Talk:Super Smash Bros./Archive 13

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Archived

Archived just now.Smashbrosboy (talk) 03:37, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Ah, where did it went? Logan GBA (talk) 14:01, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

nevermind, now I noticed that the archive box is updated automatically. Logan GBA (talk) 14:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I did a reflow of the archive box a few months ago to implement automatic linking to new archives. Coreycubed (talk) 18:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Brawl FAQ

Is the Brawl FAQ going to be deleted tomorrow, or will it stay until a week after, because of all the questions people will be asking after they buy the game? Epass (talk) 12:46, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The FAQ's fallen to the wayside since the game's been released. I imagine it's irrelevant now, but it's not doing any harm. It can go once the article settles down. Coreycubed (talk) 18:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

If it is deleted upon Brawl's release, it still shouldn't be, because it will be of use for Europeans for many months to come. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think it should just be archived like past talk page discussions. Jeff Silvers (talk) 06:58, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Talk page archives as keep in talk page subpages eg. Talk:Super Smash Bros. (series)/Archive 1 which is the same type of place the Brawl FAQ is. The Light6 (talk) 08:59, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

As someone suggested in the second deletion discussion, I think it should be added to the talk page with a show/hide button. Epass (talk) 12:00, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Bring back the Dojo article?

I believe that the Dojo article should be brought to the deletion review - it's especially notable, and if I recall correctly, Sakurai stated that it received, on average, more than one million hits per day, and more than five million per week. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:04, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The Dojo has an article? -Sukecchi (talk) 17:12, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Had one. Was AfDed all the way back in August. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:43, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Questions on Characters...

The list of characters lists "Wolf" from Star Fox and "Toon Link" from Zelda for Brawl. I have seen nothing on the Dojo to that effect. Is it vandalism perhaps? Anyone know the source? -Lagren 198.53.190.240 (talk) 20:43, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The game has been released in Japan and there are screenshots on reliable websites with Wolf and Toon Link in them. Epass (talk) 21:53, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

It's out in America now too. The Dojo is not the only source of info. Satoryu (talk) 23:50, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry. Didn't mean to sound so blunt in my earlier posting... I have a copy of it myself. -Lagren 198.53.190.240 (talk) 08:36, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

EarthBound/Mother

What I was trying to hint to A Link to the Past in my last revert of his edit was that discussion for what he was trying to do really needed to be brought here first, as it's something going against previous consensus decided on for this page. Therefore... let the discussion begin. Should the fact that the only American Mother game had a name change in its release affect what we have listed as Ness and Lucas' series of source? Arrowned (talk) 12:59, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Simply no. The Light6 (talk) 14:23, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Simply yes. The naming conventions on Wikipedia is to use the English names when they exist. One exists here, so we should use it. FightingStreet (talk) 14:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

But Lucas isn't from an Earthbound game. Brawl specifically states Mother 3. It should remain this way. -Sukecchi (talk) 15:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Mother 3 is part of the EarthBound series, and it doesn't matter that Mother 3 was never released in English. The articles for Mega Man (series), Castlevania, Mana (series) are all named after their English names instead of Rockman, Akumajo Dracula, and Seiken Densetsu, even though several games in these series were never released in English. FightingStreet (talk) 15:47, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

"The naming conventions on Wikipedia is to use the English names when they exist. One exists here, so we should use it." But that is the name of one game not a series, is there any evidence to say the other games in released in English would be called EarthBound? Also since Dojo a reliable and verifible source has called one of the games on the English site the Mother 3 which fits the Japanese names and if the proper English name for the series was EarthBound then surely the name of the game would have been changed on Dojo to fit that but it hasn't. The Light6 (talk) 16:17, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

EarthBound is the most - and ONLY name that would be known to English readers. There's no expectation that a large number of people will be aware what Mother means. Even if you proved that the Smash community knows it as Mother, that does not reflect what those outside of it knew. The only reason people want it to be called Mother is because in Japan, it's known as Mother.

And if you want to talk about Smash, tell me - what would it mean if New Pork City was labeled as being an EarthBound stage in the stage select screen? Because you said that the Dojo is a reliable source, then that means that Brawl itself is an even more reliable source. That means that it trumps your example, and you must acknowledge its legitimacy. - A Link to the Past (talk) 17:19, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to have to side with "Mother" on this one. There is no definitive proof that "Earthbound" means any more than Mother 2 (despite the hack of Mother 1 calling it EarthBound Zero, as it was made available after the fact). Just because "Earthbound" is the most recognizable name of *one* game does not mean that it is the name of the whole series, especially given as there are *no official* Earthbound games in English-speaking areas other than the SNES game. On the other hand, "Mother" is in the (original) titles of all three games. It's like saying that Charlotte's official name is Carlie. -Jéské ^{(v^_^v Detarder)} 18:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

There IS proof that EarthBound means more than the SNES EarthBound game. A sequel on the Nintendo 64 was planned to be released as EarthBound 64 in North America / Mother 3 in Japan, before it was cancelled. There are thus two titles in the series that are named EarthBound (the fact that the second was cancelled doesn't matter), therefore the series can and should be referred to as the EarthBound series on Wikipedia. The fact that some games in the series were not released outside of Japan doesn't matter either as the Mega Man, Castlevania and Mana articles show. FightingStreet (talk) 18:37, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You're wrong, there aren't two games in the series called EarthBound because you said it yourself, it was cancelled. They didn't start using Mother in the U.S. until Smash Bros, such as on Lucas' stage. Just like how Square changed Aeris name back to Aerith during the first Kingdom Hearts, this proves that if they were planning on remaking them, they'd go under their original titles. Plus, the series article is called "Mother (series)", not "EarthBound (series)", though the latter is redirected to it. --Ryu-chan (Talk | Contributions) 18:45, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

1. Good point - despite the fact that the title of that article is as disputed as this, it's perfectly good evidence. Sure, it may ignore every naming convention ever made, but who cares about that, huh?
2. EarthBound 64 is 100% proof that Nintendo was using EarthBound as the series name.
3. EarthBound Zero is a well-known name for Mother, despite it being a fan name, thusly making people identify EarthBound as a series. Oh, and Mother IS an official game in English. The fact that people commonly refer to it as EarthBound Zero does nothing but strengthen the idea of EarthBound being the series name.
4. And, why didn't anyone respond to my argument that Smash Bros. uses EarthBound to describe the series? They didn't seem to oppose using a Dojo translation to support Mother, why not an entire video game? And I'm terribly confused, what? SSBB uses Mother in Lucas' stage? The only usage of Mother in the English SSBB is in reference to Mother and Mother 3, not Mother as a series.
5. What evidence supports the naming of the series as Mother in English? There has never been a time when NoA has suggested that the series will be renamed as Mother here.

So you suggest that instead of the more common official English name - EarthBound - we should use the less common Japanese name? This debate is as laughable as the Mana (series) debate. Naming conventions says to use the most common English name for the series. EarthBound is so effing common for the series it's not even funny. Have you bothered to consider that so many people refer to Mother 3 as "EarthBound 2"? Hell, over at IGN, they give it the alternate name of "EarthBound 3" (them considering Mother as EB and Mother 2 as EB2). And on top of that, they say that the series is known as "EarthBound" in the west. GameSpot says Mother 3 is in the EarthBound series. EGM had an article titled "EarthBound series dead" (in reference to Itoi not planning a Mother 4). GameSpy calls it the EarthBound series. So, am I to understand that pretty much every one of the biggest gaming web sites and magazines are all wrong in calling it the EarthBound series? Oh, and remember - your argument cannot have a POV. It has to explain why everyone else is wrong and you are right. Explain why EarthBound is not the best name for the series in terms of ENGLISH SPEAKING AUDIENCES. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:32, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Also, I noticed someone said that it cannot be called EarthBound because Lucas is from "Mother 3, not EarthBound". If we went on that logic, any series that featured any character exclusively in a game not released in English, we must use the Japanese name - for instance, if there was a character called Pocket Man in a Rock Man game, can we not call it Mega Man anymore, because Mega Man does not apply to all characters in the series? - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

And to add a third point, SSBB says "EarthBound (Mother)" as the series, clearly indicating that it treats it as a lesser name in English context, and that EarthBound is a legitimate name for the series. - A Link to the Past (talk) 19:57, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

You say Brawl calls the series Earthbound, but I believe there was a trophy calling it the "Mother series". It calls it Earthbound too, though. So going by Brawl (unless I'm totally off on that, but I don't believe I am), Mother and Earthbound are equally viable.

Second, Earthbound Zero really doesn't count for the official series name being Earthbound. It's nothing more than a fan name. The official English name of the first game is Mother and the official English name of the third game is Mother 3. And it can't just be said that "the games are Japan-only so they just use the Japanese names" because some of the Japan-only FE games got new English names too (from some of the stickers).

And if it counts for anything, there were discussions about this both on the Mother series page and earlier on this very page (it's now archived, though). Both groups agreed on calling it Mother. I would say that the series should be labeled as Mother/Earthbound, or maybe Earthbound/Mother. But just saying Earthbound doesn't seem correct (and you'd object to just calling it Mother).

And Earthbound 64 is only proof that Nintendo was using it as the series name, but that doesn't necessarily hold now.Sir Ilpalazzo (talk) 21:02, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm looking through the trophies, and I have every single EB/Mother trophy. Not a single one call it the Mother series - the only mention of Mother is in the individual games with the name Mother in it and the acknowledgment of Mother as an alternate name for the series.

But yes, they are both equally viable. I'm glad you agree. Which means that we default to the English name.

It doesn't matter. You cannot dismiss something as fan-made and decide its necessarily non-notable because of it. Looking at IGN's Mother page, they list EB0 as an alternate name to Mother because that's what it is - an alternate name. Not an official, but official and well-known are not the same thing. The English rom leak, the highly publicized one, changed Mother to EarthBound 0, and that's what people saw who played it.

But it is correct. To the English-speaking world, it is called EarthBound, not Mother. Mother may be well-known in the EB cult-base, but not in random people curious about the series, which they would refer to as EarthBound by the fact that they're exposed to that name significantly more often than they are for Mother.

It establishes that that was what the series was going to be called once the next game came out, and Smash using it predominantly establishes that it's what they use now. - A Link to the Past (talk) 21:26, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

what you said was a good point. why don't we put "EarthBound (Mother)". because, as stated before, that's what Brawl uses. Ryu-chan

That's a surprisingly good idea. I was initially opposed by the fact that we should not use it in most naming conventions, in this case, the category for EB/Mother content is labeled under EarthBound (Mother) in North American versions of SSBB. I fully endorse this. - A Link to the Past (talk) 01:57, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

In fact, another thing I have a problem with Mother supporters is that in their ideal version, they wipe any reference to EarthBound, making it terribly confusing to the majority of the English-speaking world (it's already pretty confusing considering its cult status, but using a name that wouldn't be known outside of the fanbase is just silly).

And make note that me supporting inclusion of the Mother name does not become me supporting inclusion of the Mother name in its article. I support its usage because the series is referred to as such in SSBB, but that is just the name given to alleviate confusion, not as an official series title, but rather two given names to the series. - A Link to the Past (talk) 02:02, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I have no real problem with the series on the character table being listed as "EarthBound (Mother)" but about the name of the series article which isn't really the focus here I think should stay as Mother. The Light6 (talk) 06:58, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

That should honestly be discussed there, not here. Arrowned (talk) 07:35, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

In the trophy gallery in the game the category is EarthBound (Mother), so that should be what it is called in the article. If Mother is the Japanese name, that would be great if this was the Japanese article, but this is the English game, and it even says in the game EarthBound (Mother). Epass (talk) 21:21, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Tabuu

Under Tabuu it says he controls both Master Hand and Crazy Hand, yet I'm fairly sure Crazy Hand never showed up in the Subspace Emissary. Can anyone offer an explanation for this? 76.230.233.120 (talk) 20:27, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Speculation. - A Link to the Past (talk) 20:52, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

A response of more than one word would be appreciated. 76.230.233.120 (talk) 02:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

It's original research. Which means it should be removed. Satoryu (talk) 02:50, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Or, in short, speculation. - A Link to the Past (talk) 03:32, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

In case you need to know more details (which is probably what you were asking to begin with), read WP:NOR. Arrowned (talk) 03:59, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Ummm, I'm pretty sure it's not considered speculation? I mean if Master Hand is being controlled, what's to say Crazy Hand isint? Onepiece226 (talk) 18:07, 15 March 2008 (UTC)Onepiece226

That's speculation. To suggest something without proper evidence is speculation. Saying that Crazy Hand is being controlled just because Master Hand is...that's speculation. -Sukecchi (talk) 18:16, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

It's not stated clearly in the game so I think it's speculation. FightingStreet (talk) 21:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

in the part about Tabuu it says

somthing along the lines of "Super Smash Bros. Brawl's adventure mode, The Subspace Emissary, also features boss characters. Some of these characters, such as Petey Piranha and Rayquaza, are characters borrowed from other franchises." I don't exactly see what this has to do with tabuu, plus it is intently obvious from the rest of the article. So if the aren't any objectors I'm going to take it out.