Talk:Silvio Berlusconi

This article had considerable disputes about whether it achieved NPOV. It has now been updated to try to solve those debates. If you feel that the article is biased or inaccurate, please add a section with specific problems to the end of this page where it can be discussed and a better form can be found.

belusconi's relationship with a minor

I quote what is currently writen in the article from the last sentece in the "private life" section: "I cannot stay with a man who frequents minors".[5] It was reported that Veronica Lario was referring to Berlusconi's relationship with 18-year-old Noemi Letizia.[6][7]"

first, even if Veronica Lario said such thing (though, correct me if i'm wrong, she didn't refered to minors, she refered to other women in general since the Noemi controvercy came after her public annoucement), Berlusconi's intimate relationship with this girl, Noemi; has not been proved yet. Please, correct this and do not take as references articles from newspapers such as la Repubblica, known for making lies (an example is saying that Pope Benedict XVI was part of hitler's youth when young) and Il Corriere della Sera for being impartial, even more regarding that the european elections are near.

thank you 93.34.50.11 (talk) 09:52, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Pope Benedict was part of Hitler's youth, although that's irrelevant to this article. 24.1.30.186 (talk) 04:39, 3 June 2009 (UTC)energyturtle

^------ Above obviously written by a member of Berlusconi's communications staff.

Please show proof that la Repubblica [is] known for making lies.... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.239.43.241 (talk) 12:30, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

So even Wikipedia makes up lies? Anyway, does Il Messaggero (another Italian newspaper) have enough credibility, or is it another bunch of communists? [[1]] (third paragraph stating "[...] non posso stare con un uomo che frequenta le minorenni» riferendosi alla partecipazione del premier al compleanno in discoteca di una diciottenne, Noemi Letizia." ("[...] I cannot stay with a man who frequents minors» referring to the participation of the premier to the birthday party in a disco of an eighteen-year old, Noemi Letizia.")

Il Messaggero has no link with the left; its property (Caltagirone family) has made his fortune with construction building, as Berlusconi did, and they have familiar links with the UDC centrist, demo-christian party, former Berlusconi ally. Anyway, that phrase was reported on any media in Italy. --Dans (talk) 20:39, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Question

Berlu was on French TV a few days ago, and I was shocked by his command of the French language. It's basically flawless. Perfect grammar, astonishing vocabulary, and near perfect pronunciation. Granted, speaking French when you're Italian is not exactly a huge challenge (and vice versa, because French and Italian are closely related languages). But it looks to me as though Berlusconi lived in France at some point in his life. Anyone has any info on this? Thanx! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.58.147.83 (talk) 17:06, 9 May 2009 (UTC)

Was it dubbed?24.1.30.186 (talk) 04:40, 3 June 2009 (UTC)energyturtle

He always studied French, as people did in Italy once. By the other side, his command of English is not really great.--Dans (talk) 20:42, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

He studied at La Sorbonne too. Yes, it would be interesting to put into the article, but I don't have references and I should find them on the Internet, but he is very proud of it and he is used to remind his "years in France" when he meets a French motherlangue. On You Tube there's also an interview with Berlusconi on Nessma TV in French (search Berlusconi Nessma)

Wrong sentence

One of the first sentences is wrong: "Berlusconi has twice held office as prime minister of Italy, most recently from 2001 to 2006". He was president for three times because in 2005 the governament fell but after that he led another one (the third one) from 2005 to 2006. Paolotacchi (talk) 17:47, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I removed a second wrong sentence, according to which he winned the 2008 elections "with a large majority". This is wrong because his party was voted exactly by 36,66% of electors and 47% of voters, according to the official site of the Italian Home Affairs Ministry. So he is leading a minority government, which can rule only because he previously modified the electoral law. In fact, in past times, the relative majority party needed to find allies to reach almost the 51% of representation in the Parliament. Eric —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.53.113.106 (talk) 13:23, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

"because he previously modified the electoral law..." That's not correct and also illogical, since to modify the electoral law you have to govern and if he governs because he modified the electoral law .... how could he modify the law? The electoral law was modified a number of time by a number of governments. Saying "he leads a minority government" is either a tautology and at the same time wrong: he leads a majority goverment since it has been approved by the majority of the parliament. Voters are not important here because the Italian institution is conceived differently. And it is from more than 60 years. No party can be "Majority" and never has been in all the Italian Republic history (there are more than two parties, hence having a single one more than 50% is practically impossible). Please be correct at leat with aspects that has precise formalism nd definitions. Don't play with words and number to sustain a political champaign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.81.199.93 (talk) 08:09, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Vandalism

The following sentence was deleted without any valuable reason: "He is unanimously recognized as the best politician of the world of every time". User:PravoSlav.

WTF?! --M4gnum0n (talk) 14:24, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

So it should, its a POV sentence Ijanderson977 (talk) 15:37, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

The only truth is, that Berlusconi called himself so, he reconized only Napoleone to have done more than him, and these are his words not mine.. truly, in 2001 he was claimed to be the best, the most intelligent, the more hard-working man of the world, and his supporters often thinked really he was so. This was mainly before the 2001 elections. But even so, the sentence could be the stuff thinked by his supporters, surely not the 'absolute truth'.— Preceding unsigned comment added by User:Stefanomencarelli (talk)

Berlusconi in fact IS the greatest living politician, he did not hesitate to rubbish the arrogant U.S. great leader Führer president. He is not frightened by the U.S., and therefore the Europeans love him. --84.141.3.164 (talk) 12:40, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

They mispelled the word criminal, and instead wrote politician, other than that the sentence is perfectly true.

References

I tried to diminuish them and I succeeded, but something has gone wrong. the numbers starting beneath no. 18 belong to no. 33. Can somebody please correct? I can't fix that 11347TCroa (talk) 16:31, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Austerlitz -- 88.72.20.61 (talk) 23:34, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

done --dvdb 20:13, 10 April 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dodo von den Bergen (talk • contribs)

Travaglio

The parenthetic remark, '(who is a columnist of the left official newspaper l'Unita)' is POV because Travaglio is a classical right-leaning liberal who does indeed contribute to Unità, but also to La Repubblica and to Corriere della Sera. While true therefore, it gives the impression he is writing from a leftwing ideological perspective Nishidani (talk) 07:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

You are right, so go and correct it.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 07:42, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Already had corrected it before noting down my edit here. Unfortunately there is much to correct, and I don't know if clearing every edit here beforehand would prove functional. If I find anything really controversial, I hope to register the problem here beforehand though.Nishidani (talk) 21:36, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

Matter from orig.lead to be trimmed down and reintroduced or relocated

I have excerpted the following from the lead, which was far too long, like the article itself. I suggest the key points lacking in lead be written briefly from this. The rest of the material can be integrated into the relevant section of the page.Nishidani (talk) 08:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

In economics, Berlusconi has endorsed conservative policies, such as lowering taxes and generally placing fewer constraints on enterprise, in an effort to encourage growth. In foreign policy, his views have been strongly pro-American, even at the expense of causing some damage to relations with other European countries. In particular he supported George W. Bush in the U.S.-led 2003 invasion of Iraq, and though constitutionally impeded from taking part in the war, sent a contingent of Italian troops to join the "Coalition of the willing" , in a peacekeeping role. In several key social policy areas, the Berlusconi government has implemented a conservative, rather than a liberal, program by passing stricter laws concerning immigration, artificial insemination, and drug use.

Considerable controversy surrounds both the constitutional legality of his television network, and its role in his political success. According to Berlusconi's adversaries, the Mediaset (Fininvest's media division) TV channels have played a crucial role in his political success by airing propaganda during news or other information-oriented programming. His supporters assert that the networks have always maintained a neutral political stance. After Berlusconi's election as Prime Minister, the left accused him of also abusing his position as premier to control the publicly owned RAI TV channels. In practice, they maintain, this permits him to control almost all TV sources of information, while the right insists that the RAI channels are, if anything, biased in favor of the centre-left. According to independent observers, two of the State channels (Rai 1 and Rai 2) had been indeed controlled by Berlusconi's government, while Rai 3 managed to retain independence and a critical stance. Such control, in a famous example, was displayed when Berlusconi called Member of European Parliament Martin Schultz a "Nazi kapo", and the Rai 1 news program showed the incident with no audio and offering a misleading account. Political debate in Italy has become rather alienating, as the contenders often seem to completely lack a shared information source regarded as neutral and reliable. Although Berlusconi officially resigned from all functions in his commercial group in 1994 upon entering political office, he is the largest shareholder and is believed to retain at least some control.

Assistance in disentangling this for a thumbnail précis would be appreciated Nishidani (talk) 08:41, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Here it would be appropriate to cite the phone call between Berlusconi and the RAI administrator Saccà:

http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettaglio/Pronto-Silvio-sono-Sacca/1917587

--Pokipsy76 (talk) 10:22, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

That should go in (there is also an audio link, I believe) but in an appropriate section on his Conflict of Interest in the Media (which would include the Bulgarian Edict etc., the power to hire, intimidate asnd fire journalists who do not toe the line, also in Public Media). My problem with the article is not so much the general content, but its organization, which is episodic rather than thematic. For example, we have 'The Economist' but in May 2001, a whole series of Western mags and newspapers, El Mundo, El Pais, Der Spiegel, Le Monde etc., made similar comments. Hence we need a section along the lines of 'Foreign Newspaper Criticism', as we need one on 'Diplomatic Incidents'. This is going to take some work and patience. Regards Nishidani (talk) 11:09, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Silvio Berlusconi's Stance on the EU

Does anyone know what his views on the European Union are? I think this should be part of the article, especially with the upcoming vote on the Treaty of Lisbon. I would appreciate if someone added this to the article. Thank you. Artur Buchhorn (talk) 21:20, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

I can only tell you that the general consensus is that SB doesn't have any views on most things beyond his business calculations, but is ready to accommodate every view, depending on necessity, political lobbies etc. His major ally, the Northern League, was historically opposed to the E.U., since it wants regional devolution along the lines of Catalan. Under the influence of Giulio Tremonti, the economist, who was against the E.U. in the 90s but has now changed tack, the E.U. will be supported for (1) its potential as a legislative and economic block to put pressure on fair trade, perhaps tariffs on esp.Chihnese goods, and (2) for stricter immigration laws and collective border policing of the Mediterranean. Whether they join America ('I agree with American policy even before it has been formulated' SB) in using the Eastern E.U. newby block to create havoc, is unknown. They will, however, press for a E.U. repositioning of traditional geostrategic diffidence with GWB's aggressively 'pro-active' interference in the oil-producing Arab world, and will eliminate the slightly pro-Arab, pro-Palestinian traditions of Italy diplomacy, in line with Merkel, Sarkozy, and others. I will try to find something on this when it emerges, to include it.Nishidani (talk) 09:38, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid to say, but it's true. Our government apparently has no clue how to do a 'serious' and responsable guideline'. The stuff is so unbeleavable, but true. It seems Berlusconi (or Cai admins, or both) now is on the way to marry (sell?) Alitalia/Cai to Air France, the same company called as inadeguate (to defend 'italianity') last spring. And in the same time, it seems he wants to do the same thing to Lufthansa, that has shown no interest. This could be umbeleavable, but it results by a lot of sources, and to be more accurate, it's almost sure Cai will be merged in Air France-KLM. It's only one of the many things that are happening now, in these days. In Italy the things are getting worse and worse quickly, economy is a mess, the glorious Nord-Est (the Italy 'economic engine') is falling apart. In the same time, we have the Villari issue, the war between Salerno and Catanzaro judges (with the highest policians involved to this time, a really dirty thing), the Gelmini's school reform (strongly adversed) ecc,ecc. A lot of 'hot stuff' and apparently the government has no idea how to face it. And just three months ago, Tremonti was saying 'look, Italy is not seriously endagered by economical crisis'. Last days, insthead, Sacconi leaved a word: default. He told about italian economy, do you have the clue? So we are swiftly fallen in the troubles, and nobody have done something to avoid this catastrophe. I am very afraid to say it, believe me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.104.203.102 (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Please stop this sistematic bulshitting!

• CAI/Airfrace issue cocluded with Airfrace as minority holder (that's different that selling to Airfrance, and say "bye byeanyone")
• "economy is a mess, the glorious Nord-Est (the Italy 'economic engine') is falling apart" Provide sources. Facts are that this is not a NorthEsat fact. It's a problem for the entire world. And That SB increased cosensus in 2009 regional elections. Fell free to don't like it, but don' spread your shits againt honest Italy. Shame on you! Have respect to the people that are providing 75% of your sustain.
• "the war between Salerno and Catanzaro judges" cannot be addressed by the government, since judes are independent. And you're are prrobaly one of the same person who start to cry every time a right wing deputy speacks about justice. Two weights, two misure. Very objective!
• "the Gelmini's school reform (strongly adversed)" is really adversed only by extraparlamentar self-defining "social centers" and from a bouch of 30 to 40 year old students and professors of one-student ony courses. "Real" students (who spend their days in reaserces and on books to graduate on time) have no clue in adversing it.
• "So we are swiftly fallen in the troubles, and nobody have done something to avoid this catastrophe" I don't see any catastrophe. Only a slow-down of certain activity due to difficulties from banks to give credits. May be you are one of the people who's suffering for this, but you cannot extend your personal trouble to the entire Italy.

Is he PM now?

Has Berlusconi taken over as PM yet? It`s been a while since the election. --Oddeivind (talk) 08:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

No. Or at least if he has, it's rather stunning that Corriere della Sera has not seen fit to make it a big headline (I've been scanning the headlines recently, not so much reading the stories in depth -- check it out at http://www.corriere.it, if you can read a little Italian). --Trovatore (talk) 08:26, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

The correct term for the next week or so is 'Italy's Premier-elect Silvio Berlusconi'. Shortly, the text may resume the wording used rather prematurely before it was, with pedantic rectitude, contested as inappropriate to this interim.Nishidani (talk) 08:59, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a "premier-elect". --Trovatore (talk) 16:49, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

I Italy the population votes for the Parliament, not for the President of the Council, which is elected by the President of the Republic (not by the citizens). See the Italian Constitution. Paolotacchi (talk) 13:24, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, of course, I know. I just thought it was strange that it takes som much time before he takes over. --Oddeivind (talk) 15:43, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

So what should we do? It's very easy to check here on the institutional webpage [2]. All the English Wikipedia is wrong about italian cabinets. Paolotacchi (talk) 13:25, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Very few English speakers are likely to count the outcome of a cabinet reshuffle as a new term in office, even if you can argue that it legally is. We should say that he's been PM twice before, but with a note about the cabinet reshuffle. That's what I've done. --Trovatore (talk) 18:28, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it really anyone that count a cabinet reshuffle as a new time as prime minister?? As long as he remains in office without a break, that is clearly one single term in office. Thus, he will now be a PM the third time. --Oddeivind (talk) 14:21, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, I don't know about the "without a break" formulation -- I think if there's a new parliament, even without a different PM, I would probably count that as a separate term. --Trovatore (talk) 17:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing to invent in the count. This is the official count Governi Italiani. We can't have "opinions" about it. The next one will be the 4' Berlusconi cabinet. Paolotacchi (talk) 20:43, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

It will be the fourth cabinet, but that is not necessarily the same thing as Berlusconi's fourth time in office. --Trovatore 20:45, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

What would be the difference? And moreover: the article on the history of Italian cabinets is completely mistaken. Paolotacchi (talk) 13:40, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

What article is that? As far as I know, there is no article called history of Italian cabinets or history of Italian governments or list of Italian cabinets or list of Italian governments. Nope, they all came up red. What we do have is a list of prime ministers of Italy. Prime ministers, not governments. This will be, by the way most people are going to be counting, the third time Berlusconi has been prime minister, even if it's technically his fourth government. --Trovatore (talk) 15:51, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

By that logic, Gordon Brown is in his second term with his shuffle. A new cabinet is not a new term. Therequiembellishere (talk) 22:19, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was referring to the article list of prime ministers of Italy (the title too is uncorrect, because in the Italian Constitution there isn't the idea of "Prime" minister). Moreover the count is uncorrect (you can verify it at the link to Governi Italiani) and it doesn't matter if abroad the most of people don't know how we count the Presidents and their cabinets. The most of Italian Wikipedians write "perchè" instead of "perché", but not for this reason "perchè" becomes correct. Paolotacchi (talk) 07:42, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Dear Therequiembellishere, there is a big difference between Italy and the United Kingdom. Every time that a PM forms a new government there are a new oath of office and a vote of confidence in Parliament, so that only at that point the new term starts. Italian PM is a very weak figure: he cannot fire his ministers and thus reshuffle the cabinet. --Checco (talk) 11:23, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

This is because Italian PM does not exist. It's not a Premier, but only a President of the Council of Ministers. Paolotacchi (talk) 16:41, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Exact date?

I just heard on the news (BBC) that Berlusconi has taken over as prime minister, but according to the information here on Wikipedia he toook over on the 8. of May. What is the correct date? --Oddeivind (talk) 06:33, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

8 of May, when he did the oath in front of the President of the Republic who named/elect him. Paolotacchi (talk) 21:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The 1989 Ammnesty and Berlusconi's Perjury Conviction

Berlosconi's perjury conviction was commuted by a 1989 amnesty he passed for that purpose. I can find no specific information on that law. The economist says that the law commuted his perjury conviction. This would mean that the convictions stands. I think that his status as a convicted perjurer is of equal importance to his ownership of newspaper companies, under npov —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.96.148.42 (talk) 05:21, 7 July 2008 (UTC) The conviction has been changed to extinguished with no explanation. As the economist uses commuted, which has a different meaning I shall change it back.93.96.148.42 (talk) 01:50, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

In Italy, when an amnesty is passed, the wrongdoing is considered EXTINGUISHED even if a conviction has already been sentenced.

The 1989 amnesty was voted by more than 2/3 of the MPs... It was strongly wanted by the Italian Communist Party to avoid investigations over the money coming from the Soviet Union to their italian cousins. The Economist knows it very well, but it avoided deliberatedly to make it clear. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.80.197.101 (talk) 14:56, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Could you please provide more details of this ammnesty, and how criminals qualified for it, perhaps add a link, as I have been unable to find anything about it.

As I understand it, an Italian Amnesty does not extinguish an Italian Conviction in the USA, and other juristictions, and wikipedia is an International encyclopedia.

93.96.148.42 (talk) 00:06, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply: what you have written is absolutely a nonsense... In Europe even if a scottish court rules "something" it is not automatically "guaranteed" that the english counterpart would accept the "order" from the scottish one -and Scotland and England are parts of the United Kingdom- and you argue that "an Italian Amnesty does not extinguish an Italian Conviction in the USA"? Italy is not an american colony, these two legal systems are COMPLETELY different!!! The italian legal system was heavily influenced from fascism, therefore in Italy is almost as you are guily until innocent, not innocent until guilty... The only link you can find is in the italian wikipedia definition of amnesty:

Amnistia

...

L'amnistia [dal greco <αμνηστία> (<amnīstía>), "dimenticanza"] è una causa di estinzione del reato e della pena, e consiste nella rinuncia, da parte dello Stato, a perseguire determinati reati. Si tratta di un provvedimento generale di clemenza, ispirato, almeno originariamente, a ragioni di opportunità politica e pacificazione sociale, ma a volte degenerato nella prassi in strumento di periodico sfoltimento delle cause pendenti e anche delle carceri.

Mentre l'amnistia estingue il reato, l'indulto estingue solo la pena: quest'ultimo perciò non comporta una sentenza di assoluzione.

SHORT TRANSLATION: the amnesty extinguishes wrongdoing (It. reato) and sentence (It. pena) -and sometimes it obliterates both-; the pardon (It. indulto) "commutes" a sentence instead, but does not "extinguish" the wrongdoing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.225.39.135 (talk) 14:00, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

You misunderstand my point. Berloscuni was found guilty by an Italian Appeal court of Perjury. In someway he qualified for an amnesty. how did he qualify for the ammnesty, and how does it relate to his perjury? Did Rapists qualify as well? I can find no details of the particular amnesty that he qualified for. As I understand it, there is no argument that he did not commit perjury. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.140.0.29 (talk) 21:10, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Given the agreement here, I shall restore mention of his perjury to the lead.93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:48, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Removed bad edit

I removed an irrelevant sentance added by an unregistered user with IP: User:122.108.71.31 which also resulted in a broken link. IÅI 09:31, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

Broken references

The references in the 'Bettino Craxi' section are totally broken. For example, the article text 'including the Prime Minister, immunity from prosecution while in office2.' links to the reference section, and apparently is intended to point at the reference 'Technically, Berlusconi has been sworn in four times because after a cabinet reshuffle, as happened with Berlusconi in 2005, the new ministry is sworn in and subjected to a vote of confidence.'

Which is completely wrong, as it says nothing at all about immunity. This is not surprising, because when I look at the source for this section, I see wikimarkup which looks like "^{[[#References|2]]}". Needless to say, this is the stupidest and most broken reference style I have ever seen, and the other examples in that section are just as painful to look at. I couldn't bring myself to see whether the rest of the article is infected with this stuff. --Gwern (contribs) 15:18 23 July 2008 (GMT)

But WTF???? Are you trying to write a biography instead of a simple and concise biographical article??? That's longest than Nixon's one!!!

Catholic?

I don't think he is catholic. I'd delete that information as italian wiki had done.--93.149.140.61 (talk) 15:32, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Apologies from an Italian user

Hi! I'm an Italian user. I want to apologize for the behaviour of our prime minister about Obama's election. I hope you don't think that every Italian person is like him, because I swear they are not. I also hope you'll forgive me if I don't sign. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.59.0.27 (talk) 17:14, 8 November 2008 (UTC)

Answer for another Italian user

I think all of this "apologizements" are ridiculous. You hear SB talk and also hear the people laughing in the room. It was clear to ANYONE it was a joke. You can dislike the joke, you can think it was not good, but you don’t have any right to take it seriously as an “expressed opinion” with all the shitty theory of “racism” and whatever else. That phrase only means no “race” exist, just an ephemeral colorization not to take seriously care of. If you cannot understand it, that’s your problem. Not SB or Obahma problem. Many people ask SB to excuse for that. But not Obahma himself. So why do he should? Are newspaper opinionists superior to Obahma itself? As an Italian user I have to excuse the world for as many Italian ingnorants and Italian communist having “one way only understandment” of everything. Connect your brain and shut up!

1) Wikipedia is not a Forum

2) No personal attack are allowed

--Pokipsy76 (talk) 17:06, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

Uhmmm... why not say the same also to the preceding post ? I find them two be equally offensive. Hence: none or both ! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.225.149.12 (talk) 18:12, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Not only Berlusconi... Robin Williams: Obama is a tan Kennedy

As Italian, I want to apologize for the US comedian Robian Williams, who said that: <<Obama is a TAN Kennedy.>>...
Don't you believe it? Watch it: http://it.youtube.com/watch?v=oEFR-eYaot0
Silvio Berlusconi: a nice wild bunch of people all in just ONE PERSON!!!!!!!!

Dubious phrase

Does anyone know who the phrase:

Some of his former prosecutors are members of the parliamentary opposition

refers to?--Pokipsy76 (talk) 13:42, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Answer

Yeah: Gerardo D'ambrosio at first... Plus Antonio Di Pietro.
But they are not the only ones... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.201.64.7 (talk) 13:46, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Deleted informations

Some information have been deleted by an IP with the motivation

Redundant. If you are MP it is obvious that you work as legislator. IMHO it is better not to start a list that could comprise more than 50 MPs

But this motivations are pointless:

1. There is no redundancy: it's not obvious at all that if you are both a lawyer and a legislator then you work to change the same very specific laws involved in your trials, that's rather strange
2. There is no list to be started, it was cited the most prominent individual which had been prosecutor and political rival of Berlusconi.

On this ground I claim that the informations should be reinserted.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Information deleted (2)

It is already clearly written that there are some of Berlusconi's lawyers who are MPs and MPs ARE legislators, so it is redundant.
About citing Antonio Di Pietro: I know that Berlusconi and Di Pietro are "two faces of the same coin", like Batman and The Joker because weren't Di Pietro Berlusconi never had the opportunity to enter politics, but if you cite Di Pietro you should cite some of Berlusconi's attorney too... More: Di Pietro was only a washer in a bigger clockwork, IMHO Di Pietro is NOT the most prominent political rival of Berlusconi who was a prosecutor too. Maybe Gerardo D'Ambrosio -with Francesco Saverio Borrelli and Luciano Violante- is a more prominent political rival of Berlusconi than Di Pietro and he is a former prosecutor too.

1. It cannot be redundant to add informations which are not obvous and not implicit in what is already "clearly written".
2. There is no one of the Berlusconi's lawyers and of Berlusconi's former prosecutor which has a political role which is remotely comparable with Di Pietro which is the leader of a politcal party and is one of the most popular people in italy (D'Ambrosio , Borrelli and Violante aren't leader of anything, never appear on the mainstream media and very few italian people know what is their activity or even know them)

I am Italian and I am surely aware of who is or is not prominent here.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 08:56, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

About D'Ambrosio and Violante

I am sure that Antonio Di Pietro is one of the most notorious former prosecutors in Italy, but I am sure that D'Ambrosio and Violante are two of the masterminds of strategies who devised the Mani Pulite plan and the fact that they appear rarely on the media means only that they can plot very well. Di Pietro has never played a strategic role, he is only the leader of the parliamentary opposition towards Veltroni's Parliamentary Opposition: he is the opposition of the opposition and has always sympatized for the Movimento Sociale Italiano, the heir of the Partito Nazionale Fascista, therefore he could not have a strategic role in a plot formed by Magistratura Democratica with the help of former communists and prosecutors like Luciano Violante and Gerardo D'Ambrosio.
Even Violalante and D'Ambrosio wrote pieces of legislation, so what??? All the MPs are legislators, thererefore it is a very redundant information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.203.11.220 (talk) 12:54, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

1) Luciano Violante has nothing to do with Mani Pulite

2) Your theory about the D'Ambrosio is irrelevant here: it makes sense to cite just Di Pietro because he is actually the most famous and prominent former prosecutor and political rival of Berlusconi, far more than Violante and D'Ambrosio

3) It is not true that "all the MPs are legislators": not all the MPs write laws

4) I don't know if D'Ambrosio and Violante did write any law but we can be sure that they didn't write any law while being working as prosecutors (because in Italy you cannot be both prosecutor and MP)

5) The non-redundant information whch you deleted is not "the Berlusconi's lawyesrs wrote pieces of legislation" but

have been working as both lawyers on his trials and members of the parliament rewriting the laws involved in those trials.

which is a rather strange thing because there is a clear conflict of interests.--Pokipsy76 (talk) 14:03, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Very incorrect on your side to revert my edit after having left this discussion about them and without having provided any objection to my arguments.--pokipsy76 (talk) 13:27, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Just For Kicks

Cavaliere Caccola, uno stronzo con sprezzatura. --tickle me 09:45, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Hey man he is not Silvio Berlusconi, he is Maurizio Antonini, one of the most well-known sosia / doppelgangers of Berlusconi!!!
Anyway... Very funny!!!

People of Freedom

A sentence said "Before the 2008 Italian general elections he announced his intention to establish a new political party, The People of Freedom (Il Popolo della Libertà), to be formed by the merging of Forza Italia with the National Alliance party (Alleanza Nazionale) and other right wing parties on 27 March 2009." I think using right wing is more accurate than anti-communist, and more neutral. Besides of that, anti-communism is a topic widely used in mr. Berlusconi's speeches, more than a real political view, since the cold war is finished. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.35.31.58 (talk) 19:19, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Anti-communism

There is a wide wide range of political parties forming The People of Freedom. For example The New Italian Socialist Party is an anti-communist socialist party which decided to get in The People of Freedom, therefore the definition of "right wing" party is wrong, instead "anti-communist" is more specific AND appropriate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.201.98.168 (talk) 20:48, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I disagree, since the POF is definitely a right wing party, even if there are some minor parties like New Socialist Party that aren't. However, anti-communism is definitely not the main characteristic of the party, 'cause like I said Cold War is over and communism is not a threat as big as before; parties mainly based on anti-communism don't exist anymore. Furthermore, this is a matter widely used in Berlusconi's propaganda, I think it should be avoided since Wikipedia should have a neutral point of view. I suggest to use "other parties" avoiding further cathegorizations. 79.35.31.58 (talk) 22:54, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Right wing is NOT neutral.
Anti-communist IS the right definition for The People of Freedom. In The People of Freedom there are about 20 parties, some from the left, some from the center, some from the right, and SOME (not all, just some) from the right-wing of the political spectrum. The only two things that these 20 parties have in common are the acceptance of Berlusconi as supremo and sole leader and the FACT that all these 20 parties have ANTI-COMMUNIST roots.
Denying this historical premise impedes to understand the fundamentals from which the political action of Silvio Berlusconi originate, i.e. the anti-communism. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.201.135.204 (talk) 07:15, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Right wing is the faction the party belongs, therefore is definitely more neutral than simply saying "anti-communist". There could be a long discussion about the fundamentals from which the political action of Berlusconi originate, but this is not the place to do it. The main thing is that claiming a collection of parties to be "anti-communist" is mainly propaganda (in fact, anti-communism is one of mr. Berlusconi's favourite topics, but not a real political action since there's no communism to fight against like there was until 1990s), and therefore not allowed on Wikipedia. Of course they are, but saying anti-communism is PoF main characteristic is odd, it seems that its main concern is to fight an already defeated enemy... Even here anti-communism isn't among the ideologies, strange for a party whose "right definition is anti-communist".

Finally, this is not the PoF's page, describing the parties forming it isn't necessary, that's why I suggested to simply use "other parties". 79.18.16.7 (talk) 10:01, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Right wing is NOT the faction the party belongs: The People of Freedom is the Italian section of the European People's Party. EPP is a centre-right liberal conservative party, not a right-wing party. The People of Freedom is a centre-right liberal conservative party.
In this context the term anti-communist is not referred to The People of Freedom (or to Silvio Berlusconi), it is referred to Forza Italia, National Alliance and the other parties forming The People of Freedom. Therefore the term "anti-communist" is not used here for propagandistic or demagogic purposes, it is only and solely used in order to give a general definition concerning the common root which all these parties stem from.
This is not propaganda, this is an historical fact. It is a qualifying "point".

I think that even if "right wing" may be not completely appropriate for all the political subjects it is a fact that PDL is actually a rigt wing party. And the tem "anti-communist" is far more inapproprate because it is POV and because some of the minor political subjects which are now part of PDL (like "socialists" or "radicals") have been in the same coalition with the "communist" parties in the recent past.--pokipsy76 (talk) 13:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Socialist in The People of Freedom have NEVER been allied with the communists, more: they were considered the most hard-cored anti-communists of all. The Italian Communist Party generated from a quarrel that splitted the Italian Socialist Party into two antithetic political movements. A never reconciled division, which in the end pushed the anti-communist socialists into the arms of Berlusconi. Apart from personal exceptions (like Sandro Bondi, who whose a former communist) almost the 99% of the main pesonalities participating in The People of Freedom have anti-communist roots, so this definition is POV in this specific case.

Be serious: is there someone here that refuses the definition of "anti-communist" for the parties forming The People of Freedom, for The People of Freedom AND for Silvio Berlusconi?
This is the beginning of the first official political speech of Berlusconi:

<<Italy is the country I love. Here I have my roots, my hopes, my horizons. Here I have learned, from my father and from life, how to be an entrepreneur. Here I have also acquired the passion for liberty. I have chosen to enter the field and become a public servant because I do not want to live in an illiberal country, ruled by immature forces and by people who are well and truly bound to a past that proved both a political and economic failure>>.

There's more anti-communist rhetoric in this speech than water in the sea!!!

Socialists and radical have merged and splitted their parties several times and some of the parts of these splits and merges have been in the center-left coalition together with the communist parties. "Communism Vs Anti-communist" is nowadays a completely irrelevant issue in the italian political panorama.--pokipsy76 (talk) 11:43, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Communism vs anti-communism is nowadays a RELEVANT issue: Berlusconi has clearly stated his will to amend the Italian constitution as soon as possible because it is a constitution written under strong communist influences. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.201.129.98 (talk) 05:51, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

Anti-Communism is not a relevant fact in italian politics. It is a propagandistic tool used by Berlusconi and some of his followers: if you don't agree in defining the PDL as a "right wing party" (Even if 1)the second major force in it are the direct descendent of the Fascist Party in it and 2)the third major force in the centre-right coalition and the more centristic, the UDC, didn't enter the party), at least you have to agree that centre-right is far more appropriate that anti-communist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Spree85 (talk • contribs) 00:53, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Far-right, I would say, as one of the main forces in the new party descend directly from Mussolinis old fascist party. --Oddeivind (talk) 07:12, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

Altough I think that "anti-communist" is appropriate, I have to concede that "centre-right" is way way better than "right wing". My opposition came from the use of the term "right wing", which is not correct for a political movement belonging to the European People's Party. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.201.107.112 (talk) 20:29, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

POV edits

I reverted some edits which IMO were POV.

1. It is a fact that laws promoted by Berlusconi's government influenced trials in which Berlusconi is involved. These laws should be cited among the facts which influenced the outcomes of the trials, not in another sentence. For the explanation of the laws, there's the "legislative actions" section, and this other page.
2. Lodo Alfano is one of these laws, since it stops all trials involving the four highest offices of Italian government.
3. Is the number of the prosecutors who have worked in the trials really relevant? It looks like a support to Berlusconi's claims of judicial persecution.
4. "Politely"? Who says that?

--79.18.14.84 (talk) 23:22, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

I have removed his claim to be the victim of the greatest number of trials -clearly pov since no balance!

The claim cannot be POV

Cited quotes by Berlusconi himself.
It cannot be POV because this is what Berlusconi said. I am shure there are many other pages on other politicians who claim the opposite, in the page of Silvio Berlusconi let Berlusconi speak for himself.

Putting the claim on the top of the section is POV, it seems that Wikipedia agrees with that. There's already his claim about the judicial persecution where Berlusconi speaks for himself. And since the other POV edits are still there, I'm reverting them again. --79.33.152.16 (talk) 10:36, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

This is the claim you refer:

I'm the universal record-holder for the number of trials in the entire history of man, and of the other creatures who live on the other planets

This is not POV. In this statement Berlusconi did not claim to be a victim, he just said he went on trial many, many times, and that is a fact, not a POV

What I said is that putting the claim on top of the section is POV, not that the claim itself is. Reverted again. --79.32.155.157 (talk) 13:46, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, I'm reverting the parts I consider POV, because even if I have explained the motivation of my edits the only answer I've received is an accusation of vandalism. In addition, I'm deleting "running board revolution" from the title of the section; the term has been used by newspapers, but the event is not called commonly that way. --79.33.152.16 (talk) 16:39, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

As you said, the term "running board revolution" was created and used by the newspapers, both from opposition and leftish newspapers as "La Repubblica" and from Paolo Berlusconi's newspaper "Il Giornale". Therefore this term became commonly used as you can see from the external references which I duly added.
Instead, I used the precise term with which the speech held by Berlusconi on 18th November 2007 in Piazza San Babila was named by the main Italian newspapers the day after that speech.
So, your claim is unconsistent.

About Berlusconi's citation.
This is the claim you refer:

I'm the universal record-holder for the number of trials in the entire history of man, and of the other creatures who live on the other planets

I did answer. As you concede, the disputed claim is not POV.
Therefore putting that claim on top of the section is not POV.
Instead that claim only stresses the fact that Silvio Berlusconi went on many legal proceedings.
So, it is not POV at all.

Are you kidding? Opening the section about Berlusconi's trials with his complaining is clearly POV, since the section starts with his POV. It's not like references make an edit neutral. About the "rivoluzione del predellino", think about "marcia su Roma": the latter is commonly used, by people and by history books, the former, for the moment, is nothing more than a newspaper title. The title of a newspaper article and a title of an encyclopedia article are not the same thing. It's cited in the text, that's enough. --79.32.155.157 (talk) 19:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

I am not kidding, in fact that quote is not about a complaining made by Silvio Berlusconi, is about the number of trials and only about the number of trials:

I'm the universal record-holder for the number of trials in the entire history of man, and of the other creatures who live on the other planets

There is no complaining here: Silvio Berlusconi went on trials a number of times, and that is a fact, and Berlusconi only underlined the fact the he went on trials many times.
So, the quote is not POV, because in this quote there only the expression of the number of trials involving Silvio Berlusconi. No complaining, so no POV.

About the running board revolution
The same definition is already present on the Italian page about The People of Freedom:
paragraph title: La "rivoluzione del predellino": nasce il PdL
(http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Popolo_della_Libertà) But wikipedia is not considered a primal source of information, so I made a quick research on google.

It is not anything more than A newspaper title, because there is more that just one article or news:

from Il Foglio 24 April 2008:
(http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/191)
...che ha segnato l’alba della rivoluzione del predellino, espressioni rinfoderate con tutto l’armamentario antiberlusconiano una volta che Fini ha nuovamente scantonato – et pour cause – verso la reggia di Arcore...

from La Repubblica 18 September 2008:
(http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/2008/09/18/berlusconi-veltroni-inesistente-il-pd-ora-un.html)
ROMA - Nell' antico tempio di Adriano, lo stesso luogo da cui spiegò un anno fa la "rivoluzione del predellino", Silvio Berlusconi battezza l' avvio della fase costituente del Pdl...

from Il Corriere della Sera 17 December 2008:
(http://archiviostorico.corriere.it/2007/dicembre/17/Senatur_pompiere_Silvio_tra_suoi_co_9_071217021.shtml)
...Di fronte alla rivoluzione del predellino, al nuovo Berlusconi che strattona gli alleati e minaccia di farsi da solo un partito, è ovvio che ci sia freddezza da parte di Fini e Casini...

from La repubblica 24 January 2008:
(http://www.repubblica.it/2008/01/sezioni/politica/crisi-governo/caduta-prodi-giannini/caduta-prodi-giannini.html)
...Per il centrodestra, in mille pezzi solo fino a due settimane fa, quando le mura della Casa delle libertà erano crollate sotto i colpi di piccone della "rivoluzione del predellino" del Cavaliere, si rivede invece un orizzonte unitario...

from Il Sole 24 Ore 25 March 2008:
(http://www.ilsole24ore.com/art/SoleOnLine4/SpecialiDossier/2008/elezioni-politiche-2008/articoli/giovani-ed-elezioni-pdl-centrodestra.shtml?uuid=9fad2fe8-ffd5-11dc-bbec-00000e251029)
...L'insuccesso elettorale del 2006 e gli scontri tra il Cavaliere e gli alleati rallentarono però il processo di unificazione, che fu poi rilanciato da Berlusconi nel comizio di Piazza San Babila il 18 novembre scorso. «La rivoluzione del predellino» (così fu ribattezzata perché l'ex premier utilizzò la sua auto come palco) non ottenne inizialmente il sostegno degli alleati storici del Cavaliere a partire da An che aveva fatto sapere di non essere interessata alle «annessioni»...

from La repubblica 15 April 2008:
(http://www.repubblica.it/2008/04/sezioni/politica/elezioni-2008-uno/giannini-voto/giannini-voto.html)
...La "rivoluzione del predellino", uguale e contraria alla scelta del Pd di correre da solo, è stata un salto nel cerchio di fuoco. Ha obbligato la ex Cdl alla sterzata a destra. Ha regalato a Bossi un nuovo patto di sangue. Ha imposto a Fini l'annessione di An, a Casini la cacciata dal tempio. Per il Pdl è stata una scelta potenzialmente arrischiata: ha reciso le già logore radici moderate al suo centro (con l'Udc) e ha aperto un'insidiosa deriva radicale alla sua destra (con Storace-Santanché)...

from La Repubblica 8 February 2008:
(http://www.regione.sardegna.it/j/v/491?s=71269&v=2&c=1489&t=1)
...Costringe il Cavaliere a tornare a far politica, e a riprendere in mano, con una variante più realistica, la marinettiana «rivoluzione del predellino» che aveva inventato due mesi fa a Piazza San Babila. Stavolta, chiedendo ai suoi alleati ritrovati di fare oggi quello che Ds e Margherita avevano fatto oltre due anni fa...

from Il Tempo 5 July 2008:
(http://iltempo.ilsole24ore.com/politica/2008/07/05/898684-2005_stand_sono_arma.shtml)
...Ma il gazebo sarà protagonista anche il giorno della «rivoluzione del predellino», quando Berlusconi annunciò la nascita del Partito delle libertà, il nuovo soggetto politico unitario del centrodestra che mandò in soffitta la Cdl...

from La Stampa 6 February 2008:
(http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmsSezioni/politica/200802articoli/29869girata.asp)
...La «rivoluzione del predellino» sfuma all’orizzonte. Perfino il nome Popolo della libertà rischia di non trovare posto sul simbolo. «E’ 3 centimetri per 3», segnalano a via dell’Umiltà, «bisogna scrivere “Berlusconi presidente” e “Forza Italia”. Pdl dove lo ficchiamo?»...

from Il Foglio 23 November 2007:
(http://www.radicali.it/view.php?id=110444)
C’è qualcosa di sano, e anche di molto pazzo, in quel che sta succedendo in Italia dopo la rivoluzione del predellino e la fondazione in un week end della Repubblica delle mani libere. Troppa grazia, viene da dire...

from Il Giornale 5 February 2008
(http://www.ilgiornale.it/a.pic1?ID=238958)
...Premetto che la vera rivoluzione italiana, la fine della seconda Repubblica, è stata la nascita di Forza Italia, nel 1994. Ma la nascita del Pd completa il processo di rinnovamento anche sull’altro “piatto” della bilancia. Questo vuol dire che grazie alla rivoluzione del predellino il sistema è definitivamente sbloccato...

Plus the external references already present on this page:

http://www.ansa.it/opencms/export/site/notizie/rubriche/daassociare/visualizza_new.html_65041167.html

http://www.corriere.it/english/articoli/2008/01_Gennaio/02/casta.shtml

http://www.skylife.it/html/skylife/tg24/politica.html?idvideo=56053 Sky tg24 - Tutte le notizie in formato video

http://www.corriere.it/politica/07_novembre_18/berlusconi_partito_popolo_italiano.shtml «Oggi nasce il partito del popolo italiano». Corriere della Sera

http://www.ansa.it/opencms/export/site/visualizza_fdg.html_65043240.html

http://www.corriere.it/politica/08_gennaio_25/berlusconi_napoli_a48218f8-cb73-11dc-9e0e-0003ba99c667.shtml «Via l'Ici e stretta sulle intercettazioni» Corriere della Sera

http://www.tempi.it/editoriale/002715-il-futuro-della-rivoluzione-del-predellino

http://ricerca.repubblica.it/repubblica/archivio/repubblica/2007/12/16/per-la-rivoluzione-del-predellino-il.html

So, as you may see the definition of the running board revolution is largely used by a wide range of Italian national newspapers. The running board revolution is a definition used widely and commonly:
hence no POV, as usual.

The POV is not about the predellino (in fact, I disagreed about putting it as a title), but about Berlusconi's quote. It doesn't stress a fact, as Silvio Berlusconi isn't the "universal record-holder for the number of trials in the entire history of man, and of the other creatures who live on the other planets". He's being ironic, but he's complaining about the number of his trials (maybe hoping that someone takes pity on him). There's really no point in opening the section this way. Do you see any pages where the legal problems' section is opened with a quote from the accused person? --79.35.18.140 (talk) 10:57, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

How Many Times Has He Been Taken To Court?

How many times has he been

1. Charged

2. Convicted

3. Amnestied

in criminal and civil proceedings?93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:36, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

Answer

1. Charged : 13 times (at least)

2. Convited : none (therefore he has a clear record up to now)

3. Amnestied : one for false testimony. In Italy the amnesty extinguishes wrongdoing (It. reato) and sentence (It. pena) -and sometimes it obliterates both.
As a defendant you cannot choose to go on trial if an amnesty has passed. The trial immediately came to a halt.

His Criminal Conviction for Perjury Should be in the Lead

This is important. Perjury is a serious criminal offence. The amnesty does not mean that he was innocent, rather that he was not sentenced.93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:43, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

No conviction for perjury

Silvio Berlusconi was not convicted for perjury, simply because "perjury" does not exist in the Italian legal system, as it does not exist in the French legal system and in the German legal system.
It is false testimony and it is not a criminal offence.
"Perjury" in Italy is pronounced only during Perry Mason's TV movies.

Statute of Limitations - Guilty or not guilty?

Is this true?

• This is incorrect. The statutory limitation does not mean he is not guilty; at the very least it says nothing about guilt, and in fact it may indicate that he is guilty if the statute of limitations is applied after conceding benefits for previous good conduct (i.e. it would be the first verdict of guilt), because such benefits can be granted only after guilt is ascertained. See sentence #5069 of the Corte di Cassazione, May 21, 199693.96.148.42 (talk) 04:46, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

(restored the above paragraph deleted by 151.16.64.206. Please argue your point. Removing the opinion of other users with different views is not the best way to support your claim. --DarTar (talk) 19:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

I have removed nothing.
The Italian Constitution stated that, <<the defendant is not considered guily before the issuing of a final and unappealable sentence of guiltiness>> (Italian Constitution, Articolo 27, Comma 2: L'imputato non è considerato colpevole sino alla condanna definitiva).
Therefore Silvio Berlusconi has a clear record up to now because he has been never declared guilty in an enforceable judgement.
(See also: Presumption of innocence)

I write it even more clearly: according to the Italian Constitution Silvio Berlusconi is CLEARLY not guilty and has a clear record up to now. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.16.66.99 (talk) 23:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Answer

Not guilty.
The fact is simple. That definition (not guilty) is not used in the Italian legal system, which has strong fascist roots: in the Italian judicial system it is almost you are guilty until innocent, not innocent until guilty.
So, if you watch the problem on an Anglo-Saxon perspective you get an answer, if you watch it on an Italian point of view you obtain an other response.

This is untrue. In Italy defendants are considered innocent until found guilty, not the contrary. Whatever your opinion may be, this is the law. --Galaxia92 ^{may the force be with you} 18:22, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This article needs to be PROTECTED

There are far too many destructive edits by new users.93.96.148.42 (talk) 04:54, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

The problem came from the victory of Berlusconi's Sardinian gubernatorial candidate Ugo Cappellacci and the subsequent resignation of Parliamentary Oppostion's leader and Shadow Prime Minister Walter Veltroni. Since then the supporters of Berlusconi's opposition insist in their attempts to "vandalize" this page. It seems that the opposition and their supporters went nuts and became harshly pissed off.

Dont'lie. Elections in Sardinia took place on 15th and 16th of February, the edit wars became before this date (and it's clearly visible from the article's history), when some people disagreed with your edits. --79.32.155.157 (talk) 14:41, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely untrue claim. Moreover I have only added information together with the duly documentation and external references.
Some people may disagree, external references from the main Italian newspapers, and with English references too, agree. Verba volant, scripta manent.

Like I said above, it's not like references make an edit neutral. In my opinion, and not only mine as I see from other users' edits, you're deliberately trying to unbalance some articles in favour of Berlusconi. And it's clearly this the origin of the edit war, not the electoral result in Sardinia. Everyone can see this from the article's history, and accusing others won't change a thing. --79.32.155.157 (talk) 19:31, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Image copyright problem with File:Forza Italia.png

The image File:Forza Italia.png is used in this article under a claim of fair use, but it does not have an adequate explanation for why it meets the requirements for such images when used here. In particular, for each page the image is used on, it must have an explanation linking to that page which explains why it needs to be used on that page. Please check

• That there is a non-free use rationale on the image's description page for the use in this article.
• That this article is linked to from the image description page.

The following images also have this problem:

• File:Logo ForzaItalia 2006.png

This is an automated notice by FairuseBot. For assistance on the image use policy, see Wikipedia:Media copyright questions. --12:42, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

Clarification warranted, needs source

"Subsequently Berlusconi succeeded in blocking the publication of potentially embarrassing photos of young women at the party." - IMHO this is "weasel" -- just what was so embarrassing about these photos? Our cite for this is BBC News at http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8075276.stm , which says "Italian newspaper Il Corriere della Serra described some of the images as showing 'bikini-clad or topless girls' relaxing in the gardens or taking showers." Can anyone check the original in Il Corriere della Serra? Thanks. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 20:06, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I made that edit, treating the BBC as a reliable source, rather than a weaselly one, and silently noting what I imagined would seem obvious to any reader: if they there wasn’t a potential for embarrassment there wouldn’t have been any reason to supress them, would there? So of course you are welcome to take out the words ‘potentially embarrassing’ as redundant. But I look at it this way: if Gordon Brown, or David Cameron, or even a very minor British politician had resorted to the services of m’learned friends—after having made a point of publishing photographs of himself at the other party—it would have made a sufficient stir to remain in his or her Wikipedia article for ever. —Ian Spackman (talk) 21:31, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

I meant simply that "potentially embarrassing" could mean almost anything. (Wearing "black metal" T-shirts like some embarrassing young people that I know? Junior Nazis? Holding up signs saying "Impeach Berlusconi!"? XXX-rated?)
IMHO, rather than "silently noting what we imagined would seem obvious to any reader", if we have a reliable source that specifies what was in said photos, we should just specify and cite.
I have no idea what you mean about other politicians here. Went right over my little head. :-) My own inclinations are to clearly distinguish between those things which are specific and reliably sourced (which IMHO should remain in his or her Wikipedia article for ever), and hearsay and POV, which IMHO we should mercilessly expunge. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 02:09, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I really wish people would quit treating this article like a celebrity mag or scandal sheet. These are not the things people will care about, when they study Berlusconi fifty years from now. Oh, I suppose they'll care a little (same as the interest in Warren G. Harding's affairs) but a few examples will suffice — we don't need la cazzata del giorno continually updated. --Trovatore (talk) 02:13, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:CRYSTAL - We have no idea what people will care about fifty years from now. The Watergate scandal which eventually resulted in the only resignation of a U.S. president first came to light when a security guard noticed that a door lock had been taped open. We can go only by the reliable sources already published. If we have 'em, they can go in an article. If we don't have 'em, we don't have an article. -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 03:27, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Oh, come on, you can't be serious. Certainly some trivial fact could turn out, in retrospect, to have been very interesting. That doesn't justify inclusion of trivia before it's discovered to be interesting. The crystal-ball argument actually works the opposite way from what you're suggesting.

The scandal-rag tone of this article is just embarrassing; way below encyclopedic standards. I'm not saying that to protect Berlusconi particularly (I'm not nearly as opposed to him as probably a fair number of people here are, but I'm also not particularly a fan). But Wikipedia is supposed to be a scholarly resource. The focus needs to be put on more serious things. --Trovatore (talk) 04:02, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"Interesting" is in the mind of the beholder. IMHO, 99% percent of what is popularly considered to be "interesting" is crap. For the past two days one of the front-page stories on the news services that I monitor was a person dying in a balloon crash. I am unable to see how this could be relevant in any way to 99% of the population. But for some reason, this was considered noteworthy by news professionals.

I'm very strongly against the inclusion of "trivia" on Wikipedia. I don't think that scandal-rag material and gossip should be included in Wikipedia. However, I do think that it's possible to draw a line somewhere between this sort of material and material which is actually noteworthy. Wikipedia's standards for this aren't extremely clear, but I don't think that it's crazy to say that if we can cite professional news services on a matter, then we can include it in Wikipedia. Wikipedia:Verifiability says that "The threshold for inclusion in Wikipedia is verifiability, not truth - that is, whether readers are able to check that material added to Wikipedia has already been published by a reliable source, not whether we think it is true." Similarly, if we have reliable sources for something, then IMHO our standard for including should not be whether we find it interesting or important, but whether the public does.

I don't think that my opinion or your opinion about what is or isn't interesting matters very much (the opinion of every Wikipedia editor is of approximately equal importance, so the opinion of any one editor is worth approximately 1/the total number of Wikipedia editors). My personal interest in the Berlusconi-Letizia affair is just about nil. However, I see over 900,000 Google hits for "Noemi Letizia". I see just under 5,000 hits on Google News. Although this is not a subject of great interest to me, it's apparently of interest to the public and the news services, and that means that it is in all likelihood worthy of inclusion on Wikipedia.

IMHO, WP:CRYSTAL argues about equally for and against the inclusion of apparently unimportant matters. The import of WP:CRYSTAL, IMHO, is that we should decide to include or exclude material based on what has already been said about it, not on our guesses about how important or trivial it may be considered in the future.

-- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 13:38, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"Can" include it on Wikipedia does not mean "should". We want a certain scholarly tone here, especially in important articles. Of course we never know what will be viewed as important in the years to come, but I think there's a clear presumption that individual instances of this sort of personality-journalism material will not be. --Trovatore (talk) 18:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

"The photos" supposedly published

FYI: "The pictures vetoed by Berlusconi" (sic). "EL PAÍS publishes exclusive images censored in Italy after the prime minister's legal action". 05/06/2009
- http://www.elpais.com/articulo/internacional/The/pictures/vetoed/by/Berlusconi/elpepuint/20090605elpepuint_3/Tes -
These frankly struck me as pretty tame after all the hype. La Dolce Vita was wilder than this in 1960.:-) -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 23:54, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

It was bad enough for Jon Stewart to make fun of him on The Daily Show. Come on, dude: two topless women, one draped over his knee, with the Czech PM in the background with a boner? This is tame to you? Also, in context, the man is accused of committing adultery with an 18-year-old mistress. ☯  Zenwhat (talk) 03:27, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Nope: he's not "accused of committing adultery with an 18-year-old mistress": there's no procedure open on that. Only talks by his political counterparts. His wife talked about "frequentation", but in Italian language "to frequent" does not necessarilly mean "to fuck".

And, in any case, that's not a crime (after 14 y.o. no presuption of violence exists), so he cannot be "accused".

Age of consent is 16, anyway. No direct accusations, only moral shadows.--Dans (talk) 23:28, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Fourteen according to Ages of consent in Europe#Italy, unless ‘Papi’ is taken to be more than a term of affection. Ian Spackman (talk) 06:22, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

I would warn against conducting, in this article, daily updates on Mr Berlusconi's relations with the opposite gender : I have introduced here the D'Addario affair, because it seemed too important to be ignored, given also the relevance it has been given by international media. I don't think however that this particular soap opera should be followed day by day.

Also, because I'm sure we will yet have many other coups de theatre ....Giordaano (talk) 13:56, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

OK, I have tried to condense slightly recent information. What would be useful (if someone had time) would be to give an idea of reactions in the Catholic press (Famiglia cristiana) and perhaps some idea of international reactions to the affair.

The best, however, would be to let it rest for a few days, or we really risk falling into "recentism". Giordaano (talk) 14:29, 25 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't think that there is any point in hiding the fact that D'Addario is an "escort girl". She has publicly recognized it, and all Italian media use this definition. This, for some reason, sounds more acceptable than "squillo" or "call girl". Power of words.Giordaano (talk) 10:57, 29 June 2009 (UTC)

Trials

Information regarding past and pending trials involving Mr Berlusconi is currently spread over two pages, which is quite confusing. The section entitled "Legal problems" in the Silvio Berlusconi article contains two subsections ("False testimony regarding membership of the "Propaganda 2" (P2) masonic lodge" and "Jowellgate"/David Mills bribery case") that refer to specific trials. This information should be merged with Trials involving Silvio Berlusconi which is likely to become the main article for trials involving Berlusconi. I suggest we keep the "Legal problems" section in the main article for declarations and general issues such as controversy on laws passed by the Berlusconi cabinet or conflict with magistrates, and move all trail-specific information to the other article. --DarTar (talk) 22:39, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Good idea.--Dans (talk) 16:58, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

--Etrusko25 (talk) 19:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)==Family background and private life: the last section== There is too much carelessness and sheer nonsense in this for it to stay on the page in its current form, so I have moved it here. It should be returned to the article when it has been fixed. The problems include [certainly there are others, not least that the escort girl scandals have extended far beyond the question of NL’s birthday party]:

• Veronica Lario did not file for divorce in May, she merely announced plans, saying that she had hired a lawyer.
• Noemi Letizia’s birthday party was not ‘weeks after this happened’, it was on on 26 April
• Being a ‘minor’ is absolutely not the same as being ‘under age’
• At least one of the references makes no reference at all to what we write

In May 2009 Veronica Lario filed for divorce saying "I cannot stay with a man who frequents minors". It was reported that Veronica Lario was referring to Berlusconi's relationship with Noemi Letizia. Noemi Letizia turned 18 weeks after this happened and Berlusconi attended her birthday. Therefore Berlusconi knew Noemi Letizia when she was under age.

Ian Spackman (talk) 11:20, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

"Being a ‘minor’ is absolutely not the same as being ‘under age’" -- It may be that you're not on the firmest ground here. I suspect that this definition/usage varies between jurisdictions, dialects, and languages. Our own Underage and Under-age redirect to Minor (law), which begins "In law, the term minor (also infant or infancy) is used to refer to a person who is under the age in which one legally assumes adulthood and is legally granted rights afforded to adults in society," and includes a brief mention "Examples of restrictions imposed on minors include statutory rape laws...." -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 22:55, 9 August 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, what do you mean with "Our underage ... minor"? Berlusconi, Lario and Letizia are italian and fact are all happened in Italy. And the italian law doas a cleear distinction about these two concepts. "Your" definition is irrelevant in this context. And be a friend of a minor is not a crime, at least in the context where all actions are supposed to be taken. The only real fact that can be deduced by all this story is that V.L. does not like the fact her housband has as friends other women / girl. Every other assumption is only a presumption of commenters. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.68.145.211 (talk) 18:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Veronica Lario said "My husband frequents minorenni" and, in Italian minorenne is a person younger than 18 years. So that means "under the legal age". This is what VL said and this is what VL doesn't like of her husband.--Etrusko25 (talk) 19:53, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Chair of G8 template

Is that template correct? Italy is always preceded by Japan and followed by France, but in 2001 Italy seemed to be preceded by itself (S.B. preceded by Giuliano Amato). Of course, no mention of the chair of G8 is reported inside Giuliano Amato Page (I would expect G.A followed by S.B ...) Which of the two is wrong ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.80.247.251 (talk) 13:34, 15 August 2009 (UTC)

The post-Berlusconi era?

New news story: "Silvio Berlusconi faces new sex party allegations", telegraph.co.uk 09 Sep 2009

"The leader of an opposition conservative Catholic party, Pierferdinando Casini, declared: 'The post-Berlusconi era has begun.'"

-- Someone who apparently doesn't shy from making controversial statements. :-) (Our article at Pierferdinando Casini)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/italy/6164221/Silvio-Berlusconi-faces-new-sex-party-allegations.html -- 201.37.230.43 (talk) 23:43, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

So watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2kSKVJ_OPFA&feature=related

And it was 1994... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.202.108.242 (talk) 03:42, 14 September 2009 (UTC)

Controversies of Berlusconi

Isnt it better if the article were split up and give the controversies of Berlusconi a seperate page? The controversy section is extremely large compared to other sections in this article. Omegastar (talk) 19:25, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Another series of blunders...

sorry i dont give you a source (i've read it in my local language) but it seems that Mr.Berlusconi doesn't know that Czechoslovakia doesnt exist for some 16 years (he was talking about the american rocket defence shield which was to be built in Czech Republic and Poland), doesn't know that the Kaliningrad Oblast belongs to Russian not Lithuanian and thought that the american shield was to be establish in... Georgia (the country which hit the headlines because the Osetia conflict). Please find the source of recent misfortunate statmentes - they are so funny ;D