Talk:Tibet

lead section

I now restored an (my) older version of the lead section once again. I see it has often been reverted by one particulatr user, but I don't know what exactly is wrong with it. The main differences, as far as I can see, to the previous version are:

• "ethnic Mongol Chinese state" is replaced by Mongol empire, then Yuan dynasty: more exact, no weaseling around, facts instaed of interpretations. (with a source that probably trumps Tom Grunfelds short discussion(?) paper)
• "four hundred years later, Tibet was further incorporated into China"-like stuff omitted: Seems to imply some kind of historical law that Tibet becomes ever more integrated with China, which is at least doubtful. Plus the Mongols in the 13th/14th centuries had no plans for Tibet in the 17th and 18th centuries.
• "with the support of Mongol/Oirad factions"-like statement added: not really necessary, although not insignificant. But IMO the Oirad stuff helps to understand what the Qing were doing in Lhasa in 1720.
• info on 1720, ambans etc added: No idea what could be wrong with this.

I would really like to discuss these changes bit by bit. I have never seen a meaningful discussion of the previous reverts beyond "Yuan dynasty was a Chinese dynasty", which is not contrary to my version of the intro at all. Yaan (talk) 18:53, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I think the Yuan Dynasty statement in the present version is fine. However, I think lets not get into the definition of these terms (Yuan Dynasty, Chinese dynasty or not, blah blah), and just stick to the statement that are referenced by the sources. I understand that since many users edits this article, many want to use their preferred sources. I think without too much conflict, we should accommodate as much as possible. That is why I did not revert you adding statements about "Dalai Lama both times with support from different Mongol and Oirad factions" or change the statement you changed about the Mongol Empire and Yuan Dynasty. I removed the last few statements you added to the article using citation from Sigfried J. de Laet, History of Humanity because (I already responded this to user Littlebutterfly before hand) that the source didn't directly mention these statements.--TheLeopard (talk) 19:17, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

OK, all this makes sense, but why are we keeping "Tibet was further incorporated into China"? I don't know what that means, but if it means that Tibet became more "Chinese" during the Qing, or that China extended its control over Tibet during the Qing, then it's false as well as confusingly written. I really think it should come out. Yunfeng (talk) 19:36, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yunfeng, the main reason is because it is cited with a source by Tibetologist Tom Grunfeld. Yaan added a few more statement with sources by Tom Grunfeld (about Mongols), that is why I don't see why not other statements cited by him has to go.

Second, I don't want to get into political reasoning about your above statement ("I don't know what that means, but if it means that Tibet became more "Chinese" during the Qing, or that China extended its control over Tibet during the Qing, then it's false as well as confusingly written"). I understand that there are various interpretations of history, especially heated and politically controversial one like this. That is why I respect your opinion and don't want to turn this into a debate over it. The best thing I can offer is that we can also use archived references (such as old Catholic Encyclopedia and Western encyclopedias and sources that are published during the Qing Dynasty) to help cite things concerning the Qing Dynasty. One thing about modern interpretaions of history I'm sure you understand is that is comes in variety of opinions. I'm sure you also know that the Qing Dynasty wasn't called "Qing Dynasty" in English during its lifetime, rather it was called Chinese Empire. I think the majority of the newspapers, encyclopedias, maps and books published in the 19th century can help clarify on that one.--TheLeopard (talk) 21:39, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

But that's exactly my point. It is not written clearly but seems to be a very POV sentence. Why do we need it at all?

Also, not that this matters, during its "lifetime" the Qing Dynasty was in fact called 大清国, or Great Qing Empire. Yunfeng (talk) 22:21, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree that this sentence seems unnecessary and it presents a potential POV problem. That is, it is unnecessary in the intro. If the same idea is presented elsewhere in the text, we will have room to describe it clearly.

Is Grunfeld really taken seriously as a Tibetologist by other Tibetologists?

I don't think it makes sense to rely particularly on 19th century accounts. Was the situation free of political controversy at that time? I doubt it. Beyond the POV issues, we wouldn't normally rely on a 19th century study of any given subject, because science has tended to learn a lot more about various subjects since then. I see no reason to trust that Western sources at the time knew or understood very much about Tibet.—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 04:21, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

I think mis-understood the original statement. 19th century was during the Qing Dynasty, obviously any sources written was about Qing during its time. It is contemporaneous of the period we're talking about.--TheLeopard (talk) 18:03, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Human rights section should be removed

After reading through this section it should either be removed or renamed "Why Chinese are dogs and Tibet deserves freedom" section. Referenced or not it's a far cry from unbiased. I don't even see why a section like that is needed Superstarwarsfan (talk) 03:41, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I have added some more references to the ‘human rights’ section. I have also removed a number of the “XYZ claims that…” phrases, because they (a) disrupt the flow/readability (b) are unnecessary; just click on the reference if you want to see who is making the claim.

I am not too surprised that this new section is upsetting some editors. Nevertheless, I absolutely disagree with claims that the information presented is biased, false, or unverified. Regarding neutral POV, what about consensus POV? Information about human rights in Tibet falls into 2 categories; in one the sole source is the Chinese Government, and in the other side is every other source (including UN, HRW, Amnesty, RSF, etc, etc….).

I would like to see the “neutrality disputed” tag removed from this section, can we please continue the discussion here to resolve specific concerns? Provide additional sources if you disagree with the information from existing sources. Logicman1966 (talk) 03:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

At best this section is a place for pro-Tibet to post links to anti-China websites and vice-versa. It really doesn't contribute to the article as a whole. Superstarwarsfan (talk) 03:52, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I will say it again - if you disagree with the existing sources then add your own, otherwise quit whining. And surely you cannot be serious about removing the section. Human Rights in Tibet is a very serious issue, and this page is the right place to cover it. Logicman1966 (talk) 04:14, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd agree entirely. However, some of the wording could probably made more neutral while preserving the facts. For instance: adding "According to Human Rights Watch, a non-government organization, Tibetans are denied...". (Which is done for several other sentences). It might also allay some concerns if sources could be found from a less-biased source. I'm not really disputing the accuracy of HRW or FreeTibet, but it's rather harder to argue that an article from the New York Times suffers from a bias. Just my $0.02. --Bfigura ^(talk) 04:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

It is essential to state where the sources is retreated from in a particular statement. In a controversial section like this, its important to differentiate the origin of the source, because many links cited in this section came from a particular organization.--TheLeopard (talk) 06:47, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

The user who started this section grouped a bunch of statements (with various citings) together. Some of the statements are not supported by one reference but the other, we have to pick them out and make sure they fit the accurate reference.--TheLeopard (talk) 07:26, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

referenced or not its a far cry from unbiased. Please review WP:NPOV. Wikipedia must report viewpoints held by both Chinese and human rights organizations. A statement of fact cannot be biased, and "X states Y" is a statement of fact. Gimme danger (talk) 12:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I should add however, that which facts ought to be included is up for discussion under WP:UNDUE. However, since the vast majority of English press regarding Tibet deals with human rights issues, I don't think it can reasonably contested that a "Human rights" section ought to be part of this article.

I am the one who started this section. I did it in good faith, and considered it to be an initial draft for further development. I tried to group the statements together into a logical sequence, and also tried to accurately link the statements to their supporting references. I appreciate the constructive edits done by other editors since then, and before I add any more references I will help to clean up the existing text so that it faithfully ties to the existing references.

GimmeDanger is absolutely correct in saying that a statement of fact (ie. has evidence to support it) cannot be biased; it is a fact, end of story. However, what often happens on other Wiki pages is that the argument then moves to which references are considered reliable. This is the reason I have used a variety of different sources. Logicman1966 (talk) 13:03, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Intro

The introduction to this article has developed a distinct bias in favour of a certain view of Tibet's history. "In the 17th century, Tibet was further incorporated into China in the Qing Dynasty" has the ring of a non sequitur, since it says "further", but the preceding sentence doesn't have anything to do with integration with China—more to the point, neither did the preceding phase of Tibetan history. The effect of the phrasing, as Yaan has pointed out, seems to be to imply that Tibetan history is a story in which it inevitably becomes more closely integrated with China. In case this is not yet clear enough, the next sentence hits you over the head with it: "In 1653, the 'Dalai Lama' became an official title, as it was recognized by the Qing government." "Dalai Lama" was a title of enormous importance before that, so this sentence has very marginal relevance. The next paragraph begins, "In 1912 the 13th Dalai Lama unilaterally declared separation from China. but two years later the 13th Dalai Lama expressed the willingness of accepting subordination to China." (note the odd punctuation, a common tell for sloppy editing). The first part of the sentence is slightly wrong: the declaration does not declare separation from China, it says "During the time of Genghis Khan and Altan Khan of the Mongols, the Ming Dynasty of the Chinese, and the Qing Dynasty of the Manchus, Tibet and China co-operated on the basis of a benefactor and priest relationship". In other words, this was a declaration that Tibet and China had been separate all along. The second part of the sentence, "but two years later the 13th Dalai Lama expressed the willingness of accepting subordination to China", is quite misleading. At the Simla convention, the Dalai Lama's representative was willing to concede Chinese suzerainty in return for something; the deal was quite favourable to Tibet, considering its precarious position at the time, as evidenced by the fact that the Tibetan government accepted it while the Chinese government completely refused (the Chinese government would certainly have accepted a simple acceptance of subordination). Then it says, "From 1912 to 1950, Tibet possessed the so-call "de facto independence'." How about we come up with a description of events which does not necessitate that we call our own description "so-called" (or "so-call", either). The statement that "No nation has ever recognized Tibet as independent", is presumably referring to modern times, but cannot be bothered to say that. It is also not true, but saying, "No nation other than Mongolia has ever recognised Tibet as independent during modern times" lacks a certain flair. The intro then says, "In the failure of a CIA funded rebellion in 1959, the 14th Dalai Lama fled into exile in India.". In fact, the rebellion began a long time before 1956. There are a lot of things one could say about the rebellion, so why does the article single out the fact that the CIA eventually became involved in it, except to try to give a biased impression to the reader? Also, the Dalai Lama left for India before the rebellion had failed; what's more, the way this is phrased implies that the Dalai Lama supported the rebellion, which is not true as far as I know. The next sentence points out that "He and the Tibetan Government in Exile have received millions from the CIA since the 60’s.'' What justifies putting this fact in the intro? This article is not the article on the current Dalai Lama, nor is it about the Central Tibetan Administration. The intro closes with "The Dalai Lama believes that in order for it to modernize, Tibet must remain within the People's Republic of China, although he also wants China to give 'a full guarantee of preservation of Tibetan culture. ' ". It can hardly be claimed that the importance of remaining within China is the main thing, or the most frequent thing, that the Dalai Lama has to say about Tibet ... so why are we making that the focus of the sentence?—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 03:56, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

That "Dalai Lama became official title in 1653" is indeed given by the source mentioned- the question is how reliable a general global history is. The citation also was not entirely correct last time I checked it: the volume number was not given, and while de Laet is the editor of these volumes, the actual statement is from an article written by, IIRC, Wang Sizhi. Yaan (talk) 11:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

CIA backing unsupported

In the article on Tibet there is mention that the 1959 uprising was supported by the CIA. Yet the statement itself is not supported. The footnote (#12) leads to a title, but it does not indicate [1]Authorship, [2]Date of Publication, or [3]whether the title refers to an article or a book. It is the most ridiculous footnote that I have seen. I would imagine even an elementary school teacher would have serious issues with that footnote. An allegation as serious as that needs proof. Please remove that comment. And, if it were written in a book, that does not make it a true statement. The book's footnote needs to be traced. You can't use a books offhand, unsupported comments as a serious proof. I don't know how Wikipedia works, I am just a casual reader, but this place needs more control. 75.16.48.145 (talk) 17:50, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

You can just google CIA, tibet and 1959, and then you can easily find many information. Actually CIA recognized this part of history. There is a book called something like: CIA's secret war in tibet. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apple88 (talk • contribs) 20:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism by User:Littlebutterfly

Yesterday I spent quite a lot of time checking some statements which appeared to me biased and/or very selective misuse of sources (leading to biased POVs). I even found a reference to an article by Parenti (but his name was not given - and there was no way of checking the reference if one did not happen to know the name of the article). I have repeatedly pointed out that he is a very unreliable source and there are gross historical errors in his article. I carefully said this when I removed the reference and told people to "see Discussion page of Tibet history for reasons" in case they wanted to know why I had removed it.

Although I have given good reasons for all my changes, "Littlebutterfly" has taken it upon him or herself to remove all the material I had added, even including direct well-referenced quotes and he /she even reinstated grammatical and spelling mistakes. His/her only excuse for this drastic action was only to say: "Restore some sourced material to provde balance."

This is not only misleading, but a clear case of vandalism. If User:Littlebutterfly does not agree with me on these issues he/she should make his or her positions clear on this page before deleting my well-referenced material and corrections again.John Hill (talk) 00:22, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism by Chibimaru8

Today I undid changes to some of the Chinese characters in this article made by Chibimaru8. Names for Tibet and Tibetans had been replaced by ethnic slurs. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Brusk (talk • contribs) 15:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Urgent. Would someone please merge the History section here with the History of Tibet article?

It was suggested last December that the History section here be merged with the History of Tibet article (see the "Merge to" box). This has become a matter of urgency as the History section is not only extremely long and dominates the whole article, but has made this article (which should be just a factual, general article on Tibet) into another forum for the pros and cons of the Chinese occupation of Tibet. Further, most of the "history" here duplicates material already handled in History of Tibet article.

I know it will be a difficult and thankless job, but it should be done soon. I would attempt it myself but am about to leave on a very busy two month trip and just don't have the time to do it properly.

If no one else will take this task on I propose to just delete the whole section and refer those who are unhappy about it to transfer sections that are unique or would improve the "History of Tibet" article to that page. Whatever the case, please add your suggestions here - or, better still, start making the transfer of data. Many thanks, John Hill (talk) 09:55, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I have just removed the "Prehistory" section as it is already dealt with in the History of Tibet article and was better referenced there.John Hill (talk) 10:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Is Tibet entitled to self-determination?

Is Tibet entitled to self-determination? This is the article by Senior Counsel Paul Harris originally commissioned by Hong Kong Lawyer, the journal of the Law Society, the Editorial Board of which approved, but then U-turned and decided not to publish. In the interests of freedom of speech and debate that are cornerstones of HK's success, Webb-site.com is publishing it instead. (26-Apr-08)

Is Tibet entitled to self-determination? http://webb-site.com/articles/tibetharris.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by LEARNMYHISTORY (talk • contribs) 08:56, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Addition to Human Rights Section

In February 2008 Norman Baker UK MP, released a statement to mark International Mother Language Day saying "The Chinese government are following a deliberate policy of extinguishing all that is Tibetan, including their own language in their own country. It may be obvious, but Tibetan should be the official language of Tibet. The world must act. Time is running out for Tibet." The rights of Tibetans, under Article 5 of the Universal Declaration on Cultural Diversity are to "express themselves and to create and disseminate their work in the language of their choice, and particularly in their mother tongue", as well as being "entitled to quality education and training that fully respect their cultural identity". Whilst playing lip service to protecting the Tibetan language, the Chinese government seems intent on subverting and eventually eliminating the use of the Tibetan mother tongue. The Chinese authorities occupying Tibet are making life impossible for Tibetans who are not fluent in Mandarin Chinese by passing laws to minimise teaching of Tibetan in schools and by replacing Tibetan language with Chinese language in many spheres of public life.

Some scholars have questioned this claim, however, as over 87% of Tibetans continue to reside in rural areas where Chinese is rarely if ever spoken. In the Texas Journal of International Law, Barry Sautman stated that "none of the many recent studies of endangered languages deems Tibetan to be imperiled, and language maintenance among Tibetans contrasts with language loss even in the remote areas of Western states renowned for liberal policies...claims that primary schools in Tibet teach putonghua are in error. Tibetan was the main language of instruction in 98% of TAR primary schools in 1996; today, putonghua is introduced in early grades only in urban schools...Because less than four out of ten TAR Tibetans reach secondary school, primary school matters most for their cultural formation."

Tibetologist Elliot Sperling has also noted that "within certain limits in the PRC does make efforts to accommodate Tibetan cultural expression" and "the cultural activity taking place all over the Tibetan plateau cannot be ignored."

In Tibet, primary education is conducted either primarily or entirely in the Tibetan language, and bilingual education is rarely introduced before students reach middle school. While it is true that Chinese is the main language of instruction of most Tibetan secondary schools, Tibetan language and culture continue to be emphasized through compulsory Tibetan literature, dance, and music classes. Students that continue on to tertiary education have the option of studying humanistic disciplines in Tibetan at a number of Minority colleges in China. This contrasts with Tibetan schools in Dharamsala, India, where the Ministry of Human Resource Development curriculum requires academic subjects to be taught in English beginning in middle school. Literacy and enrollment rates continue to be the main concern of the Chinese government. A large proportion of the adult population in Tibet remains illiterate, and despite compulsory education policies, many parents in rural areas are unable to send their children to school. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kelsangk (talk • contribs) 12:05, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

History of Tibet

I have just deleted the very long and unnecessarily repetitious section on the history of Tibet here and will now attempt to merge the info into the article History of Tibet removing duplication while trying to retain all properly referenced information not already in the History of Tibet article. This merging process has been recommended since December 2007.

I will do my best to be fair and thorough but, unfortunately, I am very pressed for time so I would be very grateful if knowledgeable persons would check the changes and excuse me for any oversights or mistakes. Sincerely, John Hill (talk) 01:08, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Very good edit. I'm sure it's up to your usual high standards but I'll take a look all the same. Yunfeng (talk) 20:19, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks User:MainBody for your work on the history section of Tibet article

Thanks so much for filling in the blank I left in the article. I was planning to get back to it sometime but I first had to remove all the clutter and merge what I could into the History of Tibet article. I think you have done a fabulous job of summarizing it all. Now, I had better get back to work completing the merger. Cheers, John Hill (talk) 01:13, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Request for limited Protection on All WIKI Pages on Tibet

Note:This is not my opinion, I just reaaded it after someone removed it. Do not rush to my talk page complaing Formerly 82.46.93.158 (talk) 19:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC) *In reference to what has turned into the "Main Arguments" and "Editing War" on Tibet Autonomy and Recognition, I submit the entry quoted below be ""removed"" and ""=Limited Protection imposed for 60 Days.=""

"In 1912 the 13th Dalai Lama unilaterally declared independence from China and returned to Lhasa in 1913[18], but two years later the Tibetans signed a treaty whose original text claims Tibet as "part of Chinese territory"[19], although China refused to ratify such document.[20] No country has ever recognized Tibet as independent.[21][22] However, Tibet possessed "de facto independence"[23] from 1912 to 1951 when, under Chinese military pressure, Beijing and Lhasa signed an agreement reintegrating Tibet.[24] The 14th Dalai Lama has said that: "in order to develop Tibet materially as a modern nation, Tibet must remain within the People's Republic of China. Provided Chinese give us a full guarantee of preservation of Tibetan culture, Tibetan environment, Tibetan spirituality, then it is of mutual benefit. [Besides] foreign affairs [and] defense [are] all the things which Tibetans can manage by themselves. Tibetans should have the full autonomy."[25]"

(1) Recognition that "under Chinese military pressure" is a farce. It is quite evident due to the Documentation in Print, Tape and on Film of the "People's Republic of China" Army attacked Tibet. Chairman Mao Zedong Chinese radio announcements were made about the imminent "liberation of Tibet".

On 7 October 1950, 40,000 Chinese troops under Political Commissar, Wang Qiemi, attacked Eastern Tibet's provincial capital of Chamdo, from eight directions. The small Tibetan force, consisting of 8,000 troops and militia, were defeated. After two days, Chamdo was taken and Kalon (Minister) Ngapo Ngawang Jigme, the Regional Governor, was captured. Over 4,000 Tibetan fighters were killed. I don't care how you dice or slice it, that is not "under Chinese military pressure". That's an invasion.

The Chinese aggression came as a shock to India. In a sharp note to Beijing on 26 October 1950, the Indian Foreign Ministry, Jawaharlal Nehru wrote:

"Now that the invasion of Tibet has been ordered by Chinese government, peaceful negotiations can hardly be synchronized with it and there naturally will be fear on the part of Tibetans that negotiations will be under duress. In the present context of world events, invasion by Chinese troops of Tibet cannot but be regarded as deplorable and in the considered judgement of the Government of India, not in the interest of China or peace."

(2) The statement, "No country has ever recognized Tibet as independent", is totaly false! There are Maps, Treaties, Travel Visas, even the China Empire itself recognized Tibet as independent. Remember the China of today has only been inpower sence 1949.

All in all, I "CAN NOT" state the existence of Tibet better then this; "TIBET is TIBET"

Where is your source, looks like purely personal opinon. 129.59.8.10 (talk) 16:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

TIBET

• TIBET, or Thibet, a country of central Asia. It is the highest country in the world, comprising table-lands averaging over 16,500 ft. above the sea, the valleys being at to 17,400 ft., the peaks at to 24,600 ft.., and the passes at 16,000 to 19,000 ft. It is bounded on the N. by Turkestan, on the E. by China, on the W. by Kashmir and Ladak, and on the S. by India, Nepal and Bhutan. It has an area of over 1,000,000 sq. m., and an estimated population of about 3,000,000, being very sparsely inhabited.

• Based on the 11th Edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica (pub. 1911)

Origin of Name

"The Tibetans call their country Bod, which (For the northern part, see China) Scale, 1:9.500.000 0 Railways Longitude East 85 of Greenwich word in colloquial pronunciation is aspirated into Bhod or Bhot, and in the modern Lhasa dialect is curtailed into Bho. Hence the country is known to Indians as Bhot, and the inhabitants as Bhot-ias. This territory came to be known to Europeans as " Tibet " evidently because the great plateau with its uplands bordering the frontiers of China, Mongolia and Kashmir, through which travellers communicated with this country, is called by the natives T o-bhot (written stod-bod) or " High Bod" or " Tibet," which designation in the loose orthography of travellers assumed a variety of forms. Thus in Chinese annals are found T'u-bat (5th century, A.D.), Tu-po-te, Tie-bu-te, T'u-bo-te (loth and firth centuries) and at the present day T'u-fan (fan, as Bushell shows, being the same. Chinese character which had formerly the sound of po); in Mongolian, Ti%bet, Tobot; in Arabic, Tubbet; Istakhri (c. 590), Tobbat; Rabbi Benjamin (1165), Thibet; J. de Plano Carpirti (1247), Thabet; Rubruquis (12J3), Marco Polo (1298), Tebet; Ibn Batuta (1340), Thabat; Ibn Haukal (976), Al Biruni (1020), Odoric of Pordenone (c. 1328), Orazio della Penna (1730), Tibet, which is the form now generally adopted. The inhabitants of Tibet call themselves Bod-pa (pronounced usually Bho-pa), or " people of Bod." Other Tibetan epithets for the country sometimes used by flowery native writers are " The Icy Land " (Gangs-c'an) and the " Country of the Red Faces " (Gdong-mar-gyi yul). The Chinese name for central Tibet is Wei-Ts'ang, which is a transcription of the Tibetan designation of the two, provinces V and Tsang (spelt dbus-gtsang) that constitute central Tibet. Among the Mongols, Tibetans are called Tangutu and the country Barontala or the " right side," in contradistinction to Dzontala or " left side," which was their own name for Mongolia itself." http://www.1911encyclopedia.org/Tibet Ubuibiok (talk) 15:37, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

'Tibetan Society' Section Needed

Here, we can discuss traditional social structure/organization, marriage customs, impact of land distribution, etc. Kelsangk (talk) 17:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Tibet history edits

Dear User:Blofeld of SPECTRE Thank you for your comments on my Talk page. I am so sorry that I have upset you with my edits on Tibet. I knew this was going to be a most difficult (and controversial) job and that I had very limited time to do it in. I was so upset that having the two articles each with very large sections on Tibetan history was leading to contradictions, confusion and far too much duplication leading to an inability for readers to follow all the additions and POV aguments which were being added to each. It really was a confusing jumble and, I judged, made it impossible for ordinary readers to get any sort of coherent picture of Tibetan history. It seemed important to me to have the vast bulk of the historical discussions available in one place where the contradictions and unnecessarily long-winded duplications would become more immediately obvious and, therefore, more easily corrected.

One of the main problems has been that it all has taken much longer than I thought - so I hadn't got back to rewriting a much more concise history section before others started working on it.

When I first copied out the history section alone of the Tibet article it filled 15 full A4 pages in Word and was a tangled mess of some excellent material mixed up with numerous contradictions and repetitions and poorly referenced POVs. I tried unsuccessfully to straighten it out and then decided the only thing to do was to remove it entirely and try my best to merge it into the History of Tibet article before coming back to write an historical précis for the main Tibet page (something I never got back to do).

I am very sorry it has not worked out as well as I had hoped and now I have to ask others to help get both articles back up to speed again. I hope, though, that the exercise has not been totally in vain. It should, at least, be easier now to see what needs to be done. I hope so.

BTW I haven't (recently anyway) edited any other sections of the Tibet article - so I'm not responsible for the state of the Intro or other sections. I agree they need a lot more work. Apologies for all the hassles. Best wishes, John Hill (talk) 23:03, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

A couple of references below for the history of Tibet

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJY1eK9jQ28&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fruuxoDQpSc&feature=related —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.157.234.106 (talk) 00:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

citation needed

Dear User:Blofeld of SPECTRE, Hi, Thank you for your attention in consideration, and Have a Better Day.

"This was never recognized by the Chinese who claim that Tibet never had a rigid territorial border or political authority." citation needed and a selection of a China referance, Empire, ROC or PRC ??? ***There are Empire and other sorce referances to border markers. UBUIBIOK@GMAIL.com Ubuibiok (talk) 06:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

citi added

Lhasa, holest city, First Buddhist Temple, Jokhang Temple, The Tsulag Khang or 'House of Wisdom'but it is now known as the Jokhang which means the 'House of the Lord'. For most Tibetans it is the most sacred and important temple in Tibet http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jokhang - 1st Buddest Temple http://www.samsays.com/Lhasa.htm -Jokhang Temple is the spiritual center of Tibet http://travel.latimes.com/articles/la-tr-tibetmain19aug19 -Lhasa's holiest shrine http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&as_qdr=all&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=Lhasa+holiest+city&spell=1 - Google Search, "Lhasa holiest city" Personalized Results 1 - 100 of about 24,200 for Lhasa holiest city. (0.41 seconds) http://www.railsnw.com/tours/china/shangri_la/shangri-la-express-lhasa--3-gorges-hong-kong-tour01.htm - traditional seat of the Dalai Lama and the holiest centre of Tibet Ubuibiok (talk) 02:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Feudalism and Slavery, NPOV is not presented in this article

Before Chinese Government crackdown, occupy, reclaim, invade (which ever you prefer), Tibet was ruled by feudalism and with slavery in practice. Religion conflict was commonplace. The old Tibet was more like Europe during the religious wars of Counterreformation.

This article so far has not been able to provide a NPOV, no slavery usage has been mentioned at all, and the rather feudalism rule by the Lamas are not mentioned either. I will contest the NPOV of this article until sections of such topics are added.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Foxhunt99 (talk • contribs) 17:59, 15 May 2008 (UTC)♦Tangerines♦·Talk 17:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It would help if you signed your comments.♦Tangerines♦·Talk 17:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

For fairness, I propose you also tag China, as it seems to lack any mention of footbinding. Yaan (talk) 17:20, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

How can we talk about Tibet history without even mentioning what system it used? Not mentioning slavery is like teaching American hisotry and skipping the slavery part. Foxhunt99 (talk) 17:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

You don't have bound feet, have you? More seriously, I think many articles on European countries don't mention serfdom either. But generally I think it's more useful to simply add what you think is missing, instead of just putting up tags. And for history, check History of Tibet. Regards, Yaan (talk) 18:38, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Simply add what I think is missing doesn't work, other people will just revert it. There are people on wiki who are willing to overlook history. Foxhunt99 (talk) 18:47, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Please add information that is presented in an NPOV fashion, is either noncontroversial or well-sourced, and does not give undue weight to a particular set of facts. If, after you have done so, editors still revert those changes, let's have a discussion on the talk page. Yaan is correct in pointing out that, of the many articles about countries which have previously practised slavery and feudalism, few discuss that subject in detail in the main article (most neglect to mention it at all).—Nat Krause^{(Talk!·What have I done?)} 18:53, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Possible vandalism by Blofeld

User:Blofeld has deleted the whole 'human rights' section of this article WITHOUT DISCUSSING it first. Blofeld, please explain why you did that, and why it should not be considered vandalism. A number of editors had contributed to that section, and it was backed up by many references.

How can you possibly have an article on Tibet without a section on human rights? Especially as it is not covered by a separate article. If you don't like what was there, then add to it or edit it, don't just delete the whole thing. Logicman1966 (talk) 00:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

• Blofeld of SPECTRE restored an old version of the article and, in the process, removed hundreds of edits that had been made. He then attempted to edit that version and reconstruct the article to reflect the latest versions (without the vandalism and POV), but failed to catch some of the deleted sections. I had to re-remove several duplicate pictures and redo edits I had just made. This is probably what happened to the human rights section. I would advise you propose a change here and let the community discuss it before it's put back in. I'm sure that Blofeld of SPECTRE didn't purposely try to remove this section, it was just an oversight that we can now discuss. Thanks, Cumulus Clouds (talk) 02:53, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi. First of all removing the entire section or adding duplicate photos was entirely accidental I didn't notice that and thanks for adding it. As the founder of WikiProject Tibet I seriously doubt I would ever try to vandalise an article, quite the opposite in fact if you examine what I have actually done for the project and wikipedia. However that human rights section is potentially highly problematic and severely affects the balance and tone of the article. It gives the impression that it is "pro Tibetan" by emphasing the unpleasantries of the Chinese and is likely to be subject to edit wars and trouble with the article in the future. I'm not saying we should ignore human rights issues but writing it neutrally is very difficult to do in the circumstances. As it is it is completely one sided and does absolutely nothing to give China's stance on it. It is referenced but referenced to sources which are going to be pro Tibetan anyway. If we must have a section on it is should be split completely down the middle addressing the concerns of both parties equally and to avoid the notion that "we support Amnesty's concerns" ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ ^$1,000,000? 12:52, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

1954 Chinese Census Report

Someone kept adding the unreferenced claim "questioned by the Chinese (communist) Government" onto the demographics section. In order to support it, you will need the DIRECT reference that shows "Chinese government questioned the demographics research done by Tibetan exile government". The census report published in 1954 is before the Tibetan exile government's research, which was after 1959, hence cannot be used to support the claim "questioned by the Chinese government". --chenyangw (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 15:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Changing "has been questioned by the Chinese government." To "is questionable" Seems no major difference. Foxhunt99 (talk) 17:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

it's not major difference, but if someone wants to claim that Chinese government indeed questioned the Tibetan exile government, they need to show the reference. chenyangw (talk)

it is probably in the best interest of Chinese government to question it. Foxhunt99 (talk) 17:30, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree. but looks like they have not done it yet.chenyangw (talk)

more about human right section

This section is completely presented on one side view. Many of the sources are from pro Tibet website. There needs to be some other NPOV as well. I am sure if you check other non pro Tibet website, you will find different answers. If you want to keep that section present the other side of views. Foxhunt99 (talk) 22:17, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

This section is very biased indeed, needs to be rewritten or removed. Guox0032 (talk) 04:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Just for the record I fully agree and think it should be completely removed until it is written properly. ♦Blofeld of SPECTRE♦ ^$1,000,000? 10:57, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Several things to point out, human right is better than fedual society before 1950s. But not denying there are still problems. However many of the human right problems like freedom of speech does not only exist in Tibet. They can be applied to whole China. Chinese government have a minority policy much like the affirmative action here. For example, the one child policy does not apply to Tibetan, they can have 1-3 children, when Han Chinese can only have 1. The requirement for Tibetan's student's college admission test score is much lower than Han Chinese, the cutoff line for Han Chinese is around 700 but for Tibetans it is 100-150 points lower. Also, the tuition fees for Tibetan students is much less than the Han Chineses', some cases only 1/10 what Han Chinese pay. Furthermore, for some crimes, Tibetan will get lesser sentence compare to Chinese. None of those is pointed out in the human right section. There are probably still plenty things that can be improved, specially in the freedom of speech department.Guox0032 (talk) 04:58, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

These things should only be pointed out if properly referenced. But I've reinserted references to pre-communist serfdom and slavery, I'd appreciate it if no one removed it without discussing it first. Rsazevedo ^msg 12:11, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

People who are removing it, either trying to deny the existence of serfdom or slavery or trying to hide it. One person who removed it (Blnguyen) claims they are "communist book spruiking", that alone shows how narrow minded he is. First of all, there are many historians documented slavery in Tibet, not just communists. Even if some communist authors documented slavery, you can not claim they are fake just becuase they are communist. This is a discrimination just like discrimination against people based on skin color. Guox0032 (talk) 13:20, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Not exactly. Whereas one can adopt and shift through political ideologies in their lifetime, one can never change the color of their skin (unless of course they ink and tattoo it, lol). Slavery or serfdom in Tibet really doesn't surprise me; Buddhist monasteries in premodern China engaged in the same activities. Look to my edits in the "Religion" section of Tang Dynasty.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 17:26, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Serfdom and slavery is part of progression in all societies. Serfdom and Slavery existed in old Tibet shouldn't suprise anyone. What suprising is that the lack of mention, even sometimes deny the existence of it. The Tibetan independents tends to deny the existence of slavery, and protrait Tibet as a heavenly land before Chinese government took over, the Chinese government tends to protrait old Tibet as a feudal society, where people suffer from serfdom and slavery. Both sides are wrong and right, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Foxhunt99 (talk) 17:35, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Don't take any notice of Blnguyen as he is just a vietnamese crook. Blnguyen even tried to deny that vietnamese people are just a bunch of unlawful cannabis farmers and criminals in the UK, Canada and other places, when all reports had been referenced. There is really no need to take notice of someone who is clearly sympathetic to evil criminals just because they are vietnamese and he is vietnamese. Blnguyen is incapable of taking a NPOV, and is probably a part of the vietnamese criminal network anyway. 81.132.63.38 (talk) 00:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Foxhunt99, from what you say, is it not the case that the Tibetan's denial of the existence of slavery and that it was a heavenly land, wrong; and that the PRC Government's portrait of Old Tibet as a feudal society, correct? There is really nothing in the middle as far as the truth is concerned. 81.132.63.38 (talk) 00:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

There's a difference between slavery and serfdom, although a serf doesn't have much more rights than a slave does. If Tibet had serfs before 1959, what percentage of the population was serf and what percentage was fief lord? Surely there was a significant percentage of itinerant salesmen, traveling musicians, lower monks, soldiers, navvies, blacksmiths, artisans, etc. To call it a "serf society" might be misleading if it was a small percentage. I don't doubt that things could be very primitive there even by the 1950s; most people in Bhutan hadn't even seen what a car looked like until the 1970s.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 02:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Serfdom and some slavery was documented by historians and westerners who travel through Tibet. Chinese government usually tried to protrait old Tibet has a brutal serfdom society, but it may not be as brutal as the Chinese government claim. The condition of serfs really varies based on location, landlord etc. As for how many percentage of the population were serfs, Chinese government claimed 90%, but others have claimed 20%, there is no solid data to support either claim.Guox0032 (talk) 02:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• So if it's pure speculation, why is it being included? Cumulus Clouds (talk) 03:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, the fact that it is hard to distinguish anything about the exact level of serfdom in Tibet seems pretty significant for this article. I think the article should mention that there is very little that can be done to assess the shape and scope of serfdom in Tibet before the 1950s, if that truly is the case and verified by credible scholarly sources.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 03:05, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• It just seems self-defeating to me to try to justify inserting this content by adding the caveat that "we have no way of knowing if this is true or not." If we can't determine accurately the disposition of the serfdom in Tibet, why bother putting that material in? Saying something like "In his book, so-and-so wrote that they encountered a serfdom in Tibet, and that the feif lord was such-and-such and had this many serfs on the land" is fine because it doesn't attempt to assert anything beyond what the author saw in the first person. The alternative is to say "Tibet was a serfdom and there were this many serfs per lord and this is the extent to which it was seen in the country" and then try to source that with the same anecdotal evidence. This would be extrapolating far beyond the original narrative in that source and would probably require multiple, reliable and established publications to back it up. At present, we only have the former so we should refrain from putting in anything beyond what we have absolute references for. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 03:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I certainly don't disagree that there should be included a variety of sources used in order to gain a more pluralistic perspective on the case of Tibetan serfdom. That will take quite a while though, since it seems to me (from what I've seen) that many scholars focus almost entirely on Tibetan Buddhism and Sino-Tibetan relations in regards to Tibetology.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 03:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually there are plenty sources by historian indicating serfdom, even slavery. Look up books or writing by those historians or travellers: Tom Grunfeld,

Melvyn Goldstien, Michael Parenti, Gelder, Charles Bell, Tomas Laird. Bell was a traveller to Tibet and friend of 13th Dalai Lama, he recorded some evidence of slavery in Tibet. Also for Tomas Laird, who was in Tibet in the 1950s, he interviewed the 14th Dalai Lama, even the 14th Dalai Lama used the word "serf" sometimes. I can point you to the exact page of the book if you want. Foxhunt99 (talk) 15:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The discussion here is about current Human Rights in Tibet, not about historical serfdom. As I mentioned a while ago, I am the person who created the Human Rights section in this article. Yes I knew that it would be controversial, but it's essential that the subject be covered. We cannot avoid it just because it's difficult to do. I tried to use a variety of sources, all of which say essentially the same thing. It is WRONG to say that the section was biased or one-sided. Human rights abuses in Tibet are a fact, and the supporting evidence is irrefutable. I will repeat my challenge to everybody - if you can find any reliable sources that contradict the statements made in the section then add them, otherwise quit whining about bias. The whole section was recently deleted (by accident) by Blofeld, I will clean it up a bit and then re-insert it into the article. Logicman1966 (talk) 03:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I think you have only tried pro-Tibet independent websites.

http://www.savetibet.org, http://www.tibetjustice.org http://www.tew.org Tibet Environmental Watch etc

You might want to take a look at some other websites, I am sure there are some. www.anti-cnn.com has some information, hard evidence on how biased western media reported on the Tibet riot earlier this year. One of the most disturbing things was using a picture where a Nepal police beating up a Lama to report Chinese crack down on Tibetan riot. It doesn't directly show how good or bad the human rights in Tibet is, however, it does show plenty bias within the western media. Many of what your sources say could be true, there is really no way to disprove it. However, I do question if there is any fictional or exaggerated parts. Plus human rights problem has been a problem for the whole China, many of the human rights violation mentioned here, can be applied to other parts of China as well, but this article is making it sounds like only Tibet is suffering from human rights problems.

You should really look up China's minority affirmative action. Being a minority actually post great advantages. Like other people have pointed out, many times, even being half or 1/4 minority, will grant you amazing advantages over Han Chinese. Many people actually seeking minority status for those benefits, such as right to have more than 1 child, lower tuition fees, etc.

I have personally lived among Tibetans for four years, I can honestly say, if I was a Tibetan, or even half Tibetan, I would have went to a better school and saved thousands on tuition. And another thing I would like to say, you might not want to believe me, majority of the Tibetan people, at least from the Tibetan people I have met and talked to, they don't want independence or just don't care. Most of them are just like average citizens, who wants a peaceful life. I really hope many people can travel to Tibet to see Tibet in person. It is a great land with great people and culture. Easymem (talk) 15:42, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• This article isn't about Chinese Affirmative Action or about human rights abuses in the People's Republic of China. It's about the country of Tibet and the section about human rights abuses should only details those suffered by those living in Tibet. This is also not the forum for you to complain about the bias of Western media towards the Chinese government. If you attempt to insert any of that into the article I will revert it immediately. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 15:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

If we want to talk about human rights, when is affirmative action not about human rights. American's affirmative action is about human rights, so is the Chinese one. Easymem (talk) 18:14, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• That doesn't make any sense. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 18:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok let me make it clear. One Child Policy in China has been attacked by human rights group for awhile. But Tibetan is exempted from it. This is definitely about human rights. As for other parts of China's affirmative action/minority policy, like education and employment, they can be considered more like civil rights maybe. The United Nations Human Rights Committee states, "the principle of equality sometimes requires States parties to take affirmative action in order to diminish or eliminate conditions which cause or help to perpetuate discrimination prohibited by the Covenant. Easymem (talk) 19:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• If Tibet is exempt, it wouldn't need to be included would it? Cumulus Clouds (talk) 19:22, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Then this section should be named as Human Rights Problems, instead just Human Rights. Easymem (talk) 20:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• No it shouldn't, since China's affirmative action policy isn't a problem in Tibet. Also it would be very helpful if you would quit shifting between your accounts so the discussion doesn't appear so incohesive. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 20:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I was not talking about affirmative action policy anymore, I was talking about a more appropriated title. And stop your baseless personal attacks.Easymem (talk) 20:55, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

• Alright, well, "Human Rights Problems" is in no way a better title than "Human Rights." Cumulus Clouds (talk) 22:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Name

I think the Chinese 'Xi Zang' could be better translated as 'The Hidden West'. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.132.63.38 (talk • contribs) 13:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with Image:DalaiLama-13 lg.jpg

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Statistics

Chenyangw, please do not use terms such as "questionable" in the text; it assumes an opinion, and Wikipedia should be neutral. When you say something is questionable, you are inserting your point of view in the article. Questioned by whom?

And please do not engage in more edit wars, you have already been blocked once for this reason, and have been investigated on the suspicion of being someone else's sock puppet. Please behave yourself, be civil. Rsazevedo ^msg 22:49, 23 May 2008 (UTC)\

First, do you read Chinese at all? If you are able to read the 1954 census report, it is obvious the Tibetan exile government misquoted, if not lied deliberately, on their tibet.com website. The number of Tibetans they claimed to be living in Tibet and Kham are EXACTLY the same, not one more, not one less, as the total number of people living in Tibet and Khan as in 1954 census report. For the case of Qinghai, 1954 census report said the total population of Qinghai was 1,675,534 and the total population of Gansu was 12,928,102; and tibet.com claimed there were 1,675,534 Tibetans in Qinghai and Gansu altogether. If tibet.com played the #tibetan = total population trick on Gansu again, they will find that the total number of Tibetans will be 19M, why too high. It is then quite obvious why you do not see Qinghai and Gansu numbers separately. The word 'questionable' is already being mild. This cook-up demographics data from tibet.com should be removed entirely. BTW, Rsazevedo, do I need to remind you that you were blocked for 3RR as well in that 'block' incidence you mentioned, in which you kept on adding the unreferenced claim? You promised not to did the undiscussed edit and yet you did it again right here! chenyangw

• Sorry, but we're not going to take you at your word for the literal translation of the Chinese census report. If you find an english language equivalent (and reliable) source which says what you're saying now, it can be included, otherwise it's your own subjective original research and will not be included. 3RR is not a hard and fast rule and if you continue to game the system by undoing those changes 2 and 3 times just under the 24 hour limit, you will be blocked again, but for longer. My recommendation is that you stop trying to insert your bias into this article and find something more constructive to spend your time on. Cumulus Clouds (talk) 19:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Serfdom in Tibet at AFD

Editors are needed to help salvage this article. It's being nominated for deletion as a supposed fringe theory. Please help add sources and improve the article and weigh in at the deletion discussion.--Gimme danger (talk) 16:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

• In Lhasa The Open City Published in 1977, printed in Great Britain by the Trinity Press, Worcester, and London, on page 51 "Freehold land to individual farmers was almost unheard of; everyone belonged to 'a master', and cultivated land held from 'a master'. It did happen that serfs ran away and became 'black people' - duichuns - to escape debt and being sold as slaves, and settled on unused land, but pretty soon they would again fall under a 'master' who could sell them, use their service, exact corvee..." ISBN 30081001265309. Or check your University Asia history text books. Centrallib (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)