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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 83.248.239.86 (talk) at 10:16, 8 October 2010 (→‎The publication "Sex, Slander, and Salvation": new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Wikiproject?

I made these comments at Category talk:Children of God, but this topic could use a WikiProject, and also an article on Philip Sloan, most certainly notable enough. I could design a WikiProject, if there is participation and active involvement from at least a smattering of other editors... Smee 07:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

I'm always up for joining another wikiProject. Considering this has its own wiki (though it's private not a Wikia) it seems notable enough. Tyciol (talk) 21:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

New template created

I have created a new template for related articles to this one. If you wish to add it to an article, simply add {{Children of God}} to the bottom of the article. Thank you. Smee 03:03, 30 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Good job! Joie de Vivre 13:26, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Many articles added to Category:Children of God

I am glad that Smee was inspired to create this template; apparently the template was made shortly after I spent an hour mining for articles and adding them to Category:Children of God. There were so many that I created Category:Current and past members of the Children of God, Category:Books which discuss the Children of God and Category:People who researched the Children of God. It's good to see that others are interested in organizing these articles too! Perhaps more people will be interested to assist, now that there are more related articles easily available for referencing. Joie de Vivre 13:10, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wording of statement

Which way should the statement defining The Keys of the Kingdom be worded?

  • These spiritual keys are also believed to power various UFOs and other spacecraft (known as Key Craft), and can turn into swords for the purpose of fighting demons and other negative forces.
  • These spiritual keys are also believed to power various spiritual spacecrafts (known as Key Craft), and can turn into swords for the purpose of fighting demons and other negative spiritual forces.

All input is appreciated. hmwithtalk 21:55, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

My take is that the change was made by someone that knew whereof he spoke. It is interesting that the change made by the new editor makes the concept more understandable while the version enforced by Smee makes the concept look sillier. Or is that just me? --Justanother 22:45, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know enough about Children of God to really say anything either way, so that's why I'm asking. hmwithtalk 22:48, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Well, then let's AGF that the new editor made a righteous edit. It looked righteous to me and I support it. --Justanother 22:51, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

xFamily Moving On These pages which describe "Key Craft" might be helpful. Joie de Vivre 23:16, 30 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The new edit is wrong, but does not bother me enough to revert (especially since it reads a little better). The Family does not consider Key Craft to be completely and strictly spiritual, since they believe many "spirit world" entities are able to take on physical form. (A sidenote is that the Family does not believe that all UFOs are powered by the Keys; just Key Craft.) As for inserting the word "spiritual" into "negative forces," again this is not quite accurate. Some examples of "negative forces" the Keys are often called on to fight are so-called apostates and non-sympathetic media. --Monger 01:58, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting. Thanks. Here is a line from Zerby[1]:

24. I prefer to call it the key craft‚ for this craft transports the might and power and energy of the keys. It is spiritual, yet more real than life itself. Instruments of man cannot detect it, yet it is real, it is in existence. It is powerful‚ and it is to assist you in these Last Days.

That quote and many other parts of that text explain the intrinsically spiritual (or Heavenly) nature of the craft. Presenting a religion's views of spiritual or heavenly craft as just some UFOs is a degradation and, given my long history with the WP:OWNing editor that edit-warred over the change and called it "nonsense", one that I see as deliberate. They believe in spiritual craft, not UFOs. Perhaps a fine difference but a difference nonetheless and if what may well be a knowledgable editor comes here and makes that distinction then I, for one, respect that.--Justanother 03:11, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the quote. This is largely unrelated (since non-Key-Craft UFOs are not tied to the Keys of the Kingdom), but Family publications have frequently spoken about other types of UFOs which are spiritual in nature, and believe these explain some UFO sightings. They also have not ruled out alien existence or visitation, though such beliefs are not a big part of their doctrine by any means. --Monger 00:35, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

See also

I have created a See also section. The links in the See also are related to the Children of God but are not mentioned in the article. Links mentioned in the article are not in the section. Joie de Vivre 18:00, 31 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rewrite template

I don't disagree with the {{Cleanup}} template currently on the top of this article, but is the immediately following {{rewrite}} template really necessary? It says, "This article or section may need a complete rewrite." While I think the introduction might benefit from a rewrite, the placement of the template implies, at least to me, that it is referring to the entire article, and I do not agree with the template in that context. Joie de Vivre (who added the template) and other editors, what are your thoughts on this? --Monger 00:58, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It sounds like we interpret the word "rewrite" differently. The reason I placed the rewrite template is that I see the article as needing more than minor cleanup. I view the article as needing changes to the structure of the article as well as editorial work. I placed the template because the problem is not with the content or its accuracy, as the NPOV, TotallyDisputed, Original Research templates would indicate. The problem lies in the writing style (which is somewhat informal), and the way the information is organized. The basic structure is OK but it could be condensed and streamlined quite a bit. The divorce between the "History" and the "Issues" section is particularly vexing; as the timeline is presented without the interruption of governmental intervention and so forth, the rise of FREECOG, etc. Joie de Vivre 16:55, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Specific examples of what you are referring to are always better than generalisations. I am also strongly against placing {{Cleanup}} and {{rewrite}} tags without discussing it here first. Wikipedia articles will always need "cleanup" and "rewrites", but that doesn't mean we should place these tags on all articles. In fact, I think this article is much better than many articles not containing these tags. Until very specific examples (i.e., actual sentences, phrases, words, etc.) are given, I am in favour of removing both tags. --Thorwald 00:14, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
After reading both Joie de Vivre's and Throwald's responses, I am neutral on the issue. I still don't like seeing those templates at the top of the article, but I appreciate the improvements being made. --Monger 03:51, 2 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Teens 4 Christ?

Why does Teens for Christ redirect here? I see no mention of it in the article. I am trying to find information on the website teens-4-christ.org.    DangerousNerd    talk    contribs    email   20:22, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That is THE snazziest signature I have ever seen. Google "Children of God" and "Teens for Christ" together; there are some sources; here's one: from xFamily. Joie de Vivre 21:11, 12 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks, Joie. I can't take credit for it though. Saw it on a guy over at Lostpedia. I'm actually changing it though because people have said it takes up too much space in the source. sigh Thanks for the info, too. And here, for the last time, is the sig.    DangerousNerd    talk    contribs    email   00:06, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Alas. :( Joie de Vivre 16:24, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV tag added

I have also placed a {{NPOV}} template in the article - the article is clearly written from a certain POV, this needs rectifying. Sfacets 20:30, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

You have not specified the problems. Please specify what exactly is "disputed" and what changes you would have to see in order to fix the problems. Joie de Vivre 21:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
There is so much that needs changing, both OR and POV. For example "fitting the definitions of a cult used by cult watch organizations and some government organizations" or "Theologians have placed TFI's basic theology or "A central tenet to their theology is the "Law of Love," which stated simply claims that if a person's actions are motivated by unselfish, sacrificial love and are not intentionally hurtful to others," All of which both do not attribute the claims to any particular person and which are mostly original research.
The whole 'Plagiarized art' section also appears to be OR.
These are just a few examples I have found while spending 2 minutes going through the article. Sfacets 07:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
This article needs more citations. That much is clear. However, the items you pointed out are far from original research. They are simply lacking the "proof" of this provided by links to reliable sources (in most cases the claims could be supported by linking to the Family's own publications). I am removing the NPOV template again, and am personally opposed to adding it unless you point out issues which are actually contested by academics, researchers, or others who are familiar with the group. I'm not saying that is WP policy or that you don't fit such a description, but in any case I'd like to know more about what your actual problems with the claims are. --Monger 01:09, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The tone is far from objective. In fact, parts of the article appear to have been written by a cult member. Current cult members are seldom objective or completely honest about their cults, particularly when denying any legal wrongdoing. I don't understand the resistance here about acknowledging that the content may not be entirely reliable. Are you being pressured by the cult to discourage criticism? 91.132.202.96 (talk) 02:01, 4 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, Family members have been some of the most active editors of this and related articles. Some have tried to whitewash the content or simply remove information, but a few have tried to remain objective. Many excellent contributions have come directly from Family members, or as a result of their participation on talk pages. Based on the time of your comment, it appears you read this article in one of its "vandalized" states. This article would probably benefit from semi-protection, but it goes through many periods of relative stability (considering its controversial nature). --Monger (talk) 06:42, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Unless an editor states so on their userpage or something, there's no reason to assume editors are members. Furthermore, the divide between religion/cult being as gray as it is, christians aren't forbidden from editing christianity even though they might be biased in favour of it. This is ad hominem and should be avoided, criticize bad edits specifically, and if there's ongoing problems with disruptive edits by an editor viewed as unbiased then that's something to discuss with a moderator, not the talk page. Tyciol (talk) 21:16, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ricky Rodriguez murder/suicide

Again xfamily is a good resource as well as news reports but this is an integral part of the Children of God Story as he was a child of the founders and brought up in the Children of God and his claims of abuse especially against sibling Merry are substantial.

Removal of content

Links to the following in the See also section were removed:

  1. Opposition to cults and new religious movements
  2. Panton Hill, Victoria is a location of one of the communes, where a large government raid took place, and many children were removed by social services
  3. Religious prostitution is a term which may describe Flirty Fishing
  4. Love bombing describes a manipulative recruitment style
  5. Third Culture Kids is a term which describes children who spent significant time in a culture outside their own
  6. Missionary Kids is a similar term

FREECOG was one of the original groups that formed in opposition to a new religious movement, so certainly the first one should stay. The raid was the biggest news in years in Panton Hill, the second one should definitely stay. Third Culture Kids and Missionary Kids are terms used primarily in sociological contexts to describe children that spent a lot of time growing up in a culture that was not of their birthplace, family, or initial upbringing so there is no good reason not to have these. Love bombing... well, if you look at Flirty Fishing there is a strong argument for the "Family of Love" using this method. Religious prostitution, though it contains the word "prostitution", is usually used to describe "sacred whores" or "temple prostitutes" so I think is an appropriate description of Flirty fishing as well, they were having sex in order to win converts to the religion, often in exchange for money. Joie de Vivre 21:16, 13 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • These are very flimsy connections. You wouldn't put a link to Adultery in the see also section of the Bill Clinton article... Sfacets 07:37, 14 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • That they are "very flimsy connections" is simply an opinion and one I do not share (except for maybe Panton Hill). Children of members who joined this group are very much TCKs and MKs. FFing was very much a form of religious prostitution. There is an insane amount of opposition to "cults" and NRMs. Etc., etc. Everything I have just described is backed up by an almost endless list of sources. The content should, IMO, very much remain, as it is directly related to this group and this article about them. --Thorwald 03:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I find user:SFacet's comments here to be inconsistent with his stance on a "See also" section in another article. He insisted on on including the term "Dharma" in the "See also" section of "Sahaja Yoga" despite there being no sources to support the connection. When I suggested there was no obvious connection he said there was one, but when I added the very text he had written about the connection he deleted that too.[2] He appeared to be arguing that any connection between the topic and the term was sufficient for inclusion. The discussion is at Talk:Sahaja Yoga/Archive 3#Dharma, and his relevant edits are here:[3][4][5]. How is this matter different? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 20:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Ooo look who's back. Stop taking my edits out of context (as usual). Sfacets 12:55, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, my comment to Template talk:Children of God provided context as to your more recent removal of content at the template. Joie de Vivre T 13:02, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
No, actually what Will Beback is attempting to do is undermine my proposal by taking one of my edits out of the context in which it was made. Sfacets 13:04, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It was not "one" edit, it was several edits and a discussion. Please explain the difference between that case and this. How was the context different? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:47, 18 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Not Without My Sister

The book, Not Without My Sister (ISBN 978-0-00-724808-7) discusses the Children of God from the viewpoint of three of its former followers. Should this be included in the Media section, or should a separate article be written for it and included in the Books category? --JB Adder | Talk 00:30, 13 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

No, not the way it was intended. Enslaved by the cult of sex...for 25 years. By CELESTE JONES - More by this author » Last updated at 10:51am on 13th July 2007 Born into an evil cult, called the Children of God, sisters Celeste, Kristina and Juliana Jones were abused from the age of three. Torn from their parents, their childhood was dominated by the warped cult leader David Berg. [6]
Thank you for that, but I think the book mentioned in that article was already mentioned above. --59.154.24.148 04:13, 18 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I love wikipedia

this discussion page and article is so typical of wiki bull, ooh lets be oh so careful not to call a spade a spade because god forbid you offend anyone even if they are creepy kid touchers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.117.225.231 (talk) 06:50, 8 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The more and more I read discussion pages in wiki, or watch edit fights between clearly incompetent or uneducated editors, or see the blatant attempts to whitewash disgusting behaviors such as child sexual abuse, the more and more convinced I become that wikipedia is useless as a tool for anything. The opening paragraph of COG's wiki page is proof positive. It's a cult. Pure and simple. It's not described by some as a cult, it's a cult. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slagathor (talk • contribs) 12:38, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

River Phoenix quote

I'm not trying to defend the cult, but for the sake of accuracy: the way River is quoted makes it sound as if he had been sexually abused by an adult member, while what he really says is that he "made love" with other "kids"[7] and that he'd rather undo that. He doesn't connect it to the cult.--87.162.54.100 (talk) 02:15, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Here's the quote from Details magazine, from the scans you linked to above:
Is there anything you did at an early age that you wish you had waited for?
Yes—make love.
How old were you?
Four.
With whom? Another four-year-old?
Kids. But I've blocked it out. I was completely celibate from ten to fourteen. ...
River Phoenix was in the cult from age one or two (1972) until age six or seven (1977). I agree that the current mention in this article could be interpreted the wrong way. If no one else gets to it soon, I'll try to improve it. --Monger (talk) 04:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Train wreck

This article needs serious help. xfamily.org is not a reliable source and all material cited to that site should be removed. --Tom 15:17, 17 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um, why? What evidence can you provide that xFamily.org is "not a reliable source"? Also, where, specifically, does this article need "serious help"? It is easy to criticize, difficult to contribute. --Thorwald (talk) 06:47, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It fails WP:RS per self published material, extremist, ect . Also, I don't have a problem editing, except that I probably do it too much :) Anyways, --Tom 15:11, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Your response tells me that you don't know much about xFamily.org. I just did a quick check on their 4600+ articles: Over 88% of them are direct publications of The Family International... verbatim. That is not "self published material", that is material of and by the group in question. Since this group is very secretive, xFamily.org is one of the only sources of information about this group. This group does not publish its internal documents. However, xFamily.org has obtained all internal documents published by this group from its beginning up until just a few years ago (see: pubs). It was also the first source of the photographs of their group's very secretive leaders. Call that a scoop, if you will. You also wrote that xFamily.org is "extremist"; please explain. You throw around criticisms, but can't seem to back any of them up. Anything you edit on this (main) article, I will closely watch. You will have to back anything you write up. --Thorwald (talk) 20:50, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I really hadn't planned on editing this article. I had removed alot of material from biographies that was sourced to xfamily.org since I still feel it fails to be a reliable source. Anyways, --Tom 21:05, 18 January 2008 (UTC)ps, the site is a Wiki?? Anybody can edit it, correct? So just as Wikipedia is not a reliable source, so to is this site. Do you have some agenda that should be revealed? --Tom 21:07, 18 January 2008 (UTC)pss No need to anwswer after seeing this. Thanks --Tom 21:10, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
No. Only the "editors" of xFamily.org can edit its articles. You still have not provided any specific (or real) reasons as to why you feel xFamily.org fails to be a "reliable source". Anyway, of course I have an "agenda". I want Wikipedia to be the best source of information and when it can not, point to other reliable sources. I find this group (morbidly) interesting and that is why I am committed to this article and to its sources. On this subject, The Family International, I challenge you to find a more reliable and exhaustive source than xFamily.org. Don't try, you won't find one. --Thorwald (talk) 21:23, 18 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tom, when you say you've removed "alot of material from biographies that was sourced to xfamily.org," I assume you're referring to the similar "plagiarized art" sections you removed from articles about several artists including Julie Bell. That content referenced official Family publications, but in any case I do not think it was really relevant outside of the Children of God article, so I've restored it here (with some minor changes) but left it out elsewhere. Additionally, I agree with Thorwald that your accusations and criticisms here have not been helpful. Please cite specific problems. xFamily.org does not fit the WP:RS description of self-published sources or extremist sources, the latter being a particularly disingenuous accusation. As for your insinuation of uncovering some kind of hidden agenda in User:Thorwald's edits based on his edit count (or something...I'm not really sure what you were suggesting), please try to assume good faith. --Monger (talk) 19:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
If there are more/other sources for the plargiarized art business, can you please post them here? Anyways, --Tom 01:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is your objection to the xFamily.org site the fact that it is running MediaWiki as its publishing platform (even though it is not an open wiki)? I ask because the Flash presentation and Post-It GN that were already cited in the content you have again removed offer dozens of additional references to Family publications. I do not feel the claim of plagiarized artwork is so profound that it requires more than references to pretty much all of the Family publications that discuss the situation. What more are you looking for? --Monger (talk) 02:26, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Hi Monger, I am looking for other sources (newspaper, book, magazine, ect) for the claim that somebody did something wrong, possibly criminal in nature, thats all. It seems that negative material should be particularly well sourced for this project. TIA --Tom 14:13, 21 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

HBO Children of God : Lost and Found

Just saw this documentary on a streaming video site. Never knew about the COG until after watching this. This documentary was released in 2007, relatively recently. It sheds a new and more personal light on the atrocities that was ongoing within COG. To whom are interested I urge you to watch this if you have not already. turtleh (talk) 19:21, 13 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"widely referred to as a cult"

From our own dear wikipedia: New religions are often considered "cults" before they are considered religions[12] by social scientists, and usually by Christian Evangelical/Fundamentalist theologians, and by the secular public – yet these three groups do not usually have the same understanding of the term "cult". People understand the term "cult" through the most popular usage in their cultures and subcultures, which can result in homonymic conflict, a communicative conflict with people who hold a different definition of the same term. This often results in confusion, misunderstanding, and resentment between members of "cult" groups and non-members.([[8]])

What I don't understand is why some editors take things so personally. We all know how controversial new religious movements are, so there is no need to be so biased and negative like contributions from ex family members. Just try to be factual without being emotional about it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Danieljordani (talk • contribs) 16:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

User:Bretonbanquet asked for some references to my claim that The Family International is "widely referred to as a cult" (in fact, "sex cult" is even more widely used). Well, below are 114 sources/references/articles from just about every major newspaper or magazine around the world. Is that "widely" enough for you? Call it "clearly contentious" all you like, but Wikipedia should never be about political correctness. If there ever was a group that fit the definition of a "cult", it is this one. --Thorwald (talk) 01:15, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Weekly_Observer:_Cult_Activity_in_Uganda%3F
  2. Fox_News:_Cult_Members_Cause_Scene_at_Screening
  3. New_York_Post:_Slammed_with_Cult_Mischief
  4. Modesto_Bee:_Stan_St._lecturer_verifies_his_past_with_alleged_cult
  5. Sydney_Morning_Herald:_Cultbuster_on_hand_as_dad_gives_up_kids
  6. Daily_Mail:_Enslaved_by_the_cult_of_sex...for_25_years
  7. Western_Daily_Press:_Free_of_cult%27s_clutches_to_tell_their_harrowing_story
  8. Limerick_Post:_Castleconnell_in_cult_claim
  9. Limerick_Post:_Castleconnell_area_was_base_for_child_sex_cult%2C_claims_victim
  10. Nottingham_Evening_Post:_Cult_pictures_of_innocence
  11. Nottingham_Evening_Post:_Woman_tells_of_escape_from_cult
  12. Nottingham_Evening_Post:_Sixties_cult_exerted_a_powerful_influence
  13. Los_Angeles_Times:_Former_cult_member_assesses_damage_in_%27Children_of_God%27
  14. Arizona_Daily_Wildcat:_Underside_of_cult_life_emerges
  15. San_Francisco_Chronicle:_Review:_Fear%2C_sex_are_driving_forces_within_Children_of_God_cult
  16. Globe_and_Mail:_Coming_to_terms_with_an_abusive_cult_upbringing
  17. CNN_Anderson_Cooper_360:_Young_man%27s_suicide_blamed_on_mother%27s_cult
  18. Augusta_Chronicle:_Book_details_grim_abuses_suffered_by_cult%27s_children
  19. Times_Education_Supplement:_Cult_watch
  20. Charleston_Gazette:_Book_chronicles_dark_outcome_of_end-time_cult
  21. Los_Angeles_Daily_News:_Lessons_to_be_learned_when_cults_make_news
  22. The_Independent:_Cutting_Edge:_Cult_Killer
  23. The_Observer:_Cutting_Edge:_Cult_Killer
  24. London_Times:_Viewing_Guide_-_Cutting_Edge:_Cult_Killer
  25. Western_Morning_News:_Killer%27s_diary_lifts_lid_on_bizarre_cult
  26. Modesto_Bee:_Stan_State_prof_suspected_of_cult_link
  27. San_Francisco_Chronicle:_Murder-suicide_case_in_desert_evangelical_sex_cult
  28. Arizona_Daily_Star:_Stabber%27s_friends_blame_decades_of_abuse_in_sex_cult
  29. Tucson_Citizen:_Murder_suspect%2C_a_suicide%2C_raised_by_cult_to_lead
  30. New_York_Times:_Murder_and_Suicide_Reviving_Claims_of_Child_Abuse_in_Cult
  31. CNN_Anderson_Cooper_360:_Murder-Suicide_Leads_to_Secretive_Cult
  32. London_Times:_Revenge_of_a_son_on_cult_of_free_love
  33. The_Observer%2C_UK:_Sex_cult%27s_messiah_turns_killer
  34. San_Francisco_Chronicle:_Common_Thread_of_Sexual%2C_Spiritual_Abuse_Among_Cult_Defectors_Who_Killed_Themselves
  35. San_Francisco_Chronicle:_IRS_documents_show_ties_between_charity%2C_sex_cult
  36. San_Francisco_Chronicle:_Hewlett_grant_went_to_cult-linked_charity
  37. San_Francisco_Chronicle:_Flora_Family_Foundation_donated_money_to_charity_with_ties_to_infamous_cult
  38. Irish_Times:_Helping_to_Take_the_Cult_Out_of_the_Man
  39. Marie_Claire:_%22Killing_Myself_is_the_Only_Way_Out_of_the_Cult%22
  40. Cosmopolitan:_A_sex_cult_stole_my_childhood
  41. Humble_Observer:_Charitable_donation_or_cult_income%3F
  42. The_Courier_Mail:_FBI_investigates_Coast_sex_cult
  43. Hollywood_Reporter:_HBO_Documentary_Focuses_on_Cult_Kids
  44. The_Mirror:_Our_years_of_terror_growing_up_in_an_evil_child_sex_cult
  45. Gold_Coast_Bulletin:_cult_status
  46. Philippine_Daily_Inquirer:_An_insider%27s_account_of_free-love%2C_group-sex_cult
  47. ACI_Prensa:_Juez_aprueba_veracidad_de_libro_sobre_oculta_historia_de_secta_argentina
  48. Xinhua_News_Agency:_Kenya_Warns_Over_British_Evil_Cult
  49. BBC_News:_Eyewitness:_Why_people_join_cults
  50. The_Mirror:_Escape_from_the_cults
  51. The_Mirror:_My_parents_let_evil_cult_use_me_as_a_child_sex_slave
  52. National_Enquirer:_I_was_a_Hooker_for_Heaven_in_an_Evil_Sex_Cult
  53. Colorado_Springs_Gazette:_Man_who_returned_parenting_award_denies_ties_to_cult
  54. The_Independent:_Parent_of_the_Year_%60ran_camp_for_cult%27
  55. What_Magazine:_Bait_on_the_hook:_a_cult_experience
  56. The_Mirror:_How_we_escaped_the_clutches_of_a_cult
  57. Associated_Press:_Mexican_groups_accuse_U.S.-based_cult_of_sexual_abuse
  58. The_Australian:_Seized_cult_children_sue
  59. Evening_Standard:_Evil_Berg_still_leads_cult_from_beyond_the_grave
  60. London_Times:_Judge_condemns_cult%27s_founder_as_perverted_and_malign_influence
  61. Daily_Mail:_%27Reformed%27_Sex_Cult_Can_Keep_Children
  62. Globe_and_Mail:_Get_ready_to_die%2C_cult_followers_told
  63. Daily_Mail:_Free_the_children_from_this_evil_cult
  64. The_Scotsman:_Sex_cult_said_to_be_recuiting_in_Scotland
  65. Essex_Chronicle:_%27I_lost_husband%2C_home_and_almost_my_sanity_to_cult%27
  66. The_Independent:_Cult_denies_child_sex_abuse
  67. Associated_Press:_%60The_Family%27_wants_cult-hunting_group_dissolved
  68. Chattanooga_Times:_Cult_crackdown
  69. Daily_Mail:_Yard_probe_into_child_cult
  70. Evening_Standard:_We_swap_wives_in_the_name_of_Jesus%2C_says_cult
  71. New_York_Times:_Argentines_Say_a_Sex_Cult_Enslaved_268_Children
  72. The_Guardian:_Charges_against_cult_blamed_on_ex-members
  73. Toronto_Star:_33-year-old_Metro_woman_linked_to_sex-for-salvation_cult
  74. Toronto_Star:_Metro_woman_in_%27sex_cult%27_probe
  75. Hamilton_Spectator:_Burlington_kin_support_alleged_cult_leader
  76. Toronto_Star:_Two_Canadian_cult_members_arrested_in_Argentina
  77. Toronto_Star:_Anti-cult_organization_blamed_for_arrests
  78. Hamilton_Spectator:_Cult_includes_brother_of_suspect_woman
  79. Hamilton_Spectator:_Member_says_he_saw_child_sex_abuse_inside_cult
  80. Los_Angeles_Times:_Paraguay_Police_Raid_Home_Owned_by_Cult_Suspected_of_Child_Abuse
  81. Hamilton_Spectator:_Cult_provided_sex_services_to_strangers
  82. Houston_Chronicle:_Cult%27s_image_unfairly_soiled%2C_member_says
  83. Columbus_Dispatch:_Columbus_woman_says_she_escaped_cult_horrors
  84. Hamilton_Spectator:_Cult_woman%27s_jail_treatment_%27atrocious%27
  85. Columbus_Dispatch:_Woman_seeking_to_get_cult-controlled_kin_out_of_Argentina
  86. New_York_Times:_66_U.S._Cultists_Still_Being_Held_in_Argentina
  87. Columbus_Dispatch:_Woman_says_siblings_are_brainwashed_cult_victims
  88. Houston_Chronicle:_Children_of_God_Cult_Returns_as_The_Family
  89. Houston_Chronicle:_Elusive_%22father%27_of_cult_has_held_a_following_for_25_years
  90. Hamilton_Spectator:_Cult_leader_fears_AIDS_scare_at_jail
  91. Atlanta_Journal-Constitution:_The_Family:_Hippie_throwback_or_dangerous%2C_abusive_cult
  92. Hamilton_Spectator:_Burlington_woman_free_in_Argentina_cult_case
  93. Cleveland_Plain_Dealer:_Authorities_Seize_140_Cult_Children
  94. Independent_On_Sunday:_140_children_are_taken_from_cult
  95. Straits_Times:_140_Aussie_kids_saved_after_raids_on_religious_cult
  96. Sunday_Times:_Sex-cult_children_held_-_Children_of_God
  97. The_Age:_More_of_a_sect_than_a_cult%2C_says_theologian
  98. Houston_Chronicle:_A_Houston_woman_holds_hope_for_child_in_cult
  99. Straits_Times:_Members_of_banned_cult_resurface
  100. Houston_Chronicle:_Prisoner_of_a_cult
  101. New_York_Times:_Retrieving_Youngsters_From_a_Sex-Exalting_Cult
  102. Atlanta_Journal-Constitution:_Alpharetta_Mom_Working_to_Rescue_Children_From_Sex_Cult_in_Thailand
  103. Akron_Beacon_Journal:_Former_Cultist_Now_Preaches_Against_Religious_Entrapment
  104. Houston_Chronicle:_Hope_fading_for_return_of_boys_taken_by_cult
  105. UPI:_Ministry_will_seek_custody_of_cult_children
  106. Christianity_Today:_Children_of_God_Cult_Records_Higher_Numbers
  107. Calgary_Herald:_Refusing_treatment%2C_cult_member_dies
  108. Calgary_Herald:_Woman_wants_to_save_her_sister_from_cult
  109. Honolulu_Advertiser:_Did_Cult_Abduct_Two_Children%3F
  110. Daily_Intelligencer:_Cult_ordeal_has_changed_family%27s_life
  111. Post_Crescent:_20_from_free-love_cult_arrested_in_Argentina
  112. Nevada_State_Journal:_Teen_flees_cult%2C_says_mind_was_kidnapped
  113. Fresno_Bee:_NY_Accuses_Cult_of_Sex_Perversion
  114. Valley_Morning_Star:_Parents_Charge_Children_Victims_of_Racket_Cult
It has nothing to do with political correctness. Nothing. The term "cult" is pejorative, thus its use is contentious for those who do not believe it to be a cult. Wikipedia is about providing verifiable information, particularly information that some people may have issues with. I am not saying CoG is not a cult - I am saying it's the kind of statement that can easily be cemented with a cite. Just pick one and put it in, then no-one can ever complain about it again, or revert you - it would have taken a whole lot less time than your above comment. Better make it a direct quote though, xfamily.org is hardly unbiased. Bretonbanquet (talk) 09:46, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I know what Wikipedia is all about, as I have been actively editing for over four years. It is sometimes difficult to define "verifiable". What passes for verification? The above links took me all of five minutes (using vi and regular expressions) to post. You should really back up statements like "xfamily.org is hardly unbiased", especially when their main page states that they strive to "maintain objectivity". --Thorwald (talk) 22:23, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there some kind of medal you want for that? Anyway, surely any kind of verification is better than nothing, when there are people who remove information because they don't like it and it's not verified. You wanted the information on there, I was merely suggesting a way to stop people taking it off. Nothing more than that, and you appear to have taken it rather personally. I don't have to back up anything, it's my opinion - but we are supposed to take an organisation's word for their objectivity just because they say so? Most people are going to need more than that. Bretonbanquet (talk) 22:41, 27 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The majority of content on XFamily is in fact news media archives and original Family publications. Some of the original articles on XFamily may not be completely objective, similar to how Wikipedia suffers from the same problem. Although XFamily is not a public wiki like Wikipedia, it is edited collaboratively by its editors and accepts outside contribution via a number of avenues. However, I can speak to the fact that it has no organizational bias. In any case, biases are not very relevant here because the links in Thorwald's list point to unedited content from major international news sources. The list could in fact be much longer, since it appears that Thorwald only included articles that use the word "cult" in their titles (not accounting for "cult" in article bodies). IMO, if XFamily were to compile a list of news media that referred to the Family as a "cult" or "sex cult", that would be a useful resource for this article. --Monger (talk) 06:17, 5 July 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Widely referred to is not strong enough. Clearly every source that makes any comment about COG (besides those in the cult itself) considers COG a cult. Wikipedia, for all those who didn;t know, is about reporting what is verifiable. If the above list of 114 sources from the worlds most respected, international, sources (New York Times, BBC News, CNN, etc) from every end of the political and religious spectrum don't make something verifiable, then nothing can ever be verifiable and all of wikipedia should be summarily deleted. I am changing the introduction to say that COG is a cult, putting this article on my watchlist, and reverting it any time someone uses OR, biased sources, or plain vandalism to make a change. Oh and this article would also contradict itself without my change (check the heading people, even it calls COG a cult). Sas556 (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Rather then get into 3R War

Acoodrding to WP:LABEL: Some words may be used to label a group from an outside perspective, even though these words are used in accordance with a dictionary definition. For example:

Such terms, even when accurate, often convey to readers an implied viewpoint: that of outsiders looking in and labeling as they see it. The fact that a term is accepted "outside" but not "inside" is a good indicator that it may not be neutral.

There are at least three ways to deal with this: attribute the term to reliable sources; replace the label with information; or use a more neutral term. These three approaches are illustrated as follows:

We can not just label it a cult in the lede Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:14, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed it: "referred to as a cult". If the 114 references above are added, I think "widely referred to as a cult" is approriate. If you really want to list all the organizations describing CoG as a cult, per the Peoples Temple example above, it would make the sentence a bit unwieldy. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:29, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Then it should be a sperate subsection of the acusations, it is giving equal weight to popular opinion rather than acdemic facts. It is popular belief they are cult, Acdemicly fact they are NRM. Secondly i dont Give Weight to Rick Ross and xfamily as they are collection of artilces that A:violate External and citation link giudlines B. Soley exist to support a POV not inform leaving more artilces on the net that disagree with them.Weaponbb7 (talk) 20:54, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
As for Peoples Temple, the present article has pseudo-religious, which doesn't seem much better than cult to me. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:32, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]
People's Temple was not a Precedent it was an example quoted from a Wikipedia Guidline. Weaponbb7 (talk) 17:44, 16 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Children of God vs. Family International

Why is it that if the group's current name is the "Family International" the article still pops up as the "Children of God"? I think the main title of the article should be changed to the "Family International" as opposed to the "Children of God". The reasons being:

  1. It might be found offensive to call a group by their former name as opposed to their current name.
  2. On all other wikipedia articles the current name appears firstly, and the former afterwards.

We should consider this for change. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Seb fisher (talk • contribs) 06:49, 24 October 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the rule of thumb for article names on Wikipedia is to go with the best-known name or most likely search term. In this case, I think that Children of God is the more likely search term AND the better-known name. Family International redirects to Children of God (cult). —Hello, Control Hello, Tony 13:18, 14 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]
While initially that is the more well-known term, it stands to reason that the longer they use 'Family International', the more well known that term will become, just as 'Children of God' becomes less well known with the passage of time. Considering all the changes that have occured in the organization and the large size of this article, maybe it would be valuable to split it into separate articles? They would of course reference each other, but one to describe the organization's past troublesome era as CoG and more recent issues as TFI? Tyciol (talk) 21:18, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
No. I do not agree. They are far more well known as the Children of God and the article is far more likely to be found that way. We have all of the necessary redirects. These are not to different organizations; they simply just changed their name. The title should remain. --Thorwald (talk) 22:06, 10 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Trimmed down EL sect, added {{No more links}}. It was beginning to become a linkfarm. Cirt (talk) 14:46, 29 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was no consensus to move the page, per the discussion below. Dekimasuよ! 23:58, 7 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Children of God (cult) → Children of God — Children of God (cult) is clearly the primary topic: it is vastly more recognizable than an album, a novel, an English translation of a Hindi word, an 1800s religious group, or a song. — Whatever404 (talk) 15:44, 1 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move to Family International

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Page moved as originally proposed. Ucucha 16:21, 15 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Children of God (religious group) → Family International — - added to Wikipedia:Requested moves by Anthony Appleyard (talk) 07:01, 7 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Doing a Clean Up later this week

This article has huge issues with WP:NPOV, WP:OR, WP:SPAM, WP:PRIMARY. Weaponbb7 (talk) 22:33, 26 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

"Everyone should read"

There's a sentence in "The second generation" sub-section of "Issues" which says "Everyone should read the book, Not Without My Sister, by Kristina & Celeste Jones & Julianna Buhring, where they wrote their life stories of being in The Family International." That sentence seems pretty non-encyclopedic. The book should probably be a citation.


superman (talk) 06:34, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Fixed - thanks for pointing it out. That section is badly in need of some citations. Actually it should probably be deleted if no citations are added. Bretonbanquet (talk) 17:29, 9 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The publication "Sex, Slander, and Salvation"

The publication Sex, Slander and Salvation that is referred to in the academic section is being so heavily criticized that I think I should mention it here. http://www.skeptictank.org/wsns.htm http://www.apologeticsindex.org/c26.html http://www.xfamily.org/index.php/J._Gordon_Melton

Question is if it should be referred to as an academic publication with all this critique.

--83.248.239.86 (talk) 10:16, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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