Talk:Deaths in 2010

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Nationality of footballers in the United Kingdom

There is nothing incorrect about an entry that states "British footballer". The first word refers to the person's nationality, the second refers to the reason for notability. The expression "British footballer" has nothing to do with the competition in which the person played. I am aware of the Wikipedia provision that "British" should be replaced by English/Irish/Scottish/Welsh, but only if the person self-identified more with one of those groups. By all means change a player's nationality away from British if he identified more as English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh, but not because of the competition in which he plays. Using that logic, Cesc Fàbregas is an English footballer since that is the competition in which he plays! WWGB (talk) 01:07, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Difficult to ask someone who has died where he 'self-identified'. Equally, Willie Polland's own article describes him as a Scottish footballer. Why is that ? He played for Raith Rovers and Hearts, his home town is cited as Armadale, West Lothian - how much more Scottish does he need to be. Trust me, as an Englishman, most (nay, all) Scots hate to be described as 'British'. The differential becomes even more profound, as if it needed to, if someone gains international honours. The UK/British footie team winning the FIFA World Cup, anyone ? I watched Wales beat Scotland today in a rugby union classic. Do the players concerned think, "who cares who wins, we are all British" ?? It's bollocks.

Derek R Bullamore (talk) 01:57, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fabregas is undoubtedly a Spaniard, and is part of the Spanish national team. He merely lives in England and plays for a London team, most of whose players are foreign. I think Vinnie Jones should be described as British, as he played for Wales, though the extent of Welshness is that one of his grandparents was Welsh. Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 17:35, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think with most sports, English/N Irish/Scottish/Welsh is better, regardless of whether the player actually reached international level, because those are the teams (i.e. nationalities) 'that they were trying to represent'. This is a pretty good rule of thumb for sports where the four nations compete separately, or for individual sports where they are the nations recognised - so footballers, rugby players, golfers, cricketers and snooker players are all best described as English/Scottish etc. Sports where the team is usually GB or UK, then British is more appropriate - tennis is a good example, horse racing another (which is why I think the Dick Francis entry should read "British" not "Welsh"). There's only very few examples where either could be used, athletics being one.

Re: Vinnie Jones, that's a complicated one, because he's probably known as much for his post-retirement work as he is for football. On the former he'd be British, the latter Welsh. EJBH (talk) 02:31, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Determining a player's nationality as a consequence of their national team is a slippery slope. FA rules allow a footballer to play for a nation where he attended school regardless of place of birth or family history. So Ryan Shawcross is eligible to play for England or Wales. What next ... English-born Welsh footballer? WWGB (talk) 03:05, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If he gets selected for one team or the other, problem solved, if he doesn't he's "Welsh-English"? Using "British" seems anomalous to me when these are sportsmen for whom the ultimate goal is representing one of the Home Nations, and there isn't a British football team to play for. I suppose part of the problem is that currently internationals get the distinction, and non-internationals don't, which itself looks anomalous. So maybe the best solution is to tag all of them "British", and if they played internationally include the country in the notable team list. So for example, if Ryan Giggs were to die his entry would read "British footballer (Manchester United and Wales). No doubt you'd still get some pedant pointing out the "if they identify" rule, though... EJBH (talk) 01:38, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Shawcross' article says his parents are Welsh, so he could be described as English, English-born Welsh, Welsh, Anglo-Welsh or British. It is complicated; the nationality issue is much debated on many talk pages and edit-warred over on many articles. Lkjhgfdsa 0 (talk) 04:17, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

<sigh> Wasn't life so much simpler when we just used British on this page ... WWGB (talk) 04:25, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To make matters worse, the term "British Footballer" could mean a player of Football for a British team OR it could mean a Footballer who happens to be British regardless of the team he plays for. Also I'm reminded of the Greg Rusedski story where he's Canadian if he loses and British if he wins, not that it's important to this discussion :-) Personally I agree with listing them as what they self-identify with and if they haven't self-identified before becoming famous and before dying after becoming famous then we have to assume that the country identity they're known for is the one they identify with. 78.86.230.62 (talk) 17:43, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is more straightforward than you're making out. In the vast majority of cases it will be blindingly obvious which nationality a player is. Nobody in Britain would describe David Beckham, Kenny Dalglish, George Best, etc as "British" footballers. In some cases (ie an English born player who plays for Scotland, Wales or NI) it may be fairer to use British, to avoid controversy and to reflect their dual identity. Even in some of those cases, however, the person has made a clear self-identification (eg Andy Goram). Jmorrison230582 (talk) 07:49, 20 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

New Zealand deaths

Hi I just wanted to advise that www.amemorytree.co.nz lists 99% of all New Zealand deaths, days, if not hours after they occur. This may be a good link for your readers. Regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.236.185.88 (talk) 02:46, 14 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Criteria for being listed on Deaths article

Is the notability criteria for Wikipedia articles the same notability criteria for Deaths in year? For example, the guidelines disqualify articles about the oldest living x; yet I've seen the death of x's in the Deaths in 2010 page. What's the real story? Derrick Chapman 20:34, 1 March 2010 (UTC)

Being a country's oldest person usually qualifies them to have their own article and to be listed in articles such as this one. Even world's oldest dog or cat qualifies an animal to have its own article. I guess that is because documenting the boundaries of longevity is a subject of medical and scientific study. Oldest shop assistant or oldest construction worker would not, though. Jim Michael (talk) 02:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Alzheimer's disease

should alzheimer's be cause of death?Eugene-elgato (talk) 22:44, 1 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If that is what a reliable source says the subject died of. Some people who have Alzheimer's die of it, some die of other causes. Jim Michael (talk) 02:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Charlie Crowe entry cites BBC: He had been suffering from Alzheimer's Disease for more than a decade and passed away in North Tyneside General Hospital on Saturday night.

it doesn't say he died of Alzheimer's. He was in his 80s so it would presumably be a natural death?Eugene-elgato (talk) 12:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We can't presume. Due to the fact it takes years for Alzheimer's to be fatal, many sufferers die of other causes. The fact that the BBC article does not mention him having anything else wrong with him, along with the fact he had the disease for over a decade, strongly indicate that Alzheimer's was his cause of death. If a ref that specifically states his CoD can be found, that would be better. One thing to point out is that deaths from Alzheimer's are natural. Jim Michael (talk) 08:20, 4 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. But on the issue of presumption, I disagree. To make a presumption, that is rebuttable on evidence is not the same as making assumptions and original research; on the contrary, it is surely right to presume one thing until evidence emerges to state contrary? A presumption is merely a starting point, sometimes precariously arbitrary but nonetheless something to go on.Eugene-elgato (talk) 10:16, 7 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

We had this argument last year! I ought to know, as I was the one who instigated it. The consensus back then was that Alzheimer's disease can be a cause of death if the citation states it. Ed (talk) 03:48, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lead of page

The lead of the page says "this is a list of notable deaths in 2010". Should it be "this is a list of notable people who died in 2010". "Notable deaths" could include non-notable people who die in a notable way, thus encouraging inappropriate articles on said people. Unless of course this page is intended to include such cases. Apologies if this has been asked 1,000,564 times before.--Mkativerata (talk) 06:06, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The article is not just about "notable people", but also notable animals (eg Daddy, Deaths in February 2010#19). Maybe the term "notable deaths" was adopted as shorthand for "deaths of notable people and animals", but I can't remember. The concept of "non-notable people who die in a notable way" is interesting. Joseph Stack is considered non-notable despite his mode of death. He died one day before Daddy but does not appear in Deaths in February 2010. In recent times, the presence of a Wikipedia article about the deceased has been the determinant of notability. WWGB (talk) 06:27, 9 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I'm almost afraid to ask (for fear of perceived silliness), but a sequoia or oak tree (which is historically significant or has some other notability) would not be qualified for listing here. Right? [Special:Contributions/150.226.95.18|150.226.95.18]] (talk) 11:07, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not perceived, it's demonstrated! WWGB (talk) 11:20, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your input. Mine was intended to establish--before someone posts a Famous Trees death--just where the line is drawn.150.226.95.18 (talk) 13:33, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Death notices for those without Wikipedia articles

For those death notices for which a Wikipedia article haven't been created, what happens to them. I have noticed they get removed after 30/31 days. Do they get moved to a different page or deleted. If they do get deleted, why not leave them there for future reference! --HJKeats (talk) 11:55, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The entries are deleted, despite the fact that many of them should have articles. Some of them have articles on Wikipedia in other languages. Jim Michael (talk) 12:48, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted ... because notability is arguable without access to an article and the opportunity to challenge notability through speedy, prod or afd. There is no option to establish the notability of a redlink, and it has resulted in edit wars in the past without a structure. WWGB (talk) 12:53, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Why not keep those which reference articles in a different language, notability should not be a problem there. Why not leave all of the notices as is. They survived a month, so no question of it's validity to be there! People put some effort into capturing the notices and providing a reference, the notices could at least be kept for a year and allow some time for the articles to get created.--HJKeats (talk) 17:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It is strange that an entry on this article for an undoubtedly notable person who has a substantial, referenced, article on German Wikipedia will be deleted a month after the subject died. Could an exception be made for entries who have reliably sourced articles on Wikipedia in other languages? Jim Michael (talk) 19:01, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict)Well if it has a well sourced article in German and nobody's bothered to wrote one in English after a month, it's unlikely that it'll be created any time soon. The best thing to do is to create the article- even if you just add one sentence (as long as it's enough to establish notability) and work on it later. HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 19:05, 28 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Peter Lopez (attorney)

Does a career as an attorney representing famous musicians, including seven years for Michael Jackson, give him enough notability to be listed? Jim Michael (talk) 01:59, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Then that should be listed in the notice, not that he was the husband of someone notable.

Done WWGB (talk) 02:02, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gareth Swift

I removed this person (d. 25 April 2010) as non-notable but WWGB reinstated. Now his notice is linked to the Featherstone Rovers page, where he's not even mentioned. I dispute strongly that this person should even be listed, and I believe linking him to the club page attempts to make him appear more notable than he is, and to avoid a red link which would indicate he doesn't have an article of his own. I'd edit but fairly obviously my edit will be reverted so am opening discussion here instead.--Be best (talk) 04:15, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know what the fuss is about. Swift had played for the Featherstone Rovers first team prior to his death [1] so an article about him would probably satisfy WP:ATHLETE anyway. As for having a "blue link", that will not stop the listing being deleted on 25 May unless he has his own article (not redirect). WWGB (talk) 05:18, 2 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Gul Makai Osmani

Is this a notable death? I havent found any link to this person before the suicide attack today. --Andres arg (talk) 22:25, 5 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Armando Lucero

Does anyone know his date of death? Argentine incest suspect Armando Lucero dies

This article states "ayer" (yesterday), meaning 5 May. WWGB (talk) 22:35, 6 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

So what's up with this? Should he be listed? I would disagree, as I don't consider I think it gives people such a recognition for what they did on their life. But we don't know anything this good about person, he was a serious rapist who had seven sons with his daughter. I remember we listed the Jessica Lunsford murderer, so I don't know whether if you all agree with my suggestion (anyway, Im not going to add/remove him). --Andres arg (talk) 02:23, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Many people have said that we shouldn't have articles about criminals, and have pointed out that the victims rarely have their own biographies. However, there is a lot of mainstream media coverage of serious criminals and their crimes, and they are studied by criminologists, sociologists, psychologists etc. Jim Michael (talk) 23:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

References format

Why was it changed? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ifore2010 (talk • contribs) 21:30, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but it should be the same format for every month; at the moment some of them are this format, some of them are still in the old format. Jim Michael (talk) 23:36, 7 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have reverted them all to the old format as there was no consensus to change. As usual, it seems to be someone running amok with a WP:BOT. WWGB (talk) 00:26, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I accept it was a BOT that effected the recent changes. However, I do not see any tangible reason to differentiate this ever-ongoing article's referencing style, from the referencing format generally sought for all other Wiki pages. Or, if there is, I suggest that it should be made more obvious. Derek R Bullamore (talk) 00:45, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Past discussion about this matter at Talk:Deaths in 2008#Bare references and Talk:Deaths in 2007#References. As I have stated previously: (1) this page is heavily edited by novice users who will no doubt screw up inline references, (2) inline references make the article much longer and therefore much slower to load, (3) bare references allow immediate confirmation of the death without moving to the reflist section, (4) no-one has shown how such a major revision will actually improve the article. WWGB (talk) 01:01, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

When I saw the format yesterday (7 May 2010), my reaction was that this page was being formatted like most of the other pages in Wikipedia. I do agree with WWGB, that inline references are easier to change as updates come in. Inline references also make for less clutter on the bottom of the page as, IMO, it's unnecessary to see the title and publication of the source, at least on this page. Including that makes for more typing or more copying and pasting as well. I'm glad that WWGB took the initiative to revert to the old method. :) Addendum: I hope that bot, if it is a bot, does not revert this page back to the other format! Ed (talk) 14:16, 8 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Edit request from 95.18.188.195, 12 May 2010

recent deaths Antonio Ozores, 81, spanish actor, cancer, [`[[2]] (spanish) 12-5-2010 thanks 95.18.188.195 (talk) 16:47, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done. Cheers, tomasz. 16:54, 12 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Timothy Grubb

Relink Tim Grubb to Timothy Grubb as linked in the pages on the 1984 Olympics. --~~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Miebner (talk • contribs) 07:09, 13 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Klaus Kotter

German sports executive, died May 13th, see http://www.focus.de/sport/wintersport/bob-langjaehriger-bob-praesident-kotter-gestorben_aid_508047.html -- Aspiriniks (talk) 13:19, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Done WWGB (talk) 13:40, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ronnie James Dio

His death is not yet completely confirmed, there are many contradictory reports regarding his death. We should not post it until we have absolute confirmation of his death, or we should at least put a note that it isn't confirmed. --Starbucks95905 (talk) 19:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.ronniejamesdio.com/ That's the real deal, also here: http://www.facebook.com/OfficialRonnieJamesDio--Pookeo9 ^{Talk If you need anything} 20:06, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]