Talk:St Paul's Cathedral

Little evidence given that the Germans targetted St Pauls specifically in 1941. From 6 miles up targetting anything so small was a bit of a hit and mostly miss afair. However St Pauls stands in the heart of the financial district known as the "City of London" which was certainly a stategic target.

Does anyone know what the quote "Ask not for whom the bell tolls. It tolls for thee." means to St. Paul's Cathedral?

It has nothing to do with St Paul's per se; it is a line from a poem by John Donne, who was Dean of St. Paul's in the early 17th century (i.e. before the fire; his monument is one of the few which survive from the old St. Paul's. Doops | talk 06:45, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Design

I remember watching a TV programme a couple of years ago about the building of the cathedral (which was mainly about the astonishing level of corruption in public life at that time - the foreman of the works was paid peanuts, but made a large fortune out of the building). The approved design had (I think) a smaller dome with a tower on the top, and Wren kept the dome covered up until it was built so nobody could object to his preferred but rejected design until it was too late. However, I have no evidence for this other than my leaky memory, and church architecture isn't my thing. Does anyone else know more? --Andrew Norman 12:52, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

Betch Elizabeth is dum

Found some information about this on the BBC website, and I'll add it now. --Andrew Norman 15:30, Apr 21, 2005 (UTC)

I remember seeing a TV programme which mentioned a story about the crest of a Phoenix on the portico of the south end of the cathedral (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b3/StPaulsCathedralSouth.jpg). I'm not sure how accurate this is, but Wren asked a workman to find a piece of stone to be used to mark out the centre of the dome on the ground during construction after the original burnt down. The workman returned a piece of a gravestone with RESURGAM on it. Apparently this is Latin for "I will rise again", and this inspired the Phoenix crest with the word Resurgam written underneath it, also appropriate as a Phoenix is supposed to rise from the ashes. Would this be worthwhile on the main page?

Fakelore, pure embroidery.--Wetman 14:15, 9 October 2006 (UTC)

Well, the phoenix and the word "Resurgam" are certainly there - I saw them from the top of a bus recently - and deserve a mention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 171.192.0.10 (talk) 12:58, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

Name

St Paul's Cathedral spells it St Paul's and not St. Pauls on their website... I was going to move the article to either St. ... or Saint ... but apparently the Dean of St Paul's refers to it as St Paul's. Pedant 2005 July 2 03:07 (UTC)

On sourced footnote

says wren had doubts there was a temple to Diane on the site - Kruger, 1943

the reference isnt mentioned at the bottom of the page - suggest removing the footnote... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.122.105.54 (talk) 17:07, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

tax

Anybody have a useful source to hand so we can supply the details about the coal tax used to fund the construction? Doops | talk 06:43, 9 October 2005 (UTC)

Photographs

This model of St Paul's Cathedral at Legoland Windsor is made from Lego bricks (as is The London Eye in the background).

I have removed this image from the article because I am unsure about its copyright status, and it doesn't "fit" in the Historical Images gallery. I've placed a similar example (with a PD status) in line with all the other images. Just as an aside, the actual building is unusual in that it's an extremely good photographic subject, but very difficult to capture in its entirety. I wonder if we can find an image from after the Blitz when much of the surrounding buildings were levelled, or maybe a moderen aerial photograph? --Surgeonsmate 17:48, 13 January 2006 (UTC)

I've moved a contemporary image out of the Historical Images gallery. I really like the way that the Historical Images gallery gives a series of views of the history of the building, especially the way Wren's design replaced the rather grim-looking Old St Pauls. Perhaps it is overkill to have another gallery for modern images, what do others think? --Surgeonsmate 11:52, 28 January 2006 (UTC)

Date of completion

Where does 20 October 1708 comes from? According to the Cathedral's official site, it was completed on 1710. User:Ejrrjs says What? 08:57, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

I'm not an expert on St Pauls (though I'd like to be!) and every source I can find on the web says that completion was in 1710, when the architect's son laid the topmost stone on the lantern, the building being from bottom to top, rather than the more usual east to west for a project of this size. (Building east to west meant that the completed portions could be used before the whole was complete, the usuable space growing progressively larger.) See the BBC article.

We're going to look right gooses in 2009 if the 300th birthday party (complete with royal attendance, set of stamps, opening of Pret a Manger in the basement etc.) hasn't happened yet and we say it should have been in 2008. Perhaps our authority will be so immense by that stage that the Cathedral administration will bring the party forward, but this remains to be seen. --Surgeonsmate 17:11, 5 February 2006 (UTC)

The victory service for Marlborough's victory of Oudenaarde was held at St Paul's in 1708. Queen Anne, whose statue now stands outside, and Sarah (M's wife) had a blazing row in public on that occasion. The dome might not have been finished by then.

Listing

There's no online database of current listed buildings, but there is one of images of buildings which were listed as of 2000 - it's here: [1]. St Paul's is shown as "Grade A" for some reason - I have no idea what that means, I thought the listings were always numbers (Westminster Abbey is Grade I). --ajn (talk) 16:35, 14 February 2006 (UTC)

Height

Does anyone know the height of St Paul's?

365 feet, according to http://www.virtualtourist.com/.

Standing over 355 feet says http://stpauls.co.uk// (search for "feet" and read the 1710 article).

This image from that same site says 355.5 feet: http://stpauls.co.uk/images/cut-away.gif The discrepancy (from 365 feet) looks like it might be the height of the cross atop the ball.

Atlant 21:53, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Please give measurements in metres and feet please - wikipedia is not just for Europeans —Preceding unsigned comment added by AsparagusTips (talk • contribs) 15:34, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Legend of St Paul's?

Well, not a legend per se...

I briefly heard a saying in my history class, stating that if St Paul's is detroyed, Britain would follow. Did I hear this correctly or is that attributed to a different cathedral?

Colosseum. The rooks of the Tower of London. --Wetman 20:35, 26 April 2006 (UTC)

WW2 bomb damage

The article says that the cathedral survived despite its being struck by "a" bomb, and in essence this is true. However, this BBC article says that on both 10 October 1940 and 17 April 1941, bombs did cause quite severe damage to the building, but that hasty cleanup work was done to preserve the myth of St Paul's "indestructible" status. Should that be mentioned here? Loganberry (Talk) 13:10, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

I think I'd like another more direct source for this, as it's essentially second or third hand without the sort of details you really need to be sure.Alci12 14:44, 31 May 2006 (UTC)

New picture from the south please

The scaffolding is coming down from the south front now. Does anyone have a recent photo of that side to replace the begrimed pre-restoration one that's currently at the top of the article? Wimstead 14:03, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

I've added a photo which was taken this week. It's viewed from Paternoster Square. I agree the previous photo was horrible! Looked so dirty. Wjfox2005 15:42, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, this replacement photo is not good. It might not have much scaffolding, but with just an angled view of the dome with encroaching columns, it doesn't really show the cathedral at all. -- Solipsist 18:23, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Of interest, might be the construction work taking place on the east side of the Cathedral, this has opened up a view that has not been seen since the war, and will disappear completely soon. Unfortunately, I didn't have a camera with me. Kbthompson 18:34, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

I only had my mobile with me, but how about

• Image:St Paul's East End1.jpg
• Image:St Paul's East End2.jpg
• Image:St Paul's East End by night.jpg

The best angle would probably be from teh middle of Cheapside, but I'm not sure you'd actually last long enough to take a photo. If the gates to the construction site are open there's also a potetnially reasonable view, but it depends what machinery they've got in at the time. David Underdown 19:50, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

1549 mob iconoclasm?

I deleted a reference to a supposed incident in 1549 in which a preacher at Paul's Cross was supposed to have instigated some sort of mob iconoclasm at St. Paul's. I'd be quite interested to see a source for this claim, if it's in fact true. ThaddeusFrye 06:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:StPaulsCathedral.jpg

Image:StPaulsCathedral.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

— Save_Us_229 22:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC) there is a church which you can drive oder no yes it makes fun! :) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.52.120.185 (talk) 10:26, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

Remains from Old St. Paul's

Is anyone aware of what happened to those bodies buried along the walls of Old St. Paul's after the fire? Were these remains re-interred in the new building? Non of the sources seem to deal with how this was handled. 69.14.38.16 (talk) 02:02, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Roman Catholic

Regarding the description: "earlier buildings Roman Catholic"; it's far too simplistic. Most Anglicans would disagree with the idea that their church was once Roman Catholic. The idea put forward, that the church changed denomination, is an anachronistic view of the real situation, that the church in England separated from the church in Rome. The term "Roman Catholic" is a nineteenth century one, meaning Catholic but not Anglican, and it shouldn't be applied to a period before the reformation. It would be more sensible to note only the current denomination and to leave the history of the Church of England to the relevant articles. --Lo2u ^{(T • C)} 17:56, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Eight Melodies?

I heard that the boys sung that song on that unreleased North American and Europe of Mother series. According to the track, it was sung by one of the St. Paul's Cathedinal Choir, which means this article. I'm not sure if this is the right article or not, but I do know that they sang that song for the Japanese audience. My apologies about my grammar, but I was just reminding you guys. --Girla PurpleHeart (talk) 19:10, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Name of the Cathedral

In the introductory paragraph, the name of the building was changed to "London Cathedral". I have changed it back to St Pauls, for the following reason.

The correct name of the building is Cathedral Church of St Paul the Apostle. Hence it would be fair to say in the opening line; "The Cathedral Church of St Paul the Apostle, more commonly referred to as St Paul's Cathedral...". However, to say; "London Cathedral, more commonly referred to as St. Paul's Cathedral..." does not make sense. "London Cathedral" is neither the official name of the building, nor a commonly used name; I have never seen or heard it used. Using "London Cathedral" is irrelevant, and merely confuses things. MinisterForBadTimes (talk) 14:40, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Speaking of which, can anyone shed light on why the term "London Cathedral" has never been used? Similarly, the Dean is known as "Dean of St Paul's", not "Dean of London". Does anyone know how this distinction arose? Other English deans are known by the name of the cathedral's city. Anglicant (talk) 06:08, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

The district known as the "city of london" is quite small, and liable to be confused with the town of london which has many millions. For comparison the adjacent district which is the city of westminster is sufficiently unique to have a bishop named for it. The dean would thus have to be "The Dean of The City of London". However Deans define there titles not wiki users. JDN

Added image to Artists section

Added a new image of the dome to the artists section and gallery-ized it with the existing image. It seemed like the most appropriate section to add to, but may have cramped the text a little. DP76764 19:56, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:St Paul's Cathedral/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Starting review.Pyrotec (talk) 22:36, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Initial review

The article is quite easy to read and is well illustrated, so I do not expect many problems in these two areas. The main problem is likely to be WP:Verify. The "Previous cathedrals" section is devoid of citations. The first half of the "Descriptions" is thin on citations, as is "Memorials", "Modern Day", and "Organists".

I will start the GAR, proper, tomorrow; but I suspect the article may have to go On Hold at some point until the citations are added/resolved.Pyrotec (talk) 22:52, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

On hold

The article is now on hold due to lack of in-line citations in the majority, but not all, of the sections within the article, i.e. a non-compliane against WP:verify. Pyrotec (talk) 23:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

GAR

GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   B. MoS compliance:

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   Some.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   A significant proportion of the sections are unreferenced,

   C. No original research:

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   B. Focused:

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   None of the problems identified at the start of the On Hold period have been addressed, or even started to be addressed. Article, therefore is marked as Fail.20:24, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

MAJOR DEFICIENCY

What are the dimensions of the dome? Lucas Brown (talk) 23:58, 8 December 2008 (UTC)