blood pressure) and loss of consciousness. This is a medical emergency." Combine the two sentences.
17. "Kosher foods are permitted by Judaism" Kosher isn't capitalized.
18. Fix the external links, they aren't formatted properly. Also there is an extra bracket at the last link.
19. Some of the section headings and subheadings aren't properly formatted. I don't think that "Famine and hunger" and "Food safety" and the other editors should be subheadings of "Food trade". Go through the table of contents and see how the headings should be formatted.
20. Other sections that should be mentioned: obesity (this is barely mentioned and could use some more expansion), cooking (using ovens, barbeque, raw food such as sushi) restaurants (this is very important for food; a whole section could probably be devoted to this or at least a paragraph (buffets, fast food, high-quality restaurants)).
21. More images should be added for the last half of the article. Go to some of the pages for the wikilinks and I'm sure that some useable images will pop up.

Add inline citations for:

1. "In fact, the majority of all foods consumed by human beings are seeds." Is the inline citation at the end of the paragraph for this? If not, then add an inline citation for this statement.
2. "Fruits are made attractive to animals so that animals will eat the fruits and excrete the seeds over long distances." Add inline citation.
3. Many cultures eat honey, produced by bees, and some cultures eat animal blood.
4. There are two basic views of food marketing: production focus and consumer focus.
5. There are three steps to both developing and extending: generate ideas, screen ideas for feasibility, and test ideas for appeal.
6. The two most common factors leading to cases of bacterial foodborne illness are cross-contamination of ready-to-eat food from other uncooked foods and improper temperature control.
7. In profitably pricing the food, the manufacturer must keep in mind that the retailer takes approximately 50 percent of the price of a product.
8. Commonly food allergens are gluten, corn, shellfish (mollusks), peanuts, and soy." Also, should it be "Common"?

I am going to fail the article for now as this seems like a lot of work to do and the article will be signficantly changed if the above issues are addressed. A lot of the sections just hint at the information and coud use a lot more expansion. The current article is at 38kb or so, but I think it sounds reasonable for the article to be expanded. The article is very broad, which is good, but still needs to cover more things, as food is a very wide topic to cover. Once you have addressed the above issues, consider getting a peer review or having a third party look over the article before renominating. If you disagree with this review, you can seek an alternate review at Good article review. If you have any questions, let me know on my talk page and I'll get back to you as soon as I can. --Nehrams2020 07:05, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the detailed recommendations! I'm sorry it didn't pass, but your comments are very helpful. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 15:35, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

The Food Marketing Mix and the Four Ps of Marketing

I would recommend removing this section entirely. It contains 4 stubby sub-sections, and mostly unreferenced material, both reasons why the article didn't make "good" status. One reviewer above suggested cutting down on the marketing information, as it's "tedious", and I agree. Marketing is covered in another section as well. Would anyone object to my removing this section? – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 20:47, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

P.S. I also think the "external links" section is unnecessary. It's good to link to "food" on Commons and Wikibooks, but the Food Network and the ADA? I don't see why any of these are anything more than tangents. In my opinion, the don't belong unless they are used as sources. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 20:58, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

P.P.S. I went ahead and made these changes. Please complain here if you think that was a bad idea. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 21:11, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if the section is necessary as it is just a repeat of information found the food marketing article and seems a bit unnecessary. Maybe just an explanation of the four P's.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 21:28, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

To-do

I just added a to-do list at the top of this page. Please strike off items as they are completed, and feel free to add items as necessary. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 00:04, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Reasonable references

The list of sources is already huge and we haven't even started on history and culture yet. Could we try to limit the list at least somewhat? Sources like The Barbecue Bible and Endurance, Exercise and Adipose Tissue could most be replaced with more general ones (perhaps already in use?). And it doesn't seem entirely reasonable to specifically cite extremely general statements like "Although humans are omnivores, each culture holds some food preferences and some food taboos."

Peter ^Isotalo 13:55, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I was tired and just grabbing whatever book was in reach last night when I worked on the cooking section, I pointed it all appropriately to Davidson in the Oxford Companion to Food. Were you planning on working some history into the article?--Christopher Tanner, CCC 17:20, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Good point about the excess cites. But about citing general statements, WP:CITE says "All material that is challenged or likely to be challenged needs a source." It may seem obvious to a sociologist that all cultures have food taboos, but many laypersons may be surprised at such a sweeping statement. ("You mean all cultures have food taboos? It's not just mine?") Of course what's "likely to be challenged" is debatable, but we'd like to get this article up to featured status, so I'd rather err on the side of overciting, rather than underciting. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 18:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, especially on the food taboos and cultural ideas. I have been removing many of these from the cuisine pages, stating that eating horse meat isn't common, or that escargot, balut and other such items are odd. They aren't to those cultures, and thus not always common knowledge and open to a reader's own POV.

Specific claims should generally be cited, but it seems quite excessive for claims like "(food) taboos exist everywhere" or "most cultures have a recognizable cuisine". These facts are just so basic that even general ignorance can't be considered a good reason to add footnotes to them. We're not talking knowledge that is confined to scholars of a specific discipline, and above all, the people who would question these facts are not the ones who will bother to check sources. At the very least one should wait for someone to make a genuine, articulate challenge of it. That would not include fellow editors formulating meta-criticism based on specific readings of policy documents. But my main quibble in the first post was actually the list of cited works. We haven't even gotten to culture and history and we're already past the 40+ mark. That's not a good thing for any article.

And yes, I'll try to try write a paragraph or two on food history soon, but I have to spend some time at the library first. I'm going to try to limit myself to a few general sources.

Peter ^Isotalo 20:20, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I certainly agree with you position Peter, I haven't had time lately, but I am going to try and go through to consolidate the information into less sources even further. We should stop adding sources and try to look into the ones we have here already. I have taken a little break from editing the article for right now as I am helping out with a food styling conference and then have a couple clases early in the week. I should get back to it sometime later in the week.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 22:15, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I've got it under 40 now, Ill continue to work at it.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 15:58, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate all the recent work on this, but there are two places where you took out information in order to take out a reference, and I have to disagree on those. (1), you took out the fact that nearly half of the food dollars spent in the U.S. are spent of fast food. I think that's relevant to the "food" article, and it's the only link to "fast food" in the article. I think it's a good fact to include. (2), you changed in from "all" cultures have food preferences and taboos to "many" cultures do. But all cultures do. It's a fact, and it's cited. I don't think we should weaken the statement just to reduce the references. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 20:43, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

The reasons I removed them was not just for removal of excessive citation. I listed on the fast food quote that citing Fast Food Nation, much like the Steingarten book is a poor secondary source riddled with excessive POV material. The statement would be fine if it came from a concrete primary source. These are the ways that articles get up to an A and then Featured Article status, although we are concerned in the short term with the GA status, I am looking past that. I changed it from All to many cultures, because the citation does not mention a page and I could not verify it. I would never remove citations just for the sake of removing citations, I always have a reason, in addition the statement is not weakened by its removal, if anything it is strengthened as it is no longer cited to a vague note.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 02:15, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

I hear you, and I don't doubt your motivations. But I still think that an accurate sourced statement, even if the source is a polemic, is better than not having the statement at all. Of course its better to have an academic source, but I couldn't find one. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 01:47, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I will look for a proper citation on fast food from the National Restaurant Association tomorrow. I will respectfully have to disagree on having the statement there just to have it there, because if the source (Fast Food Nation) is inaccurate because of bias, then it weakens the article. Authors such as that manipulate data to get shocking results to help sell their books and agendas, thus that statistic may not be completely accurate.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 04:55, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

FFN is absolutely a POV work designed to sell through controversy, but if the statistics he cited were flat-out inaccurate then his enemies (who are many) would have a field day with it. For this reason, controversial works (like FFN) are often meticulously accurate in their facts, even as they over-reach in their opinions. Unfortunately, the author didn't cite his source. I already looked through the NRA, and I couldn't find anything there. (Most of their factsheets you have to pay for, and the free ones didn't separate out "fast food".) I do think that the article isn't complete with out some reference to fast food, putting its prominence in perspective. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 13:28, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It is now accurate with statistics taken from the USDA in 2005.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 15:06, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

See also

According to Wikipedia:Guide to layout, a see-also section "should ideally not repeat links already present in the article." This is why I don't think we should include links to cuisine and culinary arts in the see-also section; they are linked to in the relevant sections already. (Besides, the culinary arts article is really, really bad.) – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 18:31, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree, too many pages have excessive See Also sections which are just repeats of the article, and I think I am going to take a rest from this article and try to see what I can do with that Culinary Arts article.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 18:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I lied

I made one more edit for today, I changed the format of the references to shorten the size of the page and make them not look so ominous as there are so many. Please feel free to change it back if you do not like it.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 18:44, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I was going to do that myself. It looks much better. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 20:38, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Steingarten citation

Using Jeffery Steingarten's book for citation on the use of blood in sausage and soup, although probably accurate, is not really a reliable source. That is a food writing book, not a culinary reference, perhaps finding the same information in McGee or Davidson which are also both already in the article would be more appropriate.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 20:22, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately, neither McGee nor Davidson mentions blood sausage or soup. I know Steingarten is a lame choice to use as a source, but a search through my bookshelf and Google Books turned up nothing better. I'd like the ref to be replaced, if anyone can find a better one. (A trip to the library should do it, but my library isn't open on Memorial Day.) – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 20:37, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

I must have something in my home library that mentions it, I'll look through it but until then it is better to have that note than none at all. I need to actually go an accomplish something today and not sit on here all day which is what happened yesterday working on this article. I find working on this stuff too much fun and too addictive. It's better than television at least.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 21:40, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Davidson, Oxford Companion to Food (1st ed) has over two columns on "Blood sausage", in alphabetical order right after "Blood", plus another half-column on an Irish blood sausage, drisheen. On the other hand, he has exactly one sentence on blood as a thickener in civet, and I didn't see anything on soup. The WP article on blood sausage, however, doesn't cite him or any other good refs.... --Macrakis 22:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Oops! Good work. Should there be a blood as food article combining this, blood sausage, blood soup, and coq au vin et al? – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 23:35, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I changed it just a little while ago.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 23:41, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Obesity

Just in case anyone else gets to it, I just wanted to put in my two-cents and mention that I think Obesity should go under nutrition, which would also greatly help expand that section.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 21:42, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Edible clay

When I was reading about Inca cuisine, I came across mention of edible clays that were used as flavoring for potatoes or even some type of penance food for the religiously devout. Does anyone know if minerals in the form of clay are eaten in other cultures as well?

Peter ^Isotalo 19:45, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I just saw a restaurant in Spain is doing a dish called "clay potatoes" which was small potatoes covered in powdered clay, but I think it is a molecular gastronomy novelty. I do recall hearing cultures eating clay before, but honestly off the top of my head, I am at a loss.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 22:18, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

I remember hearing that pregnant women somewhere in Africa would sometimes eat clay to get some sort of mineral that they weren't getting enough of in their diet. Obviously my memory of this is fuzzy. I don't think it really counts as "food", per se. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 23:36, 3 June 2007 (UTC)

The relevant article here is geophagy. Richard001 07:47, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Semi-protect

How do we semi-protect this page, I've noticed that as people work on a page more often people tend to vandalize it more. I foresee the same happening with French cuisine which I have been working on, and have had a few vandals recently.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 05:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Requests for page protection. Also, I'm an admin and I'm watching this page, so if I see it vandalized often enough I'll protect it. But protection isn't often used preemptively. You have to show that it's been vandalized a lot lately. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 11:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Artificial food

Some notes about possible future of food consuming and agriculture should be considered here. May mankind grow entirely artificial food in laboratories not depending on agriculture in case of nuclear winter? What humans have yet to do to obtain this type of production? How may genetical changes help people consume cellulose and, feeding on solar rays as plants, create not only proteins in their bodies, but aminoacids also? Perhaps, this is a topic for another article, but I have not found one yet. Yes, I know Wikipedia is not a cristal ball, but may we create an article like 'food in science fiction'. --85.235.196.35 14:18, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

This information is entirely speculative and non-fact based which means it would be technically "original research" which is not what Wikipedia desires in its encyclopedic articles.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 15:14, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

However Food in science fiction would be an appropriate article, so long as each example is sourced to a specific piece of literature. – Quadell ^{(talk) (random)} 16:06, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Quadellon this.--Christopher Tanner, CCC 16:53, 10 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be advantageous if we could digest cellulose (our distant ancestors could, with the help of bacteria), and being able to synthesize all the amino acids, vitamin C (another molecule we used to be able to make) and anything else like that would also be helpful.

On the other hand, an organism that creates its own food such as a plant would never have enough energy to move around and do the things we do - that's why it takes about 10kg of plant material to make 1kg of primary consumers. Any 'artificial' attempts at creating food would still require an energy source, and the sun is about the only one we have. Therefore plants and other phototrophs will surely remain our primary source of energy unless we become partially robotic or are replaced by some electronic life form. If we can't grow plants, we'll soon be extinct.

I don't know of any non-science fiction plans to change humans in this way, but there are certainly attempts to improve the nutritional value of foods, such as improving protein and vitamin content of basic staples like rice, which causes great nutritional deficiencies if eaten with little else. This aspect can be written about, but the rest is too far fetched. Richard001 07:23, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Amount of normal food consumption for a person not included in article

Please include the normal amount of caloric intake required for a person/day. Depending on whether the person is mature or not and female or male, this fluctuates but is around 2800-3000kcal/day. Also, depending on where a person lives (warmer/colder climates, height level) can severely influence this (I believe that in tropical climates only 2100-2200 kcal are required for a average adult).

Please include all this information (preferably in a table with the different factors such as male, female, height level, ...) in this article or in a article called "food consumption" or something.

Thanks