Talk:Francis Spellman

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Disputed: Spellman's Homosexuality

Idle and poorly sourced gossip on this issue, fueled in part by a left-wing agenda, should have no place in this entry.65.184.58.186 (talk) 07:59, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

Don't make accusatory comments of political bias unless you can verify them. Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 11:32, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

If the claim is being made that Cardinal Spellman was homosexual, please cite the sources that make this claim and let's have a context for the reliability of these sources.

My suggestion for rewording is that "Allegations were published in the Village Voice when the Catholic Church sexual abuse crisis broke in 2002 that Cardinal Spellman had been a homosexual and well-known in New York's homosexual community. It remains a hotly disputed issue to the present day." (entered 17 Dec 2004) patsw 19:01, 24 Dec 2004 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, this concern has been handled. When this concern was posted, the sentence in question read, "In 1942 Spellman formed a liaison with a chorus boy who appeared in One Touch of Venus." [1] Now it reads "A few homosexual activists have alleged that in 1942 Spellman formed a liaison with a chorus boy who appeared in One Touch of Venus." I believe this should take care of the question. Therefore, I am going to delete the disputed warning. Remes 05:39, 13 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Anon. removed the allegation of Spellman's homosexuality. There might be a reason to do so or there might not. Let's discuss. patsw 00:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

This is very article on Spellman -- a man of intellect, influence and power. I don't object to the gossipy stuff about his alleged homosexuality but to reduce his life and accomplishments to that seems a bit ridiculous.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.74.237.92 (talk • contribs)

This is more than gossip when you take into account Spellman's known work against gay rights and his radical right-wing approach to politics. Say what you want about him but I think these are important allegations and should at least be left in as such. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Midipedia (talk • contribs) 16:55, 2 March 2008 (UTC)

There is absolutely no reliable evidence to support these allegations of homosexuality. Even the book cited by this article offers "no direct proof." In fact, the Cardinal's private secretary (who knew him for over 15 years) called these accusations "utterly ridiculous and preposterous."[2] The sources cited in support of this accusation are hardly reliable and do not meet the level of verifiability demanded by such exceptional claims. Rep016 00:16, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

I edited the article to include this passage in the Later Life section of the article: "John Cooney, one of Spellman's biographers, cited four interviewees which alledged that Spellman was a homosexual; however, no direct proof has ever been brought forward to substantiate Cooney's claims. In addition, Spellmam's personal secretary of 15 years asserts that these allegations are "utterly ridiculous and preposterous."" However, user:Otto4711 has been reverting edits which offer a point of view which is not in agreement with his, (calling some: "hostile" and "homophobic".) So, who knows how long my current edit will last. I am also going to remove the "LGBT Portal" box from this discussion page. Any reason to re-add it should be discussed here before it is re-added. Thanks. CJKpi (talk) 19:15, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

It's not a portal box. It's a project banner that merely identifies this article as being of interest to the LGBT Wikiproject. When people remove information about the subject's sexuality by calling it "a load of crap", that's hostile and homophobic. Otto4711 (talk) 19:29, 19 August 2009 (UTC)

Well sourced rumors, especially when there are many of them, certainly should be included per our NPOV policies. The LGBT categories, also per policy, should stay off until the subject self discloses their sexuality or are no longer living. Find a neutral way to report the information and source it; it took me less than a minute to find several books that could be used. -- Banjeboi 02:25, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Spellman's been dead for years. Otto4711 (talk) 04:13, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

That makes it much easier. Compare and contrast reliable sources and present a NPOV treatment from the best as to the likely nature, Spellman never spoke about ____ but newspaper accounts reported that ____. Etc. Once sourced content is added then the categories are also included. -- Banjeboi 11:29, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

While the fact that Spellman is dead makes it a bit easier re BLP, the sources are a bit tentative and have been heavily criticized for their reliabilty and accuracy. Spellman seems to fall into the "everyone knows he was gay", in which there is never any actual proof offered other than repeated rumors. I'd keep off the LGBT-related categories, unless we create new versions of Catgeory:People of the United States who are "widely known" to be LGBT. As a Cardinal in the Catholic Church, it would seem that we need strong and definitive sourcing for such claims. Alansohn (talk) 22:27, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

Benjiboi - would you mind flagging up some of those alternative sources you mention; would be really helpful to see what else we have. Many thanks. As for categories I'm fairly relaxed about whether he is or isn't on the LGBT people from the US list etc. I've always regarded such lists as a way to help people navigate easily through topics they might be interested in; but I'm conscious that lists seem to touch a raw nerve in some! The LGBT project page needs to stay though as it indicates that it's of specific interest to a group. I would discount the evidence of Spellman's secretary though - I can't imagine he would do anything other than support Spellman in public. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:46, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

• Comment. Some possible sources are here, here, here, and here. -- Banjeboi 12:18, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Very helpful indeed. Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 12:39, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

• I've split off the existing information into a separate section as it really makes little sense to stick it in the middle of the "later life" section. Otto4711 (talk) 22:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Good idea - looks sensible. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:29, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Alleged nickname

There was an edit that his gay friends called him "Fanny". Anything's possible, but this is highly unbelievable.

More relevant, the source cited for this claim DOES NOT say so. Therefore, I have deleted the claim. Bogus citations, whether sincerely cited or disingenuously cited, are a frequent occurrence at Wikipedia. (Bogus citations are those in which the source offered does not touch at all on the information it is invoked on behalf of, or does touch on the topic but does not say what the inserting editor claims it says.) Clearly, there are many people who make insertions into Wikipedia articles who don't bother to read the sources they cite, and there are other editors who check articles only by checking for the existence of citations without actually looking up the sources to read them and verify they substantiate the inserted material. BTW, it's within the realm of possibility that the edit originally was furnished with a valid citation, but that the good citation and the edit got separated in the course of later edits.

But that too is hardly likely. Here's another relevant truth: there is at least one published claim (I found it this week on the Web) that Spellman had friends (of some sort) who called him "Franny" (catch the 'R'). Now THAT is plausible; anybody who has grown up in areas of the northeastern USA with heavy Irish-American population knows that two fairly common nicknames for the boy's name, "Francis" are "Fran" and "Franny". Now, a person's nickname is rarely a notable fact. Generic nicknames like "Rosie", "Jen", "Bill", or "Bob" are especially nonnotable. Among Irish-Americans, "Fran" and "Franny" are generic nicknames. Dale Chock (talk) 02:19, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Yes agree this is suspect. I've read other articles/ books that suggest Spellman was rather nicknamed "Thelma" Spellman instead. But nicknames aren't really the thing for wikipedia - whether they're true or not. It's a bit too gossipy. Contaldo80 (talk) 10:09, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

His main biograph Robert I. Gannon says that the original name was Frank. He was given the name Francis for the priesthood? --House1630 (talk) 16:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok - if you're confident then go ahead. I queried it as it sounded counter-intuitive. A strong Catholic family would I feel have named their son Francis after the saint and then called him Frank as a nickname - that sounds to me more plausible (particularly in the 1920s). But if you've got a source then go ahead and go with Frank. Contaldo80 (talk) 16:24, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Proposed rollback reintegrating later life and sexuality info

The previous version [3] where this information was integrated read much better IMHO and I can't imagine a good article having any "alleged" subsections. I propose that the prior version be restored allowing for appropriate updating since then of content and sourcing. -- Banjeboi 03:38, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

The Friendship of Francis and Eugenio

In 1999 TIME magazine erred by choosing Albert Einstein over Eugenio Pacelli as "Person of the Century". Surely, that honor belonged to an American, not an Italian, but they were egregiously wrong.

As this is written, the Roman Church is as egregiously wrong in =denying= the beautiful, mutual love of Eugenio and his life partner, Marie Lehnert. Roosters are crowing their heads off. The friendship of Francis Spellman was founded upon his his 1927 discovery of their love. Francis gladly acted as their "beard" during the summer of 1930, when he checked out a Vatican touring machine and drove the three of them willy nilly, back and forth through the Alps for nearly two months. They sang and laughed and played and taught each other languages. Spelly could not help loving the pair of them. When Marie was left in Berlin, the men drove to Rome in silence, looking out windows with damp eyes.

Francis soon approached Pope Pius XI and said that his difficult work at the Vatican was showing need of an assistant. "Who would that be?" asked the pope. "Well, in Berlin I met a nun who is multi-talented and multilingual and energetic---. "And her name would be?" "She is called Sister Pascalina," Francis answered. "And you can't get along without her, I suppose." "No," answered Spellman in Italian with a Boston accent. "Well, I will order her transferred to the Vatican to help you in your work," Pius XI said, grinning from ear to ear. And so did Eugenio Pacelli learn about friendship. Francis had to resist putting a bow on her.

Eugenio Pacelli and Francis Spellman were complimentary geniuses. Spelly understood that, when the USA emerged from The Great War, it came home with a prize it never wanted: World Protector of the Christian Faith. Iberia and France and Europe had dropped the baton. This was a tough insight for Cardinal Pacelli who, nose to the floor and arms outspread, had committed his whole being to the annihilation of Communism and Soviet Russia. Apparently, the key to achieving his goal was a nation of Protestant bumpkins. Now what?

This is why, from 1930 on, the friendship of the two men (and Pascalina) is one of the most important in American history (and world history). In 1930 Eugenio already knew he was going to be the next pope. He had a long time to plan the salvation of the planet and the defeat of the anti-Christ. Never forget, as nuncio to Munich, Pacelli had met Adolph Hitler and made the first of many cash contributions to his anti-Bolshevik "cause".

Pacelli had the vision; Spelly had the ability to see the possible roles for the USA. Plan "A" failed on 19 November 1942 when Soviet forces turned the tide and began pushing the invaders back to Germany. Plan "B" was to get the US to accept surrender of Germany and join in the destruction of the Soviet Union. Plan "C" is what we called the Cold War. In each case, Francis Spellman was the real Military Vicar of Christ. Spelly worked for his dear friend's goals from 1958, when Pacelli died, to his own death in 1967. He pushed us to save the Asian Catholic remanant from 400 nearly wasted years of mission.

Pacem in terris. --Ed Chilton