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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 24.80.104.39 (talk) at 02:15, 19 May 2009. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

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Reference [22] not anymore available

This reference should be removed or a new one found. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.243.137.56 (talk) 12:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]


"change wording, per MeteorMaker's objections"?

I wonder, what objections is Jayjg referring to when he made this change, with the edit summary "change wording, per MeteorMaker's objections"? I have certainly not objected that the article should say "or northern Samaria" instead of "also referred to as Samaria". If I have made an objection, it's that it should be made clear that "Samaria" is Israel-specific terminology. There is no consensus for that highly misleading edit and it should be reverted. MeteorMaker (talk) 10:50, 24 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You alleged that None of those sources say that the term "Samaria" is sometimes used. That appears to be your own conclusion. Based on your complaint, I removed the phrase you were complaining about, and any pretext for claiming OR. Speaking of OR, your claim that "Samaria" is Israel-specific terminology has been conclusively disproved. Jayjg (talk) 03:39, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Scroll down a little for the demolition of that claim. Instead of resorting to proof by assertion, try and find one source that actually says what you are trying to prove, that "Samaria" is used outside Israel. I remind you that there are scores of reliable sources that prove you wrong here, and thousands more may be added. Also, kindly refrain from blatant misrepresenting of other editors' positions and from making misleading edit summaries in the future. MeteorMaker (talk) 07:26, 25 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In this unrelated edit in the same article, I admit I was wrong about the existence of a consensus (though the edit in itself was fine). Now, you might have thought your edit summary correct too, the first time. However, I informed you that your wording was not "per MeteorMaker's objections" and still you didn't correct it. It was reverted two times, and both times you reinserted the false claim, with even more outlandish edit summaries [1][2], totally contrary to WP:AGF. Also, there was never a consensus for your edit, so it would be appropriate if you reverted it yourself. MeteorMaker (talk) 18:08, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This bogus edit summary seems to hit a new low for editorial dishonesty, finger-in-the-eye arrogance, and deliberate disruption.

There is currently a case before Arbcom about this entire hoax. I'd suggest not wasting further energy here, or on any article talk page.--G-Dett (talk) 00:43, 26 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

illegal / unauthourized outposts

I tried looking for this issue in the archives but could not find something directly relevant. I've changed the wording from illegal outposts to unauthourized outposts since this term is disputed / misleading. The Sasson Report deals with the outposts and adds criteria it uses that might make an outpost illegal, but the Sasson Report itself is not binding or the legal policy of the Israeli government. The Israeli government itself does not have specific criteria for what an illegal or legal settlement, except for those locations that the courts have managed to deal with. For instance, Amona is an outpost, but only the houses that were destroyed were deemed illegally built. --Shuki (talk) 20:05, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are many WP:RS that call these settlements illegal settlements, including the WP:RS that you removed from the article.

If you want to rename them in this article, then find a WP:RS that supports this terminology. You are not a WP:RS. Factsontheground (talk) 23:56, 28 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did you even read the Sasson Report? The cover page itself states that it is an interim report about unauthorized outposts. There is also absolutely no use of the term illegal in the entire 343 page report. Please stop introducing fictitious terms into wikipedia articles to push your POV on the subject. This seems to be your alternative way to call settlements illegal - POV that has not succeeded otherwise. --Shuki (talk) 22:36, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yes I have read the report but no, it is not the only WP:RS that deals with illegal settlement outposts.
You will find that the majority of WP:RS, in particular news agencies, use the "illegal settlement" terminology. Factsontheground (talk) 22:53, 29 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They are often referred as "illegal" precisely because they are "unauthorized," in Israel, not because any international court or court of public opinion has passed judgment. Most of the RS will in fact use both terms. "Unauthorized," however, is the clearer and more accurate term as user:Shuki points out. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:01, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not sure if this is a reliable source, and not meaning to complicate things, but this says Lieberman "... is committed to expanding illegal Israeli settlements in the West Bank." [3] The Indypendent. Israel’s Killer Election. April 17, 2009. By Jaisal Noor and Arun Gupta
And here's a source stating that settlements are considered illegal under international law. "International law considers Israeli settlements on the occupied West Bank and occupied east Jerusalem illegal." [4] International Middle East Media Center. This Week in Palestine -Week 17 2009. ☺Coppertwig (talk) 21:56, 25 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The fact that the outposts are illegal is not disputed. The Sasson report found "A continuing, bold, institutionalized law violation" in the growth of the unauthorized outposts. The report was "interim" in nature because the investigation of several agencies could not be finalized in the time allocated. Page 19-20 of the Hebrew version (linked above) contains four mandatory criteria for authorizing any settlement in Judea, Samaria, and Gaza. Number two on that list required that there be a proper state title to the land. Sasson cited the High Court's ruling in the Elon Moreh case. It was based on customary international law (Hague IV Convention) restrictions on the military administration. The report states: "I must emphasize: an unauthorized outpost is not a "semi-legal" outpost. Unauthorized is illegal." The report goes on to say that building outposts on private Palestinian property is absolutely prohibited and in some cases constitutes a felony. The report also explains that the Israeli High Court of Justice had ruled that the Commander of the area must protect the fundamental rights of the Palestinians in Judea, Samaria and Gaza and that an establishment of outposts on Palestinian private property causes an intolerable prejudice to the right of possession recognized in the Basic Law: Human Dignity and Freedom. Here are some links to the English summary at UNISPAL, the Prime Minister of Israel's Communications Office, and the Ministry of Foreign Affairs harlan (talk) 14:51, 3 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court

In 1998, the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs noted that the draft Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court included a provision that classified the transfer of civilian populations to occupied territories as a war crime. see The International Criminal Court - Background Paper. The prohibition did not depend upon the provisions of the Fourth Geneva Convention, since the statute cited both the laws and "customs of international law".
That same year, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs reported that a number of its own eminent legal authorities had determined that the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights did not apply to the situation in the "occupied territories". The covenant applies to all individuals within Israel's territory that are subject to its jurisdiction. Israel questioned whether individuals resident in the "occupied territories" were indeed subject to Israel's national jurisdiction, and stated that the Covenant had been developed in the context of a normal relationship between a state and its "internal population". see Summary record of the 1675th meeting : Israel, 21/07/98, CCPR/C/SR.1675
In 2000, the editors of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights' Palestine Yearbook of International Law 1998-99 observed that the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries had adopted the Rome Statute. They noted:
"in particular, that Article 8, which provides that the "transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory" amounts to a war crime. This is obviously applicable to Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Arab Territories."
See the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court, 1998, Done at Rome on 17 July 1998. Entered into force on 1 July 2002, United Nations, Treaty Series, vol. 2187, p. 3-7
In 2004, the ICJ advised the General Assembly that any measures taken by an occupying Power in order to organize or encourage transfers of parts of its own population into the occupied territory were prohibited. The court characterized the measures adopted by Israel with regard to Jerusalem and the settlements as "illegal". see paragraphs 120 and 122 of "Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory".
In 2004, the Israeli Supreme Court, sitting as the High Court of Justice, stipulated that Israel has been holding the areas of Judea and Samaria in belligerent occupation, since 1967. The court held that the International Law of Occupation contained in Hague IV, of 1907, is applicable. see Beit Sourik Village Council v. The Government of Israel, HCJ 2056/04
In 2005, the Sasson Report underscored the fact that Israeli state officials had always facilitated the establishment of settlements in the occupied territories by providing funding, water carrier and utility connections, and etc. harlan (talk) 09:36, 6 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Harlan, can you explain what point it is that you are trying to make? Jayjg (talk) 04:12, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
The legal arguments regarding the Sasson report, or the applicability of the Geneva Conventions, do not apply to the decision of the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries. It's one thing to characterize the settlements as illegal, it's another thing to adopt a new international statute that makes them illegal. The Plenipotentiaries adopted the recommendations of the International Law Commission for the Rome Statute, and it has subsequently been ratified by a sufficient number of states. The Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights is a WP:RS source who have noted that the Statute "is obviously applicable to Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Arab Territories."
The Statute contains a provision, in Article 8, that lists the transfer, either directly or indirectly, of population from the occupier's territory into occupied territory as a war crime. When Israel signed the agreement, the MFA legal adviser stated that:

When we signed, we added a political declaration. I know that it's been reported in the press that Israel signed with a reservation with respect to various elements in the statute which are problematic. The statute doesn't permit reservations, because we're talking about the statute of an international court, so clearly it has to be a document that stands on its own, without anything that could derogate from its legal effect. International Criminal Court - Press Briefing by Israel Foreign Ministry Legal Advisor Alan Baker

The other citations illustrate occasions when the government of Israel has claimed the territories are occupied. harlan (talk) 06:35, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
According to which reliable source is it the case that "The legal arguments regarding the Sasson report, or the applicability of the Geneva Conventions, do not apply to the decision of the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries."? Please bring sources discussing the Sasson report, Geneva Conventions, and the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries, and making that same argument. Jayjg (talk) 02:33, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
In my earlier post, I was writing about the "personal observations" offered by users Shuki and Tundrabuggy with regard to the Sasson Report. The Supreme Court of Israel has ruled that customary international law is part of Israel's common law, and that the Hague regulations are domestically enforceable. For a complete discussion of the domestic application of conventional (contractual) international law vs. customary international law see Chapter 2 of The Occupation of Justice, by David Kretzmer and Israel Yearbook on Human Rights 1979, By Yoram Dinstein, starting at page 347, and Human Rights in the Israeli-occupied Territories, 1967-1982, By Esther Rosalind Cohen., pages 86 and 156.
Those sources say that in 1979 the High Court ruled that privately-owned Palestinian land could only be requisitioned on a temporary basis by the military commander of the region under occupation, and that the authority for such orders is derived from applicable international law. The court ruled that unless a settlement was the direct result of military planning and necessity, it was illegal on the ground that it would otherwise violate the Hague regulations. The court also ruled that the military could not create facts that would outlive the duration of its occupation regime. The government issued an administrative regulation that same year proscribing the expropriation of privately-owned land for settlements. The Sasson report revealed that settlements had subsequently been built, or expanded, on privately-owned Palestinian land without the required military planning and approval. Those settlements are illegal because they violate the terms of customary international law.
Ha'aretz recently reported on a Defense Ministry database that showed many settlements from the Sasson report had been built illegally on private Palestinian land. The gentleman who compiled the datatbase, Baruch Spiegel, said that government legal experts had been employed in the creation of the database. Spiegel mentioned that the settlements were "illegal", not merely unauthorized. The article mentions portions of the Ofra outpost, which the High Court of Justice ordered to be razed. see "Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement" The Jerusalem Post also reported on the Ofra structures, and quoted a spokesman for Defense Minister Barak and the state's representative, attorney Avi Licht as saying the construction of the houses and their occupation were illegal. See Barak: I won't demolish Ofra houses now. see also A third of settlements on land taken for 'security purposes'. harlan (talk) 09:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
If you read the Hebrew, then you now understand why Sasson differentiates between unauthorized and illegal. What hurts the credibility of her report is that A) it's in first person and B) alleged claims of prejudice were proven when only a few years later in the 2009 Israeli elections, Sasson ran on the anti-settlement left-wing New Movement-Meretz party slate. --Shuki (talk) 15:04, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
You said that the term illegal wasn't used anywhere in the 340 page report, but of course the report actually said that: (1) "Unauthorized is illegal" (no distinctions whatever); (2) that there was widespread lawlessness, and (3) that in some cases the unauthorized conduct was a felony.
The local law of Israel is based upon public international law. The Hague regulations state that private property will not be confiscated, and admits no exceptions whatever. Public lands can only be requisitioned under conditions of absolute military necessity. The Sasson report explains that the four steps which are necessary for the military commander's approval are accumulative.
While discussing the property rights of Israelis living in Samaria or Judea, and those evacuated from the Gaza Strip, the Court explained all of that:

"This property right is limited in scope . . . most Israelis do not have ownership of the land on which they built their houses and businesses in the territory to be evacuated. They acquired their rights from the military commander, or from persons acting on his behalf. Neither the military commander nor those acting on his behalf are owners of the property, and they cannot transfer rights better than those they have. To the extent that the Israelis built their homes and assets on land which is not private ('state land'), that land is not owned by the military commander. His authority is defined in regulation 55 of The Hague Regulations. . . . The State of Israel acts . . . as the administrator of the state property and as usufructuary of it . . . " (Id., paragraph 127 of the opinion of the Court).
... ...
B. The Normative Outline in the Supreme Court's Caselaw
1. Belligerent Occupation
14. The Judea and Samaria areas are held by the State of Israel in belligerent occupation. The long arm of the state in the area is the military commander. He is not the sovereign in the territory held in belligerent occupation (see The Beit Sourik Case, at p. 832). His power is granted him by public international law regarding belligerent occupation. The legal meaning of this view is twofold: first, Israeli law does not apply in these areas. They have not been "annexed" to Israel. Second, the legal regime which applies in these areas is determined by public international law regarding belligerent occupation (see HCJ 1661/05 The Gaza Coast Regional Council v. The Knesset et al. (yet unpublished, paragraph 3 of the opinion of the Court; hereinafter – The Gaza Coast Regional Council Case). In the center of this public international law stand the Regulations Concerning the Laws and Customs of War on Land, The Hague, 18 October 1907 (hereinafter – The Hague Regulations). These regulations are a reflection of customary international law. The law of belligerent occupation is also laid out in IV Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War 1949 (hereinafter – the Fourth Geneva Convention). see HCJ 7957/04 Mara’abe v. The Prime Minister of Israel harlan (talk) 17:21, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

Lead

How about changing the lead as below to eliminate the contentious parts and associated refs ? Seems simpler, more neutral and possibly more stable.

Israeli settlements are communities inhabited by Israelis in territory that was captured during the 1967 Six-Day War. Such settlements currently exist in the West Bank , which is partially under Israeli military administration and partially under the control of the Palestinian National Authority, and in the Golan Heights, which are under Israeli civilian administration.

Sean.hoyland - talk 17:45, 9 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Possible Arbcom Request

As a matter of general public policy, section 504 of the IRS code discourages tax exempt organizations (like the Wikimedia Foundation) from carrying on political propaganda campaigns. In that connection, the EU Council has decided to prohibit dissemination or distribution of material condoning, denying or grossly trivializing crimes as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Articles 6, 7 and 8) directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin, and crimes defined by the Tribunal of Nüremberg (Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal, London Agreement of 1945) directed against a group of persons or a member of such a group defined by reference to race, colour, religion, descent or national or ethnic origin. Member States will ensure that these conducts are punishable by criminal penalties of a maximum of at least between 1 and 3 years of imprisonment. see Framework decision on Racism and Xenophobia.

Many editors do not seem to be aware of the EU Council decision. For example, Wikipedia has a multitude of Israel-Palestine related articles that contain examples of those sort of statements. Although there have been a number of requests for Arbitration on Israel-Palestine related issues, there doesn't seem to be a published guideline, going-forward, that spells out the policy and procedure to follow when an editor trivializes an action directed at Israelis, or Palestinians, that falls within the Rome Statute or Nüremberg Charter prohibitions. That could result in Wikipedia being blocked over controversial content.

For example, Israel's courts and civil administrations have ruled or reported that government officials have helped construct settlements on illegally expropriated privately-owned Palestinian land. Up to a third of the settlements have been built in this way. That violates the Rome Statute for the International Criminal Court articles: 8(2)(a)(iv), and 8(2)(b)(viii). Israel's participation in the ICC treaty is not a factor, since other states have the right to vest universal jurisdiction in their own national courts over war crimes. see the ICRC List of Customary Rules of International Humanitarian Law, Rule 157. Many supporters of the settlements ignore the court decisions and insist that they are not illegal.

The Nuremberg Tribunals established beyond question that individuals can be brought to trial in international criminal proceedings for violations of the rules of customary international law. see United Nations and International Criminal Law, Johan Van Der Vyver

In 1993 the UN Security Council "acting under Chapter VII of the Charter on the United Nations" approved a report made by the Secretary General which concluded beyond doubt that the law applicable in armed conflict as embodied in the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949 and the Hague Convention (IV) of 18 October 1907 had become part of international customary law. Breaches of the principles contained in the conventions were subsequently placed within the competence of an international criminal tribunal charged with prosecuting the responsible individuals. see Security Council Resolution 827, 25 May 1993, the commentary with regard to customary law in the UN article on The Statute For the International Criminal Tribunal for the Former Yugoslavia, and War crimes law comes of age, By Theodor Meron, page 212.

When a possible conflict arose with the national law of the Federal Republic of Germany, the Tribunal drew attention to the obligations of states under the Security Council resolutions and repeated the self-evident principle of international law that states cannot invoke their own municipal laws as a basis for avoiding their international obligations. see International Law Reports, By E. Lauterpacht, et. al. page 8

In 1995 the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries met to debate, crystallize, and codify international criminal law in the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court. see Sources of International Law – The Place of Treaties. The Statute mentions the Geneva Conventions in Article 8. "War crimes". Those provisions are declaratory of custom which is binding on all parties in an armed conflict. States that do not ratify the Rome Statute can only opt-out to the extent that the various provisions therein do not form a part of international customary law. See the briefing on the Harvard Program on Humanitarian Policy and Conflict Research, International Humanitarian Law Initiative: The Legal status of Israeli settlements under International Humanitarian Law.

In 2000, the editors of the Geneva Academy of International Humanitarian Law and Human Rights' Palestine Yearbook of International Law 1998-99 observed that the United Nations Diplomatic Conference of Plenipotentiaries had adopted the Rome Statute. They noted:

"in particular, that Article 8, which provides that the "transfer, directly or indirectly, by the Occupying Power of parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies, or the deportation or transfer of all or parts of the population of the occupied territory within or outside this territory" amounts to a war crime. This is obviously applicable to Israeli settlement activities in the Occupied Arab Territories."

Also see ICRC List of Customary Rules of International Humanitarian Law, Rule 130: States may not deport or transfer parts of their own civilian population into a territory they occupy.

The International Court of Justice and the Israeli High Court of Justice have repeatedly ruled that the Palestinian territories are under belligerent occupation, and that Israel's acts in the territories are subject to the limitations placed on the acts of a belligerent occupant by customary international law. In the 1979 Elon Moreh Case, the Israeli High Court ruled that privately-owned Palestinian land had been expropriated for the purpose of establishing Israeli civilian settlements in breach of the articles annexed to the Hague Convention of 1907. The court ruled that a military government is not permitted to create facts that are designed to persist after its temporary rule in the area has ended. The Occupation of Justice, by David Kretzmer, page 39

Ha'aretz recently reported on a Defense Ministry database which showed that many settlements mentioned in the Sasson Report had been built illegally on private Palestinian land. The gentleman who compiled the datatbase, Baruch Spiegel, said that government legal experts had been employed in the creation of the database. Spiegel mentioned that the settlements were "illegal" (not merely unauthorized). The article mentions portions of the Ofra outpost, which the High Court of Justice ordered to be razed. see "Secret Israeli database reveals full extent of illegal settlement" The Jerusalem Post also reported on the Ofra structures, and quoted a spokesman for Defense Minister Barak and the state's representative, attorney Avi Licht as saying the construction of the houses and their occupation were illegal. See Barak: I won't demolish Ofra houses now. see also A third of settlements on land taken for 'security purposes'.

Despite lengthy discussion of these facts on the Israeli Occupied Territories and Israeli Settlements page, many editors continue to demand that the articles should say the territories are "disputed" and not under military occupation. They also have reverted edits and insist that the illegal outposts are merely "unauthorized". WP:NOTADVOCATE states that content hosted in Wikipedia is not: Propaganda, advocacy, or recruitment of any kind, commercial, political, religious, or otherwise. harlan (talk) 08:22, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well said. Sean.hoyland - talk 11:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Commendable analysis, as one invariably expects from you Harlan. While the legal situation is clear, as you underline, the precise way in which editors pushing their nationalist POV, as many do, in violation of WP:NOTADVOCATE, are in the wrong technically in wikipedia's self-referential framework of rules, is not so clear. They could say in their own defence that they only follow WP:RS that endorse their POV (i.e. the minority international and Israeli official dissent from many of these judgements). They might say further that to prove your point before Arbcom you cannot produce evidence in violation of WP:NOR. Virtually everything done by Israel in the West Bank and Gaza is in violation of international law. But there is no tribunal of enforcement, possession is 9/10s of the law in practical terms, and, for Wikipedia, following so many sources that would ignore, as do many amicable states, these elements of international law, the situation may be described according to sources, nothing more. One of the ironies of the PA/Hamas fracture is this, the PNA is prepared to overrule the strict application of international law, by a treaty between the two parties which would override the prevailing legal situation as you describe it. Hamas, whatever its other designs, is not. Very convenient. In the breech, settlements continue.Nishidani (talk) 13:04, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing in this section violates WP:NOR guidelines. There are published secondary sources that support everything I've said here, and compiling facts is WP:NOTOR.
The underlying issue is really very non-technical. Materials condoning, denying or grossly trivializing crimes as defined in the Statute of the International Criminal Court (Articles 6, 7 and 8) are ipso facto illegal in many EU jurisdictions. By definition, they should not be cited as WP:RS sources.
States and individuals cannot claim sovereign immunity for acts that violate customary international law. The sanctity of private property - in accordance with the law of nations - has been recognized as common law in US Courts ever since the United States vs Percheman case in 1832. Plaintiffs can pursue claims for damages here in the Federal District Courts under the Alien Tort Claims Statute. Here are some examples of lawsuits which have cited violations of customary international law: In Re South African Apartheid Litigation and the 8 billion dollar Swiss Banks Settlement: In re Holocaust Victim Assets Litigation. There have been criminal investigations of both Palestinians and Israelis in several EU countries. The last investigation that I heard about was this report in the Jerusalem Post: Norwegian lawyers: Extradite Olmert, Livni, Barak harlan (talk) 14:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Requested Policy Clarification

Since those editors who repeat the stuff in wikipedia you find everyday in major newspapers, from the New York Times, to Haaretz, from the Washington Post to the Jerusalem Post, do so by clipping stuff from precisely these sources, it extremely doubtful whether, unless you can show precedent, why the anonymous POV-pushers of an encyclopedia which no one controls could be held, in the front line, to standards most of the world's press, and many of its lamentably distinguished 'statesmen' (read thugs) endorse through ignorance or out of considerations of power. (2) Your point refers to content, and Arbcom never rules, in principle, on content, and therefore is not responsible either. I hate to defend an encyclopedia's capacity to retain trash, one that in the I/P area is often nothing more than a dumping ground for ideology or sub-neanderthal historiography (nothing against homo floriensis in that however), but this, concretely, is what I think is problematical in the point you raise. Nishidani (talk) 15:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I must sadly voice my disillusioned opinion and agree with Nishidani. The likely outcome of taking this to the ArbCom is that you'll get indef-blocked too. Excellent work on the sourcing as always, but Wikipedia will only hate you for it. MeteorMaker (talk) 21:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not trying to stop POV-pushing. Most I/P article issues have nothing whatever to do with either the Rome Statute or the EU framework on racism. I'm not suggesting that Wikipedia should start a new process to self-censoring itself either. Wikipedia already has existing policy guidelines that address article content and talk page discussions - and a WikiProject dedicated to Israel Palestine article Collaboration. The Nuremberg Charter and Rome Statutes contain a very specific list of major crimes. Content or materials which trivialize genocide, crimes against humanity, or war crimes is highly offensive (so much so that it is against the law in many parts of the world to post on public websites). Even if editors attempt to disguise those sort of ideas as encyclopedic material, they are well outside the implied WP:NPOV, WP:Civil, and WP:NOTADVOCATE guidelines for article content and discussion. I don't think it would be harmful to mention the EU framework on racism, add a link to it in the references section of the applicable Wikipedia guidelines, and ask that those policies be clarified in order to settle this particular recurring dispute.
Nishidani, each of the newspapers that you mentioned have published stories about the illegal outposts or their court-ordered removal. I'm not sure which type of precedent you have in mind. The ADL welcomed the EU legislation criminalizing incitement to racism. The Jones v. Toben case is an earlier example of the application of hate speech law to the Internet in pursuance with an Australian statute. There have been war crimes complaints, hate speech arrests and lawsuits, as well as court-ordered Internet filtering and take down orders in several EU states and in English-speaking countries - including the UK, Canada, New Zealand, and Australia. All of those countries have similar hate speech and war crimes laws. The EU Framework page specifically mentions their member state's obligations under the the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949, Protocols I and II of 12 December 1977, and the two Chapter VII Resolutions of the United Nations Security Council. Those resolutions established the International Criminal Tribunals (827/93 Yugoslavia and 955/94 Rwanda) and the status in customary law of the Geneva Conventions. see 3 Content at Joint action to combat racism and xenophobia.
Here is an example of the way this issue relates to the Israeli settlements. Plundering private or public property was one of the crimes mentioned in Article 6 of the Charter of the International Military Tribunal appended to the London Agreement of 8 April 1945. The Hague IV Convention prohibits the confiscation of private property. The Rome statute defines "extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly" as a war crime. The EU Framework criminalizes public denial or trivialization of the crimes defined in Article 6 of the Charter and the Geneva Conventions. Several years ago Ha'aretz published an article explaining that in the Jewish settlement of Matityahu East (adjacent to Bil’in) private entrepreneurs were constructing entire buildings without permits on misappropriated Palestinian land. The State Prosecutor’s Office had been notified, but nothing was ever done about the situation. The article also mentioned that nothing had been done about the recommendations contained in the Sasson report. see There's a system for turning Palestinian property into Israel's state land. Section 4.1 of The Canadian Crimes Against Humanity and War Crimes Act, S.C. 2000, c. 24 stipulates that crimes defined by the Rome Statute are violations of customary international law and are indictable offenses within Canada:

Interpretation — customary international law
(4) For greater certainty, crimes described in Articles 6 and 7 and paragraph 2 of Article 8 of the Rome Statute are, as of July 17, 1998, crimes according to customary international law. This does not limit or prejudice in any way the application of existing or developing rules of international law.

The same Canadian statute also stipulates that crimes against humanity has been a recognized offense under customary law since the London Agreement came into force, and that the customary law contained in the Rome Statute, paragraph 2, Article 8 includes the Geneva Conventions:


PARAGRAPH 2 OF ARTICLE 8
War crimes
2. For the purpose of this Statute, "war crimes" means:
(a) grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions of 12 August 1949...

Under section 320.1 of the Canadian Criminal Code, a judge has the authority to order the removal of hate propaganda from a computer system that is available to the public. see Online Hate and the Law. A complaint has been filed in the Superior Court of Montreal against two Canadian businesses accusing them of indictable offenses under the Canadian war crimes statute. The complaint asks for 2 million dollars in damages and restoration of the property. The complaint alleges that the firms conspired with Israeli state officials and acted as their agent in the construction of settlements for Israeli citizens on Palestinian land near the village of Bil'in. see Montreal firms used as fronts for Israeli settlements, activists say and the Complaint. harlan (talk) 01:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Trivializing War Crimes

Customary international law is something very specific in international law. Usually, customary international law excepts for crimes of genocide or piracy, has a prerequisite that all sides agree to it especially sides that are involved in the dispute. In fact, except for these jus cogens issues of genocide and piracy, agreement of all parties is the fundamental basis for international law. This is why the ICC is only applicable to countries that have ratified its agreement. This is why the ICJ taking on the advisory opinion of the West Bank Barrier was so fundamentally wrong and opposed by legal scholars and by many nations in the U.N itself. This is why the UN doesn't make international law by a voting in the GA, nor even in the SC except in very specific instances of using military force, unless all parties have agreed to such law. Personal property law in the U.S and the status of the settlements is something completely different. Israel can assert, and legal scholars do so, that the entire region is Israel's according to international law going back to the Balfour Declaration, the San Remo conference and the terms of the mandate, and by many other techniques. International law is a flexible concept open to interpretation. Sadly, Israel instea d of asserting its rights under international law tried to compromise over the years out of naivety that it might work. The Arab countries and anti Zionist people (mostly Jews ironically) kept pushing the fringe concepts in international law in the hope of demonizing Israel. This has to a large extent worked, but has made a travesty out of many U.N instiutions to the the point that international law has become a joke, a tool by Israel's enemies to attack it. The last conference on Racism is a good example of such travesty. It is today acknowledged that international "law" as defined by block voting of countries the U.N is not lawful nor moral nor of interest. Again, the purest form of international law is consent. If Israel disputes anything, as long as it doesn't do something truly horrific like genocide, and this was supposed to be a very rare and limited exception following the Holocaust (before WW2 the only customary binding law was probably piracy), then it doesn't violate international law. I think the articles cite many eminent legal scholars who believe Israel is being lawful in all territories. Scholars like Julius Stone. If it doesn't, it should. 216.165.95.70 (talk) 18:41, 2 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In 1944, Raphael Lemkin coined the term genocide to describe a foreign occupation that destroyed or permanently crippled a subject population. The use of colonists by an occupying power to dispossess the indigenous inhabitants was part and parcel of Lemkin's definition of the crime of genocide. see Empire, Colony, Genocide, By A. Dirk Moses and Key Writings of Raphael Lemkin on Genocide. He studied both early and modern instances of colonialism and came to the conclusion that the practice is inherently genocidal. see Raphael Lemkin’s History of Genocide and Colonialism, United States Holocaust Memorial Museum, Center for Advanced Holocaust Studies.
He also observed that the use of propaganda to rationalize the crime; appeal to popular beliefs and intolerance; sow discord (divide and rule); and to misrepresent or deceive others about what was really happening was an integral part of the process of genocide. see Item #5 on the list under Lemkin's Methodology starting on page 88. I believe your post is a good example of propaganda. It implies that only persons of low intelligence, or persons with questionable motives believe that Israeli government officials and private citizens have engaged in criminal conspiracies in order to expropriate Palestinian property and resources in breach of international laws. In fact, the issue is no longer in any doubt, since the Courts in Israel, the Sasson Report, the Israeli Defense Ministry database, and the ICJ have all reached the conclusion that many of the settlements and outposts are in fact illegal for that very reason.
Lemkin wrote a book about the laws of Occupation and spoke out about "The Problem of the Colonists". He said the problem was specific because many thousands of them had settled on properties of dispossessed persons. He noted that even if they had not voluntarily assisted the enemy in acts of dispossession, that fact still would not provide them any valid title to the property on which they were settled. He wrote that in cases where colonists had been settled on state property, the legal problem remained the same. The occupant has the right only to the usufruct of real property belonging to the occupied territory. He has no right to dispose of such property or to convey title to other persons. see Axis Rule in Occupied Europe: Laws of Occupation, Analysis of Government, Proposals for Redress, By Raphael Lemkin, Carnegie Endowment for International Peace, Division of International Law, 1944, page 45
Julius Stone died in 1985. His writings do not address the legality of the outposts outlined in the Sasson report or the Defense Ministry database. Most of his legal theories no longer reflect the law or the facts on the ground. He felt that the question of the legality of the Jewish settlements on the West Bank reflected the tensions of the parties to the peace process, more than the actual magnitude of any demographic movement. Today there are several hundred thousand more settlers living in the Palestinian territories. Stone readily admitted that insofar as Israel's position in the West Bank is merely that of an occupying power, Article 49 would forbid deportation or transfer of its own population onto the West Bank whenever that action had the consequence of serving as a means of impairment of the economic situation of the native population of the occupied territory. see page 15 of INTERNATIONAL LAW AND THE ARAB-ISRAEL CONFLICT The UN law experts assigned to investigate the issue of implantation of settlers agreed. They concluded that the practice violated several human rights norms (jus cogens). see the Final Report on Human rights and population transfer.
There have been a number of attempts to end or prohibit the practice of colonialism, including the adoption of article 49(6) of the Fourth Geneva "Civilians" Convention; the obligations accepted by member states under The Declaration Regarding Non-Self-Governing Territories Chapter XI, Article 73, of the UN Charter, the Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples - resolution 1514 (XV), and the Rome Statute of the ICC.
The UN Security Council wasn't making international law. It was simply acknowledging the existing state of customary international law, and affirming that it was binding on the member states in international criminal tribunals. Opting-out of the ICC has no effect on the enforcement of customary international law. All states possess the right to vest universal jurisdiction in their own national courts for war crimes. See Rule 157 of the ICRC List of Customary Rules of International Humanitarian Law. The creation of the ICC did not alter that fact. Most states have their own complimentary war crimes statutes which establish the crimes contained in paragraphs 6, 7, and 8 of the Rome Statute as domestically indictable offenses. See Database of National Implementing Legislation.
Plundering private and public property was a violation of international law before the Hague Convention of 1907 codified the proscription against the practice. Paragraph 6(c) of The Charter of the Nuremberg Tribunal merely recognized that fact and declared the practice to be a war crime. The Charter also stipulated that persecuting a population while committing one of the war crimes was a crime against humanity. War crimes and crimes against humanity are universally recognized as violations of peremptory norms, or jus cogens. Extensive destruction and appropriation of property is also listed among the grave breaches of the Geneva Conventions that were included in the list of war crimes in the Rome Statute. harlan (talk) 16:23, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A note on the terms "Judea" and "Samaria"

Usage of the terms "Judea" and "Samaria" in article space appears to contravene 3 key Wikipedia policies: Naming Conventions, Undue weight and Neutral Point of View. [5][6] A large body of evidence [7][8] has been collected during extensive discussions (see list below) that unequivocally shows that these terms, alone and in combination, are almost entirely peculiar to Israel. As of today, no sources, reliable or otherwise, have been put forward that contradict this finding.

Discussion links (most closed, included for reference only):

MeteorMaker (talk) 16:35, 4 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

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Shouldn't there be a section on this wiki page concerning the funds Israel receives and uses from the United States to pursue its settlement activities?

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