Titanic is a former featured article. Please see the links under Article milestones below for its original nomination page (for older articles, check the nomination archive) and why it was removed.
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Belfast, an attempt to build a comprehensive and detailed guide to the City of Belfast, Northern Ireland on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, you can edit the article attached to this page, or visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.BelfastWikipedia:WikiProject BelfastTemplate:WikiProject BelfastBelfast-related articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Disaster management, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of Disaster management on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Disaster managementWikipedia:WikiProject Disaster managementTemplate:WikiProject Disaster managementDisaster management articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Shipwrecks, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of shipwreck-related articles on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.ShipwrecksWikipedia:WikiProject ShipwrecksTemplate:WikiProject ShipwrecksShipwreck articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Irish Maritime, a collaborative effort to improve and standardise the content and structure of maritime, seafaring and inland waterways articles associated with the island of Ireland. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks.Irish MaritimeWikipedia:WikiProject Irish MaritimeTemplate:WikiProject Irish MaritimeIrish Maritime articles
This article is within the scope of WikiProject Ships, a project to improve all Ship-related articles. If you would like to help improve this and other articles, please join the project, or contribute to the project discussion. All interested editors are welcome. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.ShipsWikipedia:WikiProject ShipsTemplate:WikiProject ShipsShips articles
It belongs
(a) somewhere else in the article and
(b) needs to be referenced.
'An additional problem with the Titanic's design was the ship's incredible length. Smaller ships would be able to ride oceanic waves; however, the Titanic was simply too long to ride up and down with large waves. The engineers who designed the Titanic created a large flexible joint in the middle of the ship to allow the ship to flex with the waves and prevent the ship from searing if the middle was caught in the valley between a pair of large waves. However, the design of the Titanic's flexing joint was not ideal; rather than a ball shaped joint found in a later version of equally long ships, the Titanic's seems to be more abrupt and unable to deal with the massive amount of pressure that it wouldn've had to endure for days. As a result, experts say, the ship's massive bulk folded it in half, shattering the bottom off from the rest of the hull and sealing the fate of the massive ocean liner. '
'This theory has been shown in recent deep sea dives that have recorded the shape of two of the recently found parts of the ship's bottom, which are believed to account for about 70 feet of the bottom of the hull, the spot where the ship shattered. These peices, far to the east of the bulk of the hull, indicate that the parts broke free of the rest of the ship before the bow and the stern had fully filled with water. All of this information was revealed in a series of recent dives done by the History Channel, and more is being discovered almost every week.'
When clock times are given for events happening at sea, what time zone is being used? Is this local solar time, or, as I suspect, local time for the time zone that applies at that longitude? They thought they were at 50 degrees, 14 minutes west, which would put them on Greenland Standard Time, aka Poppa Standard Time, three hours behind GMT. The only hitch is, this naval system was not effected until the 1920s, so what did ships use in 1912? Titanic was making a crossing in approximately five or six days, so if they made each day 25 hours long, they would, more or less, be on New York time by the time they arrived in New York; simply add an hour in the middle of the night, say at 1 am, go back to midnight, and do that for five days. If that's the way they did it, and I'm not saying it is, then by the evening they met the iceberg, they would have done it four times, and would be on Atlantic Standard Time. GBC (talk) 02:29, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
In 1912, and for many years after that, it was the convention on ships to keep "apparent time". This was indeed local solar time - where 'Noon' - or twelve o' clock midday - was taken to be that point where the Sun reached it's maximum altitude in the sky where it was either due south or due north of the ship.
As noted above, this time varied with ship's longitude. Consequently, ships'navigators estimated where they would be at Noon on the following day and adjusted the ship's clocks overnight, so that the Sun would be at it's maximum altitude at about the time of 'Noon' on the following day. It was the usual thing for the clocks to be altered the requisite number of minutes during the midnight to 4 A.M. watch and this was duly recorded as the official time change in the deck and engine room log books.
To keep things amicable among the different watchkeepers on ships it was customary to sub-divide the total number of minutes of clock change evenly between the watches. For example if a ship's clocks were to be retarded thirty minutes on a particular night and the watchkeeping on that ship was from 8 to 12 followed by 12 to 4 and then 4 to 8 - it would be usual for the watchkeepers on each watch to do an extra ten minutes watchkeeping.
Of course, all these time changes were specific to individual ships and one consequence was that ships in the same general area could be maintaining different times for recording events. Co-ordinating the different ship times to establish precise times for the various events was one of the larger difficulties for both of the Titanic enquiries. sgn. Jim Fowler
Okay, that's very helpful, thanks. Now, did any of the surviving officers recall how many minutes total the Titanic's clock was retarded since they left port, so we know the difference between GMT and the ship's clock when disaster hit? Needless to say, nobody would bother changing the clock time again in the middle of a red alert situation - the clocks'll be at the bottom of the ocean before sunrise, regardless of the time zone they're on. GBC (talk) 03:36, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
They could not have altered the clocks during the emergency as they would have had no idea where they were going to be at noon the next day. If the above description of 1912 ship's timekeeping is true (and I do not doubt it) it would have represented a total nightmare for everyone on board. It might have been eased a little by the scarcity of personal timepieces, but I can't see how anyone would have ever known what time it was. Calculating the day's run would have been problematic too, as a day might be e.g. 23 hours 17 minutes one day, and 23 hours 21 minutes the next. And no calculators! Rumiton (talk) 15:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Titanic vs. TheTitanic
This is a totally minor point, but it's the sort of thing I latch onto and I'd be interested in seeing it discussed, however briefly.
In my recollection, the ship was generally--even consistently--referred to as the Titanic, and it was only after that dreadful film that it became commonplace, or even standard, to call is simply Titanic. It reminds me of all of the classical music records that were repackaged as being from Wolfgang AMADEUS Motzart (sometimes with the middle name in fact in all caps) after the release of Amadeus. How much of this switch reflects legitimate practice and how much was bandwagon-hopping by people trying to align themselves in any way with the movie? PurpleChez (talk) 14:41, 15 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The usage is naval, not necessarily cinematic. Merchant ships are normally THE, so RMS Queen Mary should be the THE Queen Mary. HMS Ulysses is simply Ulysses. As a merchant vessel commanded by a naval reservist, the Titanic could be either. Though as a certified nit-picking nautical pedant, I would always say The Titanic. Rumiton (talk) 10:09, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you looked on the side of the ship (before rusticles covered it) then you would see the single name Titanic. A bathroom facility would have a shower, would you say "I'm going to use shower now"? "The" has nothing to do with the name unless that's what the creator/inventor calls it. Seeing as the inventer called the ship Titanic that means that is what the ship should be called. It's a general way of saying things to use the word "The". Jammy (talk) 18:40, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Gender pronouns: "she" v. "it", etc.
An editor today changed all occurrences of the gender pronouns such as "she" to their corresponding neuter pronounce (e.g., "it," etc.). The change was reverted, which I agree with. Just to back up the reversion a bit, I note that there is a style guide that suggests not to make such changes. WP:MILMOS#Pronouns says:
Ships may be referred to either using female pronouns ("she", "her") or genderless pronouns ("it", "its"). Either usage is acceptable, but each article should be internally consistent and employ one or the other exclusively. As with all optional styles, articles should not be changed from one style to another unless there is a substantial reason to do so.
The scope of this guideline is for articles in the scope of the Military History project, which this article is not; but the idea behind it is equally applicable yo civilian ships as to military ones. TJRC (talk) 19:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the use of female pronouns is appropriate for all ships, not just military vessels. The use of female pronouns for referring to ships in the english language dates back many centuries - there's a long established precedent for doing this.
I've suggested at WP:SHIPS that the project formally adopt the WP:MILMOS guideline for all ships, to help clarify that the guideline quoted above is not just in reference to military vessels. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 19:42, 16 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the feminine gender for ships. It appears that most machines inherit a feminine gender. Steam engines have been traditionally treated as feminine. Paul Anderson (talk) 05:06, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi all. I just wanted to clear up the cause of the incident involving the New York which was drawn into the Titanic's side. Quite often the propellers are given the blame for this. Wrong. The ship's massive displacement in parallel to the smaller New York is what drew the New York into the Titanic's side. The propellers on the Titanic are of course at the stern of the ship. The stern of the Titanic hadn't passed the New York yet. The New York was drawn in amidships of the Titanic. So I made the change in the text for historical accuracy and for academics. Thanks Koplimek (talk) 22:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, but what caused the suction? propellers don't just make water, they suck water from in front the propeller and push it away behind. As the bow passes, smaller objects will be pushed away by the bow wave, behind an unpowered vessel (eg when it is being pulled by a tug) objects will be sucked in to fill the void. Alongside a powered vessel, the propellers draw water in toward the ship. IdreamofJeanie (talk) 09:21, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The interactions between large vessels are complex and even today imperfectly understood, though this case seems fairly simple. Interactive forces are different between vessels in deep water and at speed and between slow vessels in shallow water. Koplimek is right to say the propellers had little or nothing to do with this collision. The largest factor would certainly be the flow of water along the side of the hull of the moving vessel, from forward to aft, in the shallow and confined water of the dock. The higher the water speed the lower the pressure, just as an airplane wing creates lift when the air passing over it is faster than that going under it. The two hulls would have been "sucked" together as Titanic passed. Rumiton (talk) 13:45, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That's as maybe, I was commenting on Koplimek's blanket statement that the propellers can't affect the water in front of them. His statememt reads like OR, and I replied in kind. What do the published sources say? lets stick to them.IdreamofJeanie (talk) 15:58, 25 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Published sources give every possible opinion on this and every other aspect of Titanic. It's in the nature of this subject. We can't stick to all of them, we have to choose among them intelligently if this article is to be coherent. OR or no OR. Rumiton (talk) 12:20, 26 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
This section refers to "18th Century steel sailing vessels." As there were none, and the whole section sounds dubious, I propose deleting it. Rumiton (talk) 13:23, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That does sound kind of odd. I don't know enough about shipbuilding to substantively edit that section, but I at least did correct the quoting. It's from the Titanic Historical Society's website. They have the length of the vessel wrong, too. With two significant errors in one paragraph, as much as I hate to suggest it, perhaps the THS is not a reliable source. TJRC (talk) 15:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I'm of the opinion that more information should be written on the wreck. The article doesn't seem to cover much about that at all. Like images of the overall wreck if possible. More detail on just how bad a shape the stern is (I honestly can't recognize any deck above B-deck anymore). I also think some citations around the sinking would be nice. Just my opinion. Also, it seems a bit odd, but when looking and images of the bow wreck, it looks shorter than it should. Also, is it typical for a ship to split in two when sinking? I mean, if ships sink because of damage, it makes sense. Like the Britannic is nearly also divided into a bow section and stern section. SkepticBanner (talk) 22:55, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It's not uncommon that that happens. It can happen where there has been flooding in the fore or after part of a ship, as opposed to across the entire length of the ship. The damaged and flooding part of the ship begins to sink below the waterline. The undamaged half remains more buoyant, at least whilst flooding takes longer to spread further back along the ship. This is then lifted relative to sinking section. In the Titanic's case the flooding was trapped in the forepart of the ship by the watertight doors, with progressive flooding only reaching the after compartments slowly and in stages. The mass of a ship is intended to be supported by the water, but as the stern rose, the gravitational pull of the weight of some twenty thousand tons created huge stresses on the mid section, the axis around which the sinking ship was rotating. The midline on the keel is also the point where the stresses are greatest from the mass of the ship, ie equally balanced with twenty thousand tons on either side. The more of the stern that was hanging unsupported, the greater this stress became until the keel gave way and the ship tore herself in two. The stern then collapsed back onto the water surface, with the forepart of the ship hanging submerged beneath but still attached. The stern part resumed flooding until its buoyancy was exhausted and it too sank. The Titanic's design and the nature of the accident made this a more classic case than most, the water entry was to a small section localised at the bow, whilst the watertight compartments meant that the foreparts flooded almost entirely whilst the afterparts remained unaffected for far longer. This is the cause of all those classic pictures of the stern hanging high in the air, the rest of the ship completely submerged. I'm not entirely sure what you mean about the bow wreck though. Benea (talk) 23:44, 28 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am in a minority here. Several passengers testified that the Titanic broke in half early in the evening, while still close to even keel. They were contradicted by the ship's officers, who were believed. Photos of the wreck show that the split started at the keel, not the upper deck. This is consistent with the passengers' accounts. When the forward third of the vessel filled up, leaving the forepeak and focsle temporarily dry, the effect was the same as overloading the midship section of a bulk carrier. Hull failure. I believe the dramatic stern "rearing up" images are exaggerated. The stern section just duckdived at the last minute, the bow was already long on the bottom. This also explains the horizontal separation of the two sections. During the time between the sinkings, ocean currents took the floating part a few hundred metres away from the debris already on the seabed. Rumiton (talk) 10:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
When I say the bow looks shorter, I mean I can only see up until the second funnel hole. After that, it is twisted metal for a short bit then ends. As for the stern section, I can only see up to the fourth funnel hole. It's like a middle part of the ship disappeared without a trace. Also, is "explosion" the right word to describe what happened to the stern of the Titanic? It is my understanding that the only way it could have sunk quickly after the bow did was if made, since it was so filled with air. It's no easy task pushing something so full of air in a complicated design two miles down. The air would have to at least partially leave the stern. But as we all know, it didn't, as what's left of the stern will testify. The stern is in pretty bad shape. I mean, both sides of the hull have been blown off. One half leans on the edge of the ship, the other fell down to the sea floor right next to it. Large sections of the decks blown off are now part of the debris field. No decks above B-deck can be easily seen. The poop deck is peeled back. As for the bow, all the decks are clearly visible, the hull is mostly intact except in some areas where it bent and buckled because of the hull bending backwards and the back of the bow where it split from the stern. Also, while it may be common enough for sinking ships to split in two, is it that common for sinking ships to go completely down in the bow, have its stern rise up into the air, split in two, have the bow sink and the stern go to a what, 20˚ angle, then sink under, have its hull structure catastrophically fail because of water pressure, and land in a barely recognizable state almost 2,000 feet away form its bow? Also, it the stern is a lot more than a couple hundred meters from the bow. More than 500, which is more than a couple. But as I've said before, I feel it is important that we somehow give some easy to understand, detailed, information on the wreck. Both parts of it. I mean, very little is said about it. And since the ship is still around (in a sense), we should give details on how things are going for it currently, right? Well, that's all I have to say for now. SkepticBanner (talk) 03:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The inference is that the middle section, being the section where the break occurred, either became part of the debris field after the sinking, or has since disintegrated through the passage of time. The structural integrity of this part of the ship was one of the most affected, so it would be expected that this would suffer the greatest decay and collapse. The bow filled with water slowly, and only sank after being more or less completely filled (the stern keeping the rest afloat as this happened) so the effects of air pressure were a lot less destructive than that experienced by the stern which sank quickly. The result as you've noted is that the stern is partially blown out. The air did leave the stern to some degree, in order for its buoyancy to be exhausted and for it to sink in the first place, but enough was left to cause the damage visible when the wreck was located. Witnesses reported that it floated for a while (steadily flooding), but then sank quickly (i.e. once the point where the buoyancy was exhausted and the weight of the stern exceeded the displacement the air trapped inside was providing.) Also every shipwreck is unique, a combination of the cause of water ingress/hull failure/etc and the design of the ship. Titanic's loss was predictable if you factor in what happens to her, i.e. water ingress to localised section of the bow across a number of watertight compartments causing uncontrollable flooding. The steady sinking of the bow and the water tipping over the tops of the watertight bulkheads to flood further back along the structure causing the stern to rise. Is it common? The answer is it would happen more or less every time a ship with Titanic's specific design met with a similar ingress of water, but slightly change one factor and you'll likely get a slightly different result. The interesting thing to consider is if the keel had been strong enough, would an equilibrium have been reached where the angle of the partially submerged ship would have meant that the water would have only been able to flood up to a certain part, whilst the buoyancy of the stern would have kept the ship afloat in this rather tenuous position? The argument is that if it had been stronger, Titanic would have floated for longer, rescue ships could have reached the scene in time to take people off from the stricken liner and more people would have been saved. See below where there are claims that fatal hull weaknesses caused a break at just 10 degrees elevation. The distance of the stern from the bow is also not unusual when you factor in the distance the sections had to fall, the differing times that they sank and the effect of the currents, as well as the different hydrodynamic features of the two sections. It would have been more surprising to find them more or less together on the sea bed. Feel free to add away as to the current state of the wreck, I agree the article could use a description. Later dives have highlighted just how fast the wreck is deteriorating, so it is quite relevant. Benea (talk) 10:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I could be wrong, but it is my understanding that humans in the past 23 years have done a huge amount of damage to it. Is the rate of human damage greater or less than that of natural decay? Out of curiosity, what would have happened if the "watertight" doors had not been closed? As for adding information on the wreck, I'm not entirely sure where to find it. All of my books about it are roughly a decade out of date. Also, information on the damage to the stern I find so interesting is difficult to find. Any ideas where to look? Also, I'm not sure how to organize information on the wreck. Do we describe how it ended up like it is today? What specific parts are like? What time has done to it? Also, which section do we describe first? A lot of complicated questions. Although, the majority of information and research is from the bow, as the stern hasn't much to offer in its current state. Well, it has some, but not as much as the bow. SkepticBanner (talk) 02:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
co-founder
I have never heard of Jean-Louis Michel. I saw his page and it hardly has anything on it. Please put a link on him or something or I will erase his name. Thanks. Gregory E. Miller (talk) 23:15, 1 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Why are you going to erase his name? He and Ballard discovered the wreck, it's quite legitimate information to include. Just because a) you have never heard of him and b) he does not currently have his own article is no reason to erase him. Benea (talk) 00:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome to add any sourced additions if you feel they will be useful. But I wouldn't really expect anyone would do it for you. This page has been tagged as needing work for quite some time already. Benea (talk) 00:29, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To me 45 is too literal. I looked at alot of testimony and found the man said no more then 45. Others say the opposite, 45 or more. Also he never said it was almost perpendicular, he only corrected his statment from meaning just that. Considerably is apart of no more then 45 degrees actually and therefore a diagonal angle is the peek. Also the untrained eye would seen 45 as 70, so 20 or a little over could be seen as that 45 degree to people.BobtheVila
The man, I forgot the name, but look at the more questions then answers by googling titanic break up and you can find the witness's name. Also look at what he says and you can get what I mean. Everyone else says the opposite of what he's trying to say.BobtheVila —Preceding comment was added at 16:29, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, as to your original point the exact angle is indeed disputed. 45 degrees or thereabouts was commonly accepted, but researchers have more recently claimed that the angle was just 10 degrees (see hereor here for reports on this, and that the design and construction of the Titanic was therefore seriously flawed. But its still a contentious point. Benea (talk) 16:34, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To me the 10 degree is too low, I written a paper about it and I will show you if you want to see it later, but now I have to go somewhere.BobtheVila —Preceding comment was added at 16:39, 5 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Bob, I think it would be interesting if I could understand it. Your English is defeating me. What do you mean by "grounding," "stiff boat" and "dome water" for a start? And is this your own research or a published theory? Rumiton (talk) 15:12, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Actually it is quickly typed, sorry. Stiff boat means without bend, I never seen any test without that, dome water is a "duh" actually, just water coming from the dome. Grounding is talking about just adding it to the equation of tests(#4 and #5 fliped). It's not realy importent about publishment, I just found many faults with the 3 versions from park/roger/roy. It is not published, but I looked at testimony on sites and looked through ANTR and other. I wan't to show that the untrained eye did exist and none took a devise to measure the angle during sinking. Also that theyer's drawn version of the boat already shows the angle at half 45 and lower also when it broke. I have mild autism basically, but I wrote the real one on a word and is better with grammer and stuff, this stuff isn't even word for word of it, it's retyped.BobtheVila —Preceding comment was added at 12:28, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It should now be a save to a zip file, tell me if it doen't work and i'll find another file site. No I'm not, but I took all the main points of the testimonies and got the answer from that, also I did it based on the on board testimony's notice of the break. I think I have come with similar answer as one though as one. Also I have seen alot of boats sink on the internet though and know how boats sink, so I think it's impossible for the really high angles unless it's going under. The break comes from double bottem's cleanliness, lack of notice of the righting, and Joughin. I have a habbit of writing stuff I have interest in.BobtheVila —Preceding comment was added at 15:22, 13 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
BTW it's a zip file, not a site, the internet was gone, so I wrote it in word till we get it again. Also I just put it in a shared folder for publicBobtheVila
Thanks for that. I don't have all the figures with me but I still disagree, to summarize: One of the passengers described and sketched the ship breaking in two early in the disaster, at quite a small angle of head trim. This is right, I think. The ship would have been sailing with about 5 feet of stern trim for maximum speed, and not loaded to her marks (Loadline). Thus, the forward bulkead top would have been far higher above the sea than has been assumed by investigators. Before water flowed over the forward bulkhead several thousands of tonnes would have entered the hull. It was like overloading a bulk carrier. Filling one hatch with the others empty creates a catastrophic bending moment and shearing forces. This is not a reflection on the ship design. After that the passengers watched the stern section filling and sinking. Rumiton (talk) 13:10, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
That person was Jack, there are only 2 pics and the other is one at 5-6degrees with rockets going off, the boat in the pic resembles the test's 17+ mark, and they don't include any upper or grounding water damage. 10 degrees and starting the plunge is rediculous as people where running to the back just then. 20 or more is best as Arthur states it was intact then.BobtheVila —Preceding comment was added at 15:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
"Further Reading" Correction
The author of "What really sank the Titanic..." is McCarty, not McCarthy.
the titanic struck an ice burge. people say that there could of been more lifeboats but there wernt
Visualize the Size
This is pretty good article. The one thing it's missing is help with visualizing the ship's size. She was the biggest ship of her period, after all. One of those pictures where various ship images are superimposed would be great.
Why has it been removed from the first line that the RMS Titanic was a “British” ship? When it clearly was a British ship?
I sense some very sad anti-British Pro American editing on an article about a British ship. (Butters x (talk) 17:12, 11 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]
Uh uh, it is the result of sad, mixed up Irish emotions. There was a big controversy about whether the ship should be described as British- or Irish-built. Thoroughly worth not getting involved with. Rumiton (talk) 14:51, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If you really want to get technical, the Titanic was Irish built, British flagged, and American owned. Even though the ship was built in Ireland and the ship was owned by American owned British company, the ship flew the British flag so it should be called British. A good modern example is the RMS Queen Mary 2, which was built in France, is owned by the American owned British shipping company Cunard, and it flies the British flag because it is registered in Britain. A ship's country of registry is it's country of origin, sort of like citizenship and people. Daniel Chiswick (talk) 21:25, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It gets even more technical than that. It was British-built, there was no country called Ireland in 1912. The subject is better left alone, I think. Rumiton (talk) 11:30, 14 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Just put "Titanic was a British/Irish ship" Or, "Titanic was an Irish-made British ship, or something like that. Something that will contribute both Gregory E. Miller (talk) 21:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC))[reply]
The point is that at the time there was no independent Republic of Ireland. The geographical area that now forms the independent nation was part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland in 1912, and would be described as 'British'. So the phrase 'Irish-made British ship' just doesn't make sense. 'British/Irish ship' would also not be a desirable solution for the same reason, but also see the Derry/Londonderry and the whole 'Stroke City' controversy for that one. Benea (talk) 22:06, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We do what the Irish themselves do and steer clear of controversy wherever possible. Leave it as it is, and avoid making a claim for either British or Irish ownership so far as possible. Benea (talk) 22:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We've largely reached a stage where we have eliminated any points of controversy. When referring to where she was built we say Belfast, Ireland. Ireland is a geographical rather than a political term, and makes no judgement about being politically British or Irish. Similarly if we talk about her registry, we can say that that was British as that is factually accurate and indisputable, and so on. The key point to be aware of is not to make a sweeping statement like 'she was an Irish ship' or 'she was a British ship', but to be careful to qualify it accurately. So use 'she was a British registered ship, built in Belfast, Ireland' - which is factually accurate, and minimises claims of nationalistic bias. The page should be kept like this, and attempts to swing this unduly to a nationalistic claim, whether British or Irish, should probably be reverted and if a dispute develops, participants invited to a discussion here on the talkpage. Benea (talk) 22:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The photo on the Titanic page with the caption "view of the stern & rudder of the Titanic in drydock" is of the Olympic, back in drydock to repair the Hawke damage. She is also in White Star livery(paint job). I've changed the caption on the pick several times so that it would be accurate giving awareness to Olympic & Titanic in the article. One poster disagrees and keeps reverting. I suggest keep the photo in the article but state it's of Olympic while crediting both Olympic & Titanic since they're the same dimensions. The other poster disagrees. All in all it makes the Wikipedia article inaccurate by not stating which ship is in the pic.
I suggested to the other poster & also others the website LostLiners.com, Olympic section, "A New Leviathan" page, the bottom most picture which is the same view different camera position.
Also in the book "Last Days of the Titanic" by E.E. O'Donnel this picture is stated as Olympic. This book clears up a lot of confusion over a number of Olympic pictures that were thought to be Titanic over the decades. Koplimek (talk) 00:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
A fair compromise would be to caption it as 'View of the stern and rudder of one of the Olympic class in drydock.' Then a note explaining where different sources say she is either the Olympic or Titanic. Benea (talk) 00:53, 20 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The photograph of the clock on the grand staircase and said to be a photograph of the clock on the Olympic is incorrect. The photograph is of the Titanic. The clock at the head of the staircase was significantly more elaborate on the Titanic. This item is regularly cited as one of the differences between the two vessels.
Reference: Page 153, Titanic anh Her Sisters Olympic & Brittanic, PRC Publishing Ltd, London, 1998.
Again this is where a generalised caption and a note may be a good idea. Both the Library of Congress and lostliners.com identify this as Olympic, taken in 1911. Daniel Allen Butler's Unsinkable: The Full Story of the RMS Titanic identifies this as the Titanic though. This thread on Encyclopedia Titanica.com (not an RS I know but they tend to know what they're talking about) seems to indicate that there are no surviving pictures of Titanic's staircase, but the only differences were the animal carving underneath the clock itself had a ram's head on Olympic, whilst Titanic had a lion's head. Benea (talk) 00:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Further to my reference to the Grand Staircase clock, an additional reference is go to www.youtube.co/watch?v=D9-z6Nw2FM which shows both clocks in photographs. The first is acknowledged as not belonging to Titanic. It is in fact Olympic's clock. The next two photos are Titanic's clock. The photo in this article is unquestionably that of Titanic. I will check your reference to the Library of Congrees as I am amazed they have an error. I suspect the photograph says the staircase in the two ships was identical without a reference to the clock. They would then be right. As you can see there are no animals on the Olympic clock so I wonder where you picked up a reference to a lion and a ram.
Incidently, I agree absolutely with your position where a title or a reference can be ambiguous, it should be defined in a way which is acceptable to all until absolute proof can be ascertained. In the case of the clock, however, that point has already been reached and passed.
The Library of Congress identifies the specific picture as being taken aboard the Olympic, they are therefore unambiguously stating that the clock and staircase are both Olympic's. The reference to animals comes from the Encyclopedia Titanica thread linked to above, I can make no comment about how right or wrong it is as a statement. I found your video (the link doesn't work by the way but I'm assuming it's the one titled 'Tribute to RMS Titanic'?) but I'm a little confused. The first two images of clocks are the ornate version you're saying is Titanic's? And the plainer one which appears later is Olympic's? The main concern I have is that in a lot of cases photographs of the Olympic are claimed to be the Titanic, which because of her short career did not have as many taken of her. A publisher or similar would therefore claim that a picture was of the infamous and tragic Titanic, rather than her less well known sister. The compiler of that assortment of clips, for example, assumed that all of those pictures were of the Titanic, despite the completely different clocks. The point is though we have a book that shows two different clocks and states that one is from one ship and the other is from the other, we have sources that suggest that they could well be the other way round, the plainer clock is Titanic's, the well known widely circulated ornate one is Olympic's. Or the plainer clock could be from a different ship altogether. Does your book say anything about the reasons for a plainer clock in Olympic that might clarify the issue? Or give a hint about where they have sourced the photograph from? Books that I have read on the subject suggest that Olympic was the more luxuriously appointed of the two liners, so it is even more surprising to consider she had such a plain clock in comparison. Please don't think I'm being overly nitpicking, as your explanation does sound very plausible, but we have to follow Verifiability rather than truth in these instances, so we have to be very sure we can discount what these other sources are saying. If we can do that, we can correct the article. Otherwise a more ambiguous statement would be more satisfactory. Benea (talk) 03:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your statement that the Olympic was the more luxurious of the two vessels shows you to be ill informed and poorly read. Note that the Titanic was the larger of the two ships and then read Harland and Wolff's reasons why and you will find it was in part caused by fitting more luxurious interiors and minor adaptions to comfort items which were never fitted to the Olympic. The whole Parisean Cafe was left out of the Olympic and only retrofitted after Titanic sank. The book I cited is included in the Library of Congress in two puiblishers names as ISBN 0-947160-350-6. You may care to refer to the National Geographic Society who make the same claims about the ship's appointment and the clock as I do and agree with me as does 'Shipwrecks of the 20th Century,1988, Bookman Publishing, Baltimore ISBN 0-8317-7781-8'. You should also note the Steamship Historical Society / University of Baltimore Library agrees with me and so do the White Star publications of the day. Most students of this tragedy are aware that the Olympic was broken up in 1936 with the interior fitments being auctioned. The Grand Staircase from that ship can bee seen in 'The White Swan' hotel in Alnwick where you will also find light fittings, door handles and screens.
You are making a mockery of reasoned thought with your comment about caution on wording of entries by making unsubstantiable false and unresearched claims on this ship. I urge you to restore some credibility by either citing your sources or apologetically accepting that of more learned persons than yourself.
I have pointed out where these sources come from. The Library of Congress itself has labelled this very photograph as being aboard Olympic. You say that you find it incredible that they would make such a mistake, but that is exactly what you are implying, hence my desire to be sure that we can dismiss what they claim as false. But thank you for providing some more references, which national geographic publication is this? I might be able to check this myself. Please understand I will be very keen to correct a mistake in wikipedia, but I'm equally determined to do this right. On a more serious note, if you do plan to continue to contribute to wikipedia, you must read our basic policies, particularly about assume good faith and no personal attacks. You will find your editing privileges withdrawn very quickly if you fail to keep a cool head in discussions like these. Benea (talk) 11:27, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I also feel we are getting a little sidetracked. Returning to the issue at hand. The question of the staircases and clocks have been already heavily discussed and debated in intimate detail. Here is a massive debate over the ornate version of the clock, one of the contributors is Curator of 'Titanic - The Exhibition' apparently. Anyway, see how carefully they analyse the pictures and how the conclude that is Olympic's. Your 'Titanic anh Her Sisters Olympic & Brittanic' is mentioned, and it is agreed that pictures that they are billing as Titanic's staircase are actually Olympic's. Leo Marriot's 'Titanic' also identifies this picture of the staircase and ornate clock as being Olympic's. Here is English Heritage's version of the picture, attributing it to Olympic. But here's the fascinating thing, the clock still exists apparently, and is held by the Southampton Maritime Museum! So really there is considerable cause for saying it is Olympic's, this is certainly not an open and shut case. You seem to have one source, a source that is contradicted by a number of other sources, and one which seems to have fallen prey to what Marriot warns about in his book, that of, because there are far fewer pictures of Titanic, claiming that a picture of Olympic, or perhaps a different ship altogether, is actually Titanic. Benea (talk) 22:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Fortuneately, the Olympic clock is extant. I have written to the last published organisation in possession of it. I have sought a verbal description and a photograph if the condition of the clock permits. It is nearly 100 years old and flashlight photography may not be in the best interest of the object.
Saying the Library of Congress has a reference does not prove anything to be true. The Library is a reference library not a research library. Researchers may use the Library but the Library does not have researchers to verify the information that it holds. That duty falls to the Smithsonian Institution or a maritime museum that has specialised accredited researchers on the subject.
I have cited two books in that Library which say my information is correct and you have still not told us the name of nor publication details of the book you claim suggests your alternate is true. You must give us the name of the book, its publication details and its Library of Congress reference number so that we can puruse the reference ourselves and then take a educated position as to the veracity of the author. Even my citations are inadequate proof that the photograph is of the Titanic not the Olympic. That information together with the other items I have mentioned and a raft of other other learned opinion leads me to the conclusion that I am correct and the photograph is incorrectly labeled as Olympic. We have a responsibility to verify and correct known errata.
Wikipedia is attempting to create an accurate, well informed and researched encyclopedia. Your endeavours are to dumb the content down to suit personal bias. I agree that where information is challenged that a dumbed down version is better than a false one. What you are doing with this article is not dumbing down but supporting false information. The statement that the photograph is of the Olympic is wrong. Referenced evidence supports that position. You are proposing that an unreferenced claim should be taken as correct contrary to referenced material. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.135.92 (talk) 23:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I had a look at the photograph you referred to and which claims to be of the Olympic and taken in 1921. I have never seen any other reference to that date associated with the photograph. It warrants further investigation.
I also accept that Dr Robert Ballard, whose research into the Titanic resulted in his discovery of the wreck in 1987, is accurate and researched his subject very extensively. In his book, 'Exploring the Titanic, 1988, Octopus Publishing Group Ltd, London, ISBN 1-871307-00-7' on page 13 lncludes a photograph of the Grand Staircase on the Titanic. It is verifiable as being on the Titanic because it includes some of the passengers from the ill-fated journey. Unless we can find a passenger list of those same people being on board the Olympic simultaneously earlier than April 1912, then the veracity of Dr Ballard's assertion that his photograph is Titanic is good enough for me. He further ascribes a photograph on page 47 to Titanic. Taken in the Grand Staircase and showing the position of the clock on the bulkhead of the wreck, page 46, the outline of the clock and it is clearly shaped like the photograph on page 47. I believe that is sufficient evidence of the clock aboard the Titanic.
I have read the thread you offered. I propose now to see if the original clock was removed from the Olympic during its trooping days and was restored during the 1920 refit. That would place those workmen in the mystery photo into 1920, give a reason why the clock had no hands as it was being refitted. It also explains the clock attributed to Olympic by many as it could be the temporary fixture there during WW1. The issue of the dating of clothing would be more easily resolved as the Ballard photograph has both men and women in the picture. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.135.92 (talk) 01:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I am close to being done and restate my original claim that the photograph of the Grand Staircase in this article is a photograph of the Titanic not the Olympic.
The stair tread protection strips were brass on both the Titanic and Olympic until they were changed to rubber in the 1913 refit of the Olympic. A brass handrail was attached to the top of the level rails before June 1920. Your photograph that you refer to is the Bedford Lemere photograph of October 1921 and it has both those items in the photograph. The photograph in this article has neither.
Then the photograph in this article must be either the Titanic or Olympic prior to March 1913. I have always believed that the clock on Olympic in the ornate fashion was unable to be delivered on time for the Olympic's maiden voyage so a temporary clock was installed, (see photograph of temporary clock at bottom of page 153 in the 'Sisters, book). The final article was to be installed at a later date and may have been retrofitted in the 1913 refit, removed for trooping duties and refitted at the 1920 refit, or it was retrofitted in the 1920 refit. The 'Sisters' photograph of the Olympic was taken prior to 1913 as the Olympic has the brass tread protectors that were replaced with rubber ones in 1913. I believe this confirms that the ornate clock photographs with the brass tread protector are all Titanic photos and may not be as rare as most researchers believe. It doesn't matter whether the retrofit was either 1913 or 1920, it was after the rubber staircase tread protections were added in 1913. This leaves the only possible combination of brass tread protectors and an ornate clock, aboard the Titanic.
The only way I can be wrong is if the photograph was taken before March 1913 and the ornate clock had been installed aboard the Olympic. Then we would never be able to decide which ship this is a photograph of and the caption in this article is incorrect. There is no possible conclusion that the article is correct.
Saying the photograph is of Olympic is wrong. Saying it is on either the Olympic or Titanic is failure to research the last small detail. Saying it is probably a photograph of the Titanic Grand Staircase with further research required is the only acceptable conclusion. That research needs to be about the clock aboard the Olympic. We need its history which I hope to obtain from the Southampton Maritime Museum.
The article you referred to had the solution in their hands but missed the opportunity. The hands of the clock are missing on the so-called 'Mystery Photograph' that the evidence suggests was probably a retrofit in 1920 rather than in 1913. if our learned colleague is correct about male fashions of that period. That is completely out of my depth. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.222.135.92 (talk) 05:40, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, one last piece of evidence and final proof that this is a photograph of Titanic.
At the head of the stairs on the port side of Titanic was a doorway leading to the First Class cabins. It was not originally put into Olympic and was retrofitted in 1913. The photograph in this article shows the door ajar. You can't see it very well in the photo as is but by taking the photo into Adobe Photoshop and lightening the shaddows, the frame of the door becomes apparent because of the heavier shadow line caused by the door being ajar. Also the alignment of the trim around the door is changed when the door is ajar.
Our picture now has three items that I claim were different, the stair tread protection was brass, the clock is the ornate version and the port side door leading from the landing to the Fist Class Cabins are all visible in this photo. Two of those items are chronicled as being fitted to Olympic after the sinking of Titanic, the tread protector and the door, ergo, the photograph in this article is of the Titanic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug H Australia (talk • contribs) 09:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
To correct what might be an ambiguity. The three items, the brass tread protector, the door and the clock were only ever simultaneously on the Titanic. The rubber tread protector and the door were added simultaneously on Olympic at the 1913 refit. Logically, the photo can only be possible as a photo of the Titanic as this same combination never existed together on the Olympic. In fact, you can remove the clock entirely from the equation if you want to, the combination of the remaining two pieces of evidence never existed together on the Olympic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug H Australia (talk • contribs) 09:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I understand what you are saying. Information in Wikipedia says that the brass step tread was changed in 1913, ergo, any picture with brass tread is pre 1913. Information in Wikipedia says that the door was added to Olympic in 1913, therefore any photo with the door in it is Titanic or Olympic post 1913.
It is not new research to say that any photo with a brass step tread and a door leading to the First Class cabins from the landing of the forward Grand Staircase can only be Titanic. It is only merging the two Wikipedia statements that have been researched and verified by others and then placed into Wikipedia.
I am not a qualified researcher, but if I've got two proven parts of an apple, I'm not stupid enough to call it an orange. Likewise two previously verified items verified by others can only exist in a predetermined and irrefutable manner. These two Wikipedia pieces of evidence when conjoined mean the photograph is Titanic and can not be anything else. Calling the photograph Olympic does not make it so. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug H Australia (talk • contribs) 02:07, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Making an analysis on our own, regardless of if the pieces that justify that analysis are stated on Wikipedia or not, is original research. We are restricted to what the sources state the image represents. If the sources say it's Titanic or Olympic is the only question that is relevant. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 02:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Sir, I am not analysing the facts to give a position. Dr Robert Ballard has said this photograph is a photograph of the Titanic. My position is that I merely sought to inform myself of which claim was likely to be correct. My position is that the correct reference is his and recommend that Wikipedia select his reference as the correct one for the reasons I have stated. You have multiple diverging references on this matter. Either way the references are supposedly verified. I choose Dr Ballard's because it makes logical sense and the other one doesn't.
My understanding of the policies and guidelines is that if there are multiple otherwise reliable sources that have different explanations or descriptions; but one view is held by the majority of those sources, then state the majority opinion. If both views are prevalent across the sources, then the best path is to state on the image caption that there's disagreement on the contents of the image, and to cite sources for each position. Or another simpler option is to leave out the disputed image if possible and allow other images to act as the illustration for the article - although that can frequently result in debate on if the image should be re-added. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 02:46, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Please don't take this as rudeness, but using a simple majority rule is what the arbiters of knowledge (the Popes) did in the middle ages and then executed the minority with an opposing opinion. By your rule we would still be saying the Sun revolved around the Earth. Dr Ballard was better than all others who tried to locate the Titanic because his research was more thorough before he went looking. He says it is Titanic and that is logically more than likely correct. I reaffirm my belief, the photograph is Titanic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug H Australia (talk • contribs) 03:08, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
You are certainly entitled to your belief, and you may even be correct - I'm not stating my opinion either way. But, we are bound by Wikipedia policies and guidelines on article content here. To do otherwise would mandate either going to the WP:V, WP:RS, and/or WP:OR talk pages and convincing the comunity to change those policies, or to go to a different website that doesn't use those policies so as to avoid those restrictions. --- Barek (talk • contribs) - 03:17, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
We gotta stop this but you are stating an opinion. The article says it is Olympic without any qualification. That's an opinion right or wrong. Change it to a statement that shows Dr Ballard says otherwise and why that may be correct, or, remove the article altogether. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug H Australia (talk • contribs) 03:36, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you Barek. As I stated right at the start before this enormous debate began, there are sources which say Titanic, there are sources which say Olympic. You have been trying to prove to us that this is Titanic, but under WP:OR we can't accept your original research, under WP:V we can't accept what you claim to be the truth no matter how likely or unlikely we think it to be and under WP:POV we can't just accept that your point of view can take precedence here. A caption which states that it is one of the Olympic class's grand staircase is factually accurate. Follow this with a note which states where different sources identify this as Olympic, and others the Titanic and we have a neutral caption which acknowledges a dispute amongst the sources. What we cannot do is bring this dispute onto wikipedia and take the view of one of these sources over the others. And please don't accuse editors of dumbing down, of being biased or attempting to hide the 'truth'. the key thing to do is always assume good faith, not matter how heated the debate gets. These guidelines and policies have been established because of the collaborative nature of wikipedia and therefore must be upheld here as with anywhere else on the encyclopedia. Benea (talk) 13:35, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've altered the caption and indicated some sources that cover both sides of the debate. Is this acceptable to you? Please note that we cannot add an editorial comment about why one source may be right for the reasons outlined above. We have to let readers follow up the sources if they are partciularly interested and decide for themselves. Benea (talk) 14:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Until an independent research source confirms the photograph is or is not Titanic based on the additional information I have now collected at a single spot, (our 'discusion' even if somewhat warmed by a reasonable private conviction, now assembled on these pages), a label that the staircase is on one of the Olympic class liners is acceptable and ought to be to all. I, like anyoune else who chooses to, will seek to find a new reseacher who will state catagorically it is Titanic for the reasons I tied together. Then, expect me back.
I have received a response from Alastair Arnott, Curator of Local Collections at Southampton City Council. He tells me that the Southampton Maritime Library has never been in possession of the clock from the Olympic. They do have the panelling depicting Honour and Glory through Time, but never the clock.
This response advances neither position on the authenticity of the photograph and we must rely on the brass tread protector and the portside door to the First Class cabins.
Frankly, I have a bit of a problem with the photographs. I think they're way too uneven. What I mean is you have photographs of almost the same thing: the Titanic passing through Belfast, departing Belfast, departing Southampton, docked in Southampton, sea trials, three of her getting built. The three getting built differ but to me, all the departing and docked ones look the same. And then there are eight pictures of first class parts; none of second or third. I don't know much about the copy right rules. I don't upload pictures of newer things in fear I'll do it wrong. I do know though that anything before 1923 is fair use, meaning we can take it from a website because there is no copyright over it.
There are so many pictures out there. Second and third class cabins, smoking, public and dining rooms, the barber shop, the pool, the last known photograph of the Titanic, the elevator, even a picture of the wireless room with someone in it. I've found two websites with different pictures, and I'm wondering which ones would work:
http://www.euronet.nl/users/keesree/palace.htm This has a picture of the wireless room but the rest of the pictures are small and grainy.
http://www.titanic-online.com/index.php4?page=167 That one, you need to click 'the ship' and then what level and where. But they're larger and better photos than the first link, except the one of the third class cabin is coloured so it's been doctored.
The ship wasn't just first class, so it's a bit discrimitory to have it ALL first class, in my opinion. And there are so many fair use pictures out there that there's no reason to keep it like this. I'll upload the pictures - I'll have to figure out how to first - but I just need to know which ones people want. -Babylon pride (talk) 18:35, 8 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
