Talk:Ontology

Daniel Dennett

Shouldn't he be mentioned here? What with him having pretty much declared ontology unexistent?

Since making a negative existential assertion about ontology could be considered a contradiction in terms, perhaps Dennett's insight has been correctly overlooked (seriously, is he making a joke?). Baadog (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Metaphysics: Meaning and History

I would like to point out that "metaphysics" did not get its name from being "above the physical". This does not make sense when we look at Aristotle since Aristotle was a realist. Its actual meaning is "after the physics" because of were the books on metaphysics were placed in respect to his other works. Please see the wikipedia on Aristotle for confirmation. I changed the article accordingly---Franklin Carroll

Horse Hockey

The original article was pure horse hockey, but sophists and Platonists and such will be pleased to know that I kept every blessed word and made them all make sense. This is definitely a subject where theology can explain the same things better than philosophy. I suppose that's fair, since theology can't explain epistemology at all...

The original article apparently makes sense to people who don't make sense. However, the English word "to be" means literally nothing, i.e. "A is B" can be used in English with literally every combination of "A" and "B". So it must "be" eliminated from the article, if it is to survive in this form.

It gives drastically too little weight to the very common use of the word in AI/KR, and it doesn't mention theology at all, which is inexecusable. So, I'd appreciate some constructive critique of the article as it exists, else I'll work on the new one.

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still needs reduction of various tenses of 'to be', including 'is', 'are', which become redundant.

"This is definitely a subject where theology can explain the same things better than philosophy." you write. How so? Jimp 2Nov05

ον

being = ον. Thanks --Kalogeropoulos 10:27, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Ontology appears to be a basis for irrational action.

The concepts in this subject appear to be accessible by inference only. It does not seem to be approachable except by degrees of belief. In other words, basing ones' actions on ontology only, seems to be a dangerous strategy, for oneself and for others. 'Do X and there will be 72 virgins awaiting ...'

If this is the case, then why has this kind of study persisted over millennia. It appears to be a sheer waste. Why not spend the time on actions which produce observable good results.

If one acts based on an ontology, then the immediate result of that action must be the feedback, presumably self-reinforcing. Hence the persistence of the viewpoint. But if suicide or other violence is the action, then the recipients who are 'pleased' by the action must ?...? It is completely irrational.

Unless revenge or other coercion is the motive. But this would be a situation for which the justice system was created. Then the aggrieved could demand reparations and restitution. Unless the aggrieved feel the justice system is completely corrupt. But that can be fixed by an appeal to the mass media, who could expose the condition. Unless the aggrieved feel the mass media ... .

This chain of reasoning has identified a population which must be helped, somehow. But how.

Bertrand Russell said 'Washing is unhealthy. Wearing clothes is unhealthy. But the combination of Washing and Clothing is healthy'. If Ontology is unhealthy, then what is the corresponding antidote. 169.207.90.72 09:48, 29 Sep 2003 (UTC)

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This article seems to be accreting strange stuff again...

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Does anyone know what this is supposed to mean?

In Software architecture, Marketing or Sales, the entities can be _, should be _, need to be _ or will be _. Thus the issues lie with Brand, Brand name or Product line. See also:

   * ontological commitment
   * ontological warfare 

In Engineering, Software development or Software engineering, the entities will be _, are _, or were _. See also:

   * ontological commitment
   * ontological distinction (computer science)
   * ontology (computer science)
   * cognitive ontology 

The phrasing is horrible and all I conclude by reading this is that ontology is somehow related other major fields of study.

This cruft needs to go.

I suggest that you read the articles on entity and agent. When the subject was invented in Greece, that classical language had subtleties that do not carry over to English, and subtler thinkers of the past two centuries started studying things like physics and mathematics. My point was that the verb to be is not unnecessary, but needs to be thought of in different senses than the intransitive verb is; in fact, some more pertinent verbs are are, should be, and were. For people who are creating things that do not exist yet, should be and can be are very important concepts. 169.207.88.112 01:22, 25 Feb 2004 (UTC) And a standard engineering specification uses those words.

Deletion of cruft

I deleted the cruft. If Wikipedia is ever to be taken seriously, its articles on academic disciplines need to be restricted to material that is academically respectable in that discipline, not random misplaced cruft.

Crap

"The concept of ontology originated in theology with basic questions about God, e.g. "does God exist?", some of which seemed to apply more generally to other kinds of beings."

This is crap, ontology existed way before 'God', in the time of Aristotle. Gods maybe slightly more approporiate but even then I dont think it was the main cause. --ShaunMacPherson 16:46, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)

If you people did your homework you'd realize that the crap was entered by JRR Trolliken, who is now BANNED for trolling and vadalism (check out his user page). Someone didn't revert his edits and now we are stuck with them, i say we revert to the edit before his, comments? --ShaunMacPherson 07:33, 8 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Aristotle Paragraph Similar to Early History Paragraph

The "Aristotle's Description" paragraph is very similar to the "Early History of Ontology" paragraph. Do we need to have both, it seems unnecessarily repetitive? Where does this paragraph belong? WhiteC 06:59, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You're right. I glued it together. This still needs some real rework to be combined together.--denny vrandečić 12:02, Nov 9, 2004 (UTC)

OK. I removed the second paragraph, since it was all a duplicate of the end of the first paragraph. WhiteC 03:46, 10 Nov 2004 (UTC)

JJ Gibson's Ontology

I was the rat who deleted (or tried to) the following reference to J. J. Gibson.

"A key theory was that of J. J. Gibson, which held that the (subject) animal did not perceive other (object) elements of its environment directly, but rather, strictly in terms of opportunities or potentials, "affordances", relevant to its own ecological niche within that environment."

I did so because it made a distinction between direct perception, which was supposed to be alien to Gibson's views, and the perception of affordances, which was supposed to be essential to those views. I never thought I would have the gall to edit one of these things, but this distinction is clearly WRONG.

J. J. Gibson was a student of Holt who was himself a student of James and one of the founders of a brief philosophical movement called the New Realism. One of centeral tenants of that movement, and the one that gave Gibson's work its essential character, was the notion that organisms directly perceive environments. In fact, I believe, his theory is called by some, "direct perception theory"! In any case, in Gibson's view (says I) there is no contradiction between affordances and direct perception because an affordance is a property of an environment that can be directly perceived. Given all of this, I am surprized that J. J. didnt rise up from the grave and edit himself.

The ontology of the new realism is extremely radical. At the risk of violating some norm against hornblowing here, allow me to quote from a passage of an article I am working on. "[That ontology] places consciousness outside the conscious actor. It moves your consciousness, for instance, from being a property of you to being a property of your surroundings. This ontology turns on its head the functionalist notion that your consciousness is ontologically ?within? you but epistemologically available to you only through examination of your behavior. In the New Realist account, the contents of your consciousness are epistemologically linked to you but are ontologically outside of you. Thus, to a New Realist, an emotional feeling is a fact about the world, rather than a fact about the organism that ?has? the feeling."

If anybody gets this far, would they be willing to offer me some advice on the usage of the word ontology. I have perhaps regretably fallen into a habit of referring to the ONTOLOGY OF A THEORY, meaning the picture of the world on which the theory is based, perhaps its most fundamental metaphor, if you will. Thus when somebody explains some behavior in terms of a "mechanism", we are led to picture some whacking great clanking machine, no matter what disclaimers the user of the term might invoke. This is what it is to be infected by a mechanist ontology. (now I should take a whack at some non mechanist to show that I am fairminded, but I dont have the energy.) But quite apart from my fair=mindedness about different ontologies, am I using the word correctly. Certainly one could NOT substutute "the study of being" for "ontology" and come up with anything, so if my usage is right, then the ontology entry would have to include a second definition, something like "fundamental and unexamined presumptions about the nature of the phenomenon under study."

Anybody who would like to berate me can do so at Nickthompson@earthlink.net

What is ontology?

I guess it depends on which school one belongs to. I find there is not much here that would be informative to someone trying to find out what ontology is. Such people would likely conclude, ontology is extrememly abstruse -- and who could blame them?

What entities are there & what types of entities are there? Physical objects generaly make the list, sensations do not. I guess ontology would deal with the reasons why some nouns are not entities too --JimWae 09:32, 2004 Dec 21 (UTC)

I added part of 'What entities..' to the intro paragraph, since I agree that this article wouldn't make much sense to anyone who deosn't already know what ontology is. But to be fair, ontology is somewhat abstruse. WhiteC 12:09, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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Imagine a table with 4 columns (Entity | Non-Entity | Unsure | Comments) & unlimited rows

Put the following into the appropriate column & put similar things in the same rows:

mice, men, brains, mind, thoughts, feelings, ideas, space, time, number, god, Y*h*v*h, Vishnu, Jupiter, atom, gryphon, moon, light, matter, energy, electron, wave, building, bank, person, corporation, team, red, sugar, sweetness, Plato, Capt. Picard, Bugs Bunny, present king of France, your future children, sentence, promise, contract, earth, air, water, fire, song, e-mail, computer program, soul, charisma, verve, vigor, vitality, Santa Claus, geometry, nouns

... and lots more nouns

... as you do this you will develop an ontology & develop reasons & deal with similarities and identity of indiscernibles. Is that what ontologists do?

Basically, yes. I think the comments column would need a lot of space--discussion of "why does this thing exist? How do I know? What sort of thing is it? Are these categories arbitrary, and if not why am I categorizing?" and stuff like that, although that overlaps with epistemology. Also, I think the job/hobby description would be philosopher or philosophy professor (who argues about ontology), since most "ontologists" are also interested in philosophy in general. WhiteC 18:19, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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There is no spoon? --Tsinoyboi 08:05, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes there isn't —Preceding unsigned comment added by ReluctantPhilosopher (talk • contribs) 15:59, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

External Links

• AbstractAtom.com: Information and articles on issues in ontology

I'm pretty sure the Clay Shirky "Ontology is Overrated" piece belongs in the Ontology (computer science) page instead, but I'm a new user and scared of making a change like that without some kind of approval. --Grace 09:39, 20 October 2005 (UTC)

I think it is good here as it gives access to the subject for a lot of people who didn't know that they were ontologists. Meggar 00:31, 18 March 2006 (UTC)

Section headings

The first 4 sections ("Early History of Ontology", "Subject, relationship, object", "Body and Environment" and "Being") all describe different views of ontology as practiced by different philosophical schools throughout history. Later paragraphs do not follow this system. I would like to organize the article better so that this is more obvious. Any suggestions on how to go about this? WhiteC 07:17, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Those 4 sections could be moved down so they came after the "Some basic questions" part. It seems strange to have the basic questions at the end of the article, rather than near the beginning. Please tell me if you object... WhiteC 17:47, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I most certainly agree. --denny vrandečić (hp) (talk) 13:43, Dec 23, 2004 (UTC)

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Others

Does anyone know if Mead was consciously addressing the cartesian other and seeking an alternative when he developed the generalized other ?

Applying Ontology to Abortion, Stem Cell Controversy?

Wouldn't it be possible to apply ontology, and the discussion of Existence to Abortion and Stem cell controversy? After all, don't both subjects deal with the destruction of human embryos, and therefore the discussion of when human life begins?

Or maybe I'm just being naive and failing to see the true purpose of ontology...

The question of whether or not an embryo qualifies as human life is, I think, not really an ontological subject. Ontology does, however, raise the question "What is a human being?" — whether this can be solved without considering questions such as "Is a fetus a human being?" is highly debatable. So perhaps it might be fair to say that the Abortion and Stem cell debates have "drawn" ontology in.

Historically, however, ontological debates have been little concerned with these practical question or, at least, they are generally presented as though they can be thought through without needing to consider practical questions, though, in fact, the answers to ontological questions do, in fact, have practical results. Thus, Aristotle's Politics and ethics derives many of its concepts from his ontology. And, of course, Spinoza's natura plays straight into his political notions.

Short answer: Yes, with some reservations... Ig0774 07:33, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Feb 2006 changes by Ontoquantuum aka 83.168.46.173

Massive changes have been made by Ontoquantuum (aka 83.168.46.173). I see no improvement in the article - in fact I see more hyperbolic jargon than ever. The paragraphs that made the most sense have been deleted. I am inclined to just revert. Comments?--JimWae 05:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Although the previous version of the article is deficient in many ways, I agree that Onotquantuum's edits have primarily served to make the article incomprehensibly dense, besides which, the edits mainly seem to repeat the same points over and over. So, yeah, go ahead and revert. Ig0774 08:07, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Ontoquantuum may be a sockpuppet of Azamat Abdoullaev. They have both edited the same articles. And Azamat has written a very splendid article about himself. Maustrauser 11:21, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. I've done a revert as well. In the spirit of compromise, I've left in the links to Abdoullaev's company web site and upper-level ontology. Dr. Abdoullaev: your contributions would be welcomed, if you are willing to work with the material that is already there, and support each change. Matuszek 15:54, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Dr Abdoullaev's article and his own autobiography are up for AfD owing to his material being original research and his autobiography being non-notable. It looks as though the concensus will be delete. You may wish to consider removing links to his website. Maustrauser 20:51, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Eh, the content pointed at by external links can be original research. If anything I'd organize his and other attempts to define an upper ontology. If they got deleted I wouldn't take umbrage either. Matuszek 16:39, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

I guess my point is that if Dr Abdoullaev is considered Non-notable then I wonder why we would have external links to non-notable research. Maustrauser 05:19, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Improving this article

Azamat, Holon here. My view is that the article can be improved, but you are simply not doing so. As one example, in a recent revision, you tried to add the following:

The substance (core) of the ontological universe of discourse is nothing else but entity in its major meanings of being, thing, reality with its essential classes and kinds lying behind everything of the sorts of particulars, or concrete things.

Is your text above supposed to be an attempt at an ontological analysis of ontological discourse?? Alternatively, do you mean the focus of ontological discourse is ... such and such? Seriously, while I think I know what you are trying to say, the above text is all but incomprehensible and it seems that what you are attempting to say is a rather obscure repitition of clearer and more concise definitions regarding what ontology is. It does not enhance the article, and I would not be surprised if it loses the reader entirely. Why keep trying to make such wholesale changes when it is clear the majority of editors/readers do not think they are helpful? Wouldn't it be more productive to discuss what you perceive to be key problems or issues here, and go from there? Holon 04:10, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

a straw man proposal

Hollon, I believe that you know that the current text on ontology is a weak content, a 'straw man proposal' in your terms, much in need of complete revising or just deleting. Now topics by topics. Start from introduction, which must indicate the basic points of the subject matter: a verified definition (or a set definitions), its scope or range.

In philosophy, ontology (from the Greek ὄν, genitive ὄντος: being (part. of εἶναι: to be) and -λογία: writing about, study of) is the most fundamental branch of metaphysics.[AA comments: better avoid this statement, metaphysics is just an artificially contrived term, never used by Aristotle]

It studies being or existence and the basic categories thereof, to determine what entities and what types of entities exist. [AA comments: it studies the nature of being and existence, its basic properties and relationships, etc]. Ontology thus has strong implications for conceptions of reality. [ AA: ontology deals with reality, its major parts and levels]

[AA comments: the discourse take a sudden semantic turn, trying to say that there are different sorts of nouns: (mass, class, or individual) nouns of magnitudes and noun of multitudes (collective names); clearly the topic refers to semantics.} Some philosophers, notably of the Platonic school, contend that all nouns refer to entities. Other philosophers contend that some nouns do not name entities but provide a kind of shorthand way of referring to a collection (of either objects or events).

[AA comments: what this semantic diversion is doing here? ]

In this latter view, mind, instead of referring to an entity, refers to a collection of mental events experienced by a person; society refers to a collection of persons with some shared characteristics, and geometry refers to a collection of a specific kind of intellectual activity. Any ontology must give an account of which words refer to entities, which do not, why, and what categories result. When one applies this process to nouns such as electrons, energy, contract, happiness, time, truth, causality, and god, ontology becomes fundamental to many branches of philosophy.

[AA comments: the reader should be said that: ontology also concerns with the naming things in the world, which can be done either by their nature or by reference to their relationships to other things]

Now see the proper version of intro

Ontology (from the [Greek on, ontos being, existence + logia <logos word, study]) is the philosophical science of reality, existence, or being, its major properties and relationships. It studies the basic divisions and modes of being as the general entities and things of reality like as substance or object; state, quality, or quantity; change or process, and relationship. It is characteristic that most accepted definitions of ontology marked by deep similarity:

the science of entity (or being) as such; the most general theory concerning reality, being, or existence; the general cosmology or universal science dealing with the whole of reality; the knowledge of the most general structures of reality; the theory of the kinds and structures of things in every domain of reality; the science of the essential nature and fundamental relations of all that exists; the research of the necessary and universal truths about the essences of beings.

Any mature science implies some ontological assumptions about its knowledge domain of study. For ontology serves as the unifying knowledge framework (the general context of use) both for the philosophical sciences as epistemology, logic, semantics, ethics, value theory, ideology and for the particular sciences, basic and applied, hard and soft, theoretical or experimental, natural or humane, material or formal. Azamat Abdoullaev 12:08, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

To reiterate. AZAMAT, above you said: Try and avoid personal matters of somebody's notability or non-notability, let's concentrate on the content of the matter. Notability was brought up above specifically regarding linking to one of your sites. Your bringing it up again is a straw man. It is a misrepresneation of others' arguments. Since you referred to what I believe -- like others here, I believe it can be improved like many articles but find most of your suggested revisions extremely difficult to follow. Holon 14:48, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Azamat, thank you very much for the comments. It does help to make the badly needed improvements started while (hopefully avoiding the continual reverts that have thus far plagued this page. The text you present here is much clearer than many of your previous edits, but allow me to raise my concerns with it:

• Greek: I prefer the Greek text in the polytonic now on the page (but I can read polytonic Greek, so maybe this isn't appropriate for everyone.
• Metaphysics: While it is true that the term "metaphysics" was never used by Aristotle, this is no argument against the mention of metaphysics, as it has roughly a 2000 year history of use. That said, something like your first sentence is, I think, more appropriate.
• The inclusions of definitions: these definitions you include need to be sourced; where are you getting them from? More than that, do they really add anything to the page? — I am not so sure.
• Second paragraph (as it stands): I agree with your comments: what is that paragraph doing here? It seems to pertain mostly to the philosophy of language, and not directly to ontology.Ig0774 17:14, 25 February 2006 (UTC)

Edited ancient history

First of all this page is much, much better than the disaster that was here before.

I edited the ancient history section, adding some etymology and historical work I did for an article in 2001, finding the earliest usage of the word. Aristotle did not use the word ontology (nor metaphysics), and as the article now says, the earliest records of it are from the 17th century.

Indian References

Re: Early history of ontology

I have removed the last paragraph of this section and pasted it below- please read on for my reasoning. My first question is: is this true scolarship? Is it widely accepted that indian 'philosophers' had "asked, debated, and ANSWERED... these questions..."? The paragraph gives the impression, not only that the indians had worked on the topic of ontology, but that they had solved it. My impression is that the questions raised have not been answered even today, let alone prior to the Greeks. Moreover, the 'philosophers' cited do not seem to have confirmed dates, and appear in mythological rather than verified historical writings. With the absence of confirmed dates, or independent writings about these people, it is impossible to say if writings attributed to them were by them, or by later scribes or scholars. In the same way it is impossible without a leap of faith that King Janaka (who is cited in the paragraph) set a challenge for whoever wanted to marry his daughter Sita that they had to string the bow of the Hindu God Vishnu- a task that the god Rama managed to perform.

Deleted paragrabraph is included below:

"Prior to Greek philosophy these questions were debated in ancient India by many philosophers and thinkers. The names of a few of these have come down to us today. The most notable secular philosophers are Raja (King) Janaka and Rajamuni (Royal Sage) Kapila. Kapila's Samkhya philosophy asked and answers many ontological questions posed by the Greek philosophers. The most distinguishing fact concerning Kapila's ontology is that it is entirely secular in nature."

I have inserted the following paragraph in its place, which I believe is a fairer presentation of the facts, and which also lists China:

"Ontological questions have also been raised and debated by thinkers in the ancient civilizations of India and China, in some cases perhaps predating the Greek thinkers who have become associated with the concept."
-bradby

Bradby, I hope you don't mind, but I went ahead and deleted even that, because it didn't seem to contain any verifiable information. However, if anyone can produce any genuine ancient Hindu or Chinese ontology, it would be a welcome addition. Ocanter (talk) 19:14, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

A question: What are the semantic and pragmatic advantages of having an ontology that includes events?

Please discuss.....

new page on critical ontology

I came across Critical Ontology during new page patrol and figured you readers here would be able to give me some advice about notability, verifiability, etc. of this supposed phenomenon. Apparently it was produced by the page's creator. Thoughts?--Chaser T 01:27, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

duh huh?

"According to this theory, then, ontology is the science of being inasmuch as it is being, or the study of beings insofar as they exist."

Could someone rephrase or elaborate on the above sentence so that it's intent will be clear to someone who isn't already familiar with this particular definition of ontology?

Clay Shirky - BULL

Please remove this article: Clay Shirky: Ontology is Overrated.

This is hardly productive in an explanation of an ontology. If this is to be taken seriously, then I think I'm going to look up the entry for Britney Spears, and write a dissertation on why she's overrated. Please, any topic in wiki can be "overrated". And Clay, your article is counter-productive to the field...especially those of us working with medical ontologies.

External Links

Removed a lot of second-rate and irrelevant links. Apologies in advance if I removed anything that was actually relevant to "ontology in philosophy". DrL 20:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

rand? and a standard for inclusion.

given the status of the rest of the list of philosophers on the ontologies list. it does not seem correct to add a fairly minor character, specifically ayn rand. therefor, i suggest a standard for inclusion that stipulates that their works are well-cited in the philosopher's index. with a minimum of 10 citations related to ontology. without such participation and citation in the index of the field, it does not seem to correct to call anyone part of the field, no less a significant figure.--Buridan 12:28, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

• I see that the addition was made by User:LaszloWalrus, an Objectivism/Rand enthusiast, who tends to get into edit wars over the inclusion (or removal) of his belief-system. As part of a personal campaign, he has inserted Rand into numerous philosophy articles.--Leflyman^Talk 14:17, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Leflyman's comments are merely a personal attack from someone with a history of reversions without discussion. I'll leave Rand out until I can dig up the proper citations. LaszloWalrus 15:40, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

I am beginning to suspect that you show a pattern of wikipedia non-neutrality and promotion of personal view points or what is known as a personal campaign. It might be time for you to take a break from wikipedia. All i've seen so far in the philosophy articles is insertion of rand, then the same old arguments for rand, which have always failed to certify rand is anything beyond a person who espoused a philosophy, which is a fine and good thing, but it does not make one a philosopher of any standing in the field. --Buridan 16:32, 6 September 2006 (UTC)

Problems

This is a list of factual errors and poorly explained concepts and other problems within the article

- It’s an incoherent and confused idea jump. The sections don’t give a broad overview of their topics but merely dump us straight in. The section “Being and non being” is a prime example of this.

- The body and environment section is confusing, incomprehensible to lay people, it depends on claims that need citations ( “This relied to a great degree on insights derived from scientific research into animals taking instinctive action in natural and artificial settings ? as studied by biology, ecology, and cognitive science.” did it really?).

-E-prime came along before postmodernism ( or at least before postmodernism really got going).

-What does “other philosophers tried to dig into the word and it’s usage” mean? How do you dig into the usage of a word?

-How precisely is Heideggers attempt to distinguish being and existence relevant ( not doubt it is, but how, wikipedia should be written for the intelligent lay person?)

- How is that “the idea of being itself became difficult to really define.” if being is a difficult concept to define it was always a difficult concept to define correctly.

- How does the paragraph on subject, relationship and object relate to it’s title? It’s just a confused discussion of the philosophy of mind.

- Why does “Subject, relationship and object” state that Descartes didn’t consider the question worth much consideration, it takes up a huge chunk of his most famous book “Meditations on the first philosophy”. Unless the author is talking about a different question in which case it should be made clear in the text.

- How is the claim “The first formal development of this notion within philosophy began with the pre-Socratic Heraclitus” justified by the evidence? Wouldn’t “The first known formal development of the this notion within western philosophy began with the pre-Socratic Herecliatus” be more accurate and better supported by evidence.

- How is the enormous millennia spanning claim that Herecliatus’ views were abandoned until Nietzsche and Parmendies views replaced them instead possibly defensible as an incontrovertible non POV claim, a thesis this huge about the nature of Western philosophy is always going to be disputed.

- Wikipedia should be written for the intelligent layperson but the paragraph on Nietzsches views, using an enormous quantity of Nietzsche’s jargon would only be comprehensible to someone who already knew it all anyway.

-“During the Enlightenment the view of Rene Descartes that "cogito ergo sum" ("I think therefore I am") had generally prevailed,” how is this a general theory of ontology relating to “Subject, relationship and object” it’s only about the ontology of minds.

- The division of social science into four perspectives on ontology is bound to be POV and controversial as these categories would be disputed. The explanation given of each of the perspectives is factually inaccurate, represents the views of only some of the proponents of these positions and is POV. The explanation given for Positivism is totally innacurate, positivism is related to empiricism and realism in standard formulations and would have us try to put aside our own perspectives and claims about fact’s and look to find the facts as they can be established by concrete research methodologies. The explanation given for postmodernism is also not good, postmodernism contains many different views some of them being not especially and to reduce it to the definition given on the page is a bad idea.

furthermore, would these not better be described as epistemological positions (theories of knowledge) rather than ontological (theories of being)? 80.41.104.27 00:36, 14 November 2006 (UTC)

- The first paragraph of the section "Early history of ontology" contains this phrase: "However its appearance in a dictionary indicates it was in use already at that time." This phrase is weird. The following would be better: "However, its appearance in a dictionary indicates it was already in use at the time."

Cognition of Being and Singularity

I added this section

• Please sign your posts. The section needs some citations. Please provide them or it will likely be removed per WP:OR. Thanks for your work on the article! --DrL 14:04, 15 October 2006 (UTC)

I am removing this section on grounds of incoherence. Here's what I removed, for anyone who wants to know what they're missing. Mporter 09:45, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

• Good decision. It needs considerable revision and may violate WP:OR. --DrL 17:06, 19 October 2006 (UTC)

Cognition of Being and Singularity, as brought about by the presence of language.

Some philosophical schools equivocate being, to the self-aware and actualized experience of understanding one's relationship and locality in space-time. This space-time exists in a sort of non-Euclidean platonic space, that can only be perceived by conceptualizing the singularity of the event. Heideggar's notion of Dasein is the truest poetic embodiment of this concept, whereas Einstein's relativity, in some respects, bears the semblance to this in the quantum sense.

The Cognition of Being and Singularity refers to a single point in space-time which is neither appropriated in linear time, or in the physical space humans experience directly. The Cognition of Being is the moment of self-awareness at the point of singularity. This is the bringing-together of nowness and experience. It is a merging of the microcosm and the macrocosm. We can interpret this as the Self and the All.

According to the OED Cognition is: "the process of obtaining knowledge through thought, experience or the senses."

Being, in the aforesaid context, is the quintessence, soulfulness or permeance of the human condition as it manifests in thought and language. This self-actualization is the moment which the self-actualizing being understands their relationships both IN and TO the Universe. It is the ultimate expression of being.

Heidegger says that the Logical Schools would call his notion of language an empty tautology, asking him whether his discourse can get us anywhere in our understanding of language. He replies that we are not trying to “get anywhere”, but rather, “to understand where we already are.” Heidegger’s theory of language and being works in its own context, provided that we are willing to identify with the concepts of dif-ference and dasein.

Saussure says, all realities have their seat in the brain. If this is true, then language must be studied in relation to the being whose brain houses it as a linguistic reality. There is no way to fully study language by itself outside the context of being. What is language when divorced from the human condition? Is it still language?

Saussure distinguishes between two forms of speech; what he calls La langue (language) and La parole (concrete utterances which constitute all acts of language). Heidegger takes on the difficult task of assigning a name to that which is not nameable, in trying to illustrate the physical realities of the line and difference between the world and thing. He tells us that this is a middle “not added,” but already present in its apparent absence. This is the foundation on which Dasein is built.

Marc Paul DiMarco, From Diatribe of a Miscreant, 2006

Martin Heidegger: Poetry, Language and Thought, translated by Albert Hofstadter. Copyright © 1971 by Martin Heidegger. Reprinted in Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism. W.W. Norton & Co. 2001.

Ferdinand De Saussure: Course in General Linguistics, translated by Wade Baskin. © 1966 by the Philosophical Library, NY. Reprinted in Norton Anthology of Theory and Criticism. W.W. Norton & Co. 2001

rand

for rand to be on this list of notable or important ontologists, you need to find ontologists that say she made significant contributions, else, as I suspect, she did not make contributions per se, but merely was famous and tried to make contributions. the merits of her arguments will either be demonstrated in philosophic literature or not, if they are, then I won't remove again, as i admit, i am not familiar with the extent of the literature.--Buridan 15:27, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Talk/suggestions

• The talkpage is getting quite long, and only some of the issues required to improve the article are being addressed
• Addressing style issues only, any worthwhile additions have to fit, or else may require deletion of redundant material elsewhere
• The style and/or content of any recent improvements/changes can be discussed on this Talkpage with a view to improving the article
• The article attracts criticism, for being too dense, or obscure — with care, the writing can reveal at least the gist of the topic to a reasonably intelligent reader
• This article can be improved, suggestions can be added below — User:Newbyguesses 01:30, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

God

Is there something wrong with: "God would necessarily, according to Anselm, exist, as we could possibly imagine something to be greater than God, which would therefore be impossible."? It doesn't make sense, in particular the "we could possibly imagine" which isn't English.

What could not be represented?

There is a link to edula.com with the title above in the article. The site seems quite funny to me, I mean, not very philosophical and more of a joke. I think that link should be removed. David Andel 19:18, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Paragraph removed from lede by anon IP with no explanation & no talk

An anon IP removed from lede, with no explanation anywhere

Some philosophers, notably of the Platonic school, contend that all nouns refer to entities. Other philosophers contend that some nouns do not name entities but provide a kind of shorthand way of referring to a collection (of either objects or events). In this latter view, mind, instead of referring to an entity, refers to a collection of mental events experienced by a person; society refers to a collection of persons with some shared interactions, and geometry refers to a collection of a specific kind of intellectual activity.

While this may be too detailed for the lede, Platonic realism is an important tradition in ontology & does need to be covered somewhere

ALSO: that same IP added a paragraph on epistemology to the lede that seems off-topic - no connection of ontology to epistemology is made (other than they are "sisters"). Nearly the same paragraph was added in the past by another anon IP. Neither IP has any history of editing philosphy topics --JimWae 18:33, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

Ontological indeterminism

Hi guys! Shouldn't this article have a section on Ontological Indeterminism (or perhaps even its own article)? I'm new to the subject so apologies if I'm missing something. Amit@Talk 15:22, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I too just noticed the current wiki entry for ontology and thought that some of the sections are well done but was surprised there is no section such as the one Amit suggests or a section of criticism, if that could apply to this type of entry. For example, highly influential philosophers such as Emmanuel Levinas whose book, "Otherwise Than Being, Or Beyond Essence", attempts to discredit most conceptions of ontology, and Hilary Putnam's more recent work "Ethics Without Ontology", which has a chapter that is titled an "Obituary" on ontology. Sounds contradictory? Maybe you too participate in a Holocaust. Check out Rachel Carson's "Silent Spring" or Peter Singer's "Animal Liberation", or Kevin Danaher's critiques of the IMF and the World Bank, to name just a few. --Teetotaler 12 July, 2008

Confusing

I think this article is confusing and unclear as of Nov. 2007. Cazort 19:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I actually thought the article gave a fairly clear overview of the field. It does seem that the article lacks clear organization and might dwell too much on a few specific theorists, though. 67.171.140.29 10:57, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Metaphysics Vs Ontology

I end up reading this entry on ontology and the one in metaphysics, because i want to understand the difference between this two notions. This article says that the basic question of ontology is: what exits?. I am guessing that metaphysics then is the study of not only what exists but also how things that exist interact and change? Or, does it take a step forward and has as it subject the totality of things and interactions? Or I am wrong? 19:34, 11 December 2007 (UTC)

• My take: metaphysics tries to use "reason" to "prove" the "existence" of "things" whose "existence" is not quite so obvious - things "beyond" the physical. Early candidates were "the One", Platonic Forms, the First Cause, soul --JimWae (talk) 00:30, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

• • My take: Ontology produces a list of the things that exist, and categorizes them. For instance, physical things, non-physical things, mental things, abstract objects, universals, and so on. Metaphysics not only concerns itself with what exists, but the overall principles of existence. So the task is not merely to list or categorize but also to describe and explain. Topics would include the relationship between logic and [physical] reality, time-travel, identity, personal identity, and so on. There is a lot of overlap. --Rdanneskjold —Preceding undated comment added 03:14, 24 October 2009 (UTC).

Earlier citation

The earliest OED citation in the article is from 1721. In fact the OED has: "1663 G. HARVEY Archelogia Philosophica Nova I. II. i. 18 Metaphysics..is called also the first Philosophy, from its nearest approximation to Philosophy, its most proper Denomination is Ontology, or a Discourse of a Being." Myrvin (talk) 20:47, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Anselm's argument

Isn't Anselm making the joke that humans will term anything that's beyond their current comprehension as being God's work? Honestly I fail to see how his argument can be taken seriously in any capacity.

ον or ων

Is the participle of ειναι not ων? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jftsang (talk • contribs) 22:30, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Middle Ground,Please

Some philosophers, notably of the Platonic school, contend that all nouns refer to entities. Other philosophers contend that nouns do not always name entities, but that some provide a kind of shorthand for reference to a collection of either objects or events. In this latter view, mind, instead of referring to an entity, refers to a collection of mental events experienced by a person; society refers to a collection of persons with some shared characteristics, and geometry refers to a collection of a specific kind of intellectual activity.

This selection from the introduction gives the impression that the only alternatives are Platonism and nominalism. It ignores a vast middle ground. Aristotle for one believed collections to reflect real characteristics of things without being independent things (i.e., "entities") or mere "mental events". —Preceding unsigned comment added by JKeck (talk • contribs) 15:54, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Longer Ancient History, Changes to Introduction - Last Sections?

Hey, I just extended the section on ancient history; the idea was to show how the concept of being was progressively/variously defined in greek thought, rather than just an etymology. All the references are in-site, unless to the specific texts that were important; all this stuff is reiterated from other pages, but I selected it because of its relevance to the development of the concept of Being and beings - is this sufficient referencing? The basic points are supposed to be:

• Parmenides first thought about the nature of true reality;
• Plato introduced the problematic notion of metaphysical entities;
• Aristotle, the basic concept of discrete substantial entities, with predicable qualities/relations;
• and the Atomists the still common conception of materialism.

If this section needs changed, it would be good if these points were retained or improved.

BTW, this section really needs some pictures; if anyone can find any of Being as such, could they stick them in?

I also shifted the bit explaining Aristotle's definition of ontology to the intro, leaving his actual conclusions to the section on early history; because the shifted section (to my mind) gives a reasonable introductory sense of what ontology is. I also inserted some in-site references to nominalism, Platonic realism, AND moderate realism (as suggested) to the (now third) section on various ontological viewpoints; maybe this makes the intro too long, and this third section should be moved elsewhere? I haven't done so because it gives an introductory taste of definite ontological solutions, and suggests the possible scope of ontological problems ('apply this to...').

seriously guys, nae use

However, the last four sections (subject-object relations, body environment, Being, sociology) are a total embarrassment. Most of these relate principally to epistemology (schools of subjectivism, objectivism, relativism, positivism, &c), NOT ontology; and it seems like their individual sentences have been tacked together randomly. Even the bit on Heidegger is crap. I haven't deleted them 'cos I've already done quite a lot of major changes, and 'cos some of it MIGHT be relevant (the systems theory bit? certainly existentialism), if someone could make just how clear. As it is, it's confused and confusing.

Yes, the section headed Being is just stupid, and as it's not supported by any citations, it must go. As far as I'm concerned, the other three sections might as well go too.KD Tries Again (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2008 (UTC)KD Tries Again

Sub-fields of ontology

It would be interesting if we could get content on sub-genres of ontology, such as ontology of history, ontology of music, ontology of science, ontology of religion, moral ontology, phenomenological ontology, immanent ontology, ontology of desire, ontology of love, ontology of will, political ontology, ontology of matter, ontology of action, ontology of language, propositional ontology, representational ontology, ontology of justice, ontology of freedom, trinitarian ontology, ontology of power, ontology of truth, ontology of culture, etc. ADM (talk) 01:57, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I think it would be valuable even to just list some of these more significant sub-fields, the ones seeming most prominent to my mind being ontology of religion, moral ontology, phenomenological ontology, immanent ontology, ontology of will, propositional ontology, trinitarian ontology, and ontology of truth. Rdanneskjold (talk) 03:26, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Ontologists

Is the list of ontologists supposed to be alphabetical by last name? Why is the first one seemingly alphabetical by first name? Also, the most influential ontologist in the last... probably 1000 years, Peter Simons, is not represented on the list. His Parts: A Study in Ontology is the ontology bible these days--he needs to be on the list. Also, less celebrities but still a force in modern ontology are Achille Varzi and Dean Zimmerman. Rdanneskjold (talk) 03:32, 24 October 2009 (UTC)