Talk:Blackwater (company)

Template:ACIDnom

I suggest this page be moved to the default page for "Blackwater" searches.

Right now there is a ridiculous disambiguation page. No one is searching for "Blackwater" as a geographical location. If they are, let them go to the disambiguation page. As it is, looking through that long list to find "Blackwater USA" is going to discourage those who don't know much about what is going on, and so may not have the time or even saavy to scan through such a long list. This seems fair.

purge of references to Jeremy Scahill's book

Previous edits of the Criticism section included Jeremy Scahill's book, Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army (ISBN: 1560259795) . That reference has disappeared. What is up with that? HC21:24, 17 September 2007 (UTC)

I strongly agree. The section on Scahill needs to be much more significant. Links need to be made to DemocracyNow.org, an easy search of the archives under Blackwater or Scahill should do. This is important, especially given any attempt to scrub this site of references to one of the group's strongest and most articulate critics. Surely any reasonable person would grant the significance of his criticism, whatever your opinion. The greatest threat to the issue is that it be taken as a non-issue. Now who would want to see that happen? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.220.121.73 (talk) 01:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)

Mercenaries?

before anybody makes anymore changes concerning mercenary and contractors, put down on this page why it should be one or the other. I personally believe they are more like mercenaries and in the traditional sense of the word, they are mercenaries but they are referred to as contractors.

^ it seems a lot of folks on the free-idea-exchange Internet recognize that Blackwater is nothing more than a gang of unaccountable mercenary thugs, but sadly the mainstream media has all but ignored this issue, other than for example Jack Cafferty of CNN, and the sneaky (?) writers of the CBS series "Jericho" where they depicted "Ravenwood" soldiers as an obvious reference to Blackwater :o ) 199.214.28.244 17:02, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps we'll jsut call them contractors and put a note saying that while they are called contractors, they are mercenaries or something like that.Bubbleboys 22:08, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

they are mercenaries and they are contractors in both senses they are mercenaries because they have units that are paid and combat trained that go in "battle" (some even died in iraq) and they're contractors because they are contracted out by the gov't to do other tasks like logistics/integrated communications stc. they are also able to contract out themselves hopefully this will help you with your disagrement also check out their website [www.blackwaterusa.com]

errm, can someone add more relating to there new found role in helping out with the NO disaster as mentioned here http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/091005A.shtml (very biased) and on there homepage http://www.blackwaterusa.com

I have added a brief rehash of Blackwater's press release and Jeremy Scahill's article. Nick

I do believe the correct "modern" term for them is "PMC" or "Private Military Company" —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Nollendorf (talk • contribs) .

My father works for the company, so i had the pleasure of touring the grounds. they are trained to protect highly visible VIP's, not "attack" front line enemy troops. This article has a lot of bias, but even bias has its citable sources. Ill see if i can get some good info from my father and maybe hellp make this article betterSponge1354 02:22, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

It has to be reliable published sources. Punkmorten 06:58, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Sorry Sponge, you hardly sound like an objective source. You saw a very small part of a very large organization. Ask your father about extraordinary renditions to Eastern Europe, or "interrogation techniques" at Abu Graib. ----Rawckuf.

the company says blatantly on it's website that you must be a US citized to apply there. therefore, unless someone can provide some evidence that blackwater does indeed hire (not just work with...remember people: multinational force in iraq, americans work WITH people from other nations all the time) non US citizens, the line regarding the term mercenary being correct only for non US citizens, i'm deleting the sentence. oh, one more thing to be deleted is the statement regarding 'private security contractors aroused anger in iraq'. it is not specifically citing blackwater, so why is it there? you wouldn't put a blurb about wal-marts worker comp fraud on k-mart's page, would you?

Would you consider BBC as a reliable source? See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7008058.stm for referrence to "231 third country nationals and 12 Iraqis"Pustelnik 17:15, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

Blackwater hired Chilean commandos. They have an entity based in the barbados which manages their foreign mercs. --KaliqX 07:57, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

It's obvious that they are mercenaries. That should be in the first sentence on the page. I assume the only reason it's not in the first sentence is because of blackwater employee's who wiki-propaganda. -- firefight 18:00, 19 Sept 2007 (UTC)

O.E.D. entry for 'mercenary' (1989, online revised 2nd edition)

A Mercenary is - Concerning a legal definition of mercenary, the Special Rapporteur's interim report to the General Assembly (A/55/334) provides information on, inter alia: mercenary. The report notes that the currently accepted meaning or use of the term primarily focusses on professional services that are paid to recruit soldiers to intervene in an armed conflict in a country other than their own. So before anyone tries to merge "contractors" with "mercenaries" there should be careful discussion on what services that company, who would be lumped into that category, has provided. SCG International Risk, for example, works only for the US Government and private US corporations.Ghostscg 00:56, 27 August 2006 (UTC)

Since the definition of what is a mercenary seems to be in dispute... → P.MacUidhir (t) (c) 18:15, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

mercenary, n. and a.

-forms:

• ME mercynary, mersenarie, mersenarye, ME-15 mercenarye, ME-16 mercenarie, 15 mercennary, mercionary, 15-16 mercinarie, mercinary, 15- mercenary, 16 mersenary;
• Sc. pre-17 mercenarye, pre-17 17- mercenary.

-definitions

• A. n.

• 1. A person who works merely for money or other material reward; a hireling. In later use (prob. influenced also by sense 2): a person whose actions are motivated primarily by personal gain, often at the expense of ethics.

c1387-95 CHAUCER Canterbury Tales Prol. 514 He [sc. the parson] was a shepherde and noght a mercenarye [v.r. mersenarye]. c1475 (a1449) LYDGATE Minor Poems (1911) I. 167 Pastor callid, nat a mercenarye. ?1548 J. BALE Comedy Thre Lawes Nature III. sig. C8v, We are soch mercenaryes... As from the flock all carryes. 1643 SIR T. BROWNE Relig. Medici I. §52 Mercenaries that crouch unto him in feare of Hell..are indeed but slaves of the Almighty. 1805 H. TOOKE Diversions of Purley II. 3 Punish the wickedness of those mercenaries who utter such atrocities. 1806 J. LINGARD Antiq. Anglo-Saxon Church II. xi. 258 The monastic institute was condemned, as calculated only for mercenaries and slaves. 1982 N.Y. Times (Nexis) 11 July II. 15 Mr Lucas's original intention was to ‘do the first one [sc. Star Wars film] and then be a real mercenary and turn it over to someone like Fox and take a big percentage of the gross’. 1998 Mirror (Nexis) 18 Dec. 49 When Everton came in for me two seasons ago, West Ham were in relegation trouble. If I'd been a real mercenary, I'd have cleared off and left them to it.

• 2. a. A person who receives payment for his or her services. Chiefly and now only: spec. a soldier paid to serve in a foreign army or other military organization.

1523 LD. BERNERS tr. J. Froissart Chron. I. ccv. 242 The Almaygnes, and mercenaryes of strange countreis. 1583 P. STUBBES Anat. Abuses II. sig. K7, The reading ministers after they be hired of the parishes (for they are mercenaries). 1638 G. SANDYS Paraphr. Job vii. 10 He a poore mercenary serves for bread. 1687 DRYDEN Hind & Panther II. 49 Like mercenary's, hir'd for home defence, They will not serve against their native Prince. 1776 T. JEFFERSON Wks. (1859) I. 23 He is at this time transporting large armies of foreign mercenaries. 1840 R. BROWNING Sordello IV. 51 Lean silent gangs of mercenaries ceased Working to watch the strangers. 1849 G. GROTE Hist. Greece VII. II. lx. 438 Greeks continental and insular..volunteers and mercenaries..were all here to be found. 1913 G. EDMUNDSON Church Rome First Cent. vi. 169 The storming and burning of the Capitol by the foreign mercenaries of Vitellius. 1974 F. FORSYTH Dogs of War (1975) I. iv. 86 So for the last six years he had lived as a mercenary, often an outlaw, at best regarded as a soldier for hire, at worst a paid killer.

• b. In extended use, with modifying word.

1861 J. PYCROFT Ways & Words 285 Literary mercenaries, ready to serve under friend or foe. 1987 E. PRAGER Clea & Zeus Divorce (1988) v. 26 They wore their camouflage fatigues..and heavy boots and berets, like the show biz mercenaries they were.

• B. adj.

• 1. a. Of a person, organization, etc.: working or acting merely for money or other material reward; motivated by self-interest; materialistic.

1532 T. MORE Confut. Tyndale in Wks. 507/2 A mercennary preacher and an hired, which seketh his own temporal aduauntage & commoditie. 1600 SHAKESPEARE Merch. V. IV. i. 415 And I deliuering you, am satisfied, and therein doe account my selfe well payd, my minde was neuer yet more mercinarie. 1616 SIR R. DUDLEY in Fortescue Papers (Camden) 17 And that, whether you move this suite or noe, for I am not mercenarie. 1762 O. GOLDSMITH Citizen of World I. 45 Such wretches are kept in pay by some mercenary bookseller. 1843 Ainsworth's Mag. 4 308 Upon the ‘balance’,..women are quite as mercenary as men. 1865 DICKENS Our Mutual Friend II. III. iv. 31 Haven't I told you what a mercenary little wretch I am? 1955 A. WEST Heritage ii. 38, I should be put in a school where I would neither be exposed, nor tempted to expose myself, to the activities of mercenary and unscrupulous journalists. 1997 Dallas Morning News (Nexis) 20 Dec. 1A, Mr. Greene said he's heard skeptical comments that JPI only gave the city the property because it benefited from the deal. ‘They're not a mercenary organization.’

• b. Of conduct, a course of action, etc., or its motivation: characterized by self-interest or the pursuit of personal gain; prompted by the desire for money or other material reward; undertaken only for personal gain.

1532 T. MORE Confut. Tyndale in Wks. 362/2 They holde that it is not lawfull to loue..God..for obteining of reward, calling this maner of loue..seruile bonde and mercennary. 1619 H. HUTTON Follie's Anat. sig. A5v, Value my verse according to her worth: No mercenary hope hath brought her forth. 1690 W. TEMPLE Misc. II. i. 68 Learning has been so little advanced since it grew to be mercenary. 1711 LD. SHAFTESBURY Characteristicks (1737) I. II. iii. 97 They have made Virtue so mercenary a thing, and have talk'd so much of its Rewards. 1781 W. COWPER Hope 333 His soul abhors a mercenary thought, And him as deeply who abhors it not. 1837 H. MARTINEAU Society in Amer. III. 128 The disgusting spectacle of mercenary marriages. 1861 DICKENS Let. 6 Nov. (1938) III. 251 They are all old servants,..and..are under the strongest injunction to avoid any approach to mercenary dealing. 1890 H. JAMES Tragic Muse I. xiii. 273, I might improve my fortune by some other means than by making a mercenary marriage. 1913 T. HARDY Changed Man 275 No man when he first becomes interested in a woman has any definite scheme of engagement to marry her in his mind, unless he is meaning a vulgar mercenary marriage. 1971 I. MURDOCH Accidental Man 150 We are glad to know that you did not learn of the young lady's fortune before you courted her, though we are in any case aware that you are above any mercenary motive. 1990 G. ROBERTSON Media Law 17 The law of England is indeed,..a law of liberty; but the freedoms it recognises do not include a licence for the mercenary betrayal of business confidences.

• 2. a. Hired, serving for wages. Now: spec. designating a soldier paid to serve in a foreign army or other military organization; (of an army) composed of such soldiers.

1569 T. STOCKER tr. Diodorus Siculus' Hist. Successors Alexander 105 Aboute two thousand Mercenarie Grekes, and so many Thracians. 1589 R. GREENE Ciceronis Amor 52 A simple sheepeharde who as a Mercinarie man kept sheepe for Vatinius. 1590 J. SMYTHE Certain Disc. Weapons 49b, They..began..to go ouer to serue as mercenarie soldiers in the Low Countries. 1611 T. CORYATE Crudities I. 171 Of these Gondolaes..sixe thousand are priuate..and foure thousand for mercenary men, which get their liuing by the trade of rowing. 1640 I. WALTON Life of Donne in J. Donne 80 Serm. A6 He continued that employment.., being daily usefull (and not mercenary) to his friends. 1795 W. SEWARD Anecd. (1796) III. 382 Lord Chatham was obliged to call in to its aid the mercenary troops of other Nations: these..he subsidised with a liberal..hand. 1830 LADY MORGAN France 1829-30 I. 502 For what purpose is all this apparatus of tyranny..the jail, the gibbet, the mercenary army, [etc.]{em}to obtain the power of doing evil. 1871 E. A. FREEMAN Hist. Norman Conquest IV. xviii. 233 William at this time dismissed the mercenary part of his army. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 31/2 Abd-ar-rahman subdued the nobles by means of a mercenary army, which included Christians. 1974 J. PHILIPS Power Killers (1975) I. i. 9 There is a well organized..terror group that involves mercenary killers all over the world.

• † b. Salaried, stipendiary; profit-making. Obs.

1656 T. STANLEY Hist. Philos. (new ed.) VI. xv. 27 He shut up his poor shop, and gave over his mercenary profession. a1684 J. EVELYN Diary anno 1664 (1955) III. 369, I saw acted the Indian Queene a Tragedie..so beautified with rich Scenes as the like had never ben seene..on a mercenarie Theater. 1726 J. AYLIFFE Parergon 319 Such Things..the Judge may despatch by his mercenary Office. 1782 T. PENNANT Journey Chester to London 96 These livings at that time were good rectories; now poor vicarages, or mercenary curacies, annexed to the bishoprick.

• 3. Of or belonging to a mercenary.

a1616 SHAKESPEARE Hen. V (1623) IV. vii. 74 Many of our Princes..Lye drown'd and soak'd in mercenary blood. 1735 J. THOMSON Liberty II. 38 To spill Their Country's bravest blood, and on themselves To turn their matchless mercenary Arms. 1758 J. HOME Agis II. i. 22 Tell..Rhesus, if he loves bright arms..No more to wield a mercenary sword, But plant himself with thee in Sparta's soil. 1922 A. E. HOUSMAN in Oxf. Bk. 20th Cent. Eng. Verse (1973) 48 These, in the day when heaven was falling, The hour when earth's foundations fled, Followed their mercenary calling And took their wages and are dead.

Duplicate entry

An article at "Backwater training centre" was being prodded; I removed the PROD and redirected it here. The content doesn't seem to be completely redundant, so I'm reproducing it here:

1 Blackwater training centre

The Blackwater training centre is a private security company that specialises in training security personnel.

1.1 General

Founded in 1997 by former US Navy Seal and current CEO Erik Prince the purpose of backwater is to provide additional training to civil and military security personnel as opposed to providing complete security training for a recruit or novice. located in North Carolina Blackwater is the largest training facility in the world at an astonishing 6000 acres with more than 20 target Rangers equipped with computerised target movement systems.

1.2 Facilities

The more than 20 target ranges include the world's only privately owned 1200 yard firing range Forsyth rifle training and can be concrete reinforced for 50 calibre or Gatling gun training and is often performed from the side of the recreation helicopter. There is also the "reactive steel" firing range. This range provides pop-up steel plate targets which can be configured to appear in a variety of sequences and timings in day and night scenarios.

One of the largest firing ranges is the "are you ready high school" contains Hall's, classrooms, mannequins of students and hostile targets for critical incident training that is primarily themed on a high school shooting scenario. The high school consists of video and audio recording for post exercise evaluation as well as moving walls for a variety of floor plans to provide diverse training that forces the students to adapt their skills.

--maru (talk) contribs 06:25, 8 May 2006 (UTC)

Oblivion

Someone managed to claim that Bethesda Softworks stooped so low as to include contemporary political satire in their fantasy game Oblivion. In this game, there is a mercenary company named the Blackwood Company which pursue unethical acts. What the author failed to realise, is that the company is named after the region in the game in which they base their operations, the Blackwood forest. The fictional world of this forest precedes Blackwater USA by three years. Joffeloff 23:47, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

The Blackwater organisation is also named after a geographic trait in the region (Blackwater Creek), the symbol the company uses is also used because there are a number of Black Bears on the property. (Bears paw in the crosshairs.) Izzy1985 23:01, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

Miscalculation?

the Line: Blackwater USA consists of five companies: is followed by six lines of "subcompanies"... whats right? 5 or 6? --87.193.35.4 18:12, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Not sure what date should be used for when blackwater was found: the company website uses 1996 as the genesis of the operation, as did the Wikipedia page prior to my edit. During the congressional hearing over Reconstruction is Iraq on Wednesday, the 7th of February, the General Council for Blackwater said the company was founded in 1997. No real concensus on what year to use for foundation. BarabasKid 20:52, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

Bush Campaign Contributions

On a broadcast of Democracy Now, they mentioned that the founders of Blackwater were big contributors to Bush/ Cheney's election campaign. Do you think this is worth putting in the article? --Jml4000 23:41, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Yes put it there.. or place the reference here please.Cheers -- maxrspct ping me 22:55, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

This is an encyclopedic entry on a company. Do we normally list the campaign contributions on articles about companies? This seems POV to me. — Linnwood (talk) 23:06, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

It is important if the Company primarily profits from war or armed conflict, especially since they have played major roles in the current war in Iraq. --Jml4000 04:50, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

It is important if the Company primarily profits from (Insert Government Action), especially since they have played major roles in the (Insert Government Policy) I mean you could fit that statement to any company that has people who donate to political campaigns. I fail to see how Blackwater USA is diffrent than any other organization (corporation, labor union, charity) in that way. — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 07:25, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

There is a difference between a company profiting off of say, a highway or school being built by the federal government, and a company that profits off the bloodshed of human beigns. When Dick Cheney left the office of Secretary of defense under Bush 1, he hired a firm called Kellog Brown and Root (a subsidiary of halliburton) to brainstorm ways of how to privatize the U.S. military. This is the "revolution in military affairs" that's brought up many times by the Project for the New American Century. --147.144.1.251 20:55, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but unless you have some sort of allegation about corruption, there is no difference. For all we know the founders of Blackwater USA contributed to Bush/Cheney '04 because they are big supporters of school choice or any other GOP plank. — Steven Andrew Miller (talk) 21:29, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

If it was offered as a criticism by Democracy Now! there's no reason to exclude it from the article, as long as it is sourced and under the appropriate heading. The same would be true of any other company with a publicly-alleged conflict of interest. Aelffin 19:45, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree with Aelffin. Perhaps the best place to note the contributions to Republican candidates by Prince and Jackson is under the section dealing with personnel, where their names are mentioned. The extant connections between the current government administration and this company through personnel exchanges are further justification for acknowledging a publicly-alleged conflict of interest--i.e. current vice president, Cofer Black, is the former coordinator for counterterrorism at the State Department and former director of the CIA's Counterterrorism Center, and Joseph Schmitz, current COO of the Prince Group, Blackwater's parent company, was previously the Pentagon's Inspector General. There should be some acknowledgment of these relationships. Mcwabaunsee 20:16, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

If conflict of interest is mentioned, it seems to be part of the corporate culture. Cofer Black is now counterterrorism advisor on the Romney campaign staff. ----Rawkcuf.

The campaign contributions were done by Erik Prince, and should be mentioned in his part of the personnel section. Their relevance to the company does not warrant its own section. Arkalochori 22:27, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

current event tag

Blackwater USA is a company, how is this artical about a current event? i see no need for the tag, Boatman666 00:56, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

this company was featured on tonight's premier of "K-Ville" as "Blackriver Securities" who worked as assassins in New Orleans. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Arabianofelix (talk • contribs) 01:41, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Not to mention numerous critical articles and news reports, e.g. DemocracyNow.org, Jeremy Scahill, et al.

Blackwater killings

I was talking to a marine who was in Iraq (I don't know where), and his patrol witnessed Blackwater employees kill a little girl unprovoked, and the patrol arrested them on the spot. I asked him if it was an isolated incident, and he said "no, they do it all the time" and that these blackwater employees just go unlucky to have done it in the presence of a patrol. I'm sure he was exaggerating with "all the time" and probably meant that they are just known to do it. I know there was a video on the internet of some anonymous security contractors (not sure if they were Blackwater) taking pot-shots at cars on a freeway.

The fact that the marine who told me this was very conservative, of the mindset that "we shouldn't be in Iraq, we should just blow the f'in place up" and isn't the type to make up tall tales, and along with the fact that there was video released I'm inclined to believe there is something to what he said.

I would never add this to the article unless I could get it from a reliable published source. But I figure there has to be something published about it. That video was on the news for a while. Someone had to have investigated it. If a good source explaining the phenemenon could be found I think it would be good to add the info to the article. Brentt 02:03, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

Ooh, that's a good story. I'm going to email it to all my friends! 129.92.250.41

Numbers?

How many blackwater in Iraq? How many private military contractors total? Are these numbers anywhere?

IIRC, it's on the Iraq War page. Kensai Max 23:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I think it's a good idea to add some numbers to the opening section that defines what Blackwater is--i.e. roughly how many people they train per year, and who their major clients are. Mcwabaunsee 15:46, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Total number of employees is basic information one would expect to find here. Is this information available somewhere? --RenniePet 12:50, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

Creditable Sources & References for Citation

"Erik Prince's Blackwater suing the families of its slain employees for $10-million ea." -Note- The Daily Kos BLOG is not a Creditable Source or Reference for Citation especially when it itself does not provide a Citation for it's claims.

Congratulations, Blackwater!

With your "contributions" to this article from your corporate IP range, you're currently NUMBER THREE on the list of Most Shameful Wikipedia Spin Jobs!

Are you having trouble reading? The article clearly says Dow Chemical. They manufacture chemicals, they are not military or security contractors. Arkalochori 21:06, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Actually Dow Chemical manufactured Agent Orange for the U.S. Military during the Vietnam War. (I think the list is constantly changing.) --Howrealisreal 23:12, 14 August 2007 (UTC)

Blackwater History in Al Najaf, Iraq (April 2004) - creative but not true.

Blackwater's creative history of what happended in Al Najaf, Iraq in April 2004 is interesting but not completely true. As an eyewitness of the events that transpired in April 2004 in Al Najaf, here is the rest of the story: A team of Marines from 4th ANGLICO, attached to MND-CS, arrived on Al Ándalus to assist in repelling the attack by Al Sadr's Militia which lasted almost the entire month of April. The ANGLICO Marines were also joined by SSgt Allen Truesdale who was attached to a unit training the ICDC (Iraqi Civil Defense Corps). Upon their arrival at the base, the ANGLICO Marines exposed themselves to enemy fire while establishing a communication plan with the Spanish headquarters, the CPA headquarters, and an element from the MND headquarters. The ANGLICO Marines (SSgt Derrick Leath, Sgt Justin Foley, Sgt Luis Hernandez, Sgt Halain Suarez, Cpl Jeff Dusch, and Cpl Fahim Mortazavi) and SSgt Truesdale established an obervation post to maintain a view of the surrounding area and began coordinating Close Air Support to include Apaches, F-14s, F-18s, Hueys, etc. While directing aircraft to areas of interest the Marines receivied incoming enemy fire from Al Sadr Hospital which was a taller building on the perimeter of the base.

The Marines changed observation posts on several occasions to gain the best vantage point of the battlefield. After several days of no sleep, the ANGLICO team worked twenty-four hour operations with a two man watch. During this time, the ANGLICO team controlled a C-130 Gunship, Slayer 75, onto a vehicle after their position was attacked with RPG fire. Additionally, the ANGLICO Marines cleared the delivery of a 500lb bomb, with no collateral damage, on a building killing several combatants while. The ANGLICO team also directed the Spanish sniper team on the engagement of enemy combatants and controlled over twenty CAS missions.

It is curious, that Blackwater would leave out such an important factor in the April, 2004 defense of Najaf. Maybe it was because one of their own spray painted the ANGLICO vehicle and received the beat down of his life for showing such disrespect to a team of Marines who had been fighting along side of them for weeks.

SSgt Derrick Leath and SSgt Allen Truesdale won a Bronze Star with "V", Sgt Foley and Sgt Suarez won a Navy Commendation Medal with "V", and Sgt Hernandez, Cpl Dusch, and Cpl Mortazavi earned a Navy Achievement Medal with "V" for their actions in defending the garrison. The statement that "the U.S. military had declared the city unsafe and would not risk inserting U.S. troops" is a lie. I was there and witnessed the bravery of these Marines who have more than earned the right to be recognized as they lived up to the traditions set by Marines before them and weren't earning six figures doing their job. source: http://anglico.net/news_040929.php G8rlawdog 13:58, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Border Jail???

I am pretty sure that the border jail paragraph (currently the last paragraph in Controversy and Critisms) is not true, but I can't prove that. Is there anything to back that up? Tmaull 17:07, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

I removed it. Arkalochori 04:03, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

A non-user reinstated it. So I redeleted it. Tmaull 18:22, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Separate Section on Involvement in Iraq

Most of the History and Controversy sections of this article are dedicated to information concerning the current Iraq war. It seems like a good idea to establish a separate section dealing with the role Blackwater plays in Iraq (how many employees, what kinds of missions, etc.) and criticism concerning this role (lawsuits, company's response to employee deaths in Iraq, etc.). Or, if the information about Blackwater's activities elsewhere, in Azerbaijan, for example, can be expanded, then a section pertaining to Iraq could fall under that larger category. Mcwabaunsee 20:27, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that is an excellent idea. Tmaull 15:31, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Under the "Iraq Involvement" section there is a dramatic passage concerning Blackwater's defense of the U.S. base in Najaf. The section should be rewritten more objectively. In addition to that, information concerning other incidents of Blackwater misconduct (in addition to the one already discussed), legal battles, the number of Blackwater employees in Iraq, and the extent of government funding, should also be included.Mcwabaunsee 21:41, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Should this page be protected?

The Blackwater USA page seems to be experiencing a high level of vandalism from unregistered users. Should we request that the page be protected for a short period of time? --Pleasantville 19:08, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

I vote yes. Tmaull 02:10, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Mercenaries or not?

I was about to concede defeat on this whole "are they or aren't they mercenaries" issue. But I see from the BBC [1] that they employ (amongst others) "231 third-country nationals ... to protect US state department in Iraq". What's the most military-like work that these "third-country nationals" are doing? If they are employing people, from countries not part of the conflict, to do miltary-type work, the final criteria for a mercenary group would be met. Evercat 02:04, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

They are mercenaries. If they weren't motivated by money, the Americans amongst them could join the US Army. And everyone agrees the foreigners are mercenaries. I'm not too fussed about it though. Contractor/mercenary, not much difference really both motivated by money. And what the hell is this? "International Peace Operations Association, a trade group representing Blackwater and other military contractors" Does that really exist??? Ticklemygrits 06:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Yep, one of their reps was on the News Hour with Jim Lehrer tonight defending Blackwater. Murderbike 07:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

As much as I would like to call them mercenaries, I've been educated by my opponents here and they're quite correct that Americans fighting in a conflict to which America is a party are not legally mercenaries. The Geneva convention (a document they respect and cherish, no doubt) is behind Blackwater on this. 1977 Protocol Addition to the Geneva Conventions, Article 47, Paragraph 2.(d) Evercat 11:40, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

According to reporter Jeremy Scahill, Blackwater employs (among others) Chilean former military in Iraq. Chile isn't part of the "coalition of the willing", therefore those Chileans are mercenaries even per this restrictive definition. Consequently Blackwater employs at least some mercs. in Iraq. I updated the article to reflect this, with source. Niczar 11:54, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. The issue now becomes whether those individuals are doing anything that could reasonably be construed as military-type work. I expect it's rather hard to find out. Evercat 13:12, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

According to Scahill, those Chileans are /former soldiers/. How likely is it that they have been hired as truck drivers or cooks? Niczar 15:49, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

The more general issue is that the business model of the private military industry entails a new, more corporate stance intended to make the industry palatable to government and business in a way that "mercenaries" are not. --Pleasantville 16:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

"In 2005, it worked to train the Naval Sea Commando regiment of Azerbaijan, enhancing their interdiction capabilities on the Caspian Sea.[74]"

Wouldn't this fit the UN def. of mercenary since the US citizens employed by Blackwater are working in a country that the US is not militarily involved in? Murderbike 03:47, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Hmm mere training is not particularly warlike. Evercat 03:08, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

The dictionary definitions are further up the page. After seeing a video with Doug Brooks and Scahill, it's pretty obvious Blackwater don't like the term. They seem to be using an unnecessarily stringant definition of 'mercenary' to deny that they are. But they fit the definition of any dictionary you can find. It's an interesting video, I'd love someone to find sources apart from Scahill.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yn0phnmsEOA&mode=related&search= Ticklemygrits 08:50, 20 September 2007 (UTC) PS in three parts

Yeah, I saw the dict. definition, I just wanted to add some more verification for the term since some people don't like using dict. defs, and need other verification. Murderbike 19:09, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Facilities

Has anyone geo coordinates? I would like to check if there is anything visible on google earth... sounds interessting. --Nemissimo 10:16, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

I found their driving track on google earth at 36°27'28.71"N, 76°12'6.67"W Tmaull 23:08, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Article Summary

I think we should avoid including current events in an article summary. I know people are desperately eager to be the first to add breaking news to an article, but it's going to look ridiculous in a couple of years time when this information is still in the article summary even though by then it'll just be distant blip in the company's history.

Also, if 20 more things happen to the country in the next couple of years, are we supposed to put ALL this info in the article summary? If so, why bother having the summary at all if it's just becoming longer and longer?

I'm removing this information from the article summary for now because it looks ridiculous. 195.99.220.2 17:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

A small amount of current information seems appropriate while it is ongoing, but I haven't been around the article as long so I won't reinsert.. --69.218.58.110 22:23, 23 September 2007 (UTC)