Talk:Joseph Smith

Travelling mummy show

Under "Life in Ohio" it reads:

"...Smith also "translated" a papyrus obtained from a traveling mummy show"

According to History of the Church (2:235) On the 3rd of July, Michael H. Chandler came to Kirtland to exhibit some Egyptian mummies. There were four human figures, together with some two or more rolls of papyrus covered with hieroglyphic figures and devices. As Mr. Chandler had been told I could translate them, he brought me some of the characters, and I gave him the interpretation."

Does Brodie have different evidence that Smith went to Chandler's show? I recommend this might read better as;

"Smith also "translated" a papyrus given him by Michael H. Chandler who traveled with an exhibition (show) of Egyptian mummies. It was later published as the Book of Abraham."

This adds a name to the exhibitor and a context given the debate over who approached whom. As it stands it reads that Joseph Smith went to some random sideshow, brought home a souvenir, and translated it as scripture. The HC reference seems to suggest something quite different.

Additionally, I can't see any reference to the Book of Moses and wonder if it should not be included. Not sure why one is there and not the other. If for brevity, perhaps drop the whole line, add links and this rewrite;

"Smith also recorded two additional books of scripture, the Book of Abraham and the Book of Moses. One a translation from possible ancient Egyptian papyrus, the other received as part of Smith's "translation" of the Bible."

173.180.112.66 (talk) 08:44, 19 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

If there's no objection to using the HC as source, I've got no problem with the version you suggest above. I do agree that "mummy show" gives one the feeling that some snake-oil salesman was touring the countryside with a "gen-u-ine real-life mummy" (read: thing wrapped in rags) and duped Smith into thinking the thing was real. As opposed to the fact that it was real (as evidenced by more modern translations of the script) and Smith actually felt he was translating it. Padillah (talk) 16:59, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

The change looks good to me. Unless other sources contradict the notion that Chandler approached Smith, then that is how we should say it. From what the HC quote says, it appears that Chandler owned or was in charge of the exhibition; we could say "managed" or something similar instead of simply "traveled with", which sounds slightly odd. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:39, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I think Chandler's name is irrelevant and too much detail for a summary article like this. But I see the point that the language needs to be changed. Chandler was running a traveling mummy show and charging admission, but I don't think it was quite like a circus side-show, and it's true that Chandler did approach Smith, thinking that because of Smith's known interest in the subject, he might be a potential buyer for the extremely expensive mummies. But all this is way too much detail for such a minor point in Smith's history. All we really need to say is something like this:

"Smith also purported to translate, from Egyptian papyri he had purchased from a traveling exhibitor, a text he later published as the Book of Abraham."

COGDEN 01:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Looks great COgden. The individual isn't critical here, but could the HC record be referenced so that the name of the exhibitor is available for those wanting to research further? Also, is there evidence the papyri were purchased, if not how about 'received' in place of 'purchased' unless there is evidence to the contrary. Good proposal, COgden.

173.180.112.66 (talk) 05:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

I mostly like COgden's suggestion, but "from a traveling exhibitor" is an unclear phrase that will probably leave readers scratching their heads. Doesn't hurt to give the man's name if it works in the prose, though it's not necessary.

Smith also purported to translate papyri he acquired from Michael H. Chandler, the manager of a traveling Egyptian artifact exhibition. Smith later published the text as the Book of Abraham....comments? ~BFizz 05:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

It's a tad wordier, but I think it's clear and correct. ...comments? ~BFizz 05:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

BFizz,

Using 'acquired' is a stroke of genius. It stays neutral as to the speculation of whether the papyri were gifted, borrowed, or purchased.

173.180.112.66 (talk) 08:41, 20 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

I like it, it looks real good BFizz. Padillah (talk) 12:32, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't strongly oppose "traveling Egyptian artifact exhibition", but I think it's wordy. As to citing Chandler's name, he is such an obscure figure that he does not even have his own Wikipedia page. Where space is so precious as it is in this article, spelling the name of some obscure and otherwise unknown figure is wasteful. The article does not, for example, mention the names of George Lane, Luman Walter, or even Joseph Knight, Sr.

Also, the historical record is clear that the mummies and papyri were purchased from Chandler for $2,400. The money was donated by church members, but Smith technically owned them until his death, but that's a very minor point. Really, the details of how he acquired the mummies and papyri are not that important here--the important point is that he purportedly translated them and later published them as the Book of Abraham. COGDEN 18:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps to cut down on wordiness we could remove "Michael H. Chandler, the manager of", and simply say "papyri he acquired from a traveling Egyptian artifact exhibition". This still accomplishes the task of making the "traveling mummy show" sound a little more legitimate, as it was. ...comments? ~BFizz 18:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

(ec) I think the name of the person is only mentioned out of convention. It's just awkward to say "Smith acquired the papyri from somebody" also, we need to establish that these were real Egyptian artifacts, not some side-show snake-oil salesman. (I can't believe I'm doing this...) "Michael H. Chandler" is 19 characters long and "a traveling exhibitor" is 21 so, technically, if it's space you want to save mentioning the name is smaller but let's be real - are we truly talking about giving up content based on space? Padillah (talk) 19:00, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

The problem is, we cannot simply drop the name Michael H. Chandler without explaining who he was. Otherwise he is simply some random guy that happened to have an Egyptian papyri. So it's not a choice of name or explanation, it's name+explanation, or just explanation. Include or exclude the name; it's not a big deal to me. But the explanation has to be solid either way. ...comments? ~BFizz 19:17, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

From what I am reading in "The Rise of Mormonism: 1816-1844" (H. Michael Marquardt), the confusion over the purchase or not of the papyri comes from the fact that the papyri accompanied the purchase of 4 mummies. So In essence Smith did not in fact purchase the papyri, he purchased the mummies and the papyri were thrown in. From this context, how about,

"Smith also purported to translate, from Egyptian papyri he acquired from Michael H. Chandler [notation 'X'], a text he later published as the Book of Abraham." [Notation 'X' to read] Chandler was the inheritor by will of 11 mummies and papyri from Antonio Lebolo. These items were on display in a traveling Egyptian exhibition. Smith was required to purchase 4 mummies in order to acquire the papyri and did so for the sum of $2400. (Marquardt, H. Michael, The Rise of Mormonism: 1816-1844)

As a side note, does anyone know what ever happened to the mummies Smith purchased? Last I read Emma had them.

173.180.123.27 (talk) 00:33, 21 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

Some of the details are found at Book of Abraham#Loss and rediscovery of the papyrus. Using a footnote for extra information is a good idea, but a tiny bit of it should still be in the prose. ...comments? ~BFizz 01:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

I agree, B Fizz. What I think I am hearing is that the "tiny bit" should be the name of the individual, not just somebody or the show. Anything more I think adds even more text to an article it seems we are trying to shorten.

How about adding the descriptor 'exhibitor' as in;

"Smith also purported to translate, from Egyptian papyri he acquired from exhibitor Michael H. Chandler [notation 'X'], a text he later published as the Book of Abraham." [Notation 'X' to read] Chandler was the inheritor by will of 11 mummies and papyri from Antonio Lebolo. These items were on display in his traveling Egyptian exhibition. Smith was required to purchase 4 mummies in order to acquire the papyri and did so for the sum of $2400. (Marquardt, H. Michael, The Rise of Mormonism: 1816-1844)

173.180.123.27 (talk) 16:07, 21 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

I think this is too much information about such an obscure topic, even for a footnote. Think about it this way: this is about the same amount of information we provide, including footnotes, about the First Vision and the organization of the Church of Christ in 1830. If this information were necessary to provide context, that would be one thing, but I see this information as merely tangential trivia.

Also, it's correct to say that Smith purchased the papyri. The papyri and the mummies were a package deal, and he bought both of them. As to Chandler's name, I still say it's irrelevant. He is an obscure figure who is otherwise unknown to history other than because of this one transaction. Who cares what his name is? COGDEN 18:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Good points COgden. Looking it over I like your earlier recommendation;

"Smith also purported to translate, from Egyptian papyri he had purchased from a traveling exhibitor, a text he later published as the Book of Abraham."

173.180.123.27 (talk) 07:16, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

Purported is one of the words that should be avoided. It implies doubt or inaccuracy. The LDS movement teaches that Smith translated. Wikipedia should not be put in a position of defining doubt or inaccuracies; just report the facts.--^StormRider 08:48, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Then we should state plainly that Smith claimed he translated the papyri but modern scholars have proven that his translations were, at best, grossly inaccurate. Wikipedia is not "defining doubt" the doubt has existed since Theodule Deveria first set eyes on the translations. Wikipedia didn't create this doubt, Deveria did. With that in mind "purported" is really the kindest way to present this. Padillah (talk) 15:41, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm good with claimed. It seems to say the same thing and it's shorter. Alternatively it could be stated;

"Smith also made a translation, from Egyptian papyri he had purchased from a traveling exhibitor, of a text he later published as the Book of Abraham."

By stating "made a translation" as opposed to "translated" it seems to infer that the correctness of the translation remains open to discussion.

Still, I prefer,

"Smith also claimed to translate, from Egyptian papyri he had purchased from a traveling exhibitor, a text he later published as the Book of Abraham."

173.180.123.27 (talk) 15:53, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

I think your last suggestion looks best to me. Is there room to make mention that the claimed translation has been questioned by several academics? Just a quick link to the proper article, or is the link to the Book of Abraham enough? That article has links to the "Criticism of ..." article. Padillah (talk) 18:00, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

I think "claimed to translate" is fine because it at least alerts the reader that there is a controversy, and the reader can follow the link to the Book of Abraham article to find out about the details of that controversy. I like either claimed or purported better than the original "translated" (in quotes).COGDEN 19:39, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia policies clearly state that we don't use "claimed"; we don't alert readers to a controversy. We report the controversy. For example, historian X has stated xyz about the process. COgden, you know very well that we report facts by experts. Wikipedia should never be put in the position of stating an opinion. If there is controversey, don't infer, provide the reader the actual controversy as stated by experts. I am against the term claimed because the policy is clear that it should not be used. This is not rocket science guys; just follow the policy.--^StormRider 21:08, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

But if we don't used claimed, and simply say that Smith translated it, then everyone will be screaming POV!!! There's really no way around it besides using 'claimed' or 'purported'. (Not all circumstances can avoid these words.) Scare quotes are on the same level as using these words. We could try simply using something like "Smith said he translated..." though for this case it would make for awkward prose. I personally tend to use words like "asserted" or "affirmed" for such circumstances. But I'm fine with the latest green-text suggestion. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:20, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

StormRider, I see where you are coming from. But I don't think this is a case of alerting readers to a controversy as much as it is referencing the important debate that exists. Though I do prefer the word 'asserted' it makes for awkward or wordy rephrasing. Any suggestions on how to get around it? 173.180.123.27 (talk) 22:49, 22 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

The issue is what is more important, neutrality or awkward wording? I take neutrality every time, overwhelming so! I think several wordings have been proposed that did not violate any of the words to avoid policy. Just pick one of those and move on.

Please understand that all I am supporting is neutrality. I am not against any assertion of controversy, criticism, etc. When all else fails, let experts speak on the topic by summing their statements and using the reference.

Lastly, topics of faith do not need to have every sentence begin, "They believe", or "he said that he...". We make it clear to readers that we are reporting a history as reported by an expert(s) and then move on. If a position is contested by a reliable expert, then bring it up and reference the statement. What is absolutely clear is that we do not put Wikipedia taking a position or stating an opinion. Wikipedia does not think, does not opine, and has no opinion. Wikipedia gathers information from experts and reports on a given topic to readers. --^StormRider 02:33, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Then you are misunderstanding the phrase "Smith claims..." That is not something "We did to Wikipedia" it what the man actually claimed. I think I see what the issue is, we are not presenting the full claim. "Smith claimed to translate the papyri through the gift of God. But, upon examination by academics in the field of Egyptology, he turned out to be was wrong on all counts." Is a phrase such as this OK with you? If not please provide an actual statement you'd like to see. Don't just throw out vague referrals and ask us to guess, propose a phrasing that suits your objection. But understand, I will not support a phrase that states "Smith translated" the papyri unless it also mentions, unequivocally, that he got it wrong in every respect. You don't want Wikipedia to opine, well I don't want it to outright lie. Padillah (talk) 14:05, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to be bold here and add the variation (with claimed instead of purported) on COgden's

"Smith also purported to translate, from Egyptian papyri he had purchased from a traveling exhibitor, a text he later published as the Book of Abraham."

I know StormRider isn't happy with it, but then I don't think anything here will ever be 100% satisfied (this is an article of religious significance). If nothing else, I think we would all agree the change is an improvement to the original phrasing and maybe there will be time to rehash this one at a later date. I'm not sure about adding links so would you help me out COgden?

173.180.123.27 (talk) 18:06, 23 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

Instructions on wikilinking can be found at Help:Wikilinks. Basically, just put two square brackets (next to the 'p' button on your keyboard, usually) around a phrase, like this: [[Book of Abraham]], and it produces the link: Book of Abraham. Read the help page for instructions on using the pipe (shift+the key above enter, usually). ...comments? ~BFizz 18:15, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

StormRider, Wikipedia policy does not say you can't use the word claimed. There are guidelines that say you need to be careful using such words, but it's indeed possible to use the word claimed in a neutral way. In this case, it turns out that the mainstream scholarly consensus about the Book of Abraham is that the Book is not a translation (in any traditional sense of that word) of the papyri bought by Smith. Indeed, there is even a growing Mormon apologetic view that agrees with this, arguing that the book was inspired from the papyri, yet was not actually a translation. But we don't need to recount the mainstream view here, simply because we don't need to go into that much detail. "Claimed to translate" is in fact quite generous in favor of the old Mormon apologetic view, compared to the way it could be presented. Lets face it: the old Mormon apologetic view is not mainstream Egyptology. On that basis, I don't see anything wrong with saying "claimed", which I think is quite neutral in this context. But I'm open to other phrasings. I thought about using "Smith said...", but it seems a little inapt here, given that there is more to the story than simply what Smith said. In this case, what Smith said is in principle independently verifiable by comparing the papyri with the translation. COGDEN 18:50, 23 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually I think I did it right by just leaving the old link and editing around it.

Also, if anyone is interested, in "Life in Ohio" I moved a quotation mark from the phrase Smith's life descended into a tangle of intrigue and conflict"

"Smith's life "descended into a tangle of intrigue and conflict""

to

""Smith's life descended into a tangle of intrigue and conflict""

In looking at the original quote it begins at Smith (actually Joseph Smith's).

173.180.123.27 (talk) 18:30, 23 July 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

Joseph Smith dictating the Book of Mormon

Id like to suggest a change in pictures used under the heading 'Founding a church (1827–30)'. The current picture, en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:JosephSmithTranslating.jpg isn't clear enough to reflect the picture note. I prefer this picture: http://www.imagesoftherestoration.org/blog/wp-content/nggallery/Mormon%20Art/jstranslatingbom.jpg which is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-No Derivative Works 3.0 License, because of its clarity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canstusdis (talk • contribs) 18:53, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

It's a clearer drawing—supposedly of Smith dictating to Martin Harris—but a serious problem is that the artist has arguably misinterpreted the primary evidence from Eber Howe, Mormonism Unvailed, which says that sometimes Harris and Smith worked with a sheet between them and "at other times the Prophet would sit in a different room or up stairs." (14) The artist has turned "up stairs" into "on the stairs." Also, Smith tended to use a top hat, and it's highly unlikely that the cabin where Harris and Smith worked would have had such an elaborate banister—or any banister at all for that matter.--John Foxe (talk) 20:13, 1 August 2010 (UTC)

I tend to agree. If Smith ever translated like he did in this illustration, it would have been rare. The best descriptions have him translating out in the open, with Smith sitting on a chair, resting his elbows on his knees while his face was buried in a white top hat. COGDEN 00:42, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Very good points, thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Canstusdis (talk • contribs) 14:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I do agree that it is much more clear and appealing, despite its historical inaccuracy. However, note that the "non-commercial" part of the license is ironically considered non-free content (commercial entities are not 'free' to use it), and thus cannot be used on Wikipedia anyways. ...comments? ~BFizz 23:03, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Easter eggs and overlinking

On the Good Article nomination page, it has been argued that the article has several instances easter eggs and overlinking. I have therefore revised the introduction, which I agree had too many unnecessary links. There is a school of thought out there that introductions should have a lower link density than other parts of the article, and I'm sympathetic to that, because if a reader reads something in the intro and wants to find out more, she should skip down and read the rest of the article, rather than reading a linked article. Let me know if anyone has a problem with my proposed changes to linking in the introduction.

The rest of the article needs to be combed over. Nasty Housecat raised the following examples of overlinked terms: "Book of Mormon, golden plates, polygamy, Carthage, and many others." We need to decide how often we want to link certain terms like Book of Mormon. Once per section? (Only linking once in the whole article is probably not enough, because we don't want the reader to have to comb back through the article to find the link.) COGDEN 01:23, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

With my trusty CTRL+F skills, I've found and cut out two more links to Book of Mormon that appeared more than once per section. I think once per section is a reasonable guideline. My personal opinion is that captions don't count, and there should be at least one relevant link in each caption, though admittedly I tend to prefer more wikilinks than the average Wikipedian. ...comments? ~BFizz 00:35, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

What About Joseph's Prophecies Concerning the civil war?

One of Joseph's most famous prophecies is an accurate description of the civil war 33 years before it began. How come this isn't included? - Samuel Clayton —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Clayton (talk • contribs) 18:02, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Because this article isn't about his accuracy in prophecy - it's about his life in general. There's also quite a bit of subjective translation when talking about prophecies and the like. Unless he made a statement like "Ulysses S. Grant will pronounce General Order No. 11 on December 17, 1862" there's gonna be some subjective translation to whatever he said. And WP is not subjective, that's OR. Padillah (talk) 18:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

(Copy paste removed by User:B Fizz. See Doctrine and Covenants section 87 on lds.org.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Clayton (talk • contribs) 20:14, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Copy-pasting the whole section here is not appropriate. WP:NOTFORUM. If you have a suggestion for where and how to work this information into the article, then feel free to bring it up here. ...comments? ~BFizz 22:51, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Primary Sources

This article has tons more secondary sources than primary sources... Why? Seeing that we are supposed to simply display the facts and let the reader decide for himself, which is difficult to do when all which has been studied are books containing the opinions of other people--even if their account is considered reliable. Joseph Smith ordered the compilation of the History of the Church, six of these seven volumes describe his life alone. This is not even referenced once, which is pitiful. Bushman and Quinn are referenced at least 50 times, but what makes these other accounts any less applicable to not even be included? Using so many secondary sources is evidence alone how the article has been slightly biased--simply by placing emphasis on certain subjects such as polygamy.

It also does not make any differentiation between civil marriages and sealings and references to the rules prescribed to those involved in plural marriage. Men were required to get their wife's permission before taking on a second marriage. Joseph's story of him being a money-digger is a little different: " In the month of October, 1825, I hired with an old gentleman by the name of Josiah Stoal, who lived in Chenango county, State of New York. He had heard something of a silver mine having been opened by the Spaniards in Harmony, Susquehanna County, State of Pennsylvania; and previous to my hiring of him had bee digging in order if possible, to discover the mine. After I went to live with him, he took me and the rest of his hands, to dig for the silver mine, at which I continued to wok for nearly a month, without success in our undertaking, and finally I prevailed with the old gentleman to cease digging after it. Hence arouse the very prevalent story of my having been a money-digger." - Joseph Smith-History 1:55 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Clayton (talk • contribs) 18:39, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

I notice you are a new Wikipedia editor, and I welcome you. On the issue of primary sources, you might be interested in reading this reliable sources guideline and neutrality policy, which do not directly answer your question, but deal with source-related issues. This is a broad overview article about Joseph Smith, and doesn't really get into the fine detail for which extensive citation of primary sources would be appropriate. This article does not have a lot of room to cite primary sources, which typically have to be supplemented with secondary sources that interpret them or place them in context. Plus, for this particular article, we are lucky enough to have two very good, well respected Smith biographies that we can draw from (Bushman and Brodie), as well as many other broadly-respected secondary sources.

Contrary to Mormon mythology, it was not the case that men were always required to obtain their first wife's permission before entering a second marriage. Most of Smith's marriages were done without even the knowledge of Emma, much less her permission. Also, Smith's description of his career as a money digger is not inconsistent with the historical record, but Smith was in this case minimizing his involvement in money digging. His work with Stowell was not his only treasure quest, which have been established beyond doubt by both Mormon and non-Mormon historians. COGDEN 19:51, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

The specific part of the policy you may want to read is WP:PRIMARY. The first sentence of that section states, "Wikipedia articles should be based on reliable, published secondary sources"; another sentence nicely summarizes the idea, "Primary sources that have been reliably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them." ...comments? ~BFizz 23:08, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Joseph's view of the Godhead

This article includes Bushman's and Vogel's "arguing" how Joseph originally viewed God. But this conflicts with Joseph's supposed first vision: "It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other--This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!" - Joseph Smith, History 1832 this is before1835

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father..."- June 16, 1844

This is how I would explain the concept which so often confuses people outside of the church including myself. Joseph Smith equated Jehovah with Jesus Christ God of the Old Testament. Several prophets viewed Jehovah in the Book of Mormon: Mohonri, Jacob, and Nephi all spoke with Christ prior to his birth, when he was a spirit. Joseph Smith taught that Jehovah was our spirit brother which was chosen as Elohim's (Heavenly Father's) only begotten son. Joseph Smith taught that God created the earth through Jehovah(Jesus) by the power of the Holy Spirit, and likewise this is how Mormons worship God the Father through Jesus Christ. They are not of one Body but of one Glory. "Let us make man in our image"- Genesis 1:26 Jehovah the God of the Old Testament and Jesus are the same person in the Mormon religion so Bushman and Vogel are both right in technicality, but not when it comes to clarification. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Samuel Clayton (talk • contribs) 20:55, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Would you please identify which sentences of the article you find problematic, and propose how to fix them? ...comments? ~BFizz 23:09, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

Samuel Clayton, our job is not to decide whether Bushman or Vogel are "right". Our job is just to present their conclusions, and any other prominent, mainstream academic conclusions. We also must focus on what Smith actually taught and believed--even if his teachings and beliefs evolved over the years--rather than how modern Mormons have come to reconcile Smith's evolving or inconsistent teachings. It turns out the First Vision quote you provide here is from 1838, not 1832. In Smith's 1832 account, he simply said he saw "the Lord". The secular academic consensus is that Smith's view of the Godhead changed over the years, as he had time to reflect and develop his theology. I think most Mormon apologists will also concede that. COGDEN 02:10, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

COgden speaks accurately on how articles are written on Wikipedia. The one thing that always puzzles me is that using the Book of Mormon as the text for doctrine, I see one one doctrine that is teachable and that is the same doctrine as taught today. There are specific versus that if taken in isolation could lead one to support the doctrine of the Trinity, but when taken as a whole, the doctrine of the Trinity fails. This is why I personally find fault with all comments on a changing doctrine of Joseph. --^StormRider 03:24, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Bibliography

It has been suggested on the good article review page that we include a bibliography of Joseph Smith's writings in this article. There are, of course, issues with listing works such as the Book of Mormon, which followers believe was in fact not written by Smith, or the Doctrine and Covenants, which followers believe were revealed to him by God. Issues aside, I think it's a good idea. Discuss. ...comments? ~BFizz 21:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this is a fine idea. I also think we can overlook who "wrote" the various works of faith. They are mentioned in the article and I see no need to recap them here if that's going to cause a controversy. If that is unacceptable then we can formulate a heading that will encompass his written work as well as his "inspired" works. Padillah (talk) 12:49, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it could be easily done using phrases such as "published" or "translated what he claimed to be" ... .

96.51.55.125 (talk) 03:23, 10 August 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

Do we really need a whole section to say that he has three published works to his name plus partial credit in a church history? I think his works are mentioned in the body of the article. I don't think such a short list adds anything. COGDEN 04:34, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Polygamy and criticism of Smith

User:Weaponbb7 has written the following in his review of the article:

“ l would consider incorporating more of the Origin of Latter Day Saint polygamy as this seems to be minimized. Incorporate Criticism of Joseph Smith, Jr. into the prose. As these seem to have been minimized or left out entirely. ”

Should we consider introducing a "criticism" or "controversy" section into the article so that these key topics are not "minimized"? I personally do not see any main topics in the two articles mentioned that are not also duly treated in this article. Discuss ...comments? ~BFizz 21:24, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

I think this could be a good idea so long as it doesn't overwhelm the rest of the article. This isn't an excuse to bash the guy - it's a place where we can deposit the criticisms and label them accordingly. This would force us to ease up on the rest of the article (which critics might not like) but would provide a specific section open to criticisms (which proponents might not like). It would make presenting a balanced article much easier. Padillah (talk) 12:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I oppose a section devoted to "criticism" or "controversy," which has the potential to be both judgmental and spark indefinite edit wars. Let the reader make his own decision as to what about Smith's life is "controversial."--John Foxe (talk) 14:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ideally, critical commentary should appear in the text in the appropriate sections, and not be bundled together in a separate criticism section. Among other things, that ensures that criticism is seen in context rather than as some isolated "rant section" (cf. John Foxe's concerns about edit wars). WP:BLP doesn't make any specific suggestions along this line, but it does state "Care must be taken with article structure to ensure the overall presentation and section headings are broadly neutral". --PLUMBAGO 15:23, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I think we are talking about two different things. First, "criticisms" should appear where they are relevant throughout the article. There should not be a section which is a "repository" for facts that some people think are embarrassing about Smith. These supposedly embarrassing facts are no different than any other facts, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, and to make any distinction between the two types of facts is, IMHO, a violation of WP:NPOV

Second, the subject of "criticism" is an entirely different animal than "criticisms". While "criticisms" are just facts or alleged facts, "criticism" is a style of writing, whose counterpart is apologetics. I'm undecided as to whether we need a separate section outlining the history of Smith-related criticism and apologetics through the years. Such a section might address the concerns of editors who want to see such a section and might insist on one before the article achieves featured status, but it will be a challenge to make compact and yet meaningful, and I'm not totally convinced yet that it is necessary. In the main text, we already mention Thomas Sharp and the Expositor, which were contemporary with Smith, but we could consider briefly mentioning Eber Dudley Howe and the Spaulding theory, early apologists Orson Pratt and B.H. Roberts, modern evangelicals like the Tanners and Ed Decker, and modern apologists like FARMS. Whether or not this is a good idea, I think, will depend on the implementation. So we might want to start an experimental section and see how it looks. If it seems really out of place, or damages the quality of the article as a whole, we can remove it. COGDEN 18:32, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with this distinction. I was under the impression we would have a summary of the Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr. article. Not just a dumping ground for anybody that wants to attack Smith. Having this summary will help the article by providing a logical place for mentioning apologetic arguments rather than try to shoehorn them into the article body. But it must be restricted to actual apologetic arguments. This will also allow the body of the article to be a little more positive owing to the fact that we can move the apologetic points to a section all of their own without sacrificing the article to do it. Padillah (talk) 19:42, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm opposed to summarizing the miserable Criticism of Joseph Smith Jr. article in this biography. As COGDEN has correctly said, There's no reason to have a section of "facts that some people think are embarrassing about Smith. These supposedly embarrassing facts are no different than any other facts, as far as Wikipedia is concerned, and to make any distinction between the two types of facts is, IMHO, a violation of WP:NPOV." Besides, the last thing we need to do at this article—which has just been criticized for being too pro-Mormon—is to make the body of the article "a little more positive."--John Foxe (talk) 19:53, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Then what do you propose we do with apologetics like the Tanners? Do we just try and find a place to mention them in the article? Do we ignore them in favor of the "Criticism..." article? And what becomes of the miserable "Criticism..." article? Will we ever get around to fixing it? Although, I understand not wanting to create a problem where none exists. Padillah (talk) 20:16, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

Ignore the Tanners. Fix the "Criticism" article independently. This is a biography of Joseph Smith, and no section treating critics or apologists is necessary. Let Joseph Smith be simply who he was without anachronistically dragging promoters and detractors into his career. Start down road of trying to decide exactly who is what (Is Bushman an apologist or a detractor?), and the result will be nothing but trouble.--John Foxe (talk) 20:57, 9 August 2010 (UTC)

I don't want to dismiss Weaponbb7's comments though, because for all we know those comments might reflect the first impression of a constituency of other editors. Other than a few superficial matters that have been at least partially remedied already, Weaponbb7's comments seem to be limited to the non-biographical sections, mainly the "Legacy" section, for which we haven't devoted as much attention here on the talk page. For the "life" section, and maybe the "distinctive views and teachings" section, it's hard to argue there is much, if any, bias there. But the "legacy" section was only recently added, and maybe it needs another look. Adding a "criticism and apologetics" section could very well be a bad and unworkable idea, but here's another brainstorm: maybe we could add some material about how non-Mormons demonized Smith, as a counterpoint to the material about how Mormons deified him. Also, if you aren't paying attention when you read the "legacy" section, you might mistakenly think the article is praising Smith. Maybe there are superficial changes in the style that we can make. COGDEN 00:10, 10 August 2010 (UTC)

Revised "Impact" section

I went ahead and revised the "Impact" section a bit to include not just the Mormon view deifying Smith, but also a brief discussion of the controversies he stirred in New York/Pennsylvania, Ohio, Missouri, and Illinois. I think that is also part of his "impact". I know this is covered in detail elsewhere in the article, but maybe this would help silence the criticism that the "Impact" section is unbalanced. Comments or suggestions are welcome. COGDEN 00:47, 11 August 2010 (UTC)

I've just took it upon myself to revert all of John Foxe and COGDens "revising" edits to this section, the reason being, the way they were shaping the section was completely out of order. It was full of a highly visible, blatantly obvious negative prose full of emotionally charged attacks such as "liar" and such. It was making Joseph smith out to be some kind of criminal and tyrant, massively overlooking every single positive aspect in his life and maximising anything which made him look bad. There is no way on this entire planet I'd ever accept that as being "NPOV". It was incredibly offensive. Routerone (talk) 08:03, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

•" It was making Joseph smith out to be some kind of criminal and tyrant..." You may be overlooking the fact that many (most?) people believe that Joseph Smith was 'some kind of criminal and a tyrant'. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 12:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Depending on the reader's preconceptions, I think the section you deleted could just as easily be interpreted as showing how unfairly Smith was treated by the people in his world. Smith himself said that the angel Moroni told him that his name would be had for "good and evil" throughout the world. Right now, the "impact" section only shows how his name was for "good" among Mormons. What's wrong with showing the other half of Moroni's prophecy? Isn't the controversy and intense hostility toward him at least half of his "impact"? COGDEN 09:24, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Expert reviewer needed

I absolutely agree with the Wikipedia editor who requests a review by "someone with more expertise on this subject" before this article gets a good article rating.

I don't know anything about Mormonism, but this article clearly contains material that hss been added by vandals in an attempt to make Mormons look like superstitious idiots. Huge parts of it are taken from a "South Park" episode specifically designed to mock Mormon beliefs.

I would ask knowledgable Mormons to edit this article, removing this insulting nonsense and presenting the actual beliefs of their faith. Mardiste (talk) 21:34, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

This article has been edited for several years by Wikipedians who run the gamut of Mormon and non-Mormon views. The article is also well sourced to the best scholarship. (If you're ignorant of Mormonism, how can you be certain that the article contains "insulting nonsense.")--John Foxe (talk) 22:01, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Smith's story does probably strike most modern readers as unbelievable. But it was not nearly so unbelievable to the less cynical and less naturalistic people of his day who were open to mystical and magical religious experience. In much the same way, if Jesus or Muhammad lived today, they'd probably be dismissed as kooks, and their followers, superstitious idiots. COGDEN 22:57, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Mardiste for your comments. They are fair and accurate in a sense. There are two sides to every coin and for religious topics, perspectives become many sided. It could be said by LDS that many would not recognize the story of Joseph Smith by reading this article. This article takes a particularly areligious approach to Joseph Smith and as such, misses a significant, if not the sole reason, for his place in history. It is excludes in its entirety the perspective of Joseph Smith himself and the LDS Church. If this same approach was taken on Luther, Calvin, Muhammad, or Jesus Christ....well it would never been written in the first place in such a way. You will not find this tone used in each of their articles. One does not get the impression of crazed, superstitious, mindless lemmings following an even more depraved idiot. One generally finds some allowance for telling the story of a religious person in a simple, factual approach. This is an example where that perspective has been omitted.

On the other hand, Wikipedia is areligious. Wikipedia is not interested in what advocates think or write. In pursuit of third party, "expert" opinion, editors attempt to portray a historical picture of the individual. Where advocates of the person have been drowned out, the tone of the article takes a decidedly negative pitch highlighting things or events that have no weight; balance is lost. When advocates, in number, have the upper hand, then consensus allows for a more positive tone or at least giving balance to those historical facts and events that have the most meaning. Most advocates/members to do not actively participate on this article; I seldom if ever edit it anymore and I know a great number of LDS who have chosen the same path I have. I have more success editing other articles.

This article is more of a shrill shadow portrayed of the man Joseph Smith. It is one out of many perspectives that can be drawn. It is accurate in a sense, but a reader would never gain a clear understanding of Joseph Smith or the religion he started by reading this article alone. --^StormRider 00:01, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

This article is a model of scholarly consensus and was recently (and IMHO, unfairly) criticized as too pro-Mormon. (Can shadows be shrill?)--John Foxe (talk) 09:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Good luck finding an expert reviewer. If you pick a follower of Smith as your "expert", then critics will be displeased; if a critic, then followers will be displeased. It's hard to find middle ground with someone who made such extraordinary claims as did Joseph Smith, Jr. But from the basis of good aritcle criteria I feel this article, while far from perfect, has come a long way in the years it has been edited. I didn't expect it to be easily or automatically granted GA status, but rather, to be reviewed and receive extra outside attention to help its slow but steady progress towards FA status. The accusation that "huge parts" of this article are taken from a South Park episode is baseless. Please point me to a specific paragraph that you consider to be "insulting nonsense". ...comments? ~BFizz 16:22, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you Mardiste for speaking up. Some of us LDS have expressed the same concern, and it's nice to have it validated that it isn't merely a bias of ours since an outside voice sees it too.173.180.116.53 (talk) 16:41, 16 August 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

Mardiste said he didn't "know anything about Mormonism," so I'm gratified he agrees with you rather than me.--John Foxe (talk) 16:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Alas, friend John, the shrillness of a shade depends upon the tone of its cry. The shadow is but a faint representation of the man. My objective was not made to offend or to be taken personally, but to share my opinion. The vast majority of LDS would not recognize this article as representative of Joseph Smith or his life. It does not surprise me that critics will continue to find problems with the article; for them the article should be limited to a few words: Joseph Smith was a fraud. Anything more than that is an affront to their sensibilities. --^StormRider 17:17, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't offended in the least, Storm. I just thought I'd note some prose headed towards a deeper "shade" of purple than usual.--John Foxe (talk) 17:55, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Though I honestly do enjoy your word play as you respond to each other, this conversation accomplishes virtually nothing until we get some concrete examples of what exactly we should be fixing to make this article fulfill the good article criteria. A few reviewers were bold enough to suggest specific areas for improvement, and they were improved. What else is lacking? ...comments? ~BFizz 19:54, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree, B Fizz. As to some of the prior discussion, I disagree with the implied assumption that this article needs to somehow find a "middle ground" between hagiography and anti-Mormonism. Middle ground does exist (see Neilson & Givens, 2008, Joseph Smith Jr.: reappraisals after two centuries). However, NPOV is not about "middle ground"—it is about neutral ground. The issue of whether or not Joseph Smith was really and truly a prophet of God is irrelevant to Wikipedia. We'll leave that question to Sunday School. What we answer in this article is, what do the most respected and cited sources write about Joseph Smith, and what does a general audience most want to know about him? I think this article answers that question very well, and includes a very broad range of information about Smith, most of which is backed by the consensus of the academic community. The article also includes citations to authors with a broad range of perspectives including Mormon and non-Mormon perspectives.

But we don't include fringe views here, including some of Smith's descriptions of his own history and some of what is taught over the Mormon pulpit, except to the extent that they have historical or cultural significance. For example, we don't cite Smith's story of finding the golden plates because of some judgment that the story might be true (which is irrelevant). We cite the story because it is what initially made him regionally famous. We don't cite Smith's stories about the First Vision because we think that God and Jesus might have actually visited Joseph in the grove in 1820—we cite them in the "impact" section because long after his death, the vision became the most important element of Smith mythology (using that term in its purely academic sense). Many Mormon views about Smith, like it or not, are classed as "fringe" under Wikipedia policy. We can include some of them to the extent they are notable, to show Smith's significance to Mormonism. But because Wikipedia seeks to maintain a neutral and mainstream perspective, these views cannot have equal footing with consensus historical information about Smith. COGDEN 20:19, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm quite disappointed in the discourtesy shown Mardiste. It is clear that his statement, "I don't know anything about Mormonism" was simply meant as an open courtesy to help identify his POV. But some who did not agree with his POV, instead of listening and respecting his opinion have jumped to merely discredit him. Very poor form.

173.180.116.53 (talk) 03:40, 17 August 2010 (UTC)Canadiandy

Requested review from BYU religion professors

I've emailed some BYU professors and asked them to review the article according to Wikipedia policies and good article criteria. Part of the email was as follows:

“ The Joseph Smith, Jr. article at Wikipedia is undergoing review for "Good Article" status. Wikipedians (volunteer editors at Wikipedia) disagree about the neutrality of the article, some saying it is too pro-mormon, and some saying it is too anti-mormon.

Given your expertise on the subject, would you kindly consider reviewing the article and giving your input, anonymously or otherwise?

”

I also provided them with links and promised that if they choose to provide feedback through me that I will keep it anonymous unless they indicate otherwise. Perhaps one or more of them will be able to help us to improve the quality of the article and provide the "knowledgeable Mormon" viewpoint that has been requested. ...comments? ~BFizz 20:34, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

That was a good move. Thank you for taking the time to go the extra mile. --^StormRider 20:43, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

"That was a good move." Maybe, but it sure should be interesting. Even "knowledgeable Mormon(s)" will have to utilize reputable sources to back up their viewpoint. Cheers. Duke53 | ^Talk 21:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

p.s., I also contacted a few theology experts of my acquaintance; the notion that they may give their opinion here anonymously may appeal to them. Cheers Duke53 | ^Talk 00:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd welcome the comments of anyone, especially those writing in the field. However, unless they are willing to come forward to identify themselves, their views have only the weight of their ability to persuade us, and they will not have the benefit of their credentials to back them. The most persuasive perspective would be from a professor who has a non-BYU PhD in some field of history, and who has published articles on Mormon history in peer reviewed fora. If it's just some guy with a physics degree who dabbles in Egyptology, then I'd take their opinion with a grain of salt. Another issue is that they may be an expert in their field, but they may not be an expert in Wikipedia neutrality policy. COGDEN 00:12, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

More eyeballs is rarely a bad thing. Thanks for contacting your theologian acquaintances, Duke. Interesting it will be, if anyone responds, that is. ...comments? ~BFizz 02:00, 17 August 2010 (UTC)