Talk:Aaron Klein

Single purpose accounts

Nearly thirty single-purpose accounts, four registered, the rest not. Some very obviously used by Aaron Klein and (very likely) by his boss Joseph Farah and others at WND (Wikipedia:Sock puppetry) to edit the Aaron Klein article:

1. 192.118.11.112 (talk · contribs) Most active (100+ edits) March 2006 to September 2007 (blocked one week, September 2007)
2. 192.118.11.120 (talk · contribs) January - September 2007 (blocked one week, September 2007)
3. 89.138.145.173 (talk · contribs) March 2008
4. 89.139.71.40 (talk · contribs) December 2007
5. 85.250.52.28 (talk · contribs) December 2007
6. 217.132.208.208 (talk · contribs) November 2007
7. 85.250.34.238 (talk · contribs) - October 2007
8. 69.200.87.76 (talk · contribs) - October 2007
9. 89.138.148.164 (talk · contribs) - August 2007
10. 85.250.13.52 (talk · contribs) (?) - August 2007
11. 217.132.254.31 (talk · contribs) - July 2007
12. 217.132.10.198 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
13. 217.132.141.207 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
14. 89.138.231.164 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
15. 89.139.195.205 (talk · contribs) - June 2007
16. 89.139.242.38 (talk · contribs) - May 2007
17. 217.132.141.231 (talk · contribs) - May 2007
18. 89.138.215.232 (talk · contribs) - April 2007
19. 89.138.116.157 (talk · contribs) - April 2007
20. 217.132.234.44 (talk · contribs) - March 2007
21. 89.138.166.212 (talk · contribs) - March 2007
22. 85.250.173.2 (talk · contribs) - March 2007
23. 89.0.159.106 (talk · contribs) - February 2007
24. 89.1.146.35 (talk · contribs) - February 2007
25. SandyBMW (talk · contribs) - January 2007
26. 89.1.187.177 (talk · contribs) November 2006 - January 2007 (~ 13 edits)
27. MikeJason (talk · contribs) November-December 2006 (~ 14 edits)
28. Joshua1988 (talk · contribs) - September 2006 (~ 37 edits)
29. 68.236.30.36 (talk · contribs) - September 2006 (Philadelphia)
30. 89.1.187.215 (talk · contribs) August - November 2006 (~ 12 edits)
31. Jerusalem21 (talk · contribs) - March 2006 (~ 14 edits) (Wrote first version of article.)

→ (Earlier report in Archive 1.) — Athaenara ✉ 19:36, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

Related controversy at Talk:WorldNetDaily

See Talk:WorldNetDaily and its Talk:WorldNetDaily/Archive_1 for more furor involving Aaron Klein. The WorldNetDaily article does have a lot of citations of Terry Krepel's work, but I have questions about using blogs in a reference list. The credibility of both WorldNetDaily and ConWebWatch as sources might have to be checked out using WP:RS. EdJohnston 19:35, 28 January 2007 (UTC)

removed tag

I removed tag claiming 'factual accuracy' of the article is in dispute. There is not a single sentence that can be proven factually inaccurate. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.1.146.35 (talk) 16:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

This article is still awaiting printed references. Blogs and activist websites are not reliable sources per WP:RS. Until such time as good references are provided, the whole article must be considered unconfirmed, and the accuracy banner is fair. See Wikipedia:Accuracy_dispute:

The accuracy of an article may be a cause for concern if:

• it contains a lot of unlikely information, without providing references.
• it contains information which is particularly difficult to verify.
• in, for example, a long list, some errors have been found, suggesting that the list as a whole may need further checking.
• it has been written (or edited) by a user who is known to write inaccurately on the topic.

There are not even any printed sources for basic biographical details on Aaron Klein's life. It's not up to us to prove things accurate. If you want something kept in the article, document it. (This is from WP:V). EdJohnston 17:08, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Added sources/removed tag

Added third party sources to verify "constoversy" section. The links may be reprints of WorldNetDaily articles but they are published in Ynetnews, which is the website for Yediot Aharonot, Israel's largest circulation print daily. Also the original WorldNetDaily articles themselves are acceptable as third-party sources anyway as WorldNetDaily is not a blog but a news werbsite accredited by both the White House and the Israeli Government Press Office. WorldNetDaily articles would suffice here as 3rd party since this article is not about WorldNetDaily but Aaron Klein. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 192.118.11.112 (talk) 00:26, 20 February 2007 (UTC).

Hello 192.118.11.112. Since you've now been here a number of times, would you consider logging in with a regular account? The many apparently-furtive changes using different IP addresses give the impression you would like to make changes without being detected. (It's hardly likely that there are 23 different anonymous editors that all have the same point of view, and collectively edit only one article). It seems likely you are affiliated with Aaron Klein, or at least know him personally. It would make sense for you to take a higher profile on Wikipedia and step up to the plate as a real editor, with a name. You might then be in a position to make deals with the regular editors about the future of the article. It's hard for us to make deals with someone who logs in with a different account every week. EdJohnston 03:32, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

He returned as MikeJason (talk | contribs) to re-enact the same WP:COI edit, including removal of the {{Primarysources}} and the addition of a YNet reprint of a WND article, with the edit summary "signed in with an account name, now which deals do you want to make; this text is fine"—what do you suppose he's really after? — Athænara ✉ 13:20, 20 February 2007 (UTC)

Controversies

• " (diff) (hist) . . Aaron Klein‎; 22:45, 6 March 2007 (UTC)  (+1,618) . . 192.118.11.120 (Talk) (added controvercies [sic]; dont give me that crap it's not verified, it was covered by Fox News and others, do a Google search and stop erasing) "

There are several things wrong with this edit and edit summary.

• It added material which had been removed on the encyclopedic grounds that it had been in the article for many months without reliable sourcing.
• It included three additional links to the subject's website, which site is already in the external links section.
• It was accompanied by an uncivil edit summary which inappropriately attempted to require other editors to support the subject's conflict of interest edits.
• It was in violation of several Wikipedia policies and guidelines:

Wikipedia:Attribution

Wikipedia:Civility

Wikipedia:Conflict of interest

Wikipedia:Disruptive editing

Wikipedia:External links

Wikipedia:Neutral point of view

Wikipedia:Tendentious editing     … — Athænara ✉ 00:57, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

• " (diff) (hist) . . Aaron Klein‎; 13:37, 7 March 2007 (UTC)  . . (+1,618) . . 192.118.11.112 (Talk) (added stop erasing) "

"Editors should provide attribution for quotations and for any material that is challenged or likely to be challenged, or it may be removed. The burden of evidence lies with the editor wishing to add or retain the material." — Wikipedia:Attribution Policy (emphasis added) — Æ. ✉ 03:24, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

• " (diff) (hist) . . Aaron Klein‎; 14:24, 9 March 2007 (UTC)  . . (+1,618) . . 85.250.173.2 (Talk) (added, will add supporting links shortly and remove wnd links) "

Obtain Wikipedia:Attribution before adding. — Æ. ✉ 01:52, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Third party references were added from Investors Daily, National Review online and Yediot Aharonot. As already noted, even WorldNetDaily.com articles would suffice as a 3rd party sources since this Wiki article is not about WorldNetDaily, but one of its writers, who also writes for other publications and is heard on the radio. A browsing, for example, of Wiki articles for Fox News personalities finds many souces for material from Fox News' own reporting. A look at personalities from CNN finds CNN news online articles listed as 3rd party sources. This is legitimate since the articles in question are not about Fox News or CNN. Ragardless, third party sources were added to KLein's entry. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 89.138.166.212 (talk) 20:20, 10 March 2007 (UTC).

New paragraphs from User:Tkrepel seem to lack reliable sources

I suggest that User:Tkrepel's new material lacks the support of reliable sources, since it has to appeal to Conwebwatch and Worldnetdaily as references. Was the alleged bad behavior of Aaron Klein covered in any major media? Also, I don't see the interest to our readership of an extensive byplay between two political web sites with opposing views. We ought to be offering the basic biographical facts about Aaron Klein, and I think we've done that. Readers who are eager for more details can go to the respective web sites, that we list in the references. I'm not even sure that the section about 'Klein excluded from Syria' has enough interest to be included in Wikipedia, but I would consider recommending that we restore the version that incorporates that. The Pelosi story appears more substantive. And, from that we may surely conclude that Klein is no longer excluded from Syria. EdJohnston 06:06, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Allow me to throw myself in here. As the editor of ConWebWatch, I think that I offer legitimate commentary on Aaron Klein. (As ConWebWatch is narrowly focused on conservative news websites, I am probably the only person writing about Klein on a regular basis, so commentary about him by sources other than myself and WorldNetDaily is difficult to come by.) I think that my articles speaks for themselves; my claims about him are fully documented and supported, and they come from a journalistic perspective rather than an ideological one. The fact is that Klein is a biased reporter, and I would like to see that reflected in a way that balances out the current puffery of the article and, also, meet Wiki standards as well as attempts by Klein's sock puppets to delete any negative information about him. I would be happy to do what I can to help achieve a fully rounded bio of Klein. Tkrepel 04:37, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

At present ConWebWatch does not appear to meet Wikipedia's definition of a reliable source. See WP:RS. Our guidelines tend to regard most web sites as 'self published' and lacking the control of a neutral editorial staff. Since you follow the work of Aaron Klein, you may be aware of mainstream press coverage of his doings, and any quotes from the mainstream press that you find would serve as reliable sources. If the regular press doesn't cover Aaron Klein very much, then that is a vote on which items are notable enough to cover, and we should accept it. EdJohnston 15:01, 31 May 2007 (UTC)

To illustrate the problem of finding sources or references that appear in credible, third-party publications to improve this article, I searched Google News today with "Aaron Klein" as the search string.

Only two of the thirty four results were not direct links to the WND website.

Of the two exceptions, one did not duplicate WND content. The other said Klein broke a story "in the Yediot newspaper," which is Yedioth Ahronoth.

As veterans of this article know, Yedioth Ahronoth operates Ynetnews which (as in this case) reprints many WND stories. And so it goes. — Athaenara ✉ 05:07, 1 June 2007 (UTC)

added book section

Klein's books is his most high profile venture and absolutely deserves a section; it's been widely covered by the media, including newspapers, CNN, Fox News and celebrity gossip columns and television shows. As well, there is no debate as to the book title and subtitle. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.200.87.76 (talk) 04:20, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Birthdate

Last year, the information "born August 29, 1979" was added (15:35, 17 March 2006 UTC) and removed (00:19, 21 March 2006 UTC) by someone who was using the anon IP 195.93.60.34. I don't know how important it is. Any views on what should be done with it? — Athaenara ✉ 03:20, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

George Galloway

The Galloway story was reported widely on Fox News, including on 3 Fox News shows. It is not in dispute regardless of the reliability of WorldNetDaily -- the entire episode was recorded on audio played on Fox News and readily available on the Internet. The fiasco will be re-written to reflect a more Wiki-style but it would be unfair editorial practice to delete. You can instead suggest alternate phraseology. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.139.71.40 (talk) 20:23, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

This is the content discussed above:

Booted from British Parliament building

During an argument over whether Hamas is a terrorist organization, Klein was reportedly abruptly dismissed from the British lawmaker George Galloway’s London office and handed over to Parliament police. Galloway claimed Klein was a "Zionist operative" who had breached security by falsely presenting himself as a reporter. [1] [2]

The entire incident, which occurred in June 25, 2007, was recorded on audio tape. The fifteen minute sound file was released on the Internet and played on Fox News Channel. [3]

Klein interviewed Galloway along with national radio host Rusty Humphries. After Klein repeatedly referred to Hamas as a terror group during his interview with Galloway, the Scottish politician accused Klein of conducting a "political broadcast on behalf of the Zionist movement," stating "Hamas is a legitimate liberation movement." Galloway argued Hamas' suicide bombings against Israeli soldiers and settlers is morally justified.

The politician handed Klein and Humphries to the parliamentary police, who briefly detained the two until they could verify Klein and Humphries were reporters and not operatives that infiltrated parliament security.

The issue here is what is encyclopedic. Two of the three inline external links are to WorldNetDaily, the other is to The Jewish Press, for which Klein also writes, with almost exactly the same text. I searched for the Fox News Channel coverage which was claimed and could not find any except on the sites linked above and on blogs. — Athaenara ✉ 06:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Klein on Hannity's America

KLein's booting from British parliament was a major event covered extensively by Fox News Channel and dozen's of top U.S. radio shows with audiences in the millions. It absolutely deserves mention. Please re-load it. Regarding coverage, this blog detail's Klein's Fox interview: [4]

As well: 1) How can you unilaterally decide WorldNetDaily, a news website, is not reliable? 2) The event is not in question. The entire episode was recorded on audio tape. The audio is available within this article: [5] 3) The Jewish Press is a respectable U.S. Jewish newspaper and also reported on the issue. 4) You are using unfair criterea in ruling out WorldNetDaily on Klein's page. A brief review of other reporters pages finds multiple instances in which the only source is the very newspaper/website that employs the reporter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Israelafriat (talk • contribs) 00:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC) 5) Even if you view WorldNetDaily as an "extremist" website, which it is not, Wiki rules specifically state such a source IS allowed if the article is about/related to the source: "Extremist sources Organizations and individuals that are widely acknowledged as extremist, whether of a political, religious or anti-religious, racist, or other nature, should be used only as sources about themselves and their activities in articles about themselves, and even then with caution." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Israelafriat (talk • contribs) 00:46, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Forwarded message

89.138.145.173 posted the following message (diff) on my user talk page:

message to Athaenara

Dear Athaenara:

Since you seem to be regulating the page Aaron KLein, may I ask that you please add the below text to the section titled 'controversy' as I think it is a significant and bio-worthy update.

Obama

In February, 2008, Klein first reported Senator Barack Obama, a frontrunner for the Democrat presidential nomination sat on the board of a nonprofit organization, the Woods Fund alongside William Ayres, who was a Weathermen leader and has written about his involvement with the group's bombings of the New York City Police headquarters in 1970, the Capitol in 1971 and the Pentagon in 1972. [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11]

Klein also reported while Obama served on the board the Woods Fund granted funding to an Arab group Klein said mourns the establishment of Israel as a "catastrophe" and supports intense immigration reform, including providing drivers licenses and education to illegal aliens. [12]

The co-founder of the Arab group in question, Columbia University professor Rashid Khalidi, also has held a fundraiser for Obama. Klein detailed what he said was a relationship between Obama and Khalidi, whom Klein labeled as a harsh critic of Israel who has made statements supportive of Palestinian terror and reportedly has worked on behalf of the Palestine Liberation Organization while it was involved in anti-Western terrorism and was labeled by the State Department as a terror group.

Klein's piece gained U.S. media attention, including in the Jewish media, and was also widely criticized by the liberal media as "the first major swift-boating" of Obama, referring to conservative-led attacks against Presidential candidate John Kerry during the 2004 presidential election. [13] [14] [15]

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.138.145.173 (talk) 23:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

This page is the central location for discussing improvements to the Aaron Klein article, so I forwarded it here. — Athaenara ✉ 23:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Update: Seven minutes later, Special:Contributions/Jerusalem21 added the identical text (diff), removing the {{pp-semi-protected}} page protection template (note, however, that removing the template has no effect on the actual protection status of the page). Three minutes after that, Jerusalem21 added an additional paragraph (diff) with the edit summary "(punctuation changes)". — Athaenara ✉ 01:46, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Wow

This article in its current state is absolute garbage. It reads as a total puff piece and was obviously heavily influenced by Klein himself and cronies/sockpuppets at WND. Doubtless if Klein were more important or a better journalist prominent Wikipedians would be all over this article for its blatant NPOV violations. Are we SERIOUSLY allowed to use the phrase "the liberal media" now? However, this is not Conservapedia and people (like myself) are going to actually come to Wikipedia expecting objective information about this guy. I don't want to start an edit war or a giant flame war but this article needs some degree of compromise, because in its current state it is basically acting as nothing more than a conduit for Klein's questionably notable "journalism." It is in pretty clear violation of WP:SOAP and WP:NPOV (as well as the policy on autobiography/subject-added content), and unless anyone who is NOT Aaron Klein or one of his sockpuppets has any objections, I am going to be bold and make some changes in a day or two. Iamblessed (talk) 20:04, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I encourage you to go ahead and propose any improvements to this article. If you use the Talk page to give us a general idea of the changes, that will put you in a good position should later controversies arise. (We may be able to point to a Talk page consensus, if such a consensus can be worked out). Since the article is semi-protected, it may be easier to defend it against promotional editing than before. (Last year a set of IPs was adding material that was promotional of Klein, hardly ever the same IP twice. See #Single purpose accounts above). If you do make some revisions and then it turns out that, once again, people affiliated with the subject come forward to slant the article content, a posting at the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest/Noticeboard remains possible. EdJohnston (talk) 20:52, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the article is in serious need of editing for neutral point of view policy compliance. A comparison of Talk:Aaron Klein/Archive 1 posts and the article history also shows that, while there once were several neutral editors helping out here, the number seemed to drop to a mere two in the past year. Another - more! - needed and welcome. — Athaenara ✉ 06:50, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Criticism / Accusations of Plagiarism

Fellow Zionist Debbie Schlussel has accused Klein of plagiarism, among other things:

Aaron Klein Watch: WND's Plagiarist Rips Off Schlussel Again, Book Plagiarized Schlussel, Israeli Newspapers, Fabricated the Rest

--Kitrus (talk) 06:33, 3 October 2008 (UTC)