Talk:Catholic Church sexual abuse cases/Archive 5

NPOV

For those interested in eliminating POV in this and other articles, there is a List of fallacies in Wikipedia and a rather tighter one in http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies. I've noticed a number of sentences that start off with the "assumption" that "everybody knows." etc. This is great grist for the POV folks and something that some of us would like to replace or remove. This list provides support for those hoping to revert to an encyclopedic article. Student7 16:21, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for that link, Student7. I agree that this "article" is chock full of POV statements, unreferenced conclusions, etc. I have tried to deal with some, but to be frank the whole thing is such a mess it's hard to figure out where to begin. It's like emptying the ocean with a teaspoon. But at least it's comforting to see some other teaspoons out there. --Anietor 23:28, 19 July 2007 (UTC)

I'll make a suggestion on where to begin. The paragraph that starts, "The Catholic League has argued..." seems to contain a lot of information about teachers, strung together in a way that seems POV if not OR; the article isn't about comparative rates of abuse. The Catholic League response should be included, but without the additional survey and report info. 24.4.253.249 07:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I changed it. Kept the references. I didn't think that was the worst sentence in the intro BTW. Teachers should be pleased!  :)

If you have bathwater, let me know. Just make sure there isn't a baby in it first!  :) Student7 13:39, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Yup, much better. I'm going to rearrange some of the sentences to try to make the lead flow better. Feel free to revert if you don't think it improves the article. 24.4.253.249 16:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Miami "stuff"

The Miami archdiocese "stuff" has finally overflowed onto this article. It is Dominvsvobiscvm's POV that Archbishop Favalora is pro-homosexual and is intending to publicize that POV ad infinitum. More Catholic that the pope, you see. The sources used are not double edited like controversial material should be, but from blogs, columns and other unverified references. The Miami stuff is supposedly going into arbitration having failed mediation. With enough eyes and a heads up, we ought to be able to handle this here or force a mediation first (which won't work) and then to arbitration separately. We will try to couple them but don't know if that will work. For those who hate the church, this poorly documented type of accusation does not help your case and you may wish to help as well! See Wikipedia:Verifiability#Sources Student7 12:49, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

My feeling is that Dominvsvobiscvm's goal is not to contribute to Wikipedia as a body of knowledge, but to use it as a vehicle to promote a vendetta against several entities: Archbishop Favalora, the Archdiocese of Miami, and gay and lesbian people in the Catholic Church, their families and friends. Dominvsvobism is attempting to cobble together "sources"--correct or not, appropriate or not--in a frantic attempt to prove her accusations. Also, it is obvious that since the John Favalora and Archdiocese of Miami articles have been "locked" she will target other articles in Wikipedia as convenient places to promote her agenda of harassment. Annpavlosky 4 September 2007 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.122.80.55 (talk) 09:32, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

I've been taking this entirely too seriously. It was one thing to place this stuff in the middle of the Miami articles - ruining perfectly good copy. It's quite another thing to put them here when half this stuff is nonsense or exaggerated already. The entire article is too long ensuring that no one will read it. The quality is not good. The main intent is to defame. Anyway, Dominvsvobiscm's contributions are even more ludicrous that the usual ones and totally without merit. If they weren't ready to disbelieve this article prior to arriving at the Miami section, they will afterwards. That is a plus not a minus. Secondly, this has a good basis for an article in uncyclopedia. I copied Dominvsvobisvm's original and moved it there. Will need a bit of "enhancement," but I think the people there will get a big kick out of it when I am through. (I knew it would be good for something!). Student7 19:09, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Bankruptcy

Just looking at the "bankruptcy" section. This is all repeated below in the diocese section. Why in two places? Plus being in the article on the diocese. I do want to point out that articles this long don't get read anyway, but it is annoying for those of us who do look at it occasionally.Student7 21:11, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

(Hope you don't mind that I refactored your comments for ease of reading.)

I agree that duplicate information is not a good thing. The question then becomes, Where is it more logical to present it? I'm tempted to say that the Diocese section should be rewritten into a summary that presents full aggregate info, with a list of links to the specific Diocese articles/sections for details based on location. That would allow the Bankruptcy section to remain largely intact. 24.4.253.249 00:34, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

CSRI Books

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:SPS Louise Haggett is listed as the President/Founder of CITI Ministries. She is listed as the author of the report. CSRI Books is listed as part of CITI Ministries. All this is conveyed in the relevant section of the article but Wikipedia's relevant policy says:

Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.[5]

Self-published material may, in some circumstances, be acceptable when produced by an established expert on the topic of the article whose work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable third-party publications. However, caution should be exercised when using such sources: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.

The exception is if: The report is produced by "an established expert on the topic of the article" and "has been previously published by reliable third-party publications". Neither has been established so I intend to delete the section unless someone can prove that Louise Haggett is an "established expert" who has been published by "reliable third-party publications". GuyIncognito 01:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Miami

I just removed some comments and disputed material from the section on the Miami Archdiocese, which was making all of it hard to read. I hope this works. I'm putting what I think was all of the disputed material here. If there is more disputed material, I'd suggest using the same technique (or simply to delete it, if that's what needs to happen) which should make it easier for others to see what has happened. Here is the material:

In 2005 and 2006, Catholic columnist Matt C. Abbott (of RenewAmerica.us) published several articles tracing developments in what became known as the "Miami Vice" scandal. Bourassa claimed that several "straight" priests were feeding her information on a culture of sodomy and theological heterodoxy on the part of priests of the Miami Archdiocese. Among the allegations: 70 to 90 percent of the Archdiocese's priests are sexually active gays; Archbishop Favalora and Catholic Charities of Miami owned several thousand shares in stock for a liquid aphrodisiac popularly sold in gay clubs and strip joints; at least 70 percent of bishops in the United States are sexually active gays; many parish priests were misappropriating parish funds to live exorbitant lifestyles, and archbishop Favalora and vicar-general Msgr. William J. Hennessey are in some way implicated in this superculture.

The comment was: "well he didn't "publish" anything. Abbott is simply a tabloid web blogger in effect. Not allowable in Wikipedia under guidelines previously cited. Particularly for controversial stuff. This is utter nonsense." I was going to check this but haven't yet. Plinkit 19:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Reasons why material referenced to Matt Abbott Columns should be removed from Archdiocese of Miami sections

Regarding the allegation that Archdiocese of Miami owns stock in a liquid aphrodisiac company, the alleged liquid aphrodisiac is this http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-149600240.html As you can see by visiting this independent third party reference to the supposed liquid aphrodisiac, the beverages sold by this company are marketed as "energy drinks". No where does this company say that it is selling a liquid aphrodisiac. In no newspaper is it reported that any of these drinks are aphrodisiacs that are sold in gay bars. I would also like to point out that there are no references that Wikipedia would allow to sustain having any of the material referenced to Matt Abbott columns. I searched for any third party references to any investigations of any Archdiocese of Miami priest for stealing money and there are none. I searched for any third party references to find any kind of evidence that would sustain an accusation that Miami Archdiocese priests (over 400 of them) are sexually active homosexuals. There are none. Wikipedia policy states that extraordinary claims must have extraordinary sources. This does not exist to sustain these claims. I have four school age children here. Sharon Bourassa and her tiny catholic hate group told entire schools full of children, including my own that the priests they have loved and known all their lives are practicing homosexuals because they own real estate (just like doctors do when investing) with other priests. (Archdiocese of Miami requires their priests to provide for their own retirement) I watched my child cry for over two hours and she only stopped after I told her that her own father owns a hunting cabin with his hunting friends, owning real estate does not mean a person is an active homosexual, nor that they have bought it with stolen funds. One priest lives in a home on the intracoastal. He is an only child who has lived in this home most of his life with his parents. When his parents died, he inherited the home which is three blocks from his parish. Sharon Bourassa assumes that since it is on the intracoastal, it is a luxury home he owns with stolen parish funds. This is such a horrible defamation of good, innocent priests who have been loving and kind to our kids and it is so painful to see this garbage being proclaimed on Wikipedia. This material clearly violates wikipolicies WP:Redflag, WP:Proveit, WP:NPOV#undue weight, and WP:RS If you visit the mediation page of John Favalora you will see many editors who have a consensus that this material should be removed. The only person who wants this material on this site is DominvsVobiscm. If you visit his talk page you will see how many times he has been reprimanded for vandalizing Catholic sites in Wikipedia. This is not an unbiased Wiki editor. This is a person using Wikipedia to turn Catholic sites into anti Catholic propaganda.NancyHeise 14:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

removal of material from Miami subsection that violates Wikipolicies

The following comments are in regard to items referenced to the source of Matt Abbott columns who has no fact checker or editor as required by Wikipedia to be considered a reliable source. He prints emails on the protestant web site "Renew America" which could be considered by many to be anti Catholic propaganda.

1. Paragraph two of this submission by DominvsVobiscm devoted the dismissed Dowgiert lawsuit received no major news coverage. A few paragraphs down, the editor who contributed this section states that the lawsuit was dismissed because of church/state separation reasons and courts did not comment on the veracity of the allegations. There is no reference to sustain this sentence. We have no third party reference to see what was the court's actual ruling in why they dismissed this lawsuit. In a similar lawsuit like this one in New York http://www.nylawyer.com/adgifs/decisions/021307crotty.pdf, you can see that the justices ruled for sanctions against the attorney after they dismissed the case. Beginning on page 29, they state that the attorney used the courts only to generate propaganda against the Catholic Church. Sharon Bourassa, the attorney in the dismissed Dowgiert lawsuit may have also been sanctioned for the same reasons. (google her name to see the places her allegations in Matt Abott columns were published, with no references to the dismissal) To place any sentence in this paragraph without an actual reference to the actual ruling is not only against Wikipolicy, it makes Wikipedia look ridiculously unreliable. Likewise, to mention a lawsuit that was dismissed in its first hearing and then withdrawn by the plaintiff does not make sense. It makes Wikipedia a possible tool of anti Catholic propaganda, also against Wikipedia policy.
2. Paragraph three lists the allegations contained in the dismissed lawsuit just discussed. Listing these allegations is further evidence that the editor intends to use Wikipedia as an anti Catholic propaganda tool. I have searched for local and national newspaper coverage that would sustain these allegations that are over two years old, I find nothing in local or national papers. I do not find any articles about Archdiocese of Miami priests stealing money from parishes, being investigated or prosecuted for such felony crime. I do not see where any luxury properties have been confiscated because of such felony crime. I do not find where homosexually active priests in the Archdiocese of Miami are being removed or investigated. Further, how can anyone state with a straight face that they personally know the sexual orientation of over 360 United States Bishops? Yet this paragraphs states that almost all of them are sexually active homosexuals. This is anti Catholic propaganda. I did find that one of the attorney's who brought the lawsuit in the first place, Sharon Bourassa's co-counsel, Mr. Joe Titone, was disbarred. Maybe this lawsuit and its allegations do not belong in this article for the very reasons that they can not be substantiated with any real news sources Wikipedia requires. To include this paragraph would violate Wikipedia policy and make it appear to be a tool of anti Catholic propaganda.
3. This sentence "Christifidelis claims to have sent their investigation to the Vatican for adjudication; they claim Pope Benedict XVI is "well aware" of these scandals, and is currently deliberating a solution to them" does not make sense. We do not know who "Christifidelis" is. There is no reference to a web site for them, I do not find any. There are some groups with the name Christifidelis on the web, searching their sites, there is no mention of their suppposed founder "Sharon Bourassa" nor this claim to have sent their investigation (also not mentioned) to the Vatican. I have searched to find where Pope Benedict XVI has stated he is "well aware of these Archdiocese of Miami scandals and is currently deliberating a solution to them". There is no reference to back up this statement. It is a completely unreferenced statement. Wikipedia policy states that "extraordinary claims must have extraordinary sources". This is an obvious violation of Wikipedia policy and further evidence that the article is possibly being used as a tool of anti Catholic propaganda.
4. "Archbishop Favalora and Catholic Charities of Miami owned several thousand shares in stock for a liquid aphrodisiac popularly sold in gay clubs and strip joints". This sentence has no reference. Going to the source, Matt Abott columns, I do not find a list of stockholders for Xstream Beverage Network, Inc., the alleged stock. Searching news articles of this company, I do not find any drink they sell that is called a "liquid aphrodisiac" nor any news articles stating that any of their drinks are sold in gay bars. This appears to the average reader to be a blatant display of anti Catholic propaganda. I don't think it serves the purpose of Wikipedia to include such a statement.
5. "Two of the Miami Archdiocese's parishes (Saints Anthony and Maurice, both in Fort Lauderdale) are publicly featured on the directory of the Conference for Catholic Lesbians as being "Gay-Friendly"; a complimentary directory lists both Archdicoesan universities, Barry and Saint Thomas, as "Gay-Friendly"." This sentence does not explain why it is a scandal to be "gay friendly". The Archdiocese has a homosexual ministry and also and AIDS ministry. South Florida is home to the second largest homosexual population in the country. Why shouldn't they be gay friendly? What purpose does this sentence serve under "Church Scandals". This is referenced to a source that is not part of the Catholic Church. It does not state that the Church sanctions homosexual behaviour, blesses unions or other activities that would violate church teaching and possibly be considered a scandal in the Catholic Church. Likewise, there is no local or national newspaper coverage of these parishes being gay friendly or any scandal associated with being so. I did find in the Catholic Catechism the requrement to be welcoming to gays see:http://ccc.scborromeo.org.master.com/texis/master/search/mysite.html?q=paragraph+2358&sufs=0&order=r&cmd=context&id=4810ea482028fc5b#hit1 Evidently, it is not a scandal to be "gay friendly" and this sentence does not belong in this article under Church Scandals.
6. "Archbishop Favalora has been deposed in a lawsuit filed against retired Broward priest Neil Doherty; at least four lawsuits are alleging the Archdiocese knew Doherty was a pedophile and covered-up allegations, keeping Doherty in ministry until he was first publicly accused of sexual abuse in 2002" This paragraph is incorrect. Neil Doherty was first publicly accused of sexual abuse in 2005. He was removed from ministry by Archbishop Favalora in 2002 after Favalora went through priest files and found an accusation against Doherty that had occured under the previous and now deceased Archbishop of Miami. Please see the first lawsuit at http://www.hermanlaw.com/pdf/complaint-02.pdf date is on bottom of page. Also see http://www.bishop-accountability.org/news2007/01_02/2007_02_20_Weaver_ArchbishopDeposed.htm
7. " In July 2007, Miami lawyer Jeffrey Herman announced new lawsuits against the Archdiocese, alleging sexual abuse by six Florida priests, including Doherty. "This whole scandal is far from over," Herman said. "We're still in the heart of people coming forward." This sentence stands alone. It does not give both sides of the story making it biased. This sentence is already included in the article Roman Catholic Sex Abuse cases under the subsection Archdiocese of Miami. However, in that article, both sides of the story are given. Either this should be eliminated here and a reference to the other article inserted or it should contain the unbiased version.StacyyW 11:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

I tried to look into the Abbott material, and agree that it shouldn't be there unless independent sources can be found. I wasn't able to find any. I'm not sure whether the rest is disputed or not, but I agree with making the material two-sided. Is there another side to this? Plinkit 23:40, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Some answers i'll add more later;

4)The energy drink stuff is rubish and should not be on wikipedia, i looked up the energy drink and its just another Red Bull clone with added chinese herbs. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

5)Being gay friendly is not a crime or against catholic teaching (just another sinner), this section should go as well. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

3)This should be removed until a good reliable source is found. ^{(Hypnosadist)} 06:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

5) As a point, it is neither a "sin" per se, to be heterosexual nor homosexual. Most Christian churches, including Catholic, are "friendly" to both. It would be worthy of an article if one weren't! Student7 12:03, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Boy, are you ignorant. RenewAmerica.us is not a "Protestant" website, much less an anti-Catholic one. The site is areligious, and supports the so-called "Declarationist" principles of Alan Keyes, a Catholic! Matt Abbott is Catholic, too. DominvsVobiscvm 19:14, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Page protection

I've protected this page from editing because the current edit war has gone on long enough. This is not an endorsement of the current state of the article. I invite all participants to discuss their differences here rather than engaging in back-and-forth reverting of the article. —Angr 22:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

This article has been locked down in its most offensive version. The statements on the section for Archdiocese of Miami not only do not have a reliable reference, many statements have no reference. Please see the comments on this article by stacyyw above NancyHeise 02:27, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry that The Wrong Version has been protected, but in an edit war that's pretty much inevitable. If DominvsVobiscvm comes to the talk page to discuss, maybe something can be worked out. If not (and he hasn't used the talk page yet), it won't be an issue to unprotect and allow the consensus version to reestablish itself. —Angr 06:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Angr: I have negotiated on these talk pages ad nauseam. If you look up the history of this, I've shown myself willing to compromise every step of the way.DominvsVobiscvm 19:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)