Talk:Lev Landau

picture

What happened to the much better picture which used to be in this article? It was replaced by an ugly prison mugshot. The old picture should be returned. --141.154.215.119 07:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Not sure where to find the old pic, but I agree completely, a photo from their labor camp tenure shouldn't be the main portrait of this accomplished scientist. Fulvius 11:54, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I added the new picture, but i'm not sure what I should select for copyright. Bronstein.jpg is the old picture, it should maybe be scaled down and put in the section on his imprisonment. Fulvius 12:37, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Please do not call Russian everybody who was born in the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire! People can consider it as neglecting their true ethnic identity. It may offend people.

The word "Russian" may be misinterpreted by the reader. It is not clear what it means in this context: citizenship or ethmicity. The article contains information that L.D.Landau was born in the Russian Empire. So you do not loos any information removing "Russian" from the first sentence. Please do not revert. --AndriyK 12:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Please sign your posts by typing four tildas like this ~~~~

Please do not confuse ethnicity with relationship to a country. See the definition of Russian, particularly the last entry in the definition. If anyone would follow your logic, there would be no American people at all, because almost everyone there is an emmigrant. As for Landau, he was born in the Russian Empire, spoke Russian, lived in Moscow, died in Moscow, rests in Moscow. Looks like Russian applies to him. --Gene s 12:07, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Everybody knows what means "American". In contrast, "Russian" can be interpreted differently: It can mean "ethnic Russian". It can mean "citizen of Russia (after 1991)" It can mean "citizen of the Russian Empire (before 1917)". To avoid any confusion it should be clear from the context, or explained explicitely, what this word means in every particular case.

If you say: "Landau was Russian" and then you continue: "He was born in the Russian Empire", most of the readers would interpret this as "Landau was ethnic Russian and he was barn in the Russian Empire". So you text would be misunderstood. You should avoid such things in writing for the Wikipedia.

The Landau's relation to Russia is described quite clearly in the article. The word "Russian" in the firs sentence gives no additional information but can cause a confusion.

If you would like to add information about Landau's spoken language etc., you are free to do it. --AndriyK 12:51, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Well, you said Everybody knows what means "American". Please read American and see for yourself that you are wrong.

Yes, Landau relationship with Russia is described quite clearly in the article. So, the description "Russian" is correct. The google test also proves it: Russian 2,430 [1] vs. Soviet 422 [2]. I basically don't understand the nature of your objection. According to the definition at Russian the description of Landau as Russian is correct.

Please keep in mind that if you revert the article one more time, you will be in violation of the WP:3RR.

--Gene s 13:02, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

You even did not try to think about avoiding the confusion and misinforming the reader. OK. I will seek for a comment from the comunity. --AndriyK 13:48, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A brief summary of the discussion

I removed the word "Russian" from the first sentece of the article, because it can be misleading. A part of the readership can understand it in the present context as "ethnic Russian", which is incorrect. Landau was NOT an ethnic Russian.

Gene s insists on using the adjective Russian, because Landau was born in the Russian Empire and was a sitizen of this country during the first 9 years of his life. (The rest of his life he was a sitizen of Soviet Union, which is NOT the same as Russia.)

In my opinion, Landau's relation to Russia is described quite clearly in the article. The word "Russian" in the first sentence gives no additional information but can cause a confusion. From these reasons it should be removed.

General note:

• In would suggest the wikipedia comunity to avoid using adjective "Russian" to all people who were born in the Soviet Union or the Russian Empire, uless they are (or were) ethnic Russians. At least, it should be clear from the context or explained explicitely, what the word "Russian" means: citizenship or ethnicity. Otherwise people can consider it as neglecting their actual ethnic identity and feel themselves offended. This is very much NOT in the spirit of the Wikipedia.

Well, the word "Russian" has been often used instead of "Soviet". But

1. this is incorrect.
2. this is offensive with respect to non-Russian ex-Soviets.

From the above reasons, Wikipedia should avoid this mixing.

I would be gratefull to the comunity for their comments on the issue. --AndriyK 13:48, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I would greately appreciate if you would not twist my words. If you want to make a summary of someone's statement, make it accurate. Don't misrepresent the words. Here is what I am saying:

Landau's relationship with Russia is quite clear from the article. Thus, the description of Landau as "Russian" in addition to other affiliations is correct. The google test also proves it: Russian 2,430 [3] vs. Soviet 422 [4].

Here is a great test for you. I am guessing from your name you are a Ukrainian. There is an article Igor Sikorsky. In the article he is described as Ukrainian. According to your logic he is not a Ukrainian, but rather a Pole or a Russian or an American. Could you please go there and remove the Ukrainian from the article?

As for a wiki-wide policy against the word "Russian" - good luck. --Gene s 14:07, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Dear Gene s, what is your goal? To make the article clear and to avoid misinterpretations, or start a political discussion? I do not support any policy against the word "Russian". I just would like to avoid misunderstanding and inaccurate statements. --AndriyK 14:27, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Yes, my intention is to make articles clear and informative. So far I am sticking with simple facts without starting a political discussion. "Russian" just like "Ukrainian", "Persian", "Chinese" does not necesserily mean ethnicity. It means a relationship with the country. It's a common rule here. --Gene s 15:01, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

But still it CAN mean ethnisity. How should the reader know, what you mean saying "Landau was Russian"? I perfectly understand what you mean. But what about the reader who have known nothing about Landau befor this article and who have not had a discussion with you on this issue? --AndriyK 15:48, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

I didn't read all discussion, because I'm working on another topics now and I have a little time, sorry for that. For the same reason I'll not go into the discussion, I'll just indicate my point of view on this. Notice a little detail: a link Russian in the article points to the country:Russia, not the ethnicity - Russian, so, it's pretty clear, that it does not mean ethnicity. Landau's main contribution is to the science of the USSR and namely: Russian SFSR, because he worked in Moscow scientific institution most of his life. All Soviet institutions of the Russian SFSR changed their names to those of Russia in 1991-1992, so, Landau's scientific heritage belongs to Russia. It is pretty natural for me, when for example about Soviet scientists who worked most part of their lives in the institutions of Ukrainian SSR, being Russian by nationality, is written: Soviet/Ukrainian physicist, Russian by nationality, or with Russian roots, if nationality is not clear. So, if you know for sure, you may add, that Landau is Jewish by nationality and add him to the category Jewish people or something like that. But removing Russian and leaving only Soviet, without any indication of the country, to which his heritage belongs now, I think, is inappropriate. Cmapm 19:22, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

A few objections:

• Not every reader will follow the link, so many of the readers will be wrongly informed about Landau's ethnicity
• Heritage of scientiest in the field of mathematics, physics, biology etc. belong to the whole wold. This knowledge is international.
• The information about Landau's connection to Russia and Russian science is described in the article. Does the word "Russian" in the first sentece contain additional information? Which one?

Do you want to misinforme the readers in the West about Landau's ethnicity? Why? --AndriyK 19:52, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• If you want readers to be informed in a "true way", change Russian to Russia's, but I suppose, that English-speaking people will change it back to Russian, as they change of the USSR to Soviet.
• This is commonly applied to knowledge, but each scientist's works are also physically located in archives, laboratories, institutes etc., and they certainly belong to some country. Besides that, many big scientists leave a scientific school after them and it also resides in the institution, where they worked most part of their lives.
• The first sentence about a scientist commonly point to the main country he/she contributed to and his/her nationality in each encyclopedia.
• Do you think, that I and you (as I understand), readers in the East are misinformed, when in every article about US scientist first is written American, although ethnically he is, say, German or Hungarian? We just read the following couple of words or look for ethnicity item in the article.

Please, don't ask me provoking questions next time. I become involved into the discussion and go away from my main project. Cmapm 23:32, 4 Feb 2005 (UTC)

What is Landau ethnicity? Jewish or Azerbaijani, or both? I read the article. Not clear to me.67.113.3.167 06:26, 16 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Jewish subethnicity of Russian etnicity of Soviet superethnicity. Russia is not a melting pot. --GS 02:58, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Landau loved russian poets... so he belonged to russian culture. He was one of the fathers-founders of Moscow Institute of Physics and Technology, which supplies Russia and the whole world with the best physicists for the last 60 years! Note the institute of Landau's name of theoretical physics, which is located in Russia. The last but not least, Landau's course, (with the slagn name of "Landavshits") is fondly beloved among all generations of PhysTech students. So Landau surely belong to russian culture. ellol 12:29, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

It is a very safe assumption that Landau, like ALL Soviet citizens, had an "internal passport" (внутренный пасспорт) and that passport would have had a field labeled "Nationality" to be understood in the sense of "ethnicity". If he were Jewish then in all likelihood his nationality would be entered there as "Evrei" (Jew.) In the Soviet Union, "Soviet" was a political concept but NOT an ethic concept although it had sort of a "ethnic subtext" as exemplified in the following частушка (chastushka, little bit of popular doggerel with a point to it) which I might have found in Ogonek years ago (could be wrong though): "Μы гордимся что Гагарин / Не еврей, не татарин / Не тунгус, не узбек / А наш СОВЕТСКИЙ человек " Very roughly it goes: We are proud that Gagarin / is not a Jew, is not a Tatar, is not Tungus, is not Uzbek, but is our Soviet countryman" which is actually a poor translation of something that is pretty much untranslatable but the point should be clear. Furthermore, among Soviets, "Russian" and "Jew" are VERY different. In the US, however, "Russian" is a name most often put on those whose native tongue is Russian. I have on MANY occasions asked people if they are Russian and have gotten the answer "Нет, я еврей" (No, I'm a Jew.) Vladimir Voinovich in the forward to one of his books recalls a person asking him how he, a Jew, could consider himself a RUSSIAN writer, to which he responds "I do not consider myself a Russian writer, I am a Russian writer" but his attitude seems to be not very widespread. (And to say "Jewish subethnicity of Russian etnicity" is wrong - one did not grow out of or give birth to the other, they are quite separate.) If Landau is a Jew then I think that the article should so state. To say that he is Soviet is, in a way, a meaningless statement, it only indicates the political structure under which he lived. Hi There 19:02, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

HiThere is correct. I am adding that he was born into a Jewish family. This is consistent with other bios in WP. ←Humus sapiens ^ну? 20:26, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Comment. In English (and many other languages), Russian means either belonging to an ethnicity or to a country or both. Usages of the word in the Russian language itself are different, which is why AndriyK desired to change it. Russian wrt ethnicity is руский (ruskií), while the same word wrt country is российский (rossiískií) and in many other-language articles about him (including Russian), he is indisputably referred to as a Soviet physicist — because he lived in the respective epoch, was not Russian by ethnicity, was born in the part of the Russian Empire which is now Azerbaijan and spent most of his life as a scientist in Ukraine, while his scientific contributions benefited the Soviet Union.

How people are referred to in different languages as to who they were, when and where, is linguistically, culturally and traditionally different (and quite interesting, IMHO :). -Mardus 16:00, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

Copy vio

I believe the biography section is cribbed straight from Landau, the Physicist and the Man (ISBN 0080363830). -- CYD

Which passages exactly and where do they correspond to what you refferred to? -Mardus 16:01, 12 August 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject class rating

This article was automatically assessed because at least one WikiProject had rated the article as start, and the rating on other projects was brought up to start class. BetacommandBot 16:19, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Additions

• DLVO theory