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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Tim Q. Wells (talk | contribs) at 03:27, 2 October 2007 (→‎Ass/arse: ass). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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hoax?

Is this a hoax? Where is the sourcing? VanTucky (talk) 21:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is not a hoax Raul654 21:45, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How about [1]? There is an article on the German Wikipedia - de:Leck_mich_im_Arsch.
"Ass" or "arse"? -- !! ?? 21:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Either one is an acceptable english translation from German. Raul654 21:47, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Late at night, a drunken Salieri would sneak into Mozart's house and vandalize his manuscripts..
I see that the Australian ABC Classic FM went with the slightly less direct "Lick my backside", but it was the morning show. FlowerpotmaN·(t) 22:22, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]


These sources (and more!) need to be added to the article immediately or else it will probably be speedied. As I don't speak German, it is not sure that it isn't a hoax simply translated from a German hoax. Reliable, english language sources please. VanTucky (talk) 21:49, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I assure you it is not a hoax. The colossal, stodgy, and ever-reliable New Grove includes it in the works list, along with probable place and date of composition (Vienna, 1782). These were probably party pieces for his friends, but there don't seem to be a lot of details about exactly how the two canons came about. Antandrus (talk) 21:55, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The Japanese interwiki is awesome (deals with all of the related songs, but claims two are hoaxes). -- !! ?? 22:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Amusing convo

<Ceiling_Cat> now I need a freely licensed version of Lick me in the ass
* Ceiling_Cat looks for a musician
<MessedRocker> ask mindspillage
<MessedRocker> she won't file a sexual harrassment claim with human resources AT ALL
<Ral315> Ceiling_Cat, usually you have to pay extra for that.
<Ceiling_Cat> ROFL
<Ral315> And it's tough to find one who'll play that, so you've gotta shop around. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Raul654 (talk • contribs) 21:58, 9 September 2007 (UTC) [reply]
I'd like to hear Mozart's "rimjob" please. Comradeash 09:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

round

The score seems to indicate it is to be sung as a round. --Random832 22:25, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that is correct. -- !! ?? 22:34, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

rename?

First, if this is a title it needs to be in caps. Second, for clarification and to disambiguate it, shouldn't it say parenthetically something along the lines of "Mozart canon" or "composition"? VanTucky (talk) 22:28, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

(1) No, we do not ever make article names all caps except acronyms; (2) No, we do not disambigauate unless there ambigiousness. Raul654 22:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Disambiguate it from what? I don't think people would type "Lick me in the ass" into Wikipedia and hope to find the anal-oral article. I would personally go for "Leck mich im Arsch", preserving the original name, but that would lose the fact that the title is so amusing. violet/riga (t) 22:32, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
According to the dictionary of idiom (now linked), a better translation is "kiss my arse" or "get stuffed". But this title is much the most amusing (and used in various sources). -- !! ?? 22:33, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mean making the letters all caps like THIS. I mean capitalizing the words to a title. Titles should always be capitalized Raul. It's simple grammar. See One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest or The Spy Who Loved Me (film). I think disambiguating it might prevent the kind of off-hand objection/deletion that has occurred in the article's recent history. VanTucky (talk) 22:37, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I thought you meant all-caps, i.e LICK ME IN THE ASS Raul654 22:40, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Easy mistake. VanTucky (talk) 22:41, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
How often do you "shout" that, Raul? ;) violet/riga (t) 22:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
...if it wasn't for my horse.... Raul654 22:44, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
LMAO! - Ta bu shi da yu 08:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm... given the subject matter, I'd better clarify. L = Laughing. - Ta bu shi da yu 08:13, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Over-literal translation?

I believe "Leck mich im Arsch" would be more appropriately translated "lick my ass" rather than the literal "lick me in the ass". The expression is a famous one in German; it's usually attributed to the 17th century knight Götz von Berlichingen (see Götz von Berlichingen#Quotes, Historical and Cultural references). Mozart would certainly have known this and it's possible that he was alluding to von Berlichingen in his piece. -- ChrisO 22:38, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Could it be kiss - "kiss my ass" - rather than lick? (According to Y.M.C.A. (song), there is a German version of that song entitled "LMAA" - Leck mich am Arsch. I wonder if there is a dance...)
There is apparently another "Leck mich im Arsch!" by Mozart - K213.[2]
Leck mich im Arsch!
Goethe, Goethe
Gutz von Berlichingen! Zweiter Akt;
Die Szene kennt ihr ja!
Rufen wir nur ganz summarisch
Hier wird Mozart literarisch!
That source also gives different lyrics for K233. Perhaps we need disambiguation? -- !! ?? 23:00, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm sure the source above (Dr David C. F. Wright) is a typo - he means K. 231. Those lyrics are also printed and sung in Brilliant's Mozart's Complete Works. I'm going to incorporate those lyrics and the source [3] later into the article. Michael Bednarek 10:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If it was "kiss my ass", that would be "küss mich im Arsch", surely? I'm thinking of the example of Rammstein's song Küss mich Fellfrosch (Kiss my furry frog). -- ChrisO 23:11, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I realize we're having fun here, but this article should have the German title. We don't translate his aria titles. DavidRF 23:52, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, it shouldn't. We're inconsistent in our naming scheme for his article - (see The Marriage of Figaro, for example), and clearly using the German title detracts from understanding what makes this piece notable (e.g, it's baudiness). Raul654 23:57, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, there has been debate about The Marriage of Figaro, The Barber of Seville and The Magic Flute a while back as well. You'll find name changes in their histories. It was decided to stick with english when the piece was known mainly by its translation. This work (and K233) have K1 numbers. Kochel's been dead for 130 years. People have known about these pieces for a long time. Suddenly translating the title of the piece makes it seem like a new musicological discovery. DavidRF 00:21, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with DavidRF - unlike The Marriage of Figaro, K. 231 is not known in the English speaking world under any English title, so its article here should be the German title (as it is in the Köchel catalogue). Michael Bednarek 10:05, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Agree the German title should be used in this case. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 16:22, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The transliteration of the title has sexual connotations that simply would not have been intended by Mozart (or Goethe for that matter). "Kiss my ass" would seem to be a felicitous rendition, capturing both the tone of the original German, as well as remaining close to its literal meaning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.254.147.36 (talk) 08:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You're interpreting into something you don't know. "Lick me in the ass" is way, way too literal. I am not saying it has to be "kiss my ass" even though I think that translation meets the original the most exact way. I also find it a bit too vulgar. --till 02:24, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

April Fools

Must get this up to FA status before next April. This would make the most awesome April Fools FA ever. Raul654 22:51, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mozart fictitious connection to Tourette syndrome (TS) via scatological language on the mainpage as April Fool's joke; hmmmm, doesn't do a lot to assuage my concerns about having TS anywhere near the front page, and is exactly the sort of thing that I've always worried about. But then, I could be wrong; it could be a backdoor approach to better awareness of correct information about coprolalia. I recall some folk questioned at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Tourette syndrome why Mozart warranted mention at all in the TS article, and I had to remind them that this was the nasty rumor that wouldn't go away and continued to get widespread publicity. TS will surely be the butt of this joke. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:31, 9 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Uhh... you said butt. heh heh Titoxd(?!? - cool stuff) 21:16, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Recordings

I have a recording of this! Nicol Matt and the Chamber Choir of Europe. Its on the Brilliant Classics box set of Mozart's complete works. The first disc of Volume 8 is "Canons" and K231 and K233 are two of the forty-one tracks. K231 is 1:58 and K233 us 1:46. Pretty choral canons. If I didn't know the words, they'd sound like something sung by a choir in church. Here's the music match page for the disc: [4]. A canon discussion is here (including the scatological ones): [5] DavidRF 00:35, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

And I found this on Amazon.com: http://www.amazon.com/Mozart-Time-Karl-Ditters-Dittersdorf/dp/B00000E6S8 Looks real. And Mozart was a completely juvenile individual, so it really could have happened.OfficeGirl 01:49, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Uh, what is your point? Nobody is suggesting this is a hoax. Raul654 01:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Outrageous

This is outrageous... truly. Actually this is possibly the greatest embarrassment to Wikipedia that I have ever come across, mostly due to the effort put into the accuracy of this article. This is akin to some errant email from a celebrated genius writer being included amongst unnamed genius's works. And then Wikipedia picking up on the email and creating a moundain out of a mole hill. Completely outrageous, in fact I may resign over this.-BillDeanCarter 17:00, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit dramtic, don't you think? The fact is, it's a piece of music by one who is considered by a large number of people as one of the greatest ever, and it's been recorded (at least twice), and has been given a proper number in his catalog to boot. While it may be a "trifle", its subject matter -- especially considering when it was written -- makes it most certainly worth writing about. I would imagine any detailed Mozart bio would certainly talk about it. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 17:08, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think they would whisper about it in a secret corner of one of their pages. Perhaps buried in a large footnote and definitely not placed in the index.-BillDeanCarter 17:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My text-on-the-internet sarcasm detector is a bit wonky - the above comment is a joke, right? Raul654 04:39, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Whatever BillDeanCarter's intentions were (and I agree with Raul654, they seem rather nebulous), in their current state they don't warrant any further consideration. Michael Bednarek 05:20, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, I'm very serious and I'm writing up a new piece of wiki policy to prevent articles like this from coming about again.-BillDeanCarter 15:05, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
You gonna try and ban fuck and ass and maybe even mother fucker...and how about cunt...too? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:02, 11 September 2007
Thanks for pointing out cunt to me. It needed work, which I've now started. They say it's an ill wind... --Rodhullandemu 04:24, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh... yes, I guess I will have to. Basically anything that assaults the sensibilities should be banned.-BillDeanCarter 19:25, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The bottom line is: Wikipedia is not censored for taste. VanTucky Talk 19:37, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh goody. Can we ban Britney Spears and Pokémon, please? -- ChrisO 20:28, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
An astonishing proposal on the 6th anniversary of 9/11 IMO. WP should present an unreal version of the world? I hope not. I's just say this: if you think WP should censor itself, you shouldn't be editing it in the first place. --Rodhullandemu 23:10, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, possibly it is me who is being outrageous.-BillDeanCarter 23:58, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about the procedures to create new policies, but I suspect it requires a bit more than someone deciding to "write them up". The foundation of such new policies would need arguments a bit more solid than what you have advanced here so far - mere "outrage" won't do. Michael Bednarek 02:13, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
WP:CENSORED. I certainly hope you are not an authority figure, because this is very unbecoming of a wikipedia policy administrator. 216.37.86.10 18:42, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, no, I'm no authority figure. I'm actually a professional book burner and people who know me well have figured out that I intend to sanitize all available text over the course of my lifetime. Over time as a reader you realize what you don't and do want to read and you try to enforce those tastes upon others. I think it's natural.-BillDeanCarter 18:53, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Censorship offends my—and many others—sensibilities. This could get complicated. --j 21:38, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I predict an ED article will come of this. ←BenB4 04:07, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Score?

I don't suppose someone would like to make an image of the first few measures of the score for use in this article? Raul654 06:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

There's already a link to the score in the article. Although I could use a music notation program to make an image of the first few bars, I can't quite see how that would improve the article. After all, this is a minor work, it's not an article on LvB 5th which shows the famous da-da-da-daaa. Do you know of any other Wikipedia article showing incipits? Michael Bednarek 14:05, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I expect it's fairly common. Here's one - Six Moments Musicaux (Rachmaninoff) - I reviewed for GA the other day. Also, Goldberg Variations. –Outriggr § 20:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, there's nothing at all wrong with having a libre image of a part of the score. It helps enhance the article. Especially as this is a canon. Remember, the articles need to stand alone for themselves. ELs are helpful, but shouldn't be considered in getting the article to its highest quality. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 20:52, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's rather impractical exactly because it is a canon. To illustrate the structure of this canon (remember, it's for six voices), all 24 bars need to be shown. Look at the score and tell me which bars should be shown in this article to enhance its understanding. Again, this is a minor work, miles away from the examples given (LvB, S.Rachmaninoff, JSB). Michael Bednarek 05:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Article name?

I got curious about this article after spotting it being discussed in some talk page correspondence, because my recollection of learning German is that "Leck mich im Arsch" was usually translated as "kiss my arse"; I guess that would be "kiss my ass" if this article is US English. I checked on Google Books to see how scholars have usually translated it. Searching for "Leck mich im Arsch" arse finds three hits, two for "kiss my arse" and one for "suck my arse"; searching for "Leck mich im Arsch" ass finds four more hits: some for "lick" and some for "kiss". What do Mozart books usually use as the translation? Seems like whatever they use should be the article title; I would have thought it would be "Kiss My Ass". Mike Christie (talk) 12:11, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As I said before: the article's name should be the first line of the German text - that's how K. 231 is known. Michael Bednarek 13:15, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That would work too. I see that this has been discussed above; sorry I missed that when I first posted.
Is there a standard used by music articles for titling articles on particular pieces? I checked a couple: Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring is in English, though using an archaic translation since that's the name it's well-known by; the less well-known Herz und Mund und Tat und Leben is linked from that page. The latter has the English in parens; I suspect the former should also have the original German, if it isn't to use the German title. Is there a WikiProject that would define such a standard? In any case the current title seems wrong, because it's simply a technically correct translation of the German, rather than the name of the piece as used in the literature. I can see why Raul654 feels the English title is what makes the piece notable, but unfortunately the piece is simply never called that, and the current article title is, I think, bawdier in English than it is German, which also seems wrong. I hesitate to put in a move request since I'm not an active editor of the article, but I'd think either "Kiss My Ass (Mozart canon)" or "Leck mich im Arsch" would be better; in either case there should be a translation to the other language in the lead. Mike Christie (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
At a minimum, it appears that the "Lick me in the ass" translation is a stretch. I support using the German name, but even then, we get into translation issues when we bring in the English name. Everyone I've seen opining on the topic (and it's been written about on the TS article for well over a year, IIRC) has agreed with Kiss my arse. I don't speak German, so I'm taking their word for it. Let's get this renamed correctly soon, though; what are we waiting for? Whether the German or the correct English translation, the current title seems incorrect. Consensus above is for the German name; perhaps we can then include a discussion of the translation similar to what is found in Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome; much of that text (about the translation) was written by German editors of the Mozart article IIRC. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It seems to me that it should be titled with the German name precisely because there are issues with the translation, and the lede can say "alternatively translated as 'Kiss My Ass', 'Suck My Ass', etc." or something similar. If it become popularly known by one of the English translations, than the page can be moved. Natalie 17:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree; unless a work has become popularly known by an English translation (Magic Flute being an obvious example which has been cited previously, it should remain in the original language, when this can be rendered using standard character sets. I am sceptical of your optimism that it *might* become known by an English translation, but I am alive to the possibility that one day some teenager might come to WP and type <rude words> into the search box. I'm sure it would improve their knowledge even to become aware that someone called Mozart ever existed. --Rodhullandemu 00:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

 Done

OK, I've put the move request in -- to the German name, since that seems to have the most consensus. Listed at WP:RM, and this section is for comments. My preference is for the German name too, since the English name only seems warranted if there is a standard translation well known in musicological circles, and that doesn't appear to be the case. Mike Christie (talk) 21:56, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Concur with move to German name. The song is not known in English, and there are issues with this particular translation to English. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 21:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak support Though I would prefer it to remain in English, I feel the translation is too contentious (even among reliable sources) to ever be satisfied. Let's nip the problem in the bud, and ensure that the issue can be treated neutrally. VanTucky Talk 22:31, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Concur with move to German name. I was worried that this article might be a hoax, so I asked a friend of mine who works as a translator of German into English to look over the lyric for plausibility. He told me the title translates as "Kiss My Arse". As to the US/UK distinction ass/arse, that's a collateral issue which I'm sure has arisen before. Would it be contrary to WP:Reliability and WP:NPOV to put in a footnote along the lines of "Opinion is divided but title could be translated as "Lick Me In The Arse" (colloquially, "Kiss My Arse")."? Just a thought. My concern is that some keen college student might later edit the page & add a translation anyway, which would lead to the need for a revert, and again, and again, and .... SWIM? --Rodhullandemu 23:02, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I still think it should be in English - can we instead get a consensus on the proper translation (i.e., move Lick Me In The Ass to Kiss Me On The Ass, Kiss My Ass, etc)? DeusExMachina 23:16, 11 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The German name is more canonical and avoids emphasizing one of the translations. "Kiss my ass." is definitely more accurate but apparently not as common (judging from comments here), so it's best to sidestep the issue entirely. We can use the German version primarily and thus give both (or more) translations equal weight. --FunnyMan 10:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Apart from the fact that many people think the literal translation is incorrect, why the title of an article about a German song is the English translation of its title is beyond me. --Hpesoj00 11:34, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The name is poorly translated (it's literal, not by meaning) and is almost certainly based on a quote, which was initially given in German by that famous knight, already referenced above. CsikosLo 11:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. As much as I do love "Lick Me in the Ass," I would have to agree that it is obviously too literal, and would be more appropriately rendered as just "Lick My Ass." It rolls off the tongue much more smoothly and sounds like a natural common phrase, which it seems to be in German. I agree that while "Kiss My Ass" is a much more common expression in English, it both looses its history and is inaccurate; if it was meant to be kiss, I am sure there is a word for kiss in German, and he sure didn't use it. I also think it is obvious that using the German would be absurd, as it would completely miss the point, make the article pretty much pointless, and it would quickly be forgotten and lost in the sea of Wikipedia. The German article is obviously instantly recognizable in German. This is just another modern attempt at bowdlerization, and will look just as silly and misguided in retrospect. I am glad that Wikipedia is more concerned with reality than social fads. The only reason that "Kiss My Ass" has been used in the past is that is that the people translating it were uncomfortable doing so accurately as "Lick My Ass." I do not see why we should perpetuate that. Anyway, I just really think it would be a shame to basically kill and bury this article by changing it to German and having it never see the light of day again. Just think of all the views it's getting now; how many do you think it will get once it's changed? I'd have to suspect that to the majority of the human population this is the most interesting thing Mozart has ever done, if they'd only ever had a chance to know about it, which you are proposing they won't. I don't see how encouraging any interesting in Mozart, classical music, history, and other cultures can be seen as such a horrible thing. Please don't perpetuate and support this decades (centuries?) old conspiracy of censorship. Heck, this is probably one of the most interesting articles on the entire Wikipedia, and you just know that no one will ever read it if it's in German, sorry. Elgaroo 12:27, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    For the record, since I am the person who proposed the move, I'll just come out and say that I am not trying to bowdlerize this. I'll be perfectly happy with this name if it can be justified. Mike Christie (talk) 12:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    For the record, a lot of people see it NOW, because it's linked to from the main page. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:38, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    And it would be linked from the main page if it were titled "Leck mich im Arsch"? Elgaroo 12:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes. I'm not following Elgaroo's logic: it seems to be, keep an inaccurate translation for an article name simply because it's sensationalist title will generate more attention. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:06, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support there is evidently no standard English translation, so it should be at the original language title - with redirects from here and perhaps "Kiss my arse" and other likely variants, and a hat note on Kiss My Ass (worth it just to bemuse the rap fans). David Underdown 12:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support for two reasons:
    1. "Eine kleine Nachtmusik" is not translated to "A Little Night Music"
    2. "Leck mich im Arsch" means something more like "Fuck you" in English (in English-language films that are translated/dubbed in German, if a character says "Fuck you", the translation is not "Fick dich", but rather "Leck mich")--Quoth nevermore 13:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't think Eine Kline is a good example -- it's pretty much universally known by that. This isn't exactly a well known piece, though the argument for changing it to something like "Lick My Ass" certainly makes sense. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 13:37, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support This is a literal translation and not a translation by meaning. Foreign classical pieces should be referenced by their original, foreign titles. Translations, if any, should be provided in the body of the article instead. After all, this is supposed to be an encyclopedic reference. Zylox 13:21, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Keep in German until there is an agreed-upon English translation. Chl 13:45, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The article's current name is at best misleading, as the song's real name is a German one without a widely known translation, and at worst original research, as it unnecessarily emphasizes a particular, questionable translation. Censorship and bowdlerization? How is Leck mich im Arsch not bawdy? Detracting from it's bawdiness? Again, how is Leck mich im Arsch not bawdy already? And keeping it in English to attract more attention? I think accuracy is a higher priority here than attention-grabbing. -- RG2 13:49, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support There is no standard english translation, and the one that we are currently using is misleading. Borisblue 16:55, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Question on move

 Done

Consensus is pretty clear, and there is a huge backlog (at least a week) at requested moves. What are we waiting for, more sensationalism on the main page? We need an admin to complete the move to Leck mich im Arsch. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 13:54, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm on it. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:04, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, page move is done, and I updated the Did you know? link to point to the new title (first time I ever edited the Main Page :-)) -- RoySmith (talk) 14:14, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
PS, it seems obvious that the first sentence of the article now needs to be updated to reflect the title change. I'm neither a student of German nor of classical music, so I'll leave that to those more qualified to decide the best way to fix that. -- RoySmith (talk) 14:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
 Done SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:00, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Cite journal

It looks like the editor who made this change doesn't understand what a PubMed (PMID) link to a journal article is. I changed it back to the correct cite template. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 10:51, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference in Amadeus?

In Amadeus (film), there's a scene near the beginning of the movie where Mozart is playing backwards-talking games on the floor with some woman (maybe that was his future wife?) and asked her to Kiss my ass (backwards). I'm guessing that's a subtle reference to this song that the in-crowd all got and went right over my head? -- RoySmith (talk) 16:43, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mozart's baudy sense of humor is well-known from his letters. It wasn't isolated to this composition. DavidRF 17:03, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And if you'll read the article, you'll notice the original lyrics weren't even known until 1991, well after the movie was made. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 17:18, 12 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Reference to anal-oral contact

This clause: "apparently a reference to anal-oral contact" seems to me to need a citation. Since I know this is (ahem) a sensitive area, I thought I'd mention it here rather than slap a fact tag on it. My reason is that if we were to quote someone notable saying "kiss my ass" to someone else, we wouldn't annotate it with a phrase such as this. It could be that Mozart was referring to sexual practices; he could also have just been saying "kiss my ass". I don't know which it is, but I suggest that a cited authority would be good if the article is to make an assertion like that. Mike Christie (talk) 02:43, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd slap the fact tag on the end. Heck, I'd dump it out of the article if things weren't likely to become so inflamed. Best sit on it for a while and see what shakes out. ←BenB4 04:12, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I entirely agree, and intend to rewrite that paragraph soon. "LmiA" has as much sexual connotation in German as "kiss my ass" has in English - both are mere figures of speech. So, the clause , apparently ... should be omitted.
Also, the content of the paper quoted on Tourette's Syndrome only supports the negative argument and the Wikipedia article referenced is also very ambiguous. In short, no-one is seriously suggesting that Mozart's use of language has any relevance to the question whether he might have had TS or not. Consequently, the whole sentence needs to be rewritten or omitted. Michael Bednarek 05:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Double entendres aplenty! Loves it. Mike H. I did "That's hot" first! 03:38, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Leck mir den Arsch fein recht schön sauber

Wait a second. If another song was the same phrase followed by "nice and clean" doesn't that strongly suggest that the phrase was not being used in an idiomatic fashion? ←BenB4 02:10, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

As the article says, "Later research has indicated that the latter composition is probably the work of Wenzel Trnka (1739-1791)". So no. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 03:13, 14 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not convinced the work of a local contemporary doesn't show the same kind of usage. ←BenB4 07:15, 26 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

sweet

cool article...it would make a sweet rock song (LICK ME IN THE ASS!!!!!). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 198.82.78.103 (talk) 05:08, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ass/arse

We'd better start discussing this then. (The article was protected and Raul654 cautioned after this 3RR report.)

Arguments for "ass":

  • It was the spelling used by the original creator of the article, and should be retained according to WP:ENGVAR

Arguments for "arse":

  • Reduces ambiguity, an ass is a donkey outside of America, an arse is an arse everywhere (see the "Opportunities for commonality" section under WP:ENGVAR)
  • It sounds more like the original "arsch" and is etymologically related
  • (A somewhat weak argument...) Germany lies in Europe, close to Britain, and WP:ENGVAR says that "national ties to a topic" can be a reason for changing the spelling

Melsaran (talk) 11:36, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The third argument is as ridiculous as anything. The second one makes no sense -- so what if they sound similar? Language sounds as language does. That leaves one argument on each side. Personally, I don't see that there's such a deep ambiguity of using 'ass'. Wictionary says it's an "older word for donkey" -- is it commonly used? And furthermore -- and here's the most important part -- is it actually NOT understood in other places to mean butt? Being from the US, I have no idea about the answer to that. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 12:12, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is fairly commonly used in the meaning of "donkey" outside the US – it is given as the primary meaning at [6], and Wiktionary can be edited by everyone so it is not really a reliable source. I suppose the word is understood outside the US as meaning "butt" as well, but I still don't really see the benefit of using a slightly ambiguous word over using a word understood by all. Note that the second argument was adapted from this anon edit summary, I don't say that I think it is an important argument or anything. Melsaran (talk) 12:17, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ass. None of the three arguments for "arse" convinces me. There's no effective ambiguity -- I find it hard to believe anyone could read this and not be clear what the intended meaning is. The "sounds like" doesn't carry any force either: when one translates a phrase, one looks for accurate translations, not ones that necessarily have similarity of etymology or sound. The third argument also doesn't apply, as far as I can see; the examples given in WP:ENGVAR make it clear that "national ties" mean much more than this.
The only thing I could see justifying a switch of national variety would be if musicological sources written or published on one side of the Atlantic consistently use the word belonging to the English dialect on the other side of the Atlantic. I.e. if US books on Mozart consistently say "arse" in their translations of this work's title, then "arse" is for some reason a standard. As far as I know that is not the case. Mike Christie (talk) 12:54, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
One possible solution to the ambiguity issue would be to not write "ass", but "ass". But (sorry), I'm having a hard time believing there really is any confusion when written in context. Take for example, Monty Python. In Life of Brian, one character says, You know, something peckable but not leprosy, which is a pain in the ass. They're a British act, and I assume the scripts are written in colloquial British English. Surely nobody thinks they're talking about donkeys here. Likewise when the BBC uses kick-ass to describe an actress. If you do a google search for "ass site:co.uk", you'll find lots of uses of ass to mean buttocks in contemporary british writing. I think we're making a mountain out of a molehill here. -- RoySmith (talk) 13:55, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Original research? That's really REALLY grasping for straws. It's the SAME word. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 14:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Meaning, we don't do the translating of the entire phrase ourselves; we rely on sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 14:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"Ass" and "arse" are both correct, they're just in different variants of English. The fact that the majority of sources uses British English doesn't mean that we should do so too. On Wikipedia, neither variant of English is preferred. We rely on sources to verify things, but we don't need to verify that "arsch" can be translated with "ass". Melsaran (talk) 14:59, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
When we have multiple reliable sources mentioning a specific translation, I don't see a reason to discard or ignore them; they are the indication that arse is the most common term in use for this song. We need not engage in our own speculation; we have sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It's not speculation, and it's not even related to this title in the first place. They are the same word, and the German is that word as well. It falls under the 'common knowledge' clause. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 16:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
"The Compleat Mozart: A Guide to the Musical Works of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart" by Neal Zaslaw and William Cowdery can be searched on Google Books; it uses "ass". "Most common term" is not enough for me, Sandy; I think perhaps you mean that it's the standard term, but I strongly suspect it just reflects the language origins of the authors of the works in question. Maybe a comparison is with "Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring"; a modern colloquial translation would be "Jesus remains my joy", if my German skills are not too decayed. Nobody would use "Jesu" instead of "Jesus" in a translation now, but it remains in the title because that title is a standard. To overcome the WP:ENGVAR constraint on leaving this article in US English, I think it has to be positively demonstrated that "arse" is standard usage outside British English writing. The book I cite above seems to me to demonstrate that that is not the case. Mike Christie (talk) 16:15, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Now we're talking sources, finally :-) I believe Simkin is a US author writing in a US journal; I could be wrong. Several other points: I'm not convinced we need to overcome ENGVAR (original author) since the original article title (Lick me in the Ass) was a faulty original research translation; we need to get back to sources. And, while I really don't care if this article comes out as arse or ass, I strongly oppose any guideline on Wiki replacing attribution to reliable sources as the main criteria we use for deciding these matters. It doesn't matter here, but it does matter on a lot of other articles I edit, where POV pushers try to use their own translations to push a point of view, in spite of what reliable sources say. We must stick to sources; not for this article, but for the general principles of Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Correction, I checked. Simkin appears to be a US author writing in a British journal. Half and half, not sure that helps. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:04, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) Agreed on the importance of sources. I went back to the history of the page, and the sequence is this:
  • Created with "ass" in the title but "arse" in a content sentence. Diff. I think this does not establish a variety of English.
  • Lyrics added using "arse" in the translation. Diff.
  • One instance of "arse" changed to "ass" with an edit summary of "consistent with title". Still no definite language established. Diff.
  • Many edits later, Raul made all uses consistent within the article. Diff. This was the first time the article had ever had a consistent usage. I think this is the edit that establishes the prevailing English variant to be used.
However, I agree that sources overrule ENGVAR. I do think the burden of proof is on those who want to argue from sources; and I think you also have to find a good argument to discount "The Compleat Mozart", which uses "ass". I'll certainly change my !vote to "arse" if those sources support it, Sandy; I don't think you've put the argument together yet, though. Mike Christie (talk) 18:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
(post edit conflict) Sandy, I think US writer in British journal doesn't establish it; editorial policy is too likely to have overridden spelling. Mike Christie (talk) 18:19, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
argh, do I really have to go get that stupid Simkin book? (And, don't you need to find more sources than one :-) I haven't checked google books yet; I'm not proficient with its use.) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC) OK, I figured out how to search in the Mozart book. It says "Kiss me on the ass", which is a translation not even reflected in the article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The way I see it is that if RS is to trump ENGVAR, then we need to definitely establish that the reliable sources translate "Arsch" as "arse". If you had three or four US sources using "arse", I agree the "Compleat Mozart" would not suffice as a counterexample. But so far all that seems to be established is that the sources (reliable and otherwise) translate "Arsch" according to local usage. So RS doesn't require either one, and ENGVAR governs. Am I missing something? Mike Christie (talk) 22:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, I'm seeing it differently. I'm looking at the numbers. I've got so far four sources that use arse (Kammer, Telegraph, Sacks and Simkin) and you've got one that uses ass. And I've not yet checked the Simkin book (and don't look forward to doing that, it's an obscure publisher, so I'll probably have to order it online). I'm not sure which sources trump, though; I wish the music people would give us some strong, definitive musical source, since mine are all medical. But we've got other issues, in that now several sources give different translations anyway. Why don't we find a way to write the translation section comprehensively, considering all different accounts and versions? SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I actually spend many days worrying about POV pushing on other articles where editors engage in original translations from Spanish that have far more significant real life implications than Mozart's historical arse or ass :-)) I strongly believe this decision must be based upon reliable sources. SandyGeorgia (Talk) —Preceding signed but undated comment was added at 18:01, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ass, per the manual of style, and per the long standing rule that we don't change an article from what it used originally. Raul654 19:16, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arse I see no substantial national ties to advocate for either side, and the idea that someone would confuse the anatomical and zoological usages in this case is patently insane. The grammar is too clear, and it's a part of common knowledge in its colloquial perjorative sense. However, arse does sound superficially closer to the German original. Also, and this is totally subjective reasoning on my part, I think using arse may more easily prevent the kind of superficial, joking treatment of the article that has occurred (what with the April Fool's suggestions and the like). This isn't a noteworthy subject because it's a lurid song title (God knows there are plenty of those, even in antiquity), but because it's Mozart. I don't want this article devolving into a piece of obscene trivia. VanTucky Talk 19:32, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Vulgarity To everywhere in the world except the US, "ass" sounds incredibly coy. You might as well say "Kiss my bot-bot." The original German title and words were meant to be vulgar. "Arse" is pleasantly vulgar, and is therefore a better translation than "ass".82.138.203.101 21:48, 15 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arse The German phrase was made famous by Johann Wolfgang von Goethe's drama about the historical figure of Götz von Berlichingen. Both these Wikipedi articles give arse in their English version of this quote. So for the sake of internal consistency, it should be used here as well. I also think it is etymologically a much better fit, see cognate. Michael Bednarek 13:00, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This is a specious argument - "internal consistency" refers to consistency within an article, which is what we have here now with "ass". Inter-article consistency is a goal we long ago realized was hopeless, hence the rules about American versus British spelling. Raul654 16:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would prefer "arse" - it is less ambiguous and closer to the original German. But it is hardly a matter of great importance. -- !! ?? 10:19, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak Arse Per WP:ENGVAR, I'm not particularly concerned either way, because of WP:ENGVAR... but even though the article started with "ass", I think "arse" is probably ever so slightly preferable. While I'm sure people the world over will eventually "get it" either way, Arse is a little more natural for non-Americans, while not being any less natural for Americans. (Also, I just wanted the opportunity to put "Weak Arse" in bold face type and my edit summary ;D ) --Jaysweet 16:16, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Also, when you "arseume," you make an arse out of u and me. --Jaysweet 16:17, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
What are you talking about, arse per engvar? The use oArse is directly contradicted by engvar: If an article has evolved using predominantly one variety, the whole article should conform to that variety, unless there are reasons for changing it on the basis of strong national ties to the topic. Raul654 16:36, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
My comment was phrased in a confusing way. Check it now and see if it makes more sense. The "weak" part of the vote is per ENGVAR, the "arse" part of the vote is not. --Jaysweet 16:56, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, Arse because ILIKEIT Raul654 16:57, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
heh... I'm not sure if that's supposed to be a clever pun or not, but I gotta point a couple things out...
First of all, WP:ILIKEIT is an argument to avoid in deletion discussions, not necessarily in discussions over article content. For instance, if debating between two possible phrasings for a sentence, there pretty much is no other argument other than "I like it." So even if that was my reasoning, your associating that reasoning with the guideline against WP:ILIKEIT is a red herring.
And secondly, no, not because "I like it," but because I think it is ever so slightly more clear what is meant. Granted, WP:ENGVAR doesn't have a specific exemption for when one variation is more clear than the other, but I don't feel so bad about that given WP:IAR. The letter of the law says "Ass," sure, because of WP:ENGVAR. But I think in this particular case the article would be improved with the use of "Arse."
Okay, this is just too silly now. heh... --Jaysweet 17:04, 17 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Very silly. And best to consult some non-Americans regarding this then -- particularly a German. KyuuA4 19:24, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps in American English. But in the Queen's English, "Ass" is a type of donkey. Martintg 03:13, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And in American English "Arse" means absolutely nothing. Do you have a point? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 03:42, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I will refrain from voting for now. I need a painting of Mozarts behind for investigation to make sure whether it looks more assy or arsey. Possibly a reference to peer reviewed pornographic magazine would also help in making the decision. Владимир И. Сува Чего? 20:21, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arse-ing around - Preferable to ass, and though it counts for absolutely nothing, I have a German friend who insists that he always uses "arse", not "ass", when conversing in English among his fellow Germans. DEVS EX MACINA pray 04:08, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: There seems to be some confusion as to which is more vulgar. "Ass" is plenty vulgar in the states. Certainly not polite sunday dinner vocabulary. The donkey connotation is only used these days by people attempting to get away with saying profanity. No one would say the mascot of the democratic party was an "ass" (except maybe some republicans). I thought the main reason the americans switched to the 'ass' spelling in the first place was that the british didn't pronounce the 'r' in 'arse' anyways. I'd vote for the one that would cause the least amount of confusion. But, looking at the size of this discussion, I'd have no idea which one that is.DavidRF 06:06, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Arse. The New Grove uses it, and "ass" strikes me as a bit parochial/Americentric. Opus33 18:07, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
And "arse" isn't? Believe me, it sounds very odd to American ears to hear that word at all. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 18:19, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Given that we're talking about a European composer, the fact it sounds odd to American ears is unfortunate, but more appropriate than replacing "arse" with "ass". DEVS EX MACINA pray 23:00, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no. We use the native form if an article on a topic... has strong ties to a particular English-speaking nation.-WP:ENGVAR Being European has nothing to do with it. Raul654 01:11, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Depends on your definition of "nation". Mozart has strong ties to the European Union (being from Europe), and they use British English. DEVS EX MACINA pray 01:31, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give you points for creativity, but sorry, no. Raul654 01:53, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If we were talking about a piece from 2002 instead of 1782, you MIGHT have a point. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 02:05, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The argument for "ass" just seems weaker to me, just on the pure chance it was authored by an American it should stay as "ass"? Even though Germans who speak English are more likely to say "arse"? I can't believe I'm having an argument about the ettiquette of using a particular version of a vulgarity for another, oh well. I just wish we'd come up with a Wikipedian English standard or something, but the likelihood of that is miniscule. DEVS EX MACINA pray 02:22, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Arguments like this are exactly why there /shouldn't/ be a standard. As I said, 'arse' just looks really odd. So does colour, and a lot of other words. But of course they are perfectly valid. And the number of English speakers that use one or the other is quite high on BOTH ends, which is the major point. Outside of obvious things like locale-based articles, how would you propose one is better than the other? Maybe US English, as WP's servers are in Florida. Or always use color, as that's what the WP article is at, not to mention the help files...but always use aluminium (granted, that probably happens anyway, but I digress, not to mention it wouldn't come up as much). See the problem? ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 02:51, 21 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agee with ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ and find Raul654's revert unjustified. Michael Bednarek 09:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I'm weary of seeing this characterized as a British/American spelling issue when it's not; it's a matter of how the reliable sources translate the song name, and that is clearly Lick my arse or Kiss my arse, and has been established on at least three other articles and in every source that has surfaced. I honestly can't believe we're having to discuss this, particularly with such a strong consensus for the correct translation of Kiss my arse. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:27, 1 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Saleable"

Re: "More saleable"? How so? Prove it. In fact, source it. What's it doing there, besides adding a chatty tone?)

I'm pretty sure I didn't make it up when I added it here, but I can't find the original source again now. I believe it was something to do with the publisher thinking it would be more likely that the buying public would spend money to acquire the music to a song entitled "Let us be glad" rather than "Kiss my arse". Perhaps a dodgy Google-powered translation from a German source. Never mind. -- !! ?? 11:18, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Mozart and TS

This edit delinked from the original article containing full information, and linked instead to an article with two sentences and a proposed merge. Raul, are you saying you prefer that the article content be in the article Mozart and Tourette syndrome, even though no credible source indicates he had TS and the topic is already dealt with thoroughly as speculation at Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome? I'm not understanding the reasoning behind delinking to full info in favor of an article that is a proposed merge to that article. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:29, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Generally, you want to link to the most specific article possible. In this case, the scatological title and lyrics have been used as evidence to support the contention that Mozart had Tourette syndrome - I think that Mozart and Tourette syndrome is clearly a more relevant link than Sociological and cultural aspects of Tourette syndrome If someone wants to rework the prose to figure out a way of linking the other article as well, I don't have any problem with that - but as written, I didn't see how. Raul654 19:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]
OK, I'll wait to figure out where to park the text depending on what happens with Mozart and Tourette syndrome; I think it strange to have an article about Mozart's non-TS, and I suspect it was created because the eidtor didn't realize the content was already in the TS article, but if that article stays, I'll move the content there. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 19:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

'Souces'

Can someone please explain to me how in the world it matters that a source HAPPENS to use a certain version of the SAME word? This isn't a case where the difference actually means something different (like the aformentioned Night on Bald Mountain, or something where the tense might be different, etc). Again, this is the same word. Ass = Arse. ♫ Melodia Chaconne ♫ 03:15, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

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