Talk:Bombing of Dresden

Edit explanation

See previous discussion Talk:Bombing of Dresden in World War II/Archive 16#Edit explanation

Understanding a Tragedy

With the utmost of respect for the suffering of the people of Dresden, we must see the wider picture. The arguments put forward for the justification of the Raid have been convincingly disputed here and elsewhere. But what of the Air Raid preparedness in Dresden?. Was the Air Raid Siren working that tragic night? (some say 'yes' other witnesses say car horns were used to warn people). The elderly people who tragically burned to death because they could not get out of burning homes, were not moved before to safer locations. Just what kind of Air Raid shelters suffocate the occupants? (well documented). We must try to understand why so many people died in Dresden that night. However much we empathise with victims of the Raid, we are still left wondering why so many civilians died. Can any Wikipedea Contributor enlighten us?.Johnwrd (talk) 23:50, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Curious - you say you have 'the utmost of respect for the suffering of the people of Dresden', yet the thrust of your argument appears to be based on victim blaming.... Logicman1966 (talk) 12:50, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

"Another contributing factor to the large loss of life in Dresden was the lack of preparation for the effects of air-raids by Gauleiter Martin Mutschmann." --PBS (talk) 13:02, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

The 3 primary reasons for the large loss of life are - (1) there were hundreds of thousands of refugees in Dresden at the time, with little or no shelter. (2) the bombing targeted the densely populated city centre. (3) the bombing was intense enough to create a firestorm. There are of course other reasons, but to blame the victim is disgraceful. Logicman1966 (talk) 01:01, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Many German cites centres were densely populated and targeted by the Allies. There were two other factors present the weather and Gauleiter Martin Mutschmann's maladministration ("little or no shelter" -- shelters were built in many other German cities, why not in Dresden?). As Mutschmann was not a victim of the bombing, I don't see how you can say laying some of the blame him is "to blame the victim". --PBS (talk) 18:33, 9 June 2009 (UTC)

Since when did we refer to the victim(s) in a sungular form? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.134.28.194 (talk) 12:14, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Lol victim blaming. The residents of Dresden earned the right to be anihilated by supporting the German war effort. Wake up and read a history book. CJ DUB (talk) 06:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

While I disagree with CJ's phrasing, he's bang on with his sentiment. Civilians weren't "innocent", & hadn't been for at least half a century. When they contributed directly to the war effort, by manufacturing weapons, they became legitimate targets. Moreover, attacking enemy morale is a legitimate military objective. (That Allied gov'ts boobed it by making no distinction between "Nazi" & "German", & by making no effort to actually measure the effects of their attacks, is beside the point.) And to absolve the Germans of their own mistakes by making them "victims" is equally wrong. There was a war on, & there'd been bombing for years; did Dresden's administrators genuinely believe they'd be spared? (Did they believe their cloak of invisibility kept the bombers from seeing them?) As noted above, Dresden was a blunder, not a crime. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 01:23, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm not so sure...I generally try to avoid these highly politicized debates, but the nature of this discussion annoys me. In my opinion, the bombing of Dresden was viewed by allied high command as 1) an opportunity to impress the soviets and 2) a punitive raid against the enemy population. I doubt they seriously considered there was any military benefit to the raid. THink about it...at this point the Germans had all but lost the war, and it was essentially a race between the Soviets and the Western allies to grab as much German soil as possible. Also, what are the odds that Allied intelligence would have known about the situation on the ground there before the raid (overcrowding, etc)? In addition to that, the raids were uncharacteristically accurate for strategic bombing of the time against a lightly defended city (although with that many bombers, it is difficult to imagine them missing the target). For those of you who feel like "blame" should be cast, you should reconsider your opinion. World War II was filled with atrocities and war crimes committed by both sides, and civilians were regularly targeted in these cases. The history books that have resulted from this period are rife with bias, although as more time has passed, that has lessened somewhat. Viewing the Western allies as unerring champions of freedom ("Lawful Good" on the D&D spectrum), fighting the chaotic evil Nazis is just as ignorant as viewing the Germans in Dresden as completely innocent non-contributors to the war effort. Try to gain some perspective, please! This is History, it happened decades ago, and no person participating in this discussion had anything to do with the decision making process that set these events in motion. We shouldn't be arguing about whether this was right or wrong, we should be talking about how to prevent this sort of thing from ever happening again! Antimatter--talk-- 19:21, 13 February 2010 (UTC)

Dead right on the LG v CE. (I would say the Allies still were mainly righteous, given the Holocaust, but OT.) You're also right, there were plenty of atrocities to go around. You're right on the "race" aspect, too. Also on the conditions in Dresden; AFAIK, Allied intel had no idea of the actual conditions in any German city, & in fact made no effort I'm aware of to find out; as Garrett (IIRC; Ethics and Airpower) points out, the Brits made no effort to measure the effect of the bombing campaign on morale, so the chance of them knowing Dresden was overcrowded is vanishingly small. I'd disagree with characterizing it as "punitive" & "war nearly over". We may know that; it was by no means clear at the time. (That's a very hard thing to recall, with so much time gone since. I've fallen in the same trap.) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 09:39, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree with user:trekphiller to that extent that if an armament factory exists, it can be legally bombed by soldiers/airmen or sailors who legally are fighting for their country (legal combatants). If I worked at a factory manyfacturing say bulletproof vests, I would like to know how someone intends to protect these instalations, should war be declared.Stat-ist-ikk (talk) 13:36, 16 April 2010 (UTC)

Thousand-Bomber Raid Redirects Here

The Wikipedia entry for thousand-bomber raid redirects to this page. Why? The thousand-bomber raids as I understand it were in 1942. More info here: http://www.raf.mod.uk/bombercommand/thousands.html Nigenet (talk) 22:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes. That should probably be modified. JoshuaZ (talk) 20:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Have removed that redirect now. That leaves an empty page though. I'm sure some experts will be along shortly to repopulate it with tasty information :-) Nigenet (talk) 11:08, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Automate archiving?

Does anyone object to me setting up automatic archiving for this page using MiszaBot? Unless otherwise agreed, I would set it to archive threads that have been inactive for 30 days and keep ten threads.--Oneiros (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

 Done--Oneiros (talk) 18:05, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Dresden file

(copied in part from respective talk pages)

How can Offensive (military) overstate the case? This operation was not just one raid but took part between 13 February and 15 February 1945. It is a correct term and adds to the grammatical structure of the sentence. Could we discus this and see either to re-implement the word or compose an alternative? --BSTemple (talk) 13:15, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

I'm thinking of "offensive" in a narrower military sense. Two days worth of attacks, IMO, don't make for a bomber offensive. Berlin was under attack for weeks; that is an offensive. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 13:43, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

In the Offensive (military) article , it shows that a bomber offensive is sometimes also known as a strategic bombing offensive, and in the strategic bombing article here, you will see (sixth paragraph down) that the Bombing of Dresden in World War II is given. It is also mentioned in the Strategic bombing during World War II article. This brings us back to strategic bombing offensive and the correct use of Offensive (military). That is why it should be in the article. --BSTemple (talk) 14:25, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Dresden was part of a strategic bombing offensive; that doesn't make the individual attacks on given cities offensives in themselves, absent more extensive operations against the given city. Hence Berlin deserves "offensive", & (arguably) so does Essen. Ploesti, no. Schweinfurt, no. Dresden, no. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 14:34, 14 February 2010 (UTC)

Use in Holocaust Denial arguments

I've added a short section about this as it's quite an important part of understanding why the casualty figures are often hugely exaggerated. I've tried to keep it brief and factual, but any improvements are welcome. EyeSerene^talk 14:07, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

No reasonable person denies the Holocaust or does not deeply feel sorry for the victims. But why not feel sympathy for the victims of the bombings,too? Useless and inhumane demonstrations of power.--Wurzeln und Flügel (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Moving page from World War II to Second World War

• 23:22, 9 July 2010 SilkTork (moved Bombing of Dresden in World War II to Bombing of Dresden in the Second World War over redirect: Correct terminology for
• 00:49, 10 July 2010 Philip Baird Shearer (moved Bombing of Dresden in the Second World War to Bombing of Dresden in World War II over redirect: Revert move. Use WP:RM process to decide on moving such a controversial page)

I reverted the move to "Second World War" there are dozens of pages in the form "Bombing of city in World War II" if this move is to be made then it needs to go through the WP:RM process. -- PBS (talk) 00:56, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

The move followed existing guidelines - WP:TIES. This is a topic about a European event, and so would normally follow European terminology (Second World War is the usage outside of America). The American air force were involved, and that adds an extra dimension, however, as it was mainly a British operation against a German city, and the terms "Second World War" are already used in the article, it is an appropriate move and I wouldn't have thought would be contentious. A possibility is simply renaming it Bombing of Dresden - which is what the German article does. SilkTork *^YES! 07:25, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW Against Dresden the USAAF launched more raids and more sorties than the RAF and it dropped close to double the tonnage of bombs. -- PBS (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

I am not sure why you think world War II is exclusively American, Take for example this page The National Archives The National Archives > Education > World War II which on the same page has "the Second World War" so it is clear to me at any rate that both expressions are used in Britain. A google search of:

• ["Second World War" site:gov.uk] About 171,000 results
• ["World War II" site:gov.uk] About 155,000 results

would appear to confirm that. -- PBS (talk) 11:03, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If you click on some of the results for "World War II" site:gov.uk you'll find that the documents mainly use the term Second World War. Example - [1], [2], [3], [4], etc. I subscribe to various history journals, such as BBC History, and there are publications and organised events which use the term World War II - it is not a complete alien! - but the standard and preferred usage in Europe is for Second World War. SilkTork *^YES! 11:52, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Second World War is the standard usage outside America, though you will, of course, find examples of WWII outside America, same as you will find examples of American spellings outside America. It's not a question of exclusivity - it's a question of standard usage, and maintaining appropriate cultural identity - it would be wrong to disregard or blank over the history and development of the term itself, so we need to be aware of WP:Systemic bias and the demographic of Wikipedia's editors, who are mainly young Americans possibly unaware that the term Second World War has a resonance for people in Europe that the term World War II does not have. Incidently, the book that you have linked to is also available as The Oxford Companion to the Second World War. In the main European books will use the title Second World War, though if the book is to be marketed in America as well, the publishers will tend to use World War II. I assert again that Wikipedia's guidelines and ethos is that where there is a strong cultural tie to a terminology then that is what should be used. That other stuff exists or it may require a bit of work to do something, should never prevent us from Doing The Right Thing. SilkTork *^YES! 11:37, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

If it is as you say then why do British Government web sites frequently use "World War II" (I linked above the the Imperial War Museum as an example) and why is it that the Monument to the Women of World War II next to the Cenotaph, and dedicated in 2005, says "World War II" on it and not "Second World War"? -- PBS (talk) 12:02, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

Interesting that one of the sources used in that article use Second World War in reporting it. As I have already said, usage of the term is not alien, and you will find examples here and there if you look hard enough - including this article on Wikipedia. My point is not that Second World War is the exclusive usage, but that it is the standard usage, that it is a usage that has resonance, and that it would be inappropriate to allow the term to be covered over and forgotten in a mistaken believe that it is more convenient to exclusively use American terminology because that terminology dominates media, publishing and the internet. I am personally quite comfortable with American terminology and usage in neutral articles, and will adjust dates to month day year and to American spelling if that is the predominent usage (or the other way if that is the predominent use). But where there may be some dissonance for the reader, then it seems to make sense to use terminology that is more appropriate. SilkTork *^YES! 18:05, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There is also the rather elegant solution of simply calling it Bombing of Dresden, as there is actually no need to use "in WWII" at all. I do believe that the sources would be calling it "Bombing of Dresden" or "Destruction of Dresden" or "Fire-bombing of Dresden" or some such, though there may be more general sources which may be called "Bombing during WWII" or some such. But specific articles or books would not need to addend the period in which it occured, as that is understood - as with Atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. SilkTork *^YES! 17:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

There are two principle reasons for not doing so. The first is that Dresden was bombarded at other times -- as have most European continental cities -- and to make it clear what the scope of the article is a de-facto standard of "Blitz" and "in World War II" have been appended to [almost] all such articles.[5] So if you wish to lop off the appendage, then I think it is larger than just this article and should be put to a WP:RM. Your other names such as "Destruction of Dresden" suffers from the same problem as "Bombing of Dresden" (and is not such a common name) and "Fire-bombing of Dresden" (is also not as common) and would exclude all but the RAF raids from this article leading us with the need to recreate this article without the the RAF raids. -- PBS (talk) 23:40, 10 July 2010 (UTC)

BTW Against Dresden the USAAF launched more raids and more sorties than the RAF and it dropped close to double the tonnage of bombs. -- PBS (talk) 11:20, 10 July 2010 (UTC) - bullshit - the RAF could drop a heavier tonnage of bombs in a night than the USAAF could in a week. Dresden was hit so hard because of the initial RAF raid, the rest of the raids aren't even mentioned in Dresden's official records. Dresden was a nine-hour return flight and a B-17 could only carry 4,000lb to Berlin, which was around 300 miles closer (a six-hour flight), so how was it possible for them to carry the same load to a place much further away. Actual B-17 loads for Dresden IIRC were around 1,500-1,800lb, per-aircraft, whatever other figures are out their are absurd. However, if you have evidence that the USAAF stripped their aircraft of every pound in weight that they could, perhaps leaving half the crew behind, and removing other heavy 'unnecessary' equipment such as guns, then that might convince me that a B-17 could carry both a 4,000lb load AND the petrol required to reach Dresden AND make it back to the UK. Actual Lancaster loads to Dresden were around 7,000-8,000lb and THAT shows how much an aircraft's bomb load is reduced by the need to carry the additional fuel when greater distances are involved. In addition, if you read any of the excellent histories by Martin Middlebrook such as The Nuremberg Raid, The Battle of Hamburg and The Berlin Raids, he gives the actual loads carried by each individual aircraft involved and that will give a reader some idea of the possible loads that could be carried to various targets, both by the RAF, and by the USAAF. Trying to imply that the USAAF had anything but a minor role to play in Dresden's suffering amounts to as great a re-writing of history in the US's favour (or should that be against) as I have seen anywhere on Wikipedia. The fact is that after the initial RAF night raid(s) the daylight raids by the USAAF were, for the most part, hardly even noticed by the inhabitants, the smoke from the fires from the previous night raid made the sky so dark that any aircraft flying above could not be seen, and the explosions of the bombs dropped were mistaken by many Dresdeners as being due to delayed action bombs dropped the night before.

And BTW, the heaviest tonnage of bombs dropped anywhere in the world on one day (or rather, night) during WW II was 10,000 long tons by the RAF on Brunswick and Duisburg on the night of 14/15 October 1944 during Operation Hurricane.

Oh, and another thing, all contemporary RAF bomb tonnage figures were given in Long tons, all USAAF ones in Short tons, and a Long ton is 240lb heavier than a Short ton. And for fuel quantities, an Imperial gallon, which the RAF's aircraft used, was 20% greater than that which USAAF aircraft used, a US gallon.

See also

Vumba you reverted an edit I made. There is a template at the bottom of the article {{WWII city bombing}} which includes all the cities I removed. Also some of the links (such as Firebombing) appear in the rest of the article. Please read Wikipedia:See also

Links already integrated into the body of the text are generally not repeated in a "See also" section, and navigation boxes at the bottom of articles may substitute for many links (see the bottom of Pathology for example)

so please explain why you think that these links should be an exception to that rule. -- PBS (talk) 22:26, 12 July 2010 (UTC)

Die Solddaten

Hochman, Stanley (1984). McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world drama: an international reference work in 5 volumes, (2 ed.). VNR AG. p. 498. ISBN 0070791694. {{cite book}}: Unknown parameter |coauthors= ignored (|author= suggested) (help) In the 1984 Hochman in what is usually seen as a reliable source published an article on "Hochhuth, Rolf (1931, )" In it with out any critical comment it says: "His second documentary Soldiers (Die Solddaten, 1967), has Churchill as a leading character and deals with the Allies' World War II air raid on Dresden, which took more lives than the bombing of Hiroshima. ...".

This is interesting for several reasons. The first is that Rolf Hochhuth according to his Wikipedia entry based his play on part on David Irving's figures and apparently the two are friends. This entry shows that many people in 1984, in good faith still believed figures derived from Irving's work were accurate. This play must have had a cultural influence (as it was in first in production in 1967, and received good reviews in London in 2004). -- PBS (talk) 09:47, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Ucucha 09:13, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

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Bombing of Dresden in World War II → Bombing of Dresden — As per WP:PRECISION, article titles should be precise and avoid unnecessary disambiguation. The appending of "in World War II" or "in the Second World War" can lead to a dispute as to which is the more appropriate term - see discussion above, yet such an appendage is not needed as the topic is well known under the title "Bombing of Dresden", and that is the term most commonly used by reliable sources. We have no articles on any other bombing of Dresden, and are unlikely to. Relisted. Arbitrarily0 ^(talk) 19:57, 23 July 2010 (UTC) SilkTork *^YES! 08:42, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose The addition of in World War II defines the scope of the article. The bombardments during the Second World War were not the only bombardments of Dresden. For example there are many references to the Prussian bombardment of 1760, and without knowing a lot about Dresden's history I bet there were other cases of bombardments and revolutionary Dresden bombings. The current name does not restrict searches for the most common name and it does affectively focus the scope of the article. -- PBS (talk) 09:16, 16 July 2010 (UTC)
• Support There may well have been a Bombardment of Dresden; there may even have been a Bombing in Dresden, but there is, so far, no evidence that there has been another Bombing of Dresden. Skinsmoke (talk) 17:43, 17 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose De facto standard titling used in many other articles. Rmhermen (talk) 21:20, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
• Comment Actually, the de facto standard titling would be 1945 Dresden bombing. Skinsmoke (talk) 12:20, 25 July 2010 (UTC)

  Not possible because of the raid on 7 October 1944. -- PBS (talk) 03:46, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.