Talk:Druze

Nirvana?!

The article saids "The Druze believe that, in every time period, these five principles were personified in five different people who came down together to Earth to teach humans the true path to God and nirvana". From where did "nirvana" appeared here? - AKoan 13:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)

Removal of Unqualified Tabs

Please remove the Tab on Islam on this page.

As a scholar of the Druze and living as a member of this community, it is deeply troubling to see this tab appear on a page about the Druzes.

In many countries, Druzes are recognised as an independent religion, with their own system of courts that do not follow Sharia, and Druzes do not hold any real Islamic beliefs (e.g.: (1) reincarnation, (2) elevation of prophets like Jethro, (3) no special or overriding importance on Muslim sites or places of importance to that faith, (4) belief in luminaries like Plato, (5) lack of prayer facilities/practices (Druzes do not pray in Mosques because Druze philosophy is quite critical of religious symbolism, indeed, some posit that Druzes do not place an importance on prayer at all- which leads back to the quality of immanence - the belief that all people embody good, and by doing good to others, there is no need to "pray" in order to find communion with God).

Three core precepts of the Druze faith make it rather difficult to harmonise with Islam:

Prohibition of polygamy (in contradiction to Islamic systems of belief and practice)

Prohibition of slavery (the 'Jethro' fable, and again, leading back to the equality of men and women, and essentially, the unity of all humankind)

Absolute separation of Chruch and State (which invalidates the application of Sharia to civil affairs)

Moreover, Druzes have also endured persecution by Muslims over a considerable period of time. These are not confined to the events like the Lebanon Civil War, but during and following the genealogy of the faith itself, when Druzes were forced to conceal their faith becuae of their differences from Islam.

Please pay attention to historical sensitivities and remove the tab.

The article had been in the Category:Shi'a Islam, which is why I think the banner was there. I am removing the article from that category. John Carter 21:47, 26 July 2007 (UTC)

Removed this comment from the lower portion of the article, under the source link:

as this is on a US government website and there is no copyright notice to the contrary, I assume this is in the public domain?

...as it doesn't belong in the article. Said lower portion needs to be merged... I'll put it on my list of articles to work on, but that list's getting long... -- Jake 08:32, 2003 Sep 21 (UTC)

Some more than 1.100,000 Druze exist in the Middle-east today.

There are 700,000 Druze in Syria and 400,000 in Lebanon and about 100,000 in Israel

Any sources? Tim Bray 23:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Link to Israeli Druze photo site

The following link was on the page, then removed, then put back by me, then removed again, and I just put it back once more.

• Photo gallery of Druz in Israel

Will Jayjg please explain why that site is not allowed to be in the links category here? What's wrong with that site? I absolutely don't understand why you think there should be no link to that site on this page.--Daniel575 12:48, 16 October 2005 (UTC)

It's a commercial site whose owner has been spamming links to it into many Wikipedia articles for months. Jayjg ^(talk) 03:43, 23 October 2005 (UTC)

Silly Azzam Azzam story

The narrative of the spy swap between Egypt and Israel has no relevance to the big picture of the Druze community/religion. I'll remove it unless someone disagrees in a reasonable way. Tim Bray 23:56, 1 Mar 2005 (UTC)

It was a big deal for the Druze community in Israel. I'm not sure why you would want to take it out. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:05, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Because it was a minor side-show of a side-show in the larger Middle East story. Would you fill up the stories on other religious and ethnic groups with anecdotes of prisoner-of-war swaps? I want to take it out because it doesn't belong in this article. Perhaps Azzam is now a prominent enough person to deserve his own entry?Tim Bray 00:10, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Well, if you wanted to create an article on him, and link to it, that might make sense. Jayjg ^(talk) 00:15, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Working on it... parking the text here so we don't lose it: Tim Bray 00:33, 2 Mar 2005 (UTC)

On December 5, 2004 Egypt released the jailed Israeli Druze Azzam Azzam; in return, Israel freed six jailed Egyptian students accused of conspiring to kill Israeli soldiers. Azzam Azzam was arrested in Cairo in 1996 while working at a joint business venture between an Egyptian plant and an Israeli textile firm at which he was employed. Originally accused of industrial espionage, he was later accused of using women's underwear soaked in invisible ink to pass information for Mossad, and in 1997 was sentenced to 15 years jail at hard labor. Both Azzam and the Israeli government denied the charges. [1] [2] Azzam expressed gratitude to the government of Israel, and to Ariel Sharon in particular, telling him "I love you very much and I don't know how to express this. This has happened only thanks to you. I don't have the words to thank you for your determination. I told my brothers that if I wasn't released while Arik Sharon was prime minister, I would never be released. I am fortunate and proud to have been born in Israel."[3]

Theological Rambling

About the believe, the five emanations plus the sixth and his Godly unity the Universal intelligence who is higher than the universal mind and lesser than the almighty God, the Universal intelligence emanates in the holy personality who chosen by the almighty God to host the Godly universal intelligence in turn of the Builder or the Ruler( al Hakim), but don?t mix up and take it wrong about the believe.

Some hint of the Druze faith or (al taw hid) which means in Sanskrit Yuga, and the religious men or women (Ajawid) called in Sanskrit yogis, al tawhid began with the history of Adam ( al safa) or Adam the crystal or in Greek Christo, or the true Christ, or Krishna in Sanskrit and re-announced during the Fatimid khalifa AL Hakim by the Universal mind emanation Hamza Bin Ali.

Druze in Israel

What was said is not actually correct; the Druze in Israel among the older generations do support Syria. However, the younger generations have sworn allegiance to Israel, due to the better life in Israel, especially the lack of persecution; and the Druze notion of being faithful to whatever country they currently live in. [ 68.106.127.101 ] (sig added)

The use of the term "collaborate" is highly POV. Israel has offered the Golan Druze citizenship, the older generation has repudiated it, the younger generation generally accepted it. "Collaborate" implies a great deal more. Jayjg 14:41, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

"Israeli state" is a bizarre usage; the term is "Israel". "Israeli state" uses two longer words to describe what is better said in one word. Jayjg 14:43, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

There are a few thousand Druze in the Golan heights. Most Israeli Druze reside in Israel proper and none of the above applies to them 85.65.48.126 19:20, 31 December 2005 (UTC) [Actually it's user MEW but I can't log in & can't get a new password - Sorry].

Judaism and Christianity are not hierarchical

Judaism is not a "hierarchical" religion; in fact, it has little formal structure, as religious authorities are not centrally controlled, and have only as much authority as individual Jews are willing to grant them (which, more often than not, is none). Protestant Christianity is also often non-hierarchical; most denominations pride themselves on this, in contrast to the Roman Catholic church, which is decidedly and formally hierarchical. In fact, Christianity is so broad and varied saying just about anything about Christianity as a whole is bound to be false. Jayjg 14:46, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)

'Christianity is so broad and varied saying just about anything about Christianity as a whole is bound to be false' - In that case I guess we all better shut up about Christianity because it might offend you... --Xed 01:22, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

This is not about me or my feelings, Xed, it's about the facts. Much of Christianity, particularly Protestant Christianity, eschews hierarchy, precisely because Catholicism has it. It's all part and parcel of the repudiation of the Catholic church that devolves from Martin Luther's original doctrine of Sola Scriptura. As for Judaism, I don't know what "hierarchy" you are referring to in the article, perhaps you can explain here. Jayjg 01:47, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Jayjg is wrong about Christianity; probably the majority of Christians belong to sects (Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, many varieties of Lutheranism, the Anglican communion, and maybe some I've forgotten) that have some sort of hierarchy. However, this dispute is both tiresome and unnecessary—it is sufficient to say that the Druze have little religious hierarchy without dragging in these comparisons. —No-One Jones 02:10, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Oh, undoubtedly the majority of Christians belong to sects which have strong hierarchies; Catholics alone arguably comprise a majority. Them, plus the other groups you mention, plus other groups like Mormons definitely form a majority. Of course, one could quibble about who a real "Christian" is, but that's a debate best avoided like the plague. Regardless, that still leaves several hundred million Christians without any particular hierarchy, a not insignificant number, which is why I preferred Catholic, the largest Christian group with arguably the best known and developed hierarchy. That said, your edit is even better. :-) Jayjg 02:18, 6 Sep 2004 (UTC)

Christianity and Judaism as a whole have no hierarchies that represent all of the membes of their faiths; both Christians and Jews form religious hierarchical religious bodies that represent themselves, but they don't represent other members of their faiths. The Roman Catholic is perhaps the best example of one such body, both for its size and its degree of organization for its size. Lorem Ipsum 20:40 7 Sept. 2005 (UTC)

wrong flag

Monotheism

@Jayig: Not only are the Christians by self-labelling monotheistic, but also (to quote your nemesis):

Most Jews and Muslims see the Trinity as a sincere attempt to be monotheistic. Thus, most Jewish and Muslim critics of the Trinity don't claim that it is the worship of three separate Gods; rather, they say that Chrisitians attempt to worship one god, but at the same time acknowledge three distinct persons within that god. Given Mulim and Jewish definitions of these terms, the resulting Christian worship has the appearance (to Muslims and Jews) of cognitive dissonance. The way that Jewish law deals with this is by saying that such worship is legally considered monotheism, as long as gentiles are doing it; however, this type of worship is forbidden by Jewish law to Jews. (The law itself is an example of cognative dissonance, but the rabbis were well aware of this. They are trying to legally find a way to hold onto their beliefs, without condemning Christianity. For this issue, they were not looking for philosophical clarity.) I am not sure how Muslims or other strict unitarian monotheists formally deal with this issue. User:RK

• From Talk:Monotheism

Do you have specific evidence of the Druzes accusing the Christians for not beeing monotheistic. Otherwise I'm rather tempted to revert your last edit. --Pjacobi 17:34, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

To begin with, my own edit was simply the reversion of an anonymous insertion. Next, RK's views of what "most Jews and Muslims" believe are inaccurate. Finally, what Trinitarians view as monotheism is not viewed by Muslims and Jews as monotheism; rather, Jews view it as "shituf", and Muslims view it as "shirk". Each word essentially means "association", and it is considered a sin for members of both faiths. The article itself says that Druze are monotheists "like Jews and Muslims"; the Trinitarianism of the vast majority of Christians, regardless of whether or not one views it as monotheism (and not even all Christians do), is quite different from the monotheism of Judaism and Islam. Furthermore, as the article points out, the Druze call themselves Ahl al-Tawheed (sons of the Unity). If you look at the Tawheed article you will note immediately that it relates to the Muslim (not Christian) concept of monotheism. Jayjg 18:37, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

Thinking again about this formulation, I can see that the sentence under inspection:

• They are monotheists, like Jews and Muslims.

Can be read in two ways (at least for me, not being a native speaker of english):

• (a) They are monotheists, in the same way as Jews and Muslims.
• (b) They are monotheists. Other prominent monotheists are Jews and Muslims.

IMHO (a) is perfectly valid statement (despite some minor voices who explicitely claim that trinatarism is compatible with Druze beliefs). Only reading (b) has a problem, and all disputes about the possibile POV-ness of (b) should go into Monotheism, not into Druze.

So if anyone can propose a formulation which emphasizes the (a) reading in a stylistally acceptable way, all can agree, right?

Pjacobi 20:10, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

a) is fine with me. Jayjg 20:19, 12 Oct 2004 (UTC)

I agree with the above information should not be compared when you are defining a religion. You should stated facts only. Nizar

One suggestion -- the monotheism of Jews, Muslims, and a few Christians (classical Unitarianism, Oneness Pentecostals, etc.) can be called unitarian monotheism; that of most Christians, trinitarian monotheism. Thus the Druze, like Jews and Muslims, are unitarian monotheists. -- samuel katinsky

Newbie here - I'm confused by the paragraph on beliefs. It says that Druze consider themselves monotheists. Then (as of 2/9/07) the paragraph ends with the statement: "The Druze believe in reincarnation and are pantheistic." Pantheistic? who says? I don't know one way or another, but it contradicts what is said several sentences previously.

Please somebody clean up this inconsistency, it seems pretty fundamental. Either they are monotheistic or they are pantheistic, right? One or the other. - Signed Leila A., February 2007

Where is the contradiction? Pantheism ideas are prevalent in Monotheistic religions.--Doron 20:25, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

Druze Cleanup Details?

There is comment at the top of the page to the effect that this page needs cleanup. Are there any technical details that should be cleaned up, for instance grammatical errors, link errors, formatting errors, etc? Remove the "Druze Flag"? What actually needs to be done to bring this page up to standards?

The Druze flag should be gone. I've never seen it. It's just stripes. And it's not found flying on flag poles. In fact the only place a druze flag is displayed is on the internet and on the back of key rings from the markets.

The Druze flag should not be removed. I have seen it in Lebanon. Please don't express your opinions if they don't have any logical foundation.

The labanese druze are not druze, they are muslims.

No, the lebanese druze are druze, that is why they are called druze. If they were Muslims then they would be known as Muslims and not Druze.

Yes, there is one more thing that I noticed that needs to be cleaned up. Twice there is mention of the meaning of the star's colors, however, each time different terms are used. Even though those terms may in essence mean the same thing, it might be prudent to decipher which of the terms for the colors best represents the meaning and then make them match. As a fluent speaker of Arabic, my choice would be the first set of terms. However, as I am not Druz-ey, I wouldn't want to attempt at describing something so special to them, when it's not my religion. Perhaps an actual Druz-ey should do it themselves. ما هيك؟ مش كدة؟ --LanguageSLO 08:41, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

Identity

The Druze are a religious group. The first paragraph says "Sometimes they do not consider themselves to be Arabs", which as far as I know is true only in Israel. Is there any indication that Druze outside Israel "do not consider themselves to be Arabs"? From what I've read, most Israeli Druze consider themselves to be Arabs, it is the (Jewish) Israelis who mostly consider them as a separate ethnic minority.

"The Australian druze do not consider themselves arabs."<<<?

The Druze ethnic origin is clear and well documented. Their are two tribal divisions among Druze (Kaysi and Yemeni) and both are Arabs. both are converts from Jabal Amel Shia. --Skatewalk 05:37, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

• What about the Kurdish ancestry of for example the Jumblatts? How does that enter the picture? Funkynusayri 06:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

• Hi Nusayri; The Jumblatts are a family amon families that came to be influential. Many Adnani and Yemeni tribes had non Adnani Arab sheikhs in order to eliminate the rivalry between the tribes sects. Just likein Syria today the leader is an Alawite does that make every Syrian an Alwaite?

The Druze ethnicity is well known they fought long bitter wars about it. Ethnicity overlapped religion in manytimes -- Skatewalk 19:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Skatewalk. The Droze are not converts from Jabal Amel Shia. In fact, no one Druze family is originated from that area, but from neighboring areas: Galilee, Wadi al-Taim (between Litani rever and Mount Hermon) and the Mount Lebanon (western range). Many of them come also from Aleppo and the mountains near Idlib in Syria. The Jumblatts themselves come from Aleppo. Many Druze migrated from Northern Syria to parts of Lebanon and Southern Syria (Jabal ad-Duruz) where the Druze are a majority, many families are named after the places they come from. Moreover, many of them were converts from christianity, that's obvious from many shared family names between these two religions, while there's none of that between Druze and Shia. The Druze come from various ethnicities, Arabs, Kurds, Syriacs and God knows what. Many Historians (mostly French) claim they are of European descent, and there are many stories about large numbers of Crusaders who became Druze. Some others say that the Druze of Jabal al-A'ala (near Idlib) are the descendants of Galatians, who used to live in that area and the region to the north.

The issue of ethnic origin is a sensitive one, just as sensitive as their religious origin. Sensitive because of the hostile sentiments some other muslim Arabs have for them. Moreover, since the wave of Pan-Arabism swept the Arab World, all minorities have been considered Arabic, including Christians, who are of Syriac, Assyrian and Chaldean descent, as those ethnicities were considered other old branches of Arabs. Many Druze leaders joined the wave, that led to bitter internal fight in Syria in the forties, between those who wanted autonomy in Jabal ad-Duruz and those who wanted full unity with Syria, the pro-union faction emerged victorious, and since then this issue was avoided. And with the Baath policies and education, even forgotten in Syria. Still though, the Druze have great loyalty to their religion, and they are always ready to help their brothers wherever they are, that's obvious from the great numbers of volunteers whenever there's a war.

The Majority of the Druze do consider themselves Arabs, even the purist of all Arabs (as they don't marry outside their religion), but that doesn't make them so. Only a few families have well-documented origins, while others have unsupported claims of being descendants of famous Arabic tribes. Books that list every family and its line of ancestry are rediculous, they mention Arabic tribes that have no record or mention whatsoever in history. Druze try to stay away from trouble (that's a religious doctrine), and being of a non-Arab origin doesn't help at all. That's why they say they are muslims too, while clearly they are not.

The truth maybe lost in history. It needs extensive research which has never been done, and won't be welcome among the Druze.

Orionist 22:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Orionist are you awre of the Battle of Ain Dara?

If the Druze were not Arabs why will they name themselves Kaysi (Adnani) and Yemeni (They are not from Yemen, but of Syrian Yemeni tribes, which puts them in Jabal Amil or Hauran). The Druze Identity was Arab long before PanArabism even existed. The Syrian branch of Druze (AlAtrash and Hamdan)have obvious Hamdani (Non Ghasani) names that lead directly to (Jabal Amil). The Modern Lebanese branch is mostly Kaysi and Druze is a religion after all so I will not be surprised to find Turks, Kurds, Crusaders among them just like any religious group.

The Same exists among European families that have Arabic last names, you dont consider AlMontasers, Almodavars of modern Spain or Murabito, Attardo and Rigazzi of Sicily still Arabs? (unless it pays off to be an Arab at that time... = )....)

When it comes to identity its what the people feel and want to identify as, so I will leave it as it is. As of now the Syrian Druze are known to be Arabs. The Lebanese Druze are involved in the critical balance of Lebanon so it depends on how Jumblatt feels about the Taif agreement these days! -- Skatewalk 05:39, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Skatewalk, please read my post again. I did not say that Druze are not Arabs at all, I said that they are of different origins, Arabs being a major one. You have to note that only the large and rich families have well-documented line of ancestry, others lose track within 7-8 generations max. The battle of Ain Dara was a part of a long struggle over power, the families fought for control of Mount Lebanon and they were not exactly devided over Kaysi-Yemeni lines, and that explains the role of Jumblatts. I'll continue this argument later today. Orionist 14:02, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

The genetic study brings more mystery, why do Druze have more South Asian genes than other Mid Easterners? Could they have absorbed Hindus or something in the past, which might also explain their belief in reincarnation? Funkynusayri 09:31, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Hi Nusayri, Their are two main groups of South Asians in the Mideast;

1. The Slaves brought by the Ummayids when they first invaded the Sind.
2. The Gypsies (Nawar) also came from India.

So it could be any of them, I am pretty sure many Arabs in certain areas also have heavy SouthIndian bloodlines (Basra are, Gulf in general especialy Bahrian, Gaza coasts, the dancers caste in Asir and Hiraz (who are also Ismailiso religion might have some meanning here) they were eventually forced to change the way they dress and live after the spread of Wahabism.

I am not going to say this applies to all of them, but they could have assimilated to the Yemeni and Kaysi populations of Syria at that time. Thier religious belief in reincarnation is a good indicator.. Arabs ethnic division doesn't translate well into Genetic terms, (what works with the Germans doesnt aply to the Arabs, thats where many European historians fail and end up coming up with race and terms theories that dont apply to the Mideast such as (Arabid, Armeniod, Assyrloid...etc). Many Arabs have Nordic or Negroid DNA mainly to absobing Maternal Slave DNA Siqaliba from Europe and the African slaves, but we will not have a time where some Arab claims there is an Arab race and goes around collecting DNA and measuring other people foreheads to findout where their DNA originated from!. -- Skatewalk 22:13, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Pennant

I never saw a Druse flag/pennant anywhere in Souada, but the Druse star was displayed. It is the Eastern Star of the Shriners/Masons, of all things, as well.

Nancy

Even thought Druze are living in Arab country, their religion, culture and behavior are more Jewish culture than Arab are. It is s a mystery, but nobody knows or do not want to tell about it....It is a secret????

Re Pennant, Jewish culture? The Druze are not similar to the Ashkenazi's in any way except that they are living in the same land.

If you are referring to the Hebrew Jews (Mizrahi and Sephradi). then I can see the similarities since both lived under Islamic religious rule, so they had to maintain a secretive religious life. to avoid getting attention. -- Skatewalk 22:27, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

War Against the French

The Syrian Druse are very proud of their part in ridding Syria of the French occupation. The house of Sultan Pasha al-Atrash is virtually a shrine. Why isn't he mentioned under prominent Druse?

Nancy

• Because you didn't edit the article and put the information in. Why don't you? If you know something the rest of us don't, the onus is on you to make sure the information is included. That's what Wikipedia is all about. David Cannon 01:55, 26 Mar 2005 (UTC)

What a laugh. Why don't we include my great grandfather then who was the first man (druze/tawhid or not) to raise the Syrian Flag on the Government after defeating the french? Most old Druze men played their part and have stories to tell.

Karim

Sorry Karim, but only the leaders get to be mentioned in history. The followers just get to live and die to be remembered by their families only. Tough luck but this is life and you should have learned this from history.

Rami the Camel Lover

During my visit to the French Army Musem in paris ( Musée de l'armée , les Invalides ) , I took photos of two flags of druzes units under the French Army , which also shows a collaboration between the druzes and the French occupier.

• 
  flag of a Druze Unit in the French Army . le paradis est à l'ombre des sabres.
• 
  flag of a Druze Unit in the French Army.Groupe des escadrons Druzes

Tiger

NPOV gushing and phrasing issues

This text:

He was just, close to the people He gave the right to people to choose their religion. In 1009, the Hakim gave away all the jewels and gold he had and lived a simple life. The Hakim tried to unite Sunni and Shitte muslims. He spent generously for the construction of mosques. He also allowed people who converted to Islam for money or fear to return back to their religions and he reconstructed churches.

is difficult to understand. While I accept that it may have been written by somebody for whom english is not the first language, it is important for them to provide information in the english wikipedia in a way that english speakers can understand. Additionally, the entire article, but in particular this paragraph, are needlessly ebullient about "the Hakim". Note that "hakim ..." is given as a name, and then used as a title later on as "the Hakim". It isn't explained what "a Hakim" is, neither here nor in Caliphate. It would be nice if one of our druze friends could clarify this. 69.143.133.51 09:41, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Al-Hakim bi-Amr Allah was the third Fatamid ruler of Egypt. He ruled from 996 till his disappearance in 1021. It is ridicules that the article doesn't even mention Al-Hakim's name since his deification is the central point of Druze doctrine.

All muslim countries treat Druze as Jewish and hate us. I could feel it and convinced that they know that we are not muslim. Druze rituals are close to Jewish culture.

Um... no more closer than to Muslem or Christian "culture".

Golan's Druze voting patterns

According to: Maariv: HaYom special issue:2003 elections-the real result. Date:30.1.2003 Page: 28

The Golan Heights:

Majdal Shams: National Union-49.4% Likud-43.3% Labour-6% Balad-1%

Buq'ata: Likud-48.8% National Union-40.6% Am Ehad-6.9% Shas-2.3% Shinui-1.1%

Mas'ade: National Union-57.1% Likud-20% Labour-17.1% Ale Yarok-2.8% Meretz-2.8%

Population info (Israel’s center bureau of statistics-2001): Buq'ata-5,200 residents (all of them Druze) Majdal Shams- 8,400 residents (98.8% of them Druze, 1.2% Arabs) Mas'ade- 3,100 residents (all of them Druze)

Very surprising, but true indeed! Thanks for providing the info.--Doron 19:52, 9 September 2005 (UTC)

It is not that surprising, but you’re welcome.

Just out of curiosity, why is it not so surprising that Druze from the Golan Heights vote so overwhelmingly to right-wing parties, especially to ultra-right wing National Union?--Doron 23:57, 10 September 2005 (UTC)

It's a complicated set of reasons, really. Druze are arrayed across the whole spectrum in the Israeli-Arab conflict, from strongly pro-Arab to strongly pro-Israeli, mainly borne out of that region's complicated multi-way factions (at various times, Druze militias have fought either with or against Jews, Christians, and Muslims). In the Golan heights, there's an additional self-selection bias in voting results: The pro-Syrian Druze refuse Israeli citizenship and therefore don't vote, while the pro-Israeli Druze are the ones voting. --Delirium 11:12, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

Just to make it more accurate: very few Golan Heights Druze actually vote. Buq'ata: 5,200 residents, in 2003 elections there were 217 eligible voters and only 86 voted. Majdal Shams: 8,400 residents, in 2003 elections there were 256 eligible voters and only 103 voted. Mas'ade: 3,100 residents, in 2003 elections there were 107 eligible voters and only 36 voted. --128.139.226.37 08:45, 29 March 2006 (UTC)

Article Contradicts Itself

This article teaches that the Druze do not fast or pray; then, that the Druze might fast and do pray. Can we get some expert revision to correct this? ~ Reaverdrop 07:46, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

The Druse do not have the obligation of fasting or prayer but they can pray to God in their own way and the uqqal usually recite the Holy book in their gathering.

There is no religious obligation to pray in the Muslim fashion nor to fast in the month of Ramadan, some people do so as a way of being 'super-religious' and others use it as a way of protecting their identity.

I suggest that the "Article Contradticts itself tag should be removed, since nobody can know what it is about, and anyhow it is probably wrong. Perhaps the wording about "do not fast and do not pray" needs correctss 85.65.48.126 19:25, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Individual prayer is different from group events. I think we need to clarify how the druze pray. Sam Spade 14:36, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

the Druze are not Muslim

there should not be a Muslim beliefs tab on the page, I removed it 67.183.93.122 04:36, 12 December 2005 (UTC)

That is strange because I believe that the Druze claim they ARE Muslim. What makes you say they are not? Who decides? 85.65.48.126 19:23, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Druze do not consider themselves Muslim. However, in some countries they claim to be. They are also not Arabs(as are the Jews), but often claim to be(mainly in Syria and Lebanon). Both of these effects are based on a custom Druze adopted from the Shi'a, called Taqiyya, which crudely means one may(and should) claim to be something he's not in order to protect himself. For instance, when dealing with the Alawite in Syria one would "I'm Muslim, and sure the Alawite are", although besides the Alawite "Muslims" themselves no one considers them as such...
Point is, Druze are not Arabic and aren't Muslim, though they claim to be such sometimes because of a religious custom, and plain and simple good sense. conio.h • talk 13:43, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Ok we know Druze are not Muslim, otherwise they wouldnt be Druze. But why do you insist they are not arab? We can go on and say that anyone who is not from the arabian peninsula isnt really arab, but the fact is that anyone who speaks arabic and forms part of the arab culture extending from the persian gulf to the atlantic is arab. Druze religious texts are in arabic, and they all speak arabic - doesn't that make them arab? (23:29, 6 January 2006 Cbet202)

They aren't Arabs for the same reason they're not Muslim - they're just NOT. If you do it your way the Jews are also Arabs(many of them speak Arabic, and as we go further back in time Hebrew becomes more and more similar to Arabic), Jews live in the same area(believe it or not - but Israel is located between Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria - all of them Arabaic countries). Culture is similiar too.

The simple facts are:

• Some Druze claim to be Muslim. Others claim the opposite.
• We accept the fact they aren't Muslim, and base it on a religious custom.
• Some Druze claim to be Arabs, other claim the opposite.
• The same explanation from above fits this case PERFECTLY, but for some mysterious reason you deny it in this case.

Also, don't forget that with your "rules" you could say that the Turks are Arabs (they're mongols in origin), but for decades they use "latin-Arabic", instead of the traditional Arabic script.

Druze are Semites(that's the region you mentioned), not Arabs. conio.h • talk 22:47, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

Arabs are Semites.

—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 154.20.208.181 (talk • contribs) . People are what they say they are. The article should simply say that while they call themselves muslim for convenience at times, they neither consider themselves muslim or arabs. Sam Spade 12:01, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

How do we know they only call themselves Muslim for convenience? They are often quite insistent on the point. Palmiro | Talk 14:41, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

According to the OCRT page that I just added to the references, it was often a matter of safety as well. Naturally enough, they will be insistent on their claims if they think they are important to their safety. A muslim friend of mine confirms that the Druse (there are some in Brazil) are not Muslim, but are somewhat relieved to be mistaken as such. Luis Dantas 14:46, 7 January 2006 (UTC)

There is no definitive test for who is Muslim. A large part of being Muslim is identifying oneself as Muslim. The other large part is how others identify you. Other indicators are belief and custom similarities and the history of religion. It may be that some Druze really believe Druze are Muslim and others believe otherwise. There is no way to know. So it is dubious to just say that someone is not Muslim but says he is. And to say "they're just not" is silly. If the indicators disagree, say so and leave it at that, and maybe cite an authoritative source. Otherwise you are not being neutral. The explanation of why it may be that the indicators disagree (Druze's attempt to protect themselves) is important, but does not make the Druze non-Muslim (or Muslim). An encyclopedia should stay out of the controversy and state what is said about the topic. It is similar for the Arab question. Pgan002 06:28, 10 January 2006 (UTC)

Good enough for me. Let's write something like "Druze in A claim to be Arabs while Druze at B claim not to; Druze at X claim to be Muslim, while Druze at Y claim the opposite.". I know that most of Islamic sects don't recognize the Druze being Muslim, but I'm not sure what's the Arab view(and we'll disregard the obvious "Who's an Arab?" question that pops up) on the subject(wether the Druze are Arabs or not). conio.h • talk 19:04, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, they are recognised as Muslims by al-Azhar and by the Sunni religious authorities in both Syria and Lebanon. That would suggest that mainstream Islamic authorities do consider them Muslim, officially at least. Palmiro | Talk 21:46, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

I haven't heard about it. You think you could provide with a citation or something? I tried to search their site - their internal search doesn't work(Viva la IIS), and google doesn't find anything. a google search on Druze found this. I'm not sure how reliable is this site, but it also says that most Muslims don't consider the Druze to be such... conio.h • talk 13:18, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure I can, but not in the immediate future - I'm not sure that I have any relevant books at my disposal at the moment. Palmiro | Talk 13:27, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

For starters, this article remarks that "A joint Christian-Muslim dialogue group exists in the Lebanon. An interesting feature of this body is that, on the Christian side, it includes representatives of the different Churches, and on the Muslim side representatives of the Sunni, Shi‘a and Druze communities. The Middle East Council of Churches has also been instrumental in setting up a Christian-Muslim dialogue group covering the whole of the Middle East". The French Wikipedia article on the Druze refers to the Azhar recognising them as Muslims, but provides no source. Palmiro | Talk 13:40, 19 January 2006 (UTC)

Whether any given Druze person identifies (or not) as Muslim or Arab depends in part on the political conditions of the country they find themselves in. I've known Druze who deny they are Muslim, yet tell me that when in Saudi Arabia, for example, they say that they are, because to deny it could cause trouble. Druze in Israel deny they are Arab, for what should be obvious reasons. Like ANY label, whether it applies or not is based on political motivations. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 154.20.208.181 (talk • contribs) .

I've a seen a documentary on Al Jazeera last year, the Druze leaders in Lebanon calling themselves as Muslims.. they even taught Muqaddam (Last Chapter of the Koran) to the kids. Furthermore Druze, is not the only Sect within Islam that believe in reincarnation.

For me whosoever says they are muslims (regardless of their beliefs or practices), I'll consider them as Muslims

---

This is ridicuous, "Druze are not Arabs because they're just not"? I suggest you go read the definition of Arab.

Druze are a Muslim sect, just like Christianity is a Jewish sect, so defining it as one might be a bit iffy.

On the other hand, Alawites are as different from Muslims as Druze, yet they're still considered a Muslim sect. Funkynusayri 06:32, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

NPOV: the Seven Noahide Law

From the Section of the article "The Druze today:" "...Sheikh Mowafak Tarif, signed a declaration calling on all non-Jews in Israel to observe the Seven Noahide Laws, as laid down in the Bible..."

The "Seven Noahide Laws" are not explicitly in the Bible. Even the Wikipedia article on the Seven Noahide Laws makes it clear that at best two of these "laws" are taught in Genesis while the others "are exegetically derived from a seemingly superfluous sentence in Genesis 2:16."

Of course, somethign can be taught implicitly in the Bible, or any other document for that matter, but in order to be NPOV the implicit teaching of the text should be fairly clear. In this case it isn't. Further, the way the sentence is phrased it implies the Bible teaches not only seven commands but also the whole set of teachings surrounding a Jewish understanding of the Seven Noahide Laws. I reccommned merely cutting the phrase "...as laid down in the Bible and..." That should clear up any POV problems

Is there a source for this? I changed the indent to quotation marks, though I'm not sure if it's an accurate representation of the quote. Tewfik^Talk 21:47, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

Article appears to be POV and contradictory.

1. POV: At one point a Druze militia is called "atrocious." That is obviously POV. Possibly the writer is not a native English speaker, and confused it for "ferocious," which may well be backed by sources.

2. Contradictory: Towards the beginning, the article claims that Israeli Druze most assuredly do not consider themselves Arabs. However, further on it says that when voting, many Israeli Druze do classify themselves as Arab, if not Palestinian. - KB 23:29, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

What are they?

If they claim to be muslims, why don't they recognize Muhammad as a prophet?

They do recognize Muhammad as a prophet, just not the last great prophet. And most Druze do not claim to be Muslim.

Wrong date for signing of declaration

Mowafak Tarif signed that document in January 2004, not April 2006. Many other sites on the Web have quoted Wikipedia using the wrong date.

http://www.allbusiness.com/periodicals/article/732353-1.html there's alot of gods and their're all good.

Druze Star copyright issue ?

The United States Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) has a list of 98 approved "emblems of belief" for engraving on military headstones. The list can be found here with an illustration for each emblem, except two of the items are listed without illustrations as follows:

97	CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST (Cross & Crown)	Not shown because of copyrights.
98	MUSLIM (Islamic 5 Pointed Star)	Not shown because of copyrights.

I went searching for these out of curiosity and found this blog/picture which suggests that #98 may be the "Muslim" Druze Star and if so cannot be displayed without explicit copyright permission? Can anyone confirm (a) if emblem #98 is in fact the Druze Star and (b) if there is/isn't any copyright issues?

PS: Are there any other names for the Druze Star? (the Jewish Star has three others that I am aware of)

Low Sea 14:25, 2 December 2006 (UTC)

The Druze Star is a very old symbol, maybe as old as the religion itself. I'm not aware of any copyright issue concerning it. If it is really the star mentioned in the list, the Department of Veterans Affairs could be wrong, they don't even know it's the Druze Star!

The Druze call it "the star of the five principles" by the way. Orionist 01:05, 3 December 2006 (UTC)

DRUZE non muslim

i have put a fact tag where it says that "most muslims consider Druze's as non muslim's". can some body clarify that.7day 12:49, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Druze are not muslims 

Druze these days are considerd Muslims for political reasons, but religiously Druze don't have any thing in common with the muslim religion, they are from Nuslim origin but they are not Muslims —The preceding unsigned comment was added by JadZeitouni (talk • contribs) 06:50, 20 January 2007 (UTC).

can you please give reffrences.124.29.204.214 07:07, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

This is obviously a complex and contentious issue. I'd suggest that the article should address it reasonably fully on the basis of reliable sources. We should acknowledge all the relevant points of view, both those expressed by the Druze, those expressed by the relevant civil and religious authorities in Lebanon, Syria and Israel, and those to be found in scholarly studies of the Druze. This will obviously call for a bit of research, though. Palmiro | Talk 16:04, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

small detail about holy books in European libraries

"The sacred books of the Druzes, successfully hidden from the world for eight centuries, have since the middle of the 19th century found their way into European libraries." It is a common but rather ridiculous claim that holy relics simply "find their way" from the religious groups that created and carefully guarded them into the libraries and museums of foreign colonial powers. Would it perhaps be more accurate to say "have since the middle of the 19th century been acquired by European libraries."? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.113.98.191 (talk) 07:39, 24 January 2007 (UTC).

As we don't really know how the libraries got them, and the difficulty of this, I prefer to keep the wording as it is. The books could be smuggled by European voyagers... etc. There might be a hundred ways they got them. Orionist 02:31, 25 January 2007 (UTC)

Druze, christianity, islam

I am married to Druze, and a lot of what Mr doron said, are not right.

The Druze are not a muslims and they do not want to be.

And the story of Samir Kuntar is so silly.. I think there are more important people to talk about such as Syrian Druze Leaders ALHENAWI, ALHAJARI, JARBOU.

We refuse the way that israeli people trying to introduce and promote the druze in this image. User:John sarter (subject heading and signature added by User:Classical Geographer)

Dear Mr. Sarter,

I am no Druze myself and I have only scarse knowledge of religious issues. However, you should be aware that the article on Druze has been in existence for quite some time, and that is has undergone revisions from many different persons, probably including Christians, muslims, and Druze. I do not claim the text as it stands is correct in all respects; however, I do feel we should await the advice of others, as Palmiro advised a few paragraphs above. The outcome of such a discussion can and will then be introduced into the article by one or all of us, including you, if you wish. Classical geographer 09:25, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

Reply to John sarter:

• I did not say anything about the Druze, the article was written and edited by many Wikipedians over the past six years.
• The fact that you are married to a Druze is of no consequence to this discussion, Wikipedia is based on published material and not on personal experience.
• You have removed well-referenced information without providing any justification.
• You have mentioned Christian influence without providing any explanation or source.
• You have removed a reference to the Druze Samir Kuntar without providing any reasonable justification.
• You added reference to Syrian leaders, mentioning only their surnames (apparently) in a way that does not help identifying who they are (however, if you provide more information, e.g., their full names and background, they may certainly be noteworthy).
• In your indiscriminant reverts back to your revision you canceled essential edits by other editors.
• Please leave political disputes out of this discussion, we are not interested in your opinion of Israelis.
• I suggest you familiarize yourself with Wikipedia policy (in particular WP:NOR, WP:CIVIL, WP:EW).--Doron 00:56, 13 February 2007 (UTC)

Azzam Azzam

imprisoned 7 or 8 years, can't be both?

Footnote problem

At the time of writing, footnote 11 simply says:

"موسوعة الأديان والمذاهب المعاصرة (رابطة العالم الإسلامي"

This is not a lot of use for an English-language encyclopedia! Could someone please at least provide a translation (in the article, not just here). Loganberry (Talk) 23:36, 28 May 2007 (UTC)

Already done. Orionist 14:10, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

Pictures

Could someone please add a few more pictures of some Druze people, please? Maybe one or two a bit more recent than the nineteenth century one of the woman in the 'tartur'. Rekk 15:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Check the Hebrew and Arabic Druze pages, there are some newer pictures there. I'm unable to read Arabic and Hebrew, so I can't provide them with a caption though. I added a recent picture of Walid Jumblatt in the prominent figures section. Funkynusayri 15:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Just used the Google translator for the Druze man on the Arabic site, and added it. Funkynusayri 21:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Holy Star

I used to add a new tap for holy druze star but if you wan't to add it to druze i don't mind

New tap? What colour? Funkynusayri 15:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Citizens

Does anyone have a ref for the statement that the Druze have been offered Israli citizenship as stated in the article and above? I might be wrong but I thought that it was reserved for those who could prove Jewish decent.

CaptinJohn 13:38, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Palestinians who stayed in Israel after 1948 all have Israeli citizenship, they have IDs and everything, even members in the Knesset, but not all can join the Israeli army. The Druze, Bedouins and Circassians are required to go to mandatory military service, while the Muslims and Christians are not. Orionist 14:05, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

This paragraph is not clear

"Hamza Ibn Ali completed his directions and procedures to improve the Islamic weakness at that time. This was translated few years later by the refresh of Druze's Islamic beliefs and applying principles in a more powerful manner."

Missing some antecedents here...