Talk:Italy

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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by Rospo Matto (talk | contribs) at 02:39, 4 September 2010 (→‎SECTION ABOUT CRIME IN ITALY ???!!! OMG). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Template:VA Template:Outline of knowledge coverage

Improving the quality

  • Further to the below: the Daily Life and Leisure section is of little value, especially as it contends 'most' Italians are not interested in sports or books, in spite of other sections detailing Italian contributions to both sport and literature. Do we need to know that Italians like listening to the radio and socialising with friends? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lahiffe (talk • contribs) 14:16, 24 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Article is too long, one way of improving this is to leave one picture per section and eliminate the tedious lists of statistics from the main body (see WP:NOT#STATS).
  • There seems to be no criterium as to which companies are mentioned in the article, I view this as a type of advertising, and do not welcome it. Commercial enterprises should only be mentioned to support a point, if at all, in a country article.
  • The style is inconsistent, and some things are mentioned more than once (e.g. Renzo Piano mentioned twice in Architecture), several times infact for others.
  • The article has a very promotional tone in places (Italy the top producer of Kiwis?), and lacks NPOV. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 18:25, 4 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I respond in these ways:
  • Firstly: article may be slightly long, but really, if you take away all the refs, the article would be only about 150,000 bytes, a reasonable page size. The huge number of refs makes the page appear to be really long in bytes.
  • Secondly, there's no problem in mentioning people twice in articles.
  • Thirdly, yes, Italy is the top producer of kiwis. There's a difference between "promotional" stuff and "the truth". If the sentence said "Italy is an amazingly great agricultural producer" then that would be promotional, but a simple fact isn't.
  • Have you seen how many negative points there are in the economy section? This article contains many good and bad points, something every article should have.
  • If you think the Italy page is "one of a kind", then see Russia, UK or Hungary. These are overly tedious and long pages, not Italy. As I said, the main thing which makes Italy look overly long is the 200 or what references. If those were taken away, you'd see the article is far shorter than it really is. As it's standing, I think all editors have done a great job in helping this artice's quality, and I think, as it is now, if a few parts are mended, it could reach at least good article status.--Theologiae (talk) 07:02, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It would be nice to get the article to A class, but I wasn't referring to the size in kb, but in visible text. Theologiae, how do you justify giving the names of companies as examples? What is your criterium? Why these companies and not others? Why not mention others that give you a discount if you promise to put their name in Wikipedia? Brutal Deluxe (talk) 10:31, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not supposed to be a list of all of Italy's companies, more rather the very famous ones. It's just so a reader of the page can know briefly a few of the very top companies of the country, not any form of advertisement of promotional statements.--Theologiae (talk) 10:52, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You're missing the point. Why is there a need to provide examples of companies? Why those companies? The section is just as useful without them. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 15:19, 5 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Another point: the "fact" that Italy and "especially Rome" have an "important role in worldwide organisations" was supported by a link to the FAO job page. Whoever was responsible for that should take a long and hard look at themselves. Theologiae, I've been trying to understand what "attribution of old version of this page" means, but I have absolutely no clue. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 09:18, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
This means that, since I heard that you had to attribute information that you take from wikipedia, (I heard) that you have to do so even with an old version of the page (I may be wrong, but I didn't want to make the mistake).--Theologiae (talk) 09:33, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Do you mean reference? Are you referring to the fact that you cannot use other wiki articles as a source? Write it in Italian if it's easier. I will translate for other users' benefit. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 09:42, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
No, I mean attribution as in copying within wikipedia. I heard this, so I'm not 100% sure, but I heard that if you copy-paste any info from any revision, old or new, of a wikipedia page, you have to attribute it (as in for the CC-BY-SA 3.0 license).--Theologiae (talk) 10:10, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've never heard of it, or seen it done. I'm sure it's not a problem if you don't do it, as long as the edit summary makes sense.Brutal Deluxe (talk) 10:48, 6 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Map

Apparently, Italy is not part of the European Continent, according to the map in the top right. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.194.161.235 (talk) 23:30, 16 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]


climate

Humid subtropical climate is not a continental climate. Edit of the quote. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.9.104.11 (talk) 13:34, 12 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Most of the inland northern regions of Italy, for example Piedmont, Lombardy and Emilia-Romagna, have a humid subtropical (Köppen climate classification Cfa)." Subtropical is nonsense. I propose to alter to "temperate climate typical of the middle latitudes."Campolongo (talk) 10:33, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I have long thought that calling the climate of the Po valley subtropical was a bit barmy—are other sub-tropical regions subject to such bitter winters?—but had always put it down to my ignorance of climate science. Certainly I would encourage you to make the change. If experts revert you, on the basis of their expertise, then so be it: don’t take it personally;-) Ian Spackman (talk) 12:25, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Yep, the "humid subtropical" business has spread like a rash across a lot of entries dealing with northern Italy - see the entries Milan, Bologna, Verona etc. The corresponding Italian articles are luckily immune to it. They also mention the Koppen classification but add descriptions like "continental" or "temperate". I will insert it when I work out how to add a footnote Campolongo (talk) 18:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's not correct

Rome is not also the greatest city. It's Milan and Naples. Roma is country's largest and most populated municipality (central area). The agglomerations of Milan and Naples are most important: Milan e Naples have a little municipality (administrative limits largely unchanged since Fascism), but a big and important metropolitan area. For example like Paris.--79.26.11.221 (talk) 19:45, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Which part of the article did you have a problem with, all the mentions of Rome see reasonable. I cant see where it claims Rome is the greatest city. BritishWatcher (talk) 19:53, 14 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Where? In the template: "capital: Rome", and under this "largest city: Rome". It's not correct, I would like to delete this information. The question is most complicated. Paris, Milan, Naples have a little municipality, only administrative limits, but a great and important metropolitan area: for population, density, etc. Rome has a big municipality (for the crazyness of Mussolini, because he wanted to reconstitute also urbanisticcaly the imperial Rome "the largest municipality of Europe" (but the agglomeration of Rome is not very important - this is the truth). Example: New York 800 kmq with 8.3 inhabitants, Greater London 1400 kmq with 7.3 inhabitants... You can recognize the crazyness of Mussolini: Rome is 1285 kmq with 2.8 inhabitants, and the density is very low. --79.26.91.19 (talk) 15:05, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The largest city is Milan. The agglomeration of Milan is: 7.400.000.--79.26.91.19 (talk) 15:08, 15 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

SECTION ABOUT CRIME IN ITALY ???!!! OMG

Guys I'm very tempted to say that is a subtle form of RACISM, but I will limit myself to say that is not only incredible and inconceivable, but also completely useless this CRIME dedicated section on this page. Italy is not a failed state in the hands of mafia, not more than USA, Russia, China and so on, so we don't need a special section that points up it. In case put something in the Economy section but I think that something is already there. --Conte di Cavour (talk) 20:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

If you think that the section says that Italy is "a failed state in the hands of mafia", that is your opinion. The section uses neutral language and facts, it's for the reader to derive a conclusion. I feel it would be dishonest (and a form of censorship) to only include touristy-type information when anyone who has ever watched a bit of TV knows where the Mafia are from and what they do. WP is not here to promote Italy, but to inform. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 15:59, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
It's not for the style, but just for the fact that only Italy has a main section entirely dedicated to Crime. This is absurd and so I've merged it with Economy cause it's the right thing to link it to its issues and not just emphasize it with no reasons. --Conte di Cavour (talk) 20:30, 17 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • negroid/berber/arab blood in the southern italy in the middle ages (islamic expansion in the south coast of mediterranean europe) = crimes and race decadence..northern italy or padania is only part or italy most preserved; the central italy is a transition of the two italians nations; the west and south tuscan is center-south italy, because the north/northeast/east/center tuscan is north italy.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 187.114.196.155 (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]


I see you moved crime informations on economy section. This is ok, but much things has also been deleted. These were true facts with references. I think it is right to keep these information. I copy below the former "crime" section, maybe something can be written in a beter way but I don't think it is right to delete it all: --Mad Toad (talk) 02:38, 4 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]


The Mafia originates from Sicily and its influence is widespread in Italian society, directly affecting 22% of Italians and 14.6% of Italy's GDP,[1] while even Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi has long been accused of links with organised crime.[2] The fight against the Mafia has cost the lives of many, including the high profile assassinations of judges Giovanni Falcone and Paolo Borsellino. - - There are four separate Mafias controlling territory and business activities in four Southern Italian regions: Cosa Nostra in Sicily, Camorra in Campania, 'Ndrangheta in Calabria and Sacra Corona Unita in Puglia, exerting influence over 13 million Italians.[1] Their business involvement reaches European and global scale.[3] - - Businesses, enterpreneurs, shopkeepers and craftsmen in these regions are expected to pay a "pizzo", or protection money, to crime syndicates controlling their area. There rarely is possibility of escaping payment, and persons not complying find their business premises and their lives at risk. Those not able to meet demands might find their business partly or completely taken over by organised crime.[3] - - At 0.013 per 1,000 people, Italy has the 47th highest murder rate in the world, in a sample of 63 countries.[4] It also has the 43th highest number of rapes/1.000 people in the world, in a sample of 65 countries.[4]

Nature

Why have Nature and Vulcanism been removed (last shown here) http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Italy&oldid=379385663#Nature Art Literature etc are intact so why not Environment. I note the Wiki is not National Geographic comment but it is not Arts Review either. Italy is a very important biodiversity hotspot and the volcanoes are world renowned.Can someone explain I'm puzzled Notafly (talk) 15:11, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I merged vulcanism with topography, but I don't know what happened to nature, perhaps Conte di Cavour knows. This page is rather large and is isn't the easiest to navigate, both factors affect accessibility, so I'm in favour of reducing the numbers of headers and I agree that there is too much coverage of the fine arts. This article should cover the country, not tell us just about its finest achievements. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 17:54, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I thought Brutal’s merging of vulcanism into topography was a very sensible move. It was vulcanism which made the key point which underlies Italian geography as a whole: the interaction between the African and Eurasian tectonic plates. It would be good if somebody who understands these things expanded that section on the genesis of the Alps and the peninsula rather extensively. As for nature, yes that should be restored, and probably expanded. (Though there would be no harm in losing the See also: List of Italian birds, List of mammals of Italy, List of reptiles of Italy, List of amphibians of Italy, List of the butterflies of Italy, List of non-marine molluscs of Italy, and List of extinct and endangered species of Italy, and the picture of a very barren looking bit of the Val d’Orcia. Ian Spackman (talk) 18:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That's quite flattering. I'd suggest merging nature with the environment section.
The very long list of see alsos was introduced by a user who loved that kind of thing and also introduced a lot of bad citations, which is another issue that needs addressing. Brutal Deluxe (talk) 19:22, 1 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ a b Kington, Tom (1 October 2009). "Mafia's influence hovers over 13m Italians, says report". The Guardian. London. Retrieved 5 May 2010.
  2. ^ "Mafioso 'claimed Berlusconi link'". BBC News. 4 December 2009. Retrieved 5 May 2010.
  3. ^ a b "Italy's 'coexistence' with the mafia". The Guardian. London. 16 December 2009. Retrieved 5 May 2010.
  4. ^ a b "Crime Statistics > Murders (per capita) (most recent) by country". NationMaster.com. Retrieved 4 April 2010. Cite error: The named reference "NationMaster.com" was defined multiple times with different content (see the help page).
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