Talk:System of a Down

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Serj: Surreptitious Rhythm Guitarist?

Serj is credited with "Rhythm Guitar" on the band members section, yet I have yet to see any crediting on any of the actual albums to Serj on rhythm guitar. If he actually did, it needs substantiation or citation. ~~

Soil is not an associated act!!

Soil was a band for like 2 months. not to mention theyre not even active anymore, so theyre not associated Dissectional 01:05, 31 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, Soil was a band for three years. You'd know that if you actually read the article. And I figured Soil would be an associated act being three of four SOAD members were a part of it. If being active is a problem, Serart probably shouldn't be on there either being Serj hasn't really done anything with it since 2003. FallenWings47 11:55, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya, but soil officially broke up, and serart is a side project, and serj and shavo are probably going back to it once their own records are out. Dissectional 18:23, 1 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm just saying. Do you have any references to Serj and Shavo doing that? FallenWings47 15:31, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Well it says that in the serart article. also, soil never released anything. if you still think it should be added, then i have a source of daron talking about his first band, snowblind, when he was 15. that would have every right to be on the article then too, but i feel that the associated acts should either be active, or at least have released something. Dissectional 00:13, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Alright then. Hey, maybe you should add anything you have about that band to Daron's page. Just a thought. Do you have anything on any other bands? Maybe the bands Serj and Daron were in before Soil? FallenWings47 21:11, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I found out about his band snowblind in an interview i found on his high schools web site, glendale high. it doesnt really give any info on the band, so i wouldnt really be able to add anything to the page. Dissectional 02:33, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

Well do you know anything about any other pre-Soil bands? FallenWings47 11:48, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

From rumours I hear that Soil songs were long lasting songs that were up to 10 minutes or so in length... 216.8.144.254 00:42, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

That's awesome! I wish I could get my hands on some!.. FallenWings47 19:17, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

I say its wasnt an associated act becuz soil is sytem of a down, they just changed the name.

Daron thought of the name system, not serj!!!!!!

http://www.hardradio.com/shockwaves/system1.html in this interview daron states.................. I'm sure many of you are probably wondering, what is the meaning, or concept, behind "System Of A Down"? Daron explains, "I thought of the name from a poem that I had written. It was originally called 'Victims Of The Down,' but Shavo didn't really like the word 'victims' in the title, so I thought up 'System Of A Down' and it just clicked...Plus, now our album will be under the 'S' section, next to Slayer!" and you can see that shavo was the one who didnt like the word victims, not serj. also, im not sure if it is a typo or not, but they put victims of THE down, instead of victims of A down. Dissectional 21:03, 2 August 2007 (UTC)

If you get the "Maximum System of a Down" CD, I'm pretty sure it says it was Serj who came up with Systen. FallenWings47 15:29, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Maximum system of a down is an unauthorized biography, and the accuracy of it is unknown. this is an actuall interview with the band. i think its more reliable. Dissectional 04:17, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Well I suppose that's true. I guess I'll take your word for it. FallenWings47 21:12, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

So it's official, the name means nothing and makes absolutely no sense24.4.56.146 (talk) 08:06, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Oriental Metal

i know it has been proposed before, and no one thought anything of it, but reading the article, they have some similarities. They have used middle eastern intruments such as ouds and sitars, and have worked with middle eastern artists such as arto. i think they have more similarities with this genre than they do woth nu metal. Dissectional 05:19, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

SoaD have Armenian folk influences but "oriental" influences are rarely introduced in their music. These influences are mentioned in the Style and influences section.

I think oriental metal is a dubious genre. The oriental metal article does not cite its references and was nominated for deletion once. The bands in the article are far more extreme than SoaD all being death or black metal bands. I don't see similarities with oriental metal. I however see a lot of similarities with nu-metal (explained in the Progressive_Metal section). Eman ^(Talk) 15:53, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

to the second person who posted. if you read the article, you would see that when they say oriental, they mean middle eastern, which soad has a lot of influence from, and have used middle instruments ans worked with middle eastern artists. i think you are thnking oriental as in asian or chinese, which is not what the genre is. Dissectional 19:38, 5 August 2007 (UTC)

No, I know exactly what the oriental metal article is about, and SoaD don't fit the genre (listen to the bands listed in the article, and you'll probably notice the difference with SoaD). Eman ^(Talk) 07:52, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Nu Metal.....

For everyone who still thinks Nu Metal should be left, I think you should watch this. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W7vPcGRTVuA Korn, who basically invented the genre, are talking about how Nu Metal is basically Metal mixed with Hip Hop. System of a Down have NO Hip Hop influence AT All. Also, and I dont mean to offend anyone, but when I think of Nu Metal, and I know a lot of people will both agree and disagree with me on this, I think of the "white trash" or "trailer trash" persona. A prime example is Limp Bizkit's lead singer. Whenever you search Nu Metal on google or youtube, you get something to do with Rap Metal, and for that reason, I dont think Nu Metal should be left in the info box. i also think that Alternative Metal is the genre that best describes their music, and when most people think of Alternative Metal, they think of Nu Metal without the Hip Hop factor. I know some of you are going to say that Nu Metal doesn't have to involve Hip Hop or Rapping, but the fact is that pop culture will always think of Nu Metal as Rap Metal, and I think these articles are made to cater to the average person. Dissectional 05:57, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Enough sources state SoaD is nu metal:

• "System of a Down Biography". Rockdetector. 2007-02-15. Retrieved 2007-04-27. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Will Hodgkinson (2003-02-21). "Songs in the key of C". Guardian Unlimited. Retrieved 2007-05-06. Chisholm moves on to some of the nu metal she listens to at the gym, including System of a Down and Linkin Park. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Maria Armoudian (2003-02-06). "Rock's axis of activism". Salon.com. Retrieved 2007-05-06. Serj Tankian, lead singer of the multiplatinum-selling nu metal band System of a Down... {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• "American Recordings/Columbia Records Release Special Limited Edition of System of a Down's #1 Album 'Toxicity'". PR Newswire. 2002-04-23. Retrieved 2007-05-06. Toxicity... was named Album Of The Year 2001 by Spin magazine who raved Toxicity is the most ambitious record yet to emerge from the nu metal scene. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)
• Adrien Begrand (2002-07-25). "Various Artists: The Pledge of Allegiance Tour". PopMatters. Retrieved 2007-05-06. ...combining aggro punk with old school metal and the off-kilter sounds of Frank Zappa... I'm not someone who's completely unfamiliar with nu-metal. When it's done well, it's extremely powerful, but few know how to pull it off properly... especially System of a Down's two albums. {{cite web}}: Check date values in: |date= (help)

and like ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE said earlier, SoaD has a lot in common with Nu metal:

• Generally speaking, the emphasis in the music is on either communicating feelings of angst and hostility, or motivating a crowd to move with the beat. --- Yes, SoaD does not have teen angst, but it definitely does have emphasis on motivating the crowd to move with the beat. I must say, both in the music and lyrics. On "BYOB," the chorus is extremely pop-like (from an alternative rock POV) and says "Everybody's going to the party have a real good time, Dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine" which is an incitation to dance and "move with the beat". On "Lost in Hollywood", one part says "All you bitches put your hands in the air" which is another incitation to "moving with the beat" and is sounds like something a rapper would say (that's my opinion).
• Nu metal guitarists generally make liberal use of palm muting. --- SoaD uses a lot of palm muting. First examples that pop up to my mind are "BYOB", "Radio/Video", and "Old School Hollywood".
• Another common technique with nu metal guitarists is the use of de-tuned strings whose lower pitch creates a thicker, more resonant sound. --- A technique that SoaD uses. "BYOB" is in Dropped C (I believe), but anyone with the slightest guitar knowledge would notice that SoaD are tuned down.
• This is typical of nu metal bands in that guitar solos are rare in nu metal songs in general, and when they do appear they are often short. --- SoaD have very few guitar solos, and if they do they are extremely short or do not emphasize on technicality (which, in general, is what most metal bands do in a guitar solo).
• Nu metal bands often feature aggressive vocals that range from melodic singing akin to pop and rock, guttural screaming and shouting from various forms of metal, hardcore punk, and rapping. --- SoaD uses (most of the time) melodic singing and shouting, and in some occasions uses some rap-like vocals (most notably in their "Chop Suey" intro and verses). Although it is not, properly speaking, rap, the link must be considered. I would still like to remind you that rapping does not necessarily make you a nu metal band, and that being a nu metal band does not necessarily means you rap. There are nu metal bands who don't rap, and they are still nu metal.
• Normally, nu metal songs have a song structure of instrumental introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge, sometimes another verse but almost always ending with a chorus. --- This is characteristic of SoaD. Most of their songs (I'm not saying all of them) have a very simple "verse-chorus-verse" structure (as well as the slight variants).
• It is generally louder in the instrumental parts and the choruses than in the verses. --- Listen to "Attack" on their last album.
• Another thing I'd like to mention is that Serj Tankian worked with Limp Bizkit (a well known nu metal band), Saul Williams (a hip-hop artist), M.I.A. (a rapper), and The Notorious B.I.G. (another rapper & hip-hop artist). The link to hip-hop and rapping with System of a Down's lead singer is therefore established. I don't have the material that Tankian produced with those artists, but seeing how those artists are predominantly hip-hop and nu metal (in Link Bizkit's case), it is probable that the material is similar to hip-hop and nu metal in style. the 'introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge' is used by every genre of music: rock, country, punk, so that doesnt make them nu metal either

SoaD is nu metal. Cheers Emmaneul ^(Talk) 08:10, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

I feel that the only reason they were labeled as Nu Metal is because all of the hard/metal music that was popping up around that time was following Korn and adding the Hip Hop element. Because they happened to play music that was more hard or agressive than a rock band, they were considered Nu Metal. As for the things that ZOUAVMAN LE ZOUAVE said, I can easily say how they are wrong. When he gives the reference about BYOB, and how that line "everybody's going to the party have a real good time, dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine." That line is metaphorical. BYOB stands for bring your own bombs, going to the party is metaphorical for going to war, blowing up the sunshine in the desert is like dropping bombs in Iraq. So those lines dont have anything to do woth the crowd moving to the beat. The detuned guitar doesnt make nu metal either. metallica did their st anger album in drop c. and almost every hard rock/metal band today uses drop d or lower. the 'introduction, verse, chorus, verse, chorus, bridge' is used by every genre of music: rock, country, punk, so that doesnt make them nu metal. as for the working with the rap artists, MIA just remixed one of his songs, serj was writing poetry with saul williams, and i dont think he even did anything with B.I.G. as you can see, all of the things he said are either irrevelant, or fit with other genres as well.Dissectional 18:46, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

But then, there are still tons of professional reviewers who call it nu metal, I (and all editors should) take their opinions into account, not our opinions. If you can find reliable sources where is mentioned that it's a total mistake to call SoaD a nu-metal band, then maybe we could incorporate that information into the article. For now I trust the professional reviewers.

PS Not all nu-metal is closely related to hip hop (f.e. Slipknot (band), Coal Chamber, Disturbed (band)) Emmaneul ^(Talk) 22:25, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/collective/A7191975 is one i mentioned in another genre debate on this page. ill look for more later. i think proffesional reviewers label them as nu metal because their music doenst fit in with modern metal bands, such as dragonforce, meshuggah, isis or nile (all of which i am fans of), but it doesnt fit in with modern rock bands either. since their music is tough to classify, they figure they should put them as nu metal. i am a metal fan, and i listen to what most people call true metal. those bands i listed are just a few of my favourites. so im not just some kid who listens to korn and limp bizkit and think "itz the heaviest shit out thur" lol. in my opinion, even though SoaD doesnt fit in with those other bands i listed, i find more similarities with them than i do comparing them to korn, limp bizkit or slipknot. Dissectional 00:17, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Amber Cowan writes about Hyponotize which is more prog then every pre-Mezmerize release. The infobox covers that by stating SoaD is not purely nu metal, they are alternative metal, experimental, and nu metal. There are enough reasons to have nu metal in the infobox: The popularity of SoaD during the nu metal era, the alteration of clean melodic/harsh vocals, the low tuned guitars, the mainstream popularity, the lack of solos, the tons of professional reviews mentioning nu metal, their catchy yet metal style. They are no less nu metal than Slipknot (band), Coal Chamber, Disturbed (band) etc. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 00:51, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Nu Metal Survey

This is to see if nu metal should be kept in the info box or not. simply respond with Keep if you think it should be kept as a genre or Remove if you think it should be removed. We'll let this go on for a week and tally the results. Dissectional 06:39, 13 August 2007 (UTC) (Reason given for removing: unsuitable poll)

REMOVE Dissectional 06:38, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a democracy. Polling is not a substitute for discussion. Zouavman Le Zouave 06:51, 13 August 2007 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Straw_polls Poling is suitable for finding a consensus in some occasions, and this is one of them.74.124.33.181 00:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

It is unsuitable because it is a topic that requires discussion, instead of !votes. That is why the comment has been struck out with a reason provided in brackets.

Seraphim ^Whipp 00:24, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

i think there has been enough discussion on this page already. 74.124.33.181 03:14, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

Then a straw poll will achieve nothing. Seraphim ^Whipp 08:25, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

The discussion has been from both sides of the debate, and i fell there has been more said to remove nu metal. this poll will reinforce the answer. 74.124.33.181 19:19, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I am very doubtful anyone will participate. I for one, will not. I do not like the genre label of nu-metal, but I will not protest it further because thoughtful, well-structured arguments, backed up by evidence, have been brought forward to support that label.

Seraphim ^Whipp 09:55, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Myself along with other users have given our opinons as well, and i think we have proven the people proposing nu metal wrong. Just look at the really long repsonse by User: Revan ltrl. He may be a little rude, but his answers are correct. 74.124.33.181 18:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC) Hers is his reponse:

I read the similarities that guy did between nu-metal and SOAD. First of all, I laughed out loud while reading them, your point being as shallow as glass, ignorant and plain stupid. What the hell are you trying to do, you little wiki-nerd. I HAVE AN IDEA! Why don't we compare another band to the nerd's genre-definitions. Like... TOOL! Yea, let's turn Tool into a nu-metal band! Hm.. 'motivating a crowd to move with the beat'. Check. On the song 'Vicarious' singer Maynard James Keenan repeatedly sings with a raised fist (lyrics being generally angsty and somewhat hostile) 'why can't we just admit it, why can't we just admit it' with a very, very catchy 5/4 guitar/bass/drum-pattern in the background. I sure get motivated to move with the beat. Nu-metal!

Hm.. Guitarists making use of liberal palm muting. Man, If you tried to make yourself look like a fool, you succeeded. ALL OF METAL USE PALM MUTING!! Then, according to you, all metal bands in the world should be called nu-metal! Has it ever occured to you that maybe, uh, a band called, like, BLACK SABBATH influenced some metal bands in the world with that technique? You might as well say, like, 'Nu-metal makes use of distortioned guitars, whereas SOAD is a nu-metal band'. And Tool too, making more than just a liberal use of it. Check!

Hm.. First of all, B.Y.O.B. is dropped C#, a tuning which Tony Iommi used on 1972's genre-defining masterpiece 'Sabbath Bloody Sabbath'. Tool also have dropped guitars. And probably EVERY FUCKING METAL BAND IN THE WORLD! Not every, but you get my point. Once again making a fool out of yourself. Check! Hm.. Yea, solos. Tool guitarist Adam Jones does even fewer solos than Daron Malakian, which basically (according to you) makes Adam more nu-metal than Daron. You claim that the solos that are there don't emphasize on technicality and that most metal bands do that in general. Once again, making yourself look like a fool. I suspect your metal-knowledge doesn't reach any further than Iron Maiden's 'Belly of the Beast' or Sabbath's 'Paranoid'. Have you even hard Daron's solo on 'Lonely Day'? That's a hell of a technichal performance, if you ask me. Much more technically difficult than Adam's solo on 'Jambi'. Hell, it's going real good for Tool here! Check!

Hm.. 'Nu metal bands often feature aggressive vocals that range from melodic singing akin to pop and rock, guttural screaming and shouting from various forms of metal, hardcore punk, and rapping'. You say that the link between the VERBAL DECORATIONS on 'Chop Suey' should be considered. I'm turning you into a retard, sorry, but when one relies that much on a stupid article and with, obviously, no knowledge at all, it's hard to avoid. Tool will have no problem with this one. The 'rapping' and guttural screaming on 'Ticks & Leeches' is, like, nu-metal. Not to mention the contrasts between soft vocals and pure screaming on 'The Grudge'. Not to mention the 'rapping' on 'Rosetta Stoned'!! Geez, this covers a hell of alot bands. Nine Inch Nails! Nu-metal?? Nu-metal! Hm.. Yea, the song structure thing. The only 'nu-metal characteristic' (lol) that Tool ain't THAT big part of.. But we can't forget the verses on 'The Pot' and the many different verses and choruses on 'The Patient', 'Parabola', 'Ticks & Leeches' and the title song 'Lateralus' from 'Lateralus. In case you didn't know, man, verses and choruses existed a hundred years ago and your point weighs as much as helium. Geez, it's barely worth commenting.

Hm.. 'It is generally louder in the instrumental parts and the choruses than in the verses'. FOR FUCK'S SAKE! IS THIS ALL YOU GOT?! Oh man.. what a big genius you are, it's louder in the chorus than in the verse... Yea, wikipedia deals with absolutes, didn't you know? Hmm.. so to prove Tool also does this. Listen to the title song on 'Lateralus', you'll hear that the chorus is louder than the verse.

Hm.. Yea, Serj Tankian's work with other artists, nu-metal artists and hip hop artists. THIS SHOULDN'T EVEN BE CONSIDERED. WHAT A BAND MEMBER DOES OUTSIDE THE BAND DOESN'T MATTER! Did you know that Serj also've worked with Tool? In your case, that's a CLEAR proof to add 'progressice metal' to SOAD's infobox. Saul Williams did guest vocals on Nine Inch Nail's latest album, let's call Trent Reznor a hip hopper!

'Now with all these similarities between System of a Down and the nu metal sound and scene, I think that it is more than legitimate that nu metal remains in the infobox while progressive metal departs it'. Well, I object. I object as hell! These so called 'similarities' are as cheap as Bush is intelligent. If you all are okay with this, I'll go right away and add 'nu-metal' on Tool's infobox. Because what the fool did was stupid as hell, pure incompetence, relying on a stupid, shallow article. What we all know is that SOAD is an organic band with organic sounds. Their sounds and atmospheres don't recall the studio over-production that flourish Nu-metal, SOAD's atmosphere recall politics and action, in the name of themes, and influences from armeninan, greek and world music, pure creative freedom, in the name of music. As far as Mezmerize/Hypnotize go, they're a hell lot of more prog metal, than their previous albums are nu-metal, which they are not.Revan ltrl 23:43, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Is it really necessary to copy what User:Revan ltrl wrote once again? I've read it through twice already, and I've already commented on how uncivil this user is, and how threatening to harm another article sounds like something that would violate WP:POINT. I would consider removing the copy of the message; we don't really need to have two copies of it on the same page (especially considering it's quite a lengthy message). Zouavman Le Zouave 18:58, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry 74.124.33.181 but I have seen no proof yet. Maybe I've missed it, I was on holiday. Please, could you show me the proof? We (editors) just cite sources, many sources state SoaD are nu-metal and many nu-metal traits can be attributed to SoaD. That's enough proof for me; nu-metal can be kept in the infobox. We should not add our personal interpretations of SoaD's music to this page (that would be original research), we should look at the opinions of professional reviewers on reliable sites. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 19:26, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

The proof that SoaD is not nu metal is in what Revan ltrl said. the reasons you are giving to keep nu metal are true for so many different genres. 74.124.33.181 20:00, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Revan ltrl didn't prove SoaD isn't nu-metal. He did prove (if you can call a bunch of unverifiable statements 'proof') however that traits common in nu-metal can be found outside nu-metal (downtuned guitars etc.), SoaD is more than nu-metal alone (as we all acknowledge (see infobox)) and that his definition of nu-metal is very narrow.

Like I said before, SoaD is nu-metal because: "the popularity of SoaD during the nu-metal era, the alteration of clean melodic/harsh vocals, the low tuned guitars, the mainstream popularity, the lack of solos, the tons of professional reviews mentioning nu metal, their catchy yet metal style."

All people here opposed to nu-metal in the infobox seem to think we regard SoaD as 100% nu-metal. We don't. Just like Led Zeppelin isn't 100% folk-rock and Frank Zappa isn't 100% classical. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

SoaD isnt 100% progressive metal either, why shouldn't that be in the infobox. also, a lot of soad's lyrics are abstract, so should we add art rock. 74.124.33.181 21:22, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Because we have to make a choice. Mine is Alternative metal based on their apparent heavy metal/alternative rock aesthetics, experimental rock because of their experimental nature (fusing folk music genres and heavy metal, the progressive aspects) and nu-metal ("the popularity of SoaD during the nu-metal era, the alteration of clean melodic/harsh vocals, the low tuned guitars, the mainstream popularity, the lack of solos, the tons of professional reviews mentioning nu metal, their catchy yet metal style.") Emmaneul ^(Talk) 21:31, 18 August 2007 (UTC)

Why do we even discuss this when all that needs to be done is for Emmaneul to mention the tons of professional reviews mentioning nu metal? Like someone said before, wikipedia isn't a democracy. To be honest, all this 'full authority' thing kind of freaks me out, I'm very neat, used to discussions. Anyway, I'm glad my long response was read and supported by my fellow SOAD-fans, and I hold on to my answers, even though I regret my kind of rude and sarcastic tone, but I was caught in the heat of the moment, actually believing debating would help, but no. And I don't really think 'uncivil' was fair. But anyway, keep 'nu-metal' if it is mentioned in all those tons of reviews, since discussing the matter doesn't take it anywhere.Revan ltrl 15:28, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

There were 5 refs to nu-metal in the infobox before this whole nu-metal debate escalated (see [1]). Now, two of the source are in the style section. If you want more, try these review sites. Kameejl ^(Talk) 10:07, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Restoring the demo tapes to the discography?

What do you guys think about restoring the demo tapes to the discography? I think they've been unfairly deleted. There are articles about demos of Metallica or Avenged Sevenfold, so why not SOAD? The demos are notable, they have been officially released (at least Demo Tape 1, 2 and 3). gracz54 ^(talk) 10:13, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

No problem with mentioning demos in a discography, but any release that isn't widely available for verification needs reliable sources to account for existence and content. - Cyrus XIII 10:20, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

What do you mean by "widely available"? Those tapes can't be widely available now, they're a) circa ten years old, b) no one heard about SOAD back then. gracz54 ^(talk) 11:14, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

I think all the tapes (Untitled, 1, 2, 3, and 4) deserve a mention as their own articles they were either officially released or part of a leak which now everyone has... If no one wants it as 5 pages we could merge it all into one and mabye that would clean up the discography page a bit more.216.8.154.10 23:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)

They are mentioned in System of a Down discography. I don't see why they should be mentioned here. Kameejl ^(Talk) 13:42, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Zouavman Le Zouave 17:46, 28 September 2007 (UTC)

It's cause IMO the discography section looks ugly. The demo's deserve their own page(s). 216.8.134.178 (talk) 03:44, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Genre consensus

The heated discussions seem to be over. Can I now assume we (again) reached consensus on the following main genres?

Alternative metal
Experimental rock
Nu metal
Various influences

SoaD is too diverse to have all genres in the infobox. The genres not present in the infobox are explained in the Various influences section. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 19:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Very well said. I have nothing to add to that. ^^ Zouavman Le Zouave 19:39, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

That's probably the best option as far as this subject goes. While I myself do not agree with SOAD being labeled as nu metal, a plethora of sources have been provided stating as such. And as we all know, the threshold of inclusion on wikipedia is verifiability, not necessarily the truth, so I'm fine with this list. Can we finally stop arguing about this seemingly trivial issue? Parsecboy 20:09, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that since nu metal is debated, we should have that in fine print beside the genre.74.124.33.181 21:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Considering the size of the infobox (which is relatively small), we'll have to leave the genre debate for the "styles and influences" section. Zouavman Le Zouave 21:35, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Ya, i guess that would make it look a little better. Also, should we change the name of the Various influences link? I don't think the word "influences" should be used. 74.124.33.181 22:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I think it's fine as is, but what would you prefer instead? Perhaps there is a better option. Parsecboy 23:21, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I also think it's fine as it is, but I'm open to discussion. Zouavman Le Zouave 23:33, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

I can't really think of another word to be used. Hopefully someone will come up with something. I was also wondering what happened to the Genre Dispute section. I think it should be added to the article 'cause the style and ifluence section only talks about their experimentation and influences, and not the disputes with genres. ex: nu metal 74.124.33.181 03:54, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Well post the ideas as you get them, we're not in a hurry. The contents of the Genre Dispute section (which mainly describes the style of the band) are included in the "Style and Influences" section. I think the section is extremely neutral and I don't think the "genre dispute" really needs more than a sentence in the article, which should be in the styles and influences section. I think the current version of the article is good in that it is sourced (for pretty much every sentence), neutral, and contains citations by the band on their genre and clearly states that the band is difficult to categorize. Zouavman Le Zouave 10:14, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Originally, the name for the link to the influences section was Various others, like Queens's infobox, but I think Various is fine too. Other suggestions: Various genres, Other genres…

Regarding the genre dispute section: I'm never in favor of a dispute section because it's always a section meant to point out band X is not genre Y (often original research). I don't feel such sections are encyclopedic. Better is a more positive style/influence approach where we can do the opposite; explain why SoaD is genre X, Y, Z and why they're different from those genres, backed up by sources. We have at least 1 source (BBC I believe) to back up SoaD are too prog to be nu. The style/influence could be expanded to meet those needs. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 11:11, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Should we change 'experimental rock' to 'experimental metal', but direct the link towards experimental rock? 74.124.33.181 22:14, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Uhhh... Why would we do that? By 'experimental rock', we mean 'experimental rock', not avant-garde metal. Zouavman Le Zouave 06:50, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

So if Experimental metal = Avant-garde metal, then Experimental rock should = Avant-garde rock (I know that's is not a genre). Could you explain why in metal's case, Experimental = Avant-garde, but in rock's case, Experimental = just Experimental. 74.124.33.181 19:52, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Okay, look at it this way: The name of the Experimental rock article is Experimental rock, and that of Avant-garde metal is Avant-garde metal. "Avant-garde rock" is not as widely used as "Experimental rock", and "Avant-garde metal" is used slightly more often than "Experimental metal". But anyways, that has more to do with the genres and their names than the System of a Down article. If you have an issue with it, you can always request a move. Zouavman Le Zouave 23:30, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

I was thinking we should change it to Experimental metal because System of a Down has a heavier sound than most rock bands. But I'm fine with leaving it as well. 74.124.33.181 00:23, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I disagree. I think that avant-garde metal (or Experimental metal, whatever you want to call it) doesn't suit System of a Down. I will make you listen to some experimental rock (which can be very heavy), and then I will make you listen to some avant-garde metal, if you really need to. Both genres have an extremely different sound. System of a Down does not fit into avant-garde metal. Zouavman Le Zouave 09:39, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I went to the wikipedia pages for both experimental rock and avant-garde metal, and i listened to about 5 bands from each page. i think that this is hard to judge, because each band has different levels of experimentation, and each band experiments with different elements. the experimentl rock bands i listened to weren't heavy at all, and a lot of them have punk influences, which are not present is SoaD's music. in the avant-garde metal bands i listened to, the heavier sound was consistent with SoaD, but artists such as Mr. Bungle changed between genres in one song. so i'm not sure where to put them. i agree that they are experimental. but they are heavier than most experimental rock, but not as "experimental" as the avant-garde metal i listened to. what do you think?74.124.33.181 19:53, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

I think that putting experimetal rock is good. The "heaviness" of the band doesn't really matter in that case. Do you really want to push this futher? Zouavman Le Zouave 11:30, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you explain to me the difference between experimental rock and experimental metal, other than one is rock and one is metal.74.124.33.181 18:38, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

The difference is, like you said: "one is rock, and the other is metal". As a rock band, System of a Down has some experimental properties that make it part of the experimental rock genre (among others). However, if System of a Down was to be treated as a heavy metal band, it wouldn't be avant-garde metal. It would be original, maybe, but not experimental. Zouavman Le Zouave 18:44, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

What i don't undertsand is that if you are a rock band with experimental elements, you are experimental rock, but if you are a metal band with experimental elements, you aren't experimental metal. the only difference between experimental rock and experimental metal should be that one is rock and one is metal, but the way you are explaining makes it sound like experimental metal is more experimental than experimental rock. 74.124.33.181 20:48, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

It's pretty simple to understand. Compared to many rock bands, System of a Down is quite different; different enough to be classified by some sources as experimental rock. Compared to many metal bands, System of a Down aren't that different, especially when we think of the nu metal bands. Do you really want to push this further? I'm kind of tired of it, I must admit, and I think that the infobox right now is extremely neutral and representative of the band's unique style. Putting avant-garde metal was discussed and I think it is a ridiculous idea to classify SoaD as avant-garde metal. Compare bands like Fantômas and System of a Down. You'll see what I mean. Zouavman Le Zouave 21:15, 2 September 2007 (UTC)

Experimental metal is a genre where the bands can't be compared, due to the wide forms of experimentation. I don't think it's fair to say, compare them to Fantômas and automatically say they aren't that genre just because those bands don't sound alike. I could say the same thing for nu metal. Compare system of a down to limp bizkit. i guess they're not nu metal either then because they dont really sound the same. 74.124.33.181 01:48, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that is very true. I was however comparing/contrasting them to Fantômas not in a context of similar sounds, but similar degrees of experimentation from the heavy metal genre. Fantômas stretches out metal much more than System of a Down do, that's my point. Zouavman Le Zouave 06:41, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

We can discuss this matter as long as we want, but any change we make should be backed up by sources. I have found few sources for both experimetal rock and avant-garde metal (a total of 3, didn't look for experimental metal). If experimental rock is a problem then we might need another, better fitting genre to reflect SoaD's experimental nature, or completely remove it from the infobox and add the terms to the style section.

But like Zouave says, I don't think avant-garde metal will fit SoaD. AG metal is rooted in extreme metal (death/black), SoaD isn't. But experimental metal is not that bad, if you consider AG metal not to be a synonym (I don't know but to me, considering avant-garde metal to be the same as experimental metal feels like original research, the whole AG metal article is OR). Emmaneul ^(Talk) 09:34, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I generally think of avant-garde metal and experimental metal as the same thing. In both cases, I think it is wrong to use it to label SoaD's genre. If we were to change experimental rock to something else in the infobox, I would strongly recommend alternative rock. Zouavman Le Zouave 10:23, 3 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't think experimental metal and avant-garde metal are the same thing. I think experimental metal is the same as experimental metal, only with more metal influences. Experimental rock basically refers to bands that are very experimental compared to their peers, which System of a Down falls under. Avant-garde metal is similar to Progressive rock/metal in that it is more narrow. You could consider avant-garde metal a sub-genre under/form of experimental rock, just like metal is to rock music. From what I've heard, avant-garde metal is much more experimental and unorthodox, and draws influence from heavier forms of metal, and has has some traits in common with noise music. I think the way we have the genres now is best (though I may be biased as I helped come to this conclusion). If we were to remove experimental rock, I would propose we should put progressive metal in its place. I don't see it as being as correct as experimental rock, but it shows up more in reviews and the like by professionals, and out of all the forms of experimental rock (art rock, avant-garde metal, progressive rock, progressive metal, post-rock/metal), I think it is the most fitting, and appears more commonly in their music than any of those. This is all just opinion of course. Also, about the "varying influences" debate, I might be a little biased as I am the one who first put up that title for it, but I think it should stay. The reason I had switched the title in the info box to that (it was originally just "various") is because I thought it represented their music more. I am also the one who added most of that stuff about their genre influences into the styles and influences section. As I had said their, in my mind, System of a Down has a single genre throughout their career, but that that base sound is a mix of a multitude of different INFLUENCES. That is why I put varying influences and that is why I think it should remain. Of course, this is all opinion, and I don't mind compromising, or switching my views altogether. Mr. Nebbles 21:10, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Zelda Song

I'm pretty sure SoaD did not do this, but Flash Flash Revolution R1 credited this to SoaD. So what I want to know, is who actually did this song, if SoaD didn't? 74.69.245.119 00:11, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

• If no one understands what I'm talking about, it starts off with "So Link has come to town / come to save, the princess Zelda ... " to a remixed zelda theme. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.69.245.119 (talk) 00:15, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

No, SOAD did not record that song. I can't remember who did, at the moment, but I know it's been discussed here before, somewhere in the archives. Here it is Talk:System_of_a_Down/archive2#Zelda Parsecboy 00:19, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The band who did the song is The Rabbit Joint. (Sources: 1, 2, 3) Zouavman Le Zouave 08:26, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

The Rabbit Joint is another band that is often credited with this song, but i beleive its by Joe Pleiman, who was the lead singer of the rabbit joint. It often gets mixed up because the album was called the rabbit joint, which was most likely named after his band. 74.124.33.181 20:14, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

Any sources? Zouavman Le Zouave 21:10, 10 September 2007 (UTC)

http://lyricwiki.org/Joe_Pleiman:Legend_of_Zelda i might be able to find more. 74.124.33.181 11:13, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

Here is a good source[2]. gracz54 ^(talk) 21:31, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

New Song?

I've been hearing a song on the radio by System of a Down that ive never heard before. I can never catch the name. Is this a copycat band or them?

Ive listened to every song SoaD has too. Even ones that arnt on albums. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.205.70.254 (talk) 14:17, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

Was the song called 'The Unthinking Majority' or 'Empty Walls'? Serj Tankian, SoaD's lead singer, has a solo album coming out and those two songs have been released to the radio. You probably heard his voice and thought it was SoaD. 74.124.33.181 14:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

The radio and Digital Download singles, to be exact. gracz54 ^(talk) 15:20, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

System of the Down

I have an old promo sticker of theirs from 1996 and the band was called "System of the Down". Relevant enough to include? 76.245.62.113 16:50, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Could you scan it and upload the pic, i would be interested to see it. It might have been a 3rd party sticker, and they got the name wrong. So its probably not official. 74.124.33.181 20:19, 18 September 2007 (UTC)

Don't Put System of a Down as Nu metal PLEASE!!!

I deleted nu metal on their genre. People you have to know the difference between Nu metal and Alternative, or hard rock. I don't consider soad as Nu Metal, sense they don't consider themselves, and i don't consider them. Secondly, they never rap on their FU**ING songs! Then I don't consider Disturbed, and Godsmack as Nu Metal either. There more like Hard Rock bands. Nu Metal is a mainstream shi*t now. So there's lots of people calling several bands Nu Metal, like soad. Nu Metal is Slipknot, Korn, Linkin Park, Limp Bizkit, and I'm sure theres more bands like them out there. All those Nu Metal bands have at least a DJ, and they use sound effects, and they rap. So does System of a Down, Distubed, and Godsmack have any of that staff in their music??? NO!!!!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.76.55 (talk) 23:06, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

What you consider genre X doesn't matter. We only need information that is verifiable and neutral. Do Slipknot and Korn rap on their songs? Please read what's on this page and in the archives to know why nu metal should be included. Emmaneul ^(Talk) 18:56, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Although a lot of people disagree with nu metal, we have come to an agreement that it should be listed. As for what Emmaneul said, both Korn and Slipknot do rap in a lot of their songs, and there are sources calling them both rap-metal and rapcore. But this is irrelevant. Even though SoaD do not rap, they have a lot of nu metal traits. A lot of people see nu metal as a derogatory term, which is probably because of a few bands such as Limp Bizkit, but I'm sure we all know SoaD is a more talented band than them. So don't look at nu metal as a bad thing, its just a genre. Why should it matter anyways, as long as you like the music. P.S, nu metal helped older metal bands get new, younger fans. 74.124.33.181 22:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Somebody changed the Nu-Metal tag again today. Whilst I have reverted back I need to make sure this is the right thing to do? Does everybody agree? Stefanjcarney 20:34, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I believe so, yes. Zouavman Le Zouave 10:50, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Debated Nu Metal

Since nu metal is debated, i think (Debated) should be written besdie it.Boozer123 22:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The other genres are debated as well, just not by the same communities. A lot of metalheads, those who listen to the more extreme genres of metal (death, black, etc.) would not consider System of a Down a metal band. People who listen to a lot of experimental music including experimental rock artists like Fantômas or Mr. Bungle would argue that System of a Down shouldn't be listed as experimental rock because they judge that they do not experiment enough with sound and songwriting techniques. Nu metal is just as debated as the other genres are, and let's leave that for the "Styles and influences" section, for the infobox is very well balanced as of now. Now if you want to discuss the "Styles and influences" section, that's another story. Zouavman Le Zouave 23:13, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

Band Member Name Deletion

I came here looking for the current band member's names, but some idiot has gotten rid of them. If someone who knows all their names would put them back I'd really appreciate it. Bhree 18:27, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Serj Tankian is the lead vocalist and he occasionally plays the guitar and piano. Daron Malakian is the lead guitarist and he is sometimes a vocalist. John Dalmayan is the drummer. Shavo Odadjian is the bassist.

the Db statement

It should read C#. While they are the same, C# is the more common usage in wetern music. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Otcconan (talk • contribs) 17:24, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

I know c# and Db are the same, but every source i see says Db, so we might as well leave it at that. 99.234.164.101 20:20, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

System is NOT reuniting

That thing about them reuniting in 2008 for a few songs is an unsourced website and will be deleted. As far as I'm concerned until the band or a reliable source of info confirms it is not true. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.8.154.163 (talk) 00:12, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Serj Tankian

What is Eventually.... and why isn't it sourced? Also i don't Serj Tankian left hes just on hitas as is the rest of the band so why is her under left? Link287 (talk) 01:07, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

Soil

I flip through these sections often and notice that many if not all of the side projects of the band have the related articles or something like that relating to Soil. Like I mean no one has or ever will hear Soil as it was a short lived band that for all we know could be a fricken b-boy group. The only things we know about it is that it featured the apex theory bassist, local hawaii drummer, shavo, daron, and serj and that's it. Given this we can assume that Soil has nothing to do with any side projects other than SOAD itself. So from now on don't link or add it to any of the side projects pages. But hey this is my opinion feel free to say what you need. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.8.134.178 (talk • contribs)

Years Active

I think it should be changed to 1995-2006, seeing as they aren't active as of right now. Just because they didn't officially break up, doesn't mean they are still active. They arent working together, and have no plans for tours in the next 4 or 5 years. Lets change it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.234.164.101 (talk) 03:52, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

It states that the band is on hiatus, I think that's sufficient to describe the situation. Parsecboy (talk) 04:02, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

System of a Down is not nu-metal

If you think it is, you don't know what nu-metal is. 70.122.23.62 (talk) 02:55, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

Please see Talk:System_of_a_Down#Nu_Metal....., Talk:System_of_a_Down/Archive_3#Nu_metal, and all the other sections where this has been discussed to death. Give it a rest. Parsecboy (talk) 03:29, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

We have been through a lot (and I really mean a LOT) of discussion on the genres of the infobox. The most neutral and consensus-approved solution was the one that is still in place. This solution has remained for practically six months, which I think is a record. Developped encyclopedic coverage of the genre can be made in the appropriate section of the article. As for the infobox, I would say that it should only be modified after a great amount of discussion yields a clear and enlightened consensus. Zouavman Le Zouave 15:38, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Agreed with Zouavman, the genres should only be changed after significant discussion leading to a clear consensus. Parsecboy (talk) 17:05, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

system is over

it should say 1995-2006 without the hiatus. because daron said that they werent talking about a reunion and he said if we are holding our breath for a record, we would turn blue and pass out. Nardulli22 (talk) 02:41, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

A lot of people can say a lot of things; until the band officially states otherwise, they're on a hiatus. If and when they do officially break up, the article will be altered accordingly. Until then, the best option is to stick with what the sources commonly state. Parsecboy (talk) 04:45, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I've read the interview, and Malakian did not say SoaD was over. He said that there was no intention to reunite the band currently, but did not deny the possibility that the band will reunite someday. Zouavman Le Zouave 15:33, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

i wouldn't assume anything based on one magazine interview. i've heard an interview where maynard says that there will be another APC album in the future and then in another interview done a week or two after that he says that there won't. people can say odd things on a particular day, or even change their mind after a couple of years. remember a couple years ago when billy corgan "broke up" the smashing pumpkins and made this big speech about him never performing those songs again and closing a chapter in his life? and here we are 7 years later with a new SP album & EP and another in the works all because billy had no luck with his 2nd band or solo venture. so when daron says in an interview "there won't be another soad album for a looong time", don't take it too seriously. wait for him to get bored with his side-project and spend all of his soad money, and i can guarantee that he'll be singing a different tune. i bet you we'll see at least 1 new album from the group before 2015.65.43.216.22 (talk) 14:26, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Daron is high almost all the time, so you can't really take what he says too seriously. OrangeRorange (talk) 01:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Oh my, what a constructive comment was that! Zouavman Le Zouave 13:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Well it's true.OrangeRorange (talk) 00:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't believe it's verifiable. Please stick to constructive discussion about the original topic. -- Reaper X 02:24, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Stop changing the freakin' genres

It seems the only activity this page has seen over the past week or more is continual alterations of the genre, either in the infobox, or the lead. It's been primarily anon editors making these disruptive changes, and if it continues, I might just semi-protect the page to put a stop to it.

For all of you who disagree with the genres in either location, please remember that there is a talk page for a reason. This issue has proven to be highly contentious in the past. Take a look throug the old dicussions here and in the archives before making any change; your arguments will likely have been addressed at some point. Even if they have not been addressed (which is unlikely), you must still begin a discussion on the talk page first, before any changes can be made. Thank you. Parsecboy (talk) 15:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Parsecboy. This current situation with the genres in the infobox and the lead has been working for practically half a year, which is a record. All changes must require an enlightened and clear consensus. Zouavman Le Zouave 17:27, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Genres in the infobox

I'm against undiscussed changes about the genre that's why we need a new discussion about that. Why don't we put the big four classifications written in the part "style and influences" in the infobox (Alternative/Nu/Progressive Metal and Hard Rock)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdjulazat (talk • contribs) 19:07, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Before making any changes, an enlightened, long-term consensus has to be found. I believe that the genres should not be changed for they are in good balance and reflect a neutral point of view. I would think that progressive metal and hard rock are unnecessary in the infobox since they cannot be applied on most of their songs. Progressive metal, which is dominated by time signature changes, would be difficult to apply to SoaD, which has a rather uniform 4/4 or 6/4 time signature in most of their songs. Hard rock is very closely related to blues, with bands such as Led Zeppelin and AC/DC. I would think that grouping SoaD with this movement would be an error. Mentionning those genres as what SoaD has been described as in the section is enough, in my opinion. I would also like to point out that this article used to undergo extremely frequent genre changes and revert wars until the current consensus was found. This current situation has lasted for more than 6 months, and I think we should keep the article this way, rather than try out different combinations just because we feel like it. Regards, Zouavman Le Zouave 22:04, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I think it's best to leave the infobox as it is. It's probably the best combination, as far as accuracy as well as sourcing are concerned. I know the nu metal issue irks some people (I myself don't consider them nu metal), but they have been repeatedly included in that genre by quite a few reliable sources, so, to be frank, get over it. Again, there's no need to rock the boat for what would be at best no real gain for the article, and in all likelyhood would just cause edit wars and lengthy diatribes here on the talk page. Parsecboy (talk) 22:16, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

yes but Disturbed is also described as hard rock and they played nu metal and not blues-rock before.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdjulazat (talk • contribs) 11:35, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm against a Parsecboy/Zouavman Le Zouave-Dictatoship about the infobox (genre). I changed the infobox because we have to give the visitors a short and easy to understand view about soad's style. I'm totally against the term "experimental rock" and there is no link to soad (see experimental rock). I'm also against the term "nu metal" but I'll accept. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdjulazat (talk • contribs) 16:26, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no "Parsecboy/Zouavman Dictatorship" going on here, we are just upholding the consensus that was reached several months ago, and has remained stable in the time since then. Again, if you think something should be changed, you must do so on the talk page first. That's just how Wikipedia works. Please read WP:CON for further information. Parsecboy (talk) 17:46, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I said the reasons some weeks ago. ALL of these "new" genres in the infobox (Alt.M./Hard R./Nu M./Progr.M.) have ONE or MORE links. The term "experimental rock" has NO link (in internet AND Wikipedia). I think it is necessary to write genres in the infobox who have links and who are accepted by music pages (like rollingstone or allmusicguide). I did not want to hurt someone, I only want to improve the page to give a good overview about Soad. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdjulazat (talk • contribs) 20:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

The question of genres is elaborated in the section, no need to spoil the infobox with references, there is a section for that. As for claiming Parsecboy and I are collaborating in some kind of "Dictatorship", I would invite you to read WP:AGF, WP:TINC, and WP:NPA before making any other comments. The previous consensus has lasted for over 6 months on a page where the page suffered daily edit wars. This has been done through months of discussion which yielded a clear, enlightened consensus, that made the article concise, unbiased, and balanced. Now before you change the article around according to your views, which I respect, we should discuss the issue and get a consensus. I will revert your edits to the article and I invite other users to do so as well if you continue to modify this aspect of the article without a long-term consensus. Regards, Zouavman Le Zouave 22:15, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok, but then give links to "your" genres, please. If you want you can change the infobox, I changed it before I read your new edit. I understand your position about the genres in the infobox (really) and I don't want to create my "own" dictatorship about it. But my position about that is the same as before. I think that we should write the 4 "major genres" in the infobox to give a good and easy (and right) info about soad's music. I gave you the the reasons of my opinion and I know that every one has an own opinion about that. That's why I think the four "major genres" are a good compromise for all because it's a kind of wide "umbrella term" to describe their genre/music.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Mrdjulazat (talk • contribs) 13:33, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Why Experimental rock? I know that their music is experimental but they are NOT EXPERIMENTAL ROCK. That's a false term to describe soad's music. In the article, "experimental rock" is linked to http://www.drownedinsound.com/release/view/4822. Those who read this link will understand my critic: There is a comparison to experimental rock bands (like Jane's Addiction) BUT the text says THAT SOAD IS HEAVIER AND MORE AGGRESSIVE than experimental rock bands("System of a Down, while considerably heavier and more aggressive ..."; line 8).

That's why this link is dead and there are no more links which support the term "experimental rock". Because of this reasons Soad should be described as Avant-garde metal (disputed, but there doesn't have to be a relation to death/black metal, look at the article) or (better and with ONE OR MORE LINKS) as Progressive metal. Soad isn't a full Progressive metal band, I KNOW, but they are not a full Nu Metal band, too. Mrdjulazat 13:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

System ARE Metal.

Linkin Park are rock. They're basic and mild, But System are heavy and fast,

They are metal in general.

Coagula (talk) 13:44, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

In order to respect the neutral point of view, rock is used in the introduction for it does not exclude metal out of the picture. The style and influences section describes the genre issue, feel free to read. Zouavman Le Zouave 17:59, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

System are not Nu-Metal.

I know this subject was discussed a million times, but the fact is that an agreement (or "consensus" as you like to call it) was never reached. First of all, after reading the reasons you gave on the talk page for why System IS nu-metal, I have to say that most of them are illegible reasons. The fact that System follows a "Verse Chorus Verse" pattern doesn't make them Nu-Metal, or otherwise you'll have to call The Beatles nu-metal too. Secondly, you keep saying that critics have called SOAD "Nu-Metal", but that doesn't stand for anything. You can't really give a band who's genre changes in every song a label. You can call them Experimental, or Alternative - if a band doesn't fit in any known genre, Alternative will be a correct label for it. Lastly, quoting articles that call SOAD "Nu-Metal" does not prove them to be so, and is not a reliable source: Those articles didn't call SOAD "Nu-Metal" based on their musical knowledge, it was based on other articles or websites (i.e Wikipedia) that have stated the same mistake. An article might as well call SOAD a Jazz ensemble. If they'll do, will you put "Jazz" in the infobox? I don't think so.

Who cares? Just leave it; if people want to call them nu-metal, they can call them nu-metal. They'll just have to live with being wrong.

They have been labeled nu-metal by the press many many times. On wikipedia we only cite, we don't state our opinions. Some reasons posted earlier: "The popularity of SoaD during the nu metal era, the alteration of clean melodic/harsh vocals, the low tuned guitars, the mainstream popularity, the lack of solos, the tons of professional reviews mentioning nu metal, their catchy yet metal style. They are no less nu metal than Slipknot (band), Coal Chamber, Disturbed (band) etc". Kameejl ^(Talk) 20:09, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? Half of the reasons you quoted here are not only wrong, but most of them are not even true. "The popularity of SoaD during the nu-metal area" - are you kidding me? Metallica is still popular in many places today. Does that make them a Hip-Hop band? "the low tuned guitars" - Huh? The fact that some nu-metal band tune their guitars like that doesn't make any band who uses Drop C a nu-metal band. Static X uses the same tuning and they're definitely not nu-metal. "their catchy yet metal style" - I'm sorry, but this is the most ridiculous reason ever, and it's not a legible one.

You might not agree, but there are sources to back it up. All the arguments refer to common nu-metal traits and can be applied to SoaD. What you do is turning around arguments. By turning around arguments you are not proving anything. I'll use an example to show you why your argumentation is flawd:

Argument: An eagle is a bird because it has 2 wings, 2 feet and a beak.

Counter argument: 2 wings? mosquito's have 2 wings, mosquito's are not birds. It can't be a bird. Humans have 2 feet, and humans aren't eagles. A beak? that is the most ridiculous reason ever, and it's not a legible one.

And by the way, Static X has been labeled nu metal by the press many times. I think you might want to reconsider your view on nu-metal. Do some research, listen to Slipknot, Disturbed, Papa Roach, P.O.D., Godsmack, Coal Chamber and SoaD's early releases and you'll see nu metal doesn't have to sound like Korn or Limp Bizkit (do it for the sake of research, not for sake of good taste :)). Kameejl ^(Talk) 12:40, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

But Soad has been labeled progressive metal and hard rock by the press, too. Why aren't these two genre in the infobox? Mrdjulazat (Talk) 22.Apr.2008

Because users decided through a long lasting consensus that those genres were to be developped in the section, not the infobox. One of the reasons users have chosen those three genres in the infobox is that they reflected a neutral balance and did not spoil the infobox with superfluous genres, since it was limited to three. As I keep on saying, this solution has lasted for half a year on a page where the infobox and introduction changed radically every day. I think disturbing the already well-established consensus would be a mistake, since we would be opening Pandora's box once again, and yielding to an eventual return to the unstable state it was before the consensus was found. This is why I think that we should keep the things the way they are, but I am willing to discuss that with other users if need be. Zouavman Le Zouave 11:17, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I understand your position but I think the term "Nu Metal" is wrong to describe Soad's music. We all know that Soad is a succesful metal/rock band but that doesn't make them a "Nu Metal"-band like Korn.

Their experimental style - to combine heavy metal, thrash metal, punk rock and other genres - is known. But to describe them as "Experimental rock" is too low because their music is more aggressive. :I know that "Rock" should be neutral but we should describe Soad's as dircectly as we can: their music is more Metal than Rock. (NPOV)

That's why I think we (also) should categorize them as "Progressive Metal" (although disputed; but the term "Nu Metal", too) because that include their experimental style and their their heavy style.

We don't need daily changes about the genre, we need a compromise: Why don't we put one more genre in the Infobox? There are too many different opinions about the genre(s) (mostly the "Nu Metal" term) and I think one more genre would make the situation much better. But that's only an idea. mrdjulazat (Talk) —Preceding comment was added at 09:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The nu metal genre has been applied an enormous number of times to System of a Down, by journalists, musicologists, etc. The incredible number of sources labeling them as nu metal makes it legitimate to put that genre in the infobox. One good example of how System of a Down has been labeled nu metal is by musicologist Garry Sharpe-Young, who is a specialist of rock and metal music, having released numerous books about diverse subgenres and scenes (see here). You say "their music is more Metal than Rock." I beg to differ. The underground metal communities do not consider System of a Down metal at all. One example of this is how System of a Down is not listed in Encyclopaedia Metallum. You are free to say that you consider the band's sound more metal than rock, I grant you that, but that point of view may not under any circumstance go into the article, for it represents a non-neutral point of view. As for "progressive metal", I don't see any reliable source that labels them as such. Zouavman Le Zouave 10:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, if Nu Metal means modern/experimental metal than you'll totally right. But I think the most people will think about bands like Korn or Limp Bizkit if they read the word "Nu Metal". I've nothing against the word, I'm only against a false interpretation about Soad's style to be like Korn or Linkin Park (I'm not against those bands!).

I know that the most underground metal communities do not consider Soad as metal but the press and many music pages do so. My quote "their music is more Metal than Rock" meant that their music is "closer" to heavy metal than the music of other Nu metal bands.

I think that there are some "reliable sources" that label Soad as Progressive metal like RollingStone or MTV:

http://www.mtv.com/news/articles/1502898/20050525/system_of_a_down.jhtml
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/8957307/system_of_a_down

So I think we should add the Progressive metal term and keep the Nu metal term. mrdjulazat(Talk)

Nu metal doesn't have to be interpreted as anything, it's a musical genre including System of a Down and various other bands. The article concerning the genre describes it pretty well. I still believe that the progressive metal part should be included in the section and not the infobox. System of a Down does not sound at all like progressive metal bands such as Dream Theater or Symphony X, and does not share many musical characteristics with the movement nor has interacted much with members of the progressive metal scene (to my knowledge). A couple months ago, System of a Down's sound was found to have a great number of similarities with most nu metal bands, which is one of the reasons why nu metal is in the infobox. I hardly see any similarities with the progressive metal sound, apart from the occasional tempo changes. Zouavman Le Zouave 18:37, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

"System of a Down does not sound at all like progressive metal bands such as Dream Theater or Symphony X". Sure. Soad sounds like Soad, their sound is special. Progressive metal is a wide category. I think there are two good links and those links are good reasons to include the term Progressive metal in the infobox but if you are completely against it than I will not add it. mrdjulazat(Talk) —Preceding comment was added at 08:48, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

I would say I am against the addition of progressive metal in the infobox, since I think it is a minor facet of their sound that is better explored and explained in the section. And I agree with you, their sound is special, which makes it tricky to find the right equilibrium to describe their style. Regards, Zouavman Le Zouave 18:45, 26 April 2008 (UTC)

System actually has been involved with a few progressive metal/rock bands. Serj sang the song "Sober" on stage last year with Tool (band), and John has drummed with Tool (band) on two occasions; once last year, and once in 2002. Tool (band) is clearly progressive metal. Also, SoaD's 2005 tour was with The Mars Volta, a progressive/art/rock/metal band, and Bad Acid Trip, an experimental metal/grindcore group. So SoaD have had plenty of interactions with members of the progressive metal scene. 99.234.164.101 (talk) 14:16, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

That does not have any implications on their sound and style. A polka band could tour with a rap band, it would not make them rap and polka, respectively. They definitely have been labeled progressive metal, but as I have said in the above paragraph, I believe it should be developped in the section, not in the infobox. Zouavman Le Zouave 15:55, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Zouave, the infobox should only have the few most prominent genres into which SoaD has been included; the rest should go in the section devoted to style in the text. Parsecboy (talk) 17:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Although I disagree, I'll accept it. mrdjulazat

Thank you for your cooperation, I appreciate it. Regards, Zouavman Le Zouave 12:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Sounds heavily influenced by the band Depressive Age

I recently heard this Technical/Progressive Thrash metal band called Depressive Age who's vocal and musical style greatly reminds me of SOAD, especially the bizarre vocal styling, albeit the music they mame is a lot more complicated, but it still reminds me greatly of it, have the band ever mentioned them as an influence? Their releases greatly predate them, and this reminds me a lot of that thing I heard that sounded like a ripped off Melody from an Emperor song used in one of there's. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Free2game365 (talk • contribs) 00:54, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you find a source that explicitly claims that Depressive Age has had an influence on the band, sure, go ahead and add it with a ref. ;-) Zouavman Le Zouave 10:51, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Infobox

How can you write Experimental rock in the infobox? Soad is a metal and hard rock group. We should delete experimental rock and add Hard rock in the infobox cause their music is described as it (many sources!). You can also call them Punk metal or Avantgarde metal but not experimental rock! That's totally wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.173.11.119 (talk • contribs)

They are experimental rock because they experiment with their sound, and use many unconventional lyrics. Why do you find it so hard to accept that. It seems you are more into the band for the image than the music.99.234.164.101 (talk) 02:12, 20 May 2008 (UTC)