Talk:Rosh Hashanah

Date

Gregorian dates for Jon Chungs asianness 2003 to 2007 from http://www.jewfaq.org/holiday2.htm#Dates as of 2004-12-17t14:44z. — Jeandré

I'd prefer to switch the language from "sunset", and replace it with "evening". By using the ambiguous word "evening" in all locations, we would be very NPOV, inclusive both of the common view that Jewish holidays start at sunset but don't end until nightfall, and also inclusive of the views (if any) that they really do end at sunset. What do others think? --Keeves 12:49, 17 September 2006 (UTC)

I feel that simply "sunset" should be NPOV enough. It is more clear than "evening," and twilight/evening is really an extension of sunset, both in halakha and semantically. --Eliyak T·C 03:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Semantically, no: Sunset is when the sun goes below the horizon, and is an entirely different event than dusk, which occurs later, when a certain degree of darkness arrives. They are different halachic events as well, and the halacha is uncertain as to whther the day ends when the sun is no longer visible, or when its light is no longer visible. To say that the holiday ends at sunset is simply wrong, and I will continue to fight it. A detailed discussion of this point is not appropriate for this article (it belongs in "Hebrew Calendar" or "Jewish Holidays" or something like that), and this article should keep it simple. My preference remains for either "begins at sunset" and "ends at nightfall" (or dusk), or to use "evening" at both ends. I hope more people will add their comments to this discussion. --Keeves 12:09, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Okay, there have been no other comments or suggestions, so I am now changing it to "evening". --Keeves 12:05, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

The proper word should be "sundown." All Jewish days properly begin at "sundown" and end at sunset, as the article states. All the refernces in the article should be changed accordingly, I believe. I changed one, but I don't have the time to do more. 66.108.106.230 13:31, 22 September 2006 (UTC) Allen Roth

Before I get into a dispute, I want to make sure we have defined our terms. My understanding is that "sundown" and "sunset" mean the same thing, namely, the moment when the sun passes below the horizon and is no longer visible, even though the sky is still bright. Further, my understanding is that although there are varying views in the Talmud and other authorities, in actual practice, all Jews agree that we must begin observing a holiday (however you want to define observance) no later than when the sun goes below the horizon, and that (when the holiday draws to its end) one must continue that observance past that point, and can end the holiday only when a certain degree of darkness has arrived. Is that how you understand these things? Thanks! --Keeves 17:17, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

External link

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Discussion:

Table.

Rosh Hashanah
Observed by:	Jews
Name	Hebrew: ראש השנה
Meaning:	"Beginning of the year"
Begins:	29th day of Elul
Ends:	2nd day Tishri
Occasion	Jewish spiritual new year Beginning of the Days of Awe
Symbols:	Challah bread and honey
Related to:	Yom Kippur

To the one who made this table, That was excellent idea, and nicely done! Shana Tova! MathKnight 13:19, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

However, it would be better if it was correct. It starts when Elul 29 finishes, i.e. at sunset, not on Elul 29. I'll fix that. You might want to explain the phrase "spiritual new year" which will confuse many people (what other new year is there?). --Zero 14:38, 15 Sep 2004 (UTC)

The idea and table was by Neutrality however I'm not sure who put it in. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:11, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

How many days?

This article says "Rosh Hashanah occurs 162 days after the first day of Pesach" but New Year says 163 days. I added an external link to this article that has a formula for determining the exact dates, but the formula is so convoluted I can't figure out if 162 is correct, 163 is correct, or sometimes one or the other. Anyone? SWAdair | Talk 05:34, 1 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Quartanzans?

Do these exist? The poster has a track record of nonsense/suspect edits. Charles Matthews 11:43, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

See Talk:Matzo. 68.81.231.127 23:55, 20 Feb 2005 (UTC)

Rosh hashanah on a Wednesday

The article says that Rosh Hashanah is never on a Wednesday, but then it shows that 9/12/07 is Rosh Hashanah, which is a Wednesday!

It must be an error, unless it says that it begins at sunset... which if you look at that table, it does say that. My calendar says Rosh Hashanah on Thursday, 9/13/2007, which on a common calendar is still a Wednesday, 9/12/2007. CJLippert 03:56, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

WikiProject Holidays

You may be interested in the WikiProject, WikiProject Holidays, a WikiProject that will focus on standardizing articles about Holidays. It has been around for quite some time, but I'm starting it up again, and would like to see some more members (and our original members) around the help out. Cheers. — Ilγαηερ (Tαlκ) 21:11, 21 August 2005 (UTC)

Rapture

Shouldn't there be a section explaining the Christian belief that the rapture will fall during Rosh Hashanah.

If you could first explain what "rapture" means and what proportion of Christians attach any significance to Rosh Hashanah... JFW | T@lk 13:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Rosh Hashana is not the Jewish new year

The Jewish new year is in Nissan as stated in Exodus 12:2 "This month shall be for you the beginning of all months, it shall be for you the first of the months of the year." It is a biblical commandment that Nissan be thought of as the first month, not Tishrei. Rosh Hashana is the day that the Jews believe the world was created, it is therefore the earth's new year, not the Jewish new year. DeFender1031 20:31, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

Good point, but as I see it, it is just semantics. Yes, Nisan is most definitely the first of the months. But there are other ways to look at years also. I compare it to the concept of a fiscal year or a school year. Is it wrong for schoolchildren to end their vacation with the comment that "The new year is starting soon"? I think not. --Keeves 23:52, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

I understand, my father (he's a rabbi) often uses the idea of fiscal year and school year to explain the concept of Judaism having multiple new years. However, I still say that it is a biblical commandment that nissan be the Jewish new year. The point you make about semantics is the reason I didn't edit the article directly. Because I DO hear the argument for it to be allowed to be called the Jewish new year (also given that the year number changes at this point) . Furthermore, it is widely referred to as such. I just find it interesting that that description came about. DeFender1031 01:49, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

"Rosh Hashanah" means "head of the year". I agree with the metaphor of the fiscal year, and I stand behind the article's present intro that states that RH is only one of the Jewish new years. But it is translated widely as "Jewish New Year" and see no reason to disclaim this further. JFW | T@lk 13:45, 22 September 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "Rosh Hashana" does mean "head of the year", however the term is not used biblically. Biblically it is referred to as "yom hazikaron" meaning "day of rememberance". Furthermore, it is not referred to as "Rosh Hashana" in the prayers either. The earliest mention of "Rosh Hashana" to my knowledge is mishnaic. DeFender1031 17:11, 24 September 2006 (UTC)

Not to be confused with Yom Hazikaron on the 4th of Iyar.Aleph4 12:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

Rosh Ha Shanah is the Seventh Month, not the First Month, so it is not the Jewish "new year". --- Leviticus 23:24 --- "[...]On the first day of the SEVENTH month you are to have a day of rest, a sacred assembly commemorated with trumpet blasts" --- It is unncessary to add "the Jewish New Year" to your title, since it is misleading as well as incorrect. User:84.101.119.9 02:41, September 24, 2006

The Talmud section on Rosh Hashanah begins with a statement that

There are four New Years. The first of Nissan is the new year for kings and for festivals. The first of Elul is the new year for the tithe of animals...The first of Tishrei is the new year for years...

Since Rosh Hashana is a festival, it is dated from the new year for festivals. But since it is the new year for years, the calendar changes on Rosh Hashanah. Judaism of course follows the Talmud on this one, As is often the case, the Hebrew Bible alone won't explain Jewish practice. (FYI the 4th new year is the new year for trees, on the 15th of Shevat). --Shirahadasha 01:52, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

See Tu Bishvat.Aleph4 12:58, 27 September 2006 (UTC)

It is the new year in that it is when a year starts, for example, when 5770 ends and 5771 begins. The terms "1st month", "2nd month", etc., mean the 1st month God created, the 2nd months God created, etc., and do not mean the 1st month of the year, the 2nd month of the year, etc. R.H. is the first day (or two days) of the 7th month, and of the year. The year starts with the first day of the 7th month and ends with the last day of the 6th month. 71.109.149.60 (talk) 04:31, 26 November 2010 (UTC)

Tashlich

Does anyone really use pebbles or stones for tashlich? I'd like to delete it, but figured I'd ask first. --Keeves 01:57, 25 September 2006 (UTC)

I'm sure SOMEONE out there does. Ask 10 Jews for an opinion, get 11 answers. Shalom, y'all!--Greenbomb101 21:25, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

The practce of throwing ANYTHING into the water is actually problematic halakhically, as it is transferring said object from one reshus to another, there is an added prohibition with stones, as stones are muktzah on sabbath and festivals. The whole custom is fundamentally flawed, and should therefore not be on the page at all, or be discouraged. — — DeFender1031 01:38, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

A number of authorities object to the practice of Tashlich on grounds like those listed above. The existence of a dispute and these objections can certainly be included if sourced. However, the practice is widespread, included in standard Orthodox prayerbooks, and supported by many authorities. I would stress the importance of relying on sources rather than editors' own views. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:15, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Take a look in any halakha sefer out there, they will all tell you that A) stones are muktzah B) throwing something from land into water is a transferring of reshus C) (for the case of using bread) feeding wild animals on sabbath and yom tov is also assur. If you want a source, look in any halakha sefer that deals with the prohibitions of shabbos and moed. These are NOT my own views, these are straight halakha. It's not my fault if those who print prayer books or the "authorities" are ignorant, and it is my hope that in the future, only those who actually deserve their authority obtain it. — DeFender1031 19:35, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

lo be-adu rosh

I've never heard of this one before - as far as I know the classical saying is:

lo adu rosh, ve' lo bedu pesach

i.e. Rosh HaShana is not on 146 and Pesach can not be on 246. The extra "be" in the first part is confusing! Any confirmations?

Nachmore 05:50, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

References

This whole article needs more in-line citations. Anyone know a good NPOV source that we could cite for the information. Remember 17:52, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if there's such a thing as an NPOV source, but more references and better sourcing is certainly welcome. Best, --Shirahadasha (talk) 03:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Greetings

The traditional greeting is actually "L'shana Tova", "To/for a good year", not just "Shana Tova", and the pronunication given is for the Anglicized version, not the Hebrew. In Hebrew the stresses go on the final syllables of each of these words. I didn't correct this because I didn't know how to enter the phonetic transcription into the wiki. Jaysonfire (talk) 19:29, 25 September 2008 (UTC)

More on Yom HaZikaron?

As discussed above under "Rosh Hashana is not the Jewish new year", the ur-traditional name is not Rosh Hashana. I've previously dealt with the extent to which some Wikipedians are upset when traditional or correct names are used for articles instead of popular ones, but is there any disagreement that the article's text, at the lest, should include more focus on this distinction and on the significance of the Yom HaZikaron-aspect of this, to wit, the rememberance vs. the "New Year" bit which, as others have said, tends to confuse those more familiar with traditions in which the New Year is a purely celebratory event? Czrisher (talk) 21:53, 1 October 2008 (UTC)