Talk:Batman

An event in this article is a January 12 selected anniversary

Page needs more citations

just out of curiosity, does anyone know the name of the comic in which batman kicked the jla's butts just to prove that he could? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.89.24.211 (talk) 05:38, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It's called JLA: Tower of Babel by Mark Waid, Batman doesn't 'kick the JLA's butts' Ra's Al Ghul does using plans Batman fabricated in case the JLA ever went rogue and needed to be stopped. It's JLA collection #7, if you want to go buy it.Zero no Kamen (talk) 19:04, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Arcayne on this edit. How do we know that the bibliography covers these? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:00, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

I should probably not have removed the tags in sections such as "Supporting characters" and "Batcave", but in some of the other sections ("Costume", and the intro to "Skills, abilities, and resources", to name a few), the case is different. The article's syntax changed quite a lot for the better through its last FA-review and in the time between then and now. While those changes were occuring, many of the editors who were adding the bulk of comments now tagged were among the same adding the Daniels, Pearson, Jones, etc. refs. So it seems most of the other editors just assumed any uncited sentence from a paragraph which contained a ref later on came from those guys. I wished I owned more of those books so I could make sure in all cases. While I can't understand how can "Batman's costume incorporates the imagery of a bat in order to frighten criminals" can be considered not surmisable from the bibliography, I do agree that there's some problems in some of the sections tagged, but they're problems having to do with a bit original research here and there and unnecessary references to miniscule events in minuscule stories, despite the nice syntax. Maybe there's simply no need for the article to say Batman's is "peerless" in matters of intellect, and therefore no need for a source. Could a major article re-write be what's needed? --Ace ETP (talk) 19:47, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Which are you suggesting: {{rewrite}} or {{underconstruction}}? Lord Sesshomaru (talk • edits) 19:51, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

(ec)Sorry, I was delayed in getting here. I know its a necessary evil, but I really hate when we use specific issues to reference material. I know that several books have been published that cover the discussion of Batman's publication history and whatnot, and DV tends to keep a pretty good rolling db on this sort of stuff.

Regarding the surmisable, I am fortunate enough to know people in mainland China and other places in Asia who have never heard of Batman, and aren't aware of the various things that I asked for citation on. When Bruce decided that the bat was a symbol that be used to frighten criminals is something that could be cited. I would go so far as to suggest that the classic three-panel comic image of Bruce asking the question/bat flying through the french doors/Bruce deciding how bats will work on the "cowardly, criminal lot" might express this perfectly (note that this remains the same despite the evolution of Bruce's fear of bats, a la Legends). This is a link to the panels in question

I should point out that I despise OR and synthesis - common knowledge and common sense aren't. We must approach these articles as if they were being read by absolute beginners to the subject matter (and not simpletons or children).

Lastly, rewrites are always a good thing. It takes the good parts of the previous versions and sifts out the outdated or outmoded preconceptions of the earlier material. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 20:06, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

If you despise OR so much, why did you revert my deletion of User:Djfspence's contribution and your innapropiate addition of the descriptor "ridiculous" to describe the 60's television series? Both those edits can't be defended with the arguments you're using towards the inclusion of the tags. One side of an argument should NEVER use the fact that the discussion is ongoing as a justification to revert edits which responded to concerns outside the scope of the argument (in this case, a troublesome edit by a third party threatening to make an edit conflict even worse, and the addition of a personal opinion about something). As for your question, Seeshomaru, I'm leaning towards {{rewrite}}, but the particular advantages and disadvantages of both proposed procedures should be evaluated before making a decision. --Ace ETP (talk) 23:31, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

In answer to your first question, it is because what I hate more than OR is the lack of discussion, Ace. Granted, what I should have done is remove campy and instead of ridiculous and substituted banal (the more accessible definition of campy), and I will do so at the end of the discussion.

As well, Djfspence's contribution was sourced, like 90% of the material here - via a comic. That it seemed to specifically explore the Batman/Bruce dichotomy seemed in an interesting way seemed a positive contribution, not a "troublesome edit". I think that discussion should have occurred, and my revert of that edit was meant to inspire that dialogue (as per WP:BRD). As it prompted your posting here, it would seem to have worked. Why do you feel the contribution wasn't needed? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

I've made an edit to the bruce wayne section, segregating the basic Bruce Wayne premises into one para, and the comparisons to superman into the other. ThuranX (talk) 21:22, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Works for me. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 21:55, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Page needs more citations - arbitrary break 1

• I've pulled some of these tags, they seem to ask for citations on things which fall under sparkling writing rather than facts which actually need verifying. I think some of the ones remaining are also a little over-sensitive. Hiding T 09:53, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I noticed, and I have reverted some of them. Usually, we do not remove a citation unless we put a citation in its place, it isn't called for (in the case of - as you called it - "sparkling writing"), or discussion consensus as to how the facts are so common and/or well-known that citation exists literally everywhere.

These are the cn tag removals I reverted:

• "He is regarded as one of the DC Universe's greatest detectives{" - I feel this to be a rather extraordinary claim, and as such needs not only citation, but a rather extraordinary one, as well. We cannot make that claim, someone else that we can cite needs to make that claim.

• "The costumes' colors are traditionally..." - traditionally according to who, exactly? Granted, this might be an example of flowery prose (I think it's okay, personally), but until the text is rewritten, we are left with an unsupported statement of implied preference through the use of the word traditional - ie, the use of other colors is unusual?

• "A yellow ellipse around the bat logo on the character's chest was added in 1964" - while a fact tag should have been used, the date the ellipse was added (as well as the not-yet-added reason as to why it was added, which I've always wanted to know) needs citation.

• "Batman keeps most of his field equipment in a signature piece of apparel, a utility belt" - (itals used for identification) As in the "greatest detective" reference above, that this is Batman's most notable piece of equipment is at best, a matter of opinion. Without citation, equally legitimate arguments could be made for the bat-eared cowl, the scalloped cape or gloves or even the Batmobile.

• "The origin of the signal varies, depending on the continuity and medium" - The origin of the Bat-Signal should be expanded upon, as well as how (and perhaps, if possible, why) such an innocuous thing needs constant reinterpretation. I should have marked this with an expansion tag, but could not find one that was statement-specific. My apologies for any resultant confusion.

I think that the addition of these citations would only improve the article, and would request that the tags not be reverted without further discussion. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 18:37, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• • Okay. The word signature doesn't mean most notable, so if that's the only reason you've added it, I think we can remove that one. I'm unclear on what you want cited regarding the yellow ellipse. If you want information that is not in the article cited, you don't add a citation tag, but rather an expansion one. But that information is better added to another article. The information within the article is already cited to Les Daniels' book. There is a citation to it at the end of the sentence. If you wish to know more, you should read that book. That's how an encyclopedia works, it directs you to further reference works, it is not the ultimate compendium but an overall summary. The reason you have stated for adding back the tag on the greatest detective makes no sense to me. I'm not claiming anything. As to the origin of the bat-signal, this isn't the article to explore the different stories surrounding it. That would be best discussed in an article on the Bat-signal. Have you watched the different media and noted that the origin stories are different? If not, you cannot dispute the citation. You can only dispute a citation if you have verified it does not represent the source. You add a citation needed tag when no citation is present. As I have explained, the citation exists in the text, it is citing the various media. Hiding T 09:57, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • Unrelated point, it's not me who refers to it as sparkling writing. That used to be what the Brilliant prose process called for. The brilliant prose process is now the FA process. I notice that the word sparkling is no longer used, although the desired standard is still high, being that "prose is engaging, even brilliant, and of professional standard." Hiding T 10:18, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
  • My mistake, it used to be "sparkling prose". Hiding T 10:19, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, could you be troubled to utilize the normal indenting style? It makes separating your comments from your specific bullet points (and the bullet points I, as another editor made immediately above); not everything you say is a bullet point.

Secondly, I am a little confused by the tone of your response. You don't need to bring any condescension here. Perhaps we have slightly different impressions of what the Wikipedia encyclopedia is supposed to be; at the very least, you clearly are mistaken about my level of understanding of it.

Of course, WP is not a compendium in the way you are thinking, but it is supposed to be a concise treatment of the subject matter.It is not an overall summary - that is the definition of the Lead, not the article. Does that mean it should be a fan-crufty clutter of non-essential crap? No. But it will be the go-to article on the subject - or at least that should be our intent. That's the reason we cite everything that requires it. If folk want to explore the matter, they know where to do so. If they want to write branch articles of a particular facet of the Batman, the citation serves as launching point for that sub-article research.

But those questions which are likely to be asked by the reader - readers who are unfamiliar with the Daniels book, or who might not have as exhaustive a knowledge of All Things Batman as you appear to possess - should be addressed within the parent article. Why did the Batman logo come into existence? Why was it later removed? Simply saying that a fact is referenced 'earlier in the article' is not sufficient. If a fact that comes up needs citation, it doesn't need it at some point earlier, it needs it there.

That being said, most of your added citations appear to be helpful, though the ones in th costume section - which added my name in the reference (what the hell was that about?) were pretty useless. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:59, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Hey everyone, a while ago I did some heavy work on this article, rewriting much of the prose and incoporating most of the references now included. My intention was to avert another Feature Article Review; after writing some Featured Articles myself, I came to the conclusion that the Batman article at that time (poorly written in places, marred with fancruft, only cited with about 18 footnotes, many of them to issues instead of reliable secondary sources) did not fit the criteria. I had finished work on most of the article when a couple of editing debates came up that soured me on working on it, even though I had put so much work into it. The places were citations are requested are virtually all in spots I planned to rewrite before I stopped working on the article. I'm not sure I want to start working on it again, but I want to stress that when rewriting and sourcing the section, rely on the best secondary sources, ie. the Daniels book, Wright, various peer-reviewed academic essay. Think "what does a person who knows nothing about Batman need to know?" For one, they certainly don't need an explanation of the Bat-signal beyond "the police use it to ask for Batman's help". I was actually planning to remove the separate Bat-signal section and just work a one-sentence mention of it in somewhere appropriate. WesleyDodds (talk) 02:45, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Hiya, Wesley - seen you around the playground before, but never got a real chance to say howdy. So, howdy. :)

For the most part, I agree with you on your comments about the re-write of the article, as well as the need for sources outside the comic issue. If secondary sources are available, of 'course we should go for them, but as is often the case with comic books, sources from books not composed of newsprint or composed mainly of artboxes is hard to find. As well, sometimes, it's helpful to know when certain turning points occurred in a comic book (the death of Gwen Stacy, Bane breaking the Batman's back, the death of Captain America, and the pivotal (seeming) death of Bucky). :Often, knowing what issues these events occurred in is as important to the user as is the postscript analyses of these events. I've been reading Batman off and on since I could read as a child, and I've always wondered why the yellow ellipse was adopted and later why it was dropped. Now, the grown-up in me understands that these changes took place under the writing or artwork of different folk, who interpreted the Bat this way or that, and I suppose that (if cited) is an excellent way to iterate that in the article. The kid in me, the person wonders how Batman develops all those wonderful gadgets and whatnot needs to be satisfied, too. I don't think that meeting these not-entirely-unrelated needs is all that hard to do.

The batsignal thing is the tip of the issue, in many ways. Aside from the essentially in-universe method of describing events, there must exist somewhere a citable description of why the origin of this seemingly innocuous invention has changed time and again. I get that the origin of the Batman is going to change, as our understanding of the human psyche expands; I just think that we need to provide citable evidence of this occurring as a phenomena, and not just as a changing of the guard at DC, or the zany Batman stories of the 50's and 60's, where he has a red costume for dealing with lava monsters from the UnderBelly (or whatever).

I hope some of what I mentioned makes sense. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 14:42, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I've attempted to source and rewrite bits of the article. Hiding T 20:06, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I noticed. A pretty nice job of it, too. :) - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 05:54, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Kudos to my colleagues for the good work on the article and the great discussion on this page. Just wanted to say. --Tenebrae (talk) 05:31, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

wanted to bring attention to the original sketches/artist of Batman: http://www.originalbatman.com/index.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mahhn (talk • contribs) 23:11, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Batman v Bruce Wayne.

I recall an interview with Bale (or possibly Nolan) that said that the Batman Begins portrayal wasn't Batman/Bruce Wayne but rather Batman/Bruce Wayne/Millionaire-Playboy-Bruce-Wayne. I can't find the ref again, of course, but will keep look... unless someone else knows it. Duggy 1138 (talk) 10:44, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Why the constant deletion of my Balance, Bruce Wayne/Batman argument? It is a perfectly valid point, If you read Batman 515 you'll notice he talks abut keeping a balance between Bruce Wayne and Batman, knowing who Batman is but not knowing who Bruce Wayne is. Again in Batman 542 he talks about keeping a balance in the narrative, Bruce Wayne must be the one to save Batman from the point of obsession and Batman must be the one to save Bruce Wayne from complete self-absorbtion. I'm perfectly willing to talk out any disputes we may have over the issue. Zero no Kamen (talk) 19:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Hey ZnK. The reason I reverted the addition was that the content was a product of synthesis (ie. you adding an interpretation/summation/evaluation of the Batman/Bruce Wayne 'dualism'). We can't do that without references that speak specifically to that evaluation. What would be a better fit is if we find an external (meaning outside the comic book) source speaking as to the duality and shift in perception/execution of this duality. I understand why this might be difficult, but comic series - esp. long-running ones like Batman - are breeding grounds for retconned information and viewpoints. This is why its always better to try and find more static information speaking as to what was going on. I think that blogs and podcasts by the creators in these instances are frequently allowed (as they are in Babylon 5 and Battlestar Galactica are good examples of such). Thoughts? - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:51, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't know. Can we get hold of Doug Moench, or Denny O'Neil? They would provide an external source, some evidence. O'Neil would be very easy to do, he writes a weekly column, but other than perhaps asking these people and then citing the results there is nothing other than the run of books themselves that I can give as a reference. If the books themselves are substantial then I can quote the narrative where Batman suggests he needs a balance in his duality.Zero no Kamen (talk) 17:04, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Batman's Height

Is there any official listing on Batman's height. I know that he is very tall in the comics but the actors that have portrayed him in film are average sized. My guess is that he is around 6' 6" judgeing by the comic books of course.

- - Yes, there is: http://www.dcuguide.com/who.php?name=batman (a transcription of the old DC Who's Who) lists him as 6'2" and 210 lbs. Generally, Who's Who is seen as canonical, much like the OHOTMU is for Marvel. Alparrott (talk) 00:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Batmobile

I read the article and it came up as really curious that after the article's tone goes to state that the camp phase of the character ended in the 1980's, then goes off to portray the 1960's version of the car in the section "Equipment". Furthermore, when it was added to serve as an illustration of the vehicle the article was referring to with the machine guns, it was taken down with the comment "we cannot have 2 pictures for the same section". First off, who says we can't? and second, why stick with the 60's car instead of any of the other sources or iterations the car has gone through? - we could stay with any, or all, better yet, we should settle to stay with the most current version appearing in the comics. Bruce_Kenobi April 24th 2008 13:05 GMT-5

I would tend to agree with you that the statement about only 1 picture per section is a bit draconian, considering the large number of FA and GA articles that fail that unique assessment (Ronald Reagan and 300 immediately come to mind, since I've worked on both of those FA articles). That being said, the temptation to add images that are decorative instead of informative can be almost overwhelming at times. You should always ask yourself whether the image you are adding helps explain something the text alone simply cannot. For example, this image from 300 compares the imagery from the source graphic novel by Frank Miller to that which was recreated in film. This image illustrates better than mere text that the film was an extraordinarily faithful adaptation of the source material.

I think the reason that the comic representations weren't useful is that a) they are copywritten images, and b) they don't illustrate anything other than coolness. Now, if you to add an image of the Batmobile from the Bale-Batman series, you could justify that. If you could find supplemental citation as to how the production team developed the idea of the Batmobile, you could certainly add that. Even better would be citation about how the production team moved away from the sleek looks of the actually-crafted vehicle from the 60's series and the computer-generated vehicle from the pre-Bale films. Frankly, that would be awesome. Hope that addresses some of your questions. Please feel free to ask any others. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 19:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Citation from written, and "official" sources as to the direction the batmobile took in the Bale-Batman movies is something that can be done, as well as another image from "the tumbler" as it is coloquially refferred. The thing is if we can stay with the newest batmobile and take down the 60's era one for the aforementioned reasons. Bruce_Kenobi 15:20, April 24th 2008 GMT-5 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.24.210.1 (talk) 20:08, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

I guess it could be discussed, but I personally think that the notability - in immediate identification of the auto with the Batman for 1-2 generations of tv-watching kids is apparent. The "Tumbler", less so. A side-by-side comparison can be made, but I think the 60's Lincoln Futura is something that should remain. If you are having trouble finding a good starting point, try Batmobile. - Arcayne (^{cast a spell}) 22:35, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Fictional Biography

I think it'd be quite an accomplishment if we could make a seperate fictional biography page so that the one here can be truncated and the detail added in on a seperate page with headings to make it easier to find arcs, like Spidey has. Tony2Times (talk) 21:57, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Batman's Abilities

Should it be mentioned that Batman is the only being (Superman survived it, Wonderwoman deflected it with ther bracelets) to successfully evade Darkseid's Omega Beam (effect)? This happened in JLU episode 5x13'Destroyer', so I'm not sure if people believe this canonical? Myself0101 (talk) 10:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

No. 1. What happens in the cartoon is not canon to all other media. 2. Batman has been the only person to do many, many different things, too many to mention. 3. It's not one of his defining qualities. Doczilla _STOMP! 17:59, 24 May 2008 (UTC)

In many of the movies and games of Batman he has been shown to use unknown means (which tend to look like fear or torture) to gain information that no one else has the skill to get from many criminals and eniemies, Does anyone know exactly what he does? and if he uses this ability in the comics then its canon with his abilities so why isn't it noted down somewhere? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.197.173.165 (talk) 14:23, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Similarity to Jason Voorhees?

In someways, couldn't batman be described as the protagonist version of Jason Voorhees? Both are shadowy figures with a dark past, and both lack any supernatural powers other than shear strength. Both are dark and reclusive, showing little emotion or mercy for their enemies, and both are often portrayed as effectively invincible. The only difference is that Batman kills those who are threats to the city, while Jason kills those who tread on the grounds of the camp where he died. Fusion7 (talk • contribs) 00:13, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

First, Batman doesn't kill people (at least not with any regularity). Second, this isn't the place to discuss hypothetical symbolisms. If you're talking about improving the article, great, but without a literary analysis it would be original research for us to say anything of the sort. joshschr (Talk | contribs) 00:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Where else can I go to do this then? There is no other place to turn to. Fusion7 (talk) 23:45, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

A good place to talk about this might be 4chan.org/co/. Wikipedia is not the place for discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.63.154.20 (talk) 02:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I seriously doubt that 4chan is a "a good place" for much of anything, unless maybe the comics section is MUCH more intelligent than the rest of that cesspool of Internet stupidity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.215.28.146 (talk) 05:24, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I do see some similarities. Especially in Frank Miller's "Return of the Dark Knight". He was shot,stabbed, and beat with a wrench and yet managed to survive and recover.

Batman as a villain revisited

In light of the events which take place in the new movie (The Dark Knight), I've decided to attempt again to add this section. There is mounting evidence that this is justified and I will here provide a couple of links making the case. Spoiler Alert! The Dark Knight is an Unmasked Bush Apologist here: http://www.opednews.com/articles/Spoiler-Alert---The-Dark-K-by-Ray-Louis-080718-217.html AND “Batman Begins”: Bruce Wayne, Defendant here: http://overlawyered.com/2005/06/batman-begins-bruce-wayne-defendant/

From the previous discussions of the deleted section (Batman as a Villain)... "How can ALL my heavily cited edits not be accurate or verifiable? You are not giving me any slack here! Has he ever been guilty of any sort of crime ever? Has anyone ever pointed out those crimes inside and outside of Batman's fictional universe? Your position seems to be that Batman is a hero period. But modern comic book characters are often complex with their criminal dark sides. I can admit that Batman has saved the day more than once -- but that does not mean I will only point out those times and omit from mention any of his crimes." --Nihilozero (talk) 08:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Criticism should go to the film's article, not the actual comics character. Alientraveller (talk) 09:57, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

This article draws on characteristics from various media elsewhere in the page and such characteristics should not just be acceptable if they are generally considered good traits. In any case... Batman tortures in various forms of the media so that characteristic should have a place here. --Nihilozero (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

If vague notions of Batman's homosexuality can be explored, then cited questions about his criminal behavior should be allowed -- at least for discussion. That obvious fans of the character are deleting the fact that he uses torture tactics is destroying the comprehensive credibility of this page. --Nihilozero (talk) 11:36, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The torture aspect deserves a mention (a mention), in the context that this is occasional in longssome media portrays. In the several thousand Batman stories told in comics, animation, live-action, TV/film, prose, etc., his use of torture is at best a single-digit percentage of his tactics, probably less. --Tenebrae (talk) 16:17, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

The question is where it is notable. It seems to me that torturing is at least as mentionable as intimidation. Torturing is a skill and since Batman is remarkably successful with it, it should be listed next to escape artistry. And finally... it is noteworthy that Batman uses illegal tactics to fight crime. The latter point being rather oxymoronic and atypically heroic to say the least -- especially when a tactic as morally dubious as torture is used. And it seems to me that how often he does something is not as important as how defining and well known the trait is. If someone only launched a nuclear bomb once, that would be notable even though rare -- but Batman is a known torturer from various forms of media and this tactic deserves mention (at least in passing at a few points in the article). This is especially true since a "Batman as Villain" section is not allowed despite being accused of villainy by characters in his universe as well as by those who have analyzed the (cited) content and also determined this to be the case. As I've said... this merits at least as much attention as the "Homosexual interpretations" section which I have no problem with. --Nihilozero (talk) 20:43, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

2¢... -ish...

Nihilozero has raised something fairly valid — the character (topic of this article) has a core element from inception to present of fitting the mold of a "villain". This isn't just an aspect of one film or a lone comic book arc, its something multiple comic book writers have commented on.

As section pointing up those inteview and link critical commentary isn't out of line. But...

1. WP:NPOV needs to be followed. Such a section should be minimized or sensationalized.
2. Secondary sources: The section would need to be based on interviews, reviews, and critical commentary. Not just just a listing of the laws the character has broken or the moraly questionalbe acts he's done.

- J Greb (talk) 21:51, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Others in the past have shared your acceptance of this balancing section to serve balance and clarification of the character. Nevertheless, fans remove the section no matter how well it may have been cited in the past. I could try to reformulate it, but I want to make sure that it would withstand most scrutiny. The links at the top of this section partially serve the purpose, as have previously cited quotes from characters within the comics and movies. I would like to see the commentary from the writers and wouldn't mind using a section on my user page as a sandbox for a new section. If no one wants to recreate the section themselves, I would welcome relevant material posted on my user page. Eventually I might get around to posting that section but critics and defenders of the section come and go with more or less involvement at times and I want to make a section which will stand the test of time.

--Nihilozero (talk) 22:12, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Nihilozero wrote: "it is noteworthy that Batman uses illegal tactics to fight crime." Indeed. But that doesn't make him a villain, merely a vigilante. Which is surely both a more accurate term and one less likely to cause people to baulk at the inclusion.

Added to which, there's obviously a fine line between terms such as "torture," "menace," "coercion" and "intimidation." The word 'Torture' (wrongly) implies in many minds the extraction of a false confession - Batman intends to extract the truth to save lives. That opens up a number of philosophical arguments (one vs. many; how far is too far, etc.) but doesn't automatically connote villainy. ntnon (talk) 01:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I am going to offer a compromise since, particularly in light of the new movie, several people obviously do not see Batman as much of a here -- to say this. Instead of "villain" (which is somewhat appropriate) how about a "Batman as a Criminal" section? I know not everyone sees him this way, but a sizable portion of the public does -- especially now that his abhorrent tactics have been highlighted in the Dark Knight. So, in addition to all the critical commentary, all the "villains" from the comic books and movies could have a section to have their in-universe perceptions highlighted. All of Wayne Enterprises questionable activities could be shown with balanced criticism, and Bruce Wayne/Batman could have his vigilante tactics (of torture, intrusive surveillance, etc.) duly noted. I think this is fair and necessary to balance all the glossed-over character flaws of Batman. --Nihilozero (talk) 05:44, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

I think that "Batman as a Vigilante" would be a better title than "Batman as a Criminal". If the section is even needed at all. Duggy 1138 (talk) 08:03, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Duggy 1138 on both counts (including the "if even needed") Note: If this goes through, remember that Wiki subhead MOS is that only the first word and proper nouns are capped. --Tenebrae (talk) 14:09, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The problem with "vigilante" is that it doesn't express that characters in his universe (as well a people in ours) feel that he is a criminal (in spite of and in addition to the fact that he is a vigilante), if not an outright villain. So this section can be supported by quotes from fictional characters, criminal acts noted in the various media forms, and critical evaluations and reviews (including at least one youtube video). I understand that most people see Batman as a hero (super-hero even), but a sizable number see him as more of a criminal villain -- and this should be noted for balance (as the "homosexual interpretations" section is allowed with similar criteria -- and I dare say that more people question his criminality rather than his sexuality). --Nihilozero (talk) 19:33, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

The status of a vigilante is subjective. Some people see the vigilante as a hero, some as an anti-hero, some as a criminal and some, even as a villain. And this can vary from vigilante to vigilante (in JLA/Avengers Batman saw Punisher as a villain, and often does with other Gotham vigilantes while accepting those he sanctions as heroes.)

This applies in our universe about real vigilantes and about comic book vigilantes. It applies in the DCU and most of the other media versions.

"Batman as vigilante" covers all four views of his actions, and decribes the type of criminal acts involved. To use "Criminal" or "Villain" priviledges one or two views over the rest.

Plus, all of Batman's criminal behaviour is vigilantism. What criminal acts is Batman commiting that aren't part of his vigilantism? Duggy 1138 (talk)

Typo in the page

The third sentence of cultural impact contains a typo pertaining to the word artifact. Currently it is spelled artefact, if someone would please correct.

In the "Enemies" section, the phrase "Many of Batman's foes seam to be..." should be corrected to "Many of Batman's foes seem to be..." Tim (talk) 22:14, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Should be noted IMHO

The persona of Bruce Wayne isn't considered a complete waste. As Wayne, he fired a bunch of people who disagreed with the 'quake-proof the Gotham buildings' plan he had. Lots42 (talk) 16:06, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Bat-Embargo

The keywords "Bat-Embargo" redirects here, but this page makes no mention of the said restriction on characters. Shouldn't there be a section explaining that if that term will take a curious searcher here? DanMat6288 (talk) 01:39, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Skills Matched by Blue Beetle (And maybe others)

I recently read the DC Wiki's article on Blue Beetle. It mentioned that his inventive skill matched Batman. So I was thinking off putting in something like "Ted Kord matches Bruce's inventive and scientific skills." I don't have a clue how to cite it, assuming the other wiki entry IS a valid source. --ArtifexCrastinus (talk) 19:52, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

My understanding is that an entry on another wiki (or even wikipedia itself) isn't a valid source. I'm pretty sure it's the old uni assignment thing of always citing the original source. If the BB entry is cited, use that as your source, if it isn't cited, I'd add a citation needed tag to that claim.

As to the need for the line, I'm not sure it is necessary. It's a "Ho'od Win" over inventiveness and science... and the article doesn't need that. "Oliver Green matches Bruce's weapon skills", "Shiva matches Bruce's Martial Arts skills", etc, etc. So I see the line as meaningless

Duggy 1138 (talk) 04:24, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

why can´t i edit here?

i´ve made the edits i needed to get ten in the sandbox but still i can´t edit