Talk:Ahmad Zahir

Misinformation

Album Dates
What is very unclear is the dates of the albums. The only way to prove this is to have the actual albums in their original covers and with the date of the recording. And if that can't be found, then you need to find the original recording dates from the studios-- Afghan Music, Ariana Music and Music Center.

As far as the Radio Afghanistan recordings, you can get that information from the archives at Radio Afghanistan; all the original recordings have survived with the dates, musicians and composition.

The point is, family or friends' accounts are great. But you also need recorded facts and sources. And if you got one source, excellent, now find another that backs it.

-- Farhad Azad

You are correct. The dates and release of these albums are very inaccurate. It is better to just list the albums instead of giving inaccurate dates. Some albums were released later than the years indicated here.

Nainawaaz —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nainawaaz (talk • contribs) 03:35, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

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Ethnicity Question
It is disappointing to read these argument about what tribe or people he came from.

What is known is that he was born in Afghanistan and that made him an Afghan. And if he were alive today, I am sure he would be very sad to read these silly arguments.

If you are a true fan, listen to track 7 "Aye Hamwatan" (My Countrymen) on Ariana Music album 2. Listen to the lyrics and understand what message he had for his people.

And by the way, the first song on his first Afghan Music album is "Maihun Aye Maihun" (My Country). He officially began his album series dedicated to Afghanistan. Again, listen to the lyrics, where you can sense how he felt for his country and people-- passion, love and dedication.

-- Farhad Azad

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There are people here notably user ID Anoshirawan who is spreading misinformation about Afghanistan, its culture, music, and definition. This person is knowingly spreading wrong information to spread his ideological ideas which are ethnocentric and notably anti-Pashtun. Qbzad

I wana add some more info about him, but she has blocked me. I have some good info from Ariana TV.

About the recent changes ...Ive worked hard to bring alot of accurate information through out the months so please do not erase or change my info...becuase this is wikipedia everyone is welcome to ADD info but not change information when they have no idea them selves. alot of the changes that have been made are info from Ahmad zahir.com which is someone elses work ..so no copy and pasting here and the person who made these changes dosnt realize that there was no telivison during half of Ahmad Zahir's career becuase telivision was released in Afghanistan in 1975 so Ahmad zahir's first album was long out before tv's became a regular house hold item . The Album info has been changed plz agian do not touch other peoples works ...someone has added ?'s on the years of the album to my best of knowlege those years are accurate or close enough becuase Ahmad zahir has 3-4 albums out in the late 60's. Ahmad zahir's music videos were recorded in 1976 and 1977..Khuda buwat yaaret was recorded at the time of Daud Khan in 1977. Also I beleive the same person changed the paragraph about some of his personal life like during 1976-1978 he had marriage problems with his second wife and he also was arrested a couple of times 1) becuase of Daud khan and some socalist politicians were doing purges on upper class people and anyone they saw a threat to the republic which Ahmad Zahir was a threat in thier views. 2) Ahmad Zahir was arrested also on speculation of having to be involved in the murder of Khalida Gulpar in 1976 or 1977..but he was cleared of any wrong doing becuase someone from his second wifes family murdered Khalida and forged a letter saying that khalida was killed by Ahmad Zahir becuase ..It was rumored that Ahmad Zahir and Khalida were having an affair.

the topic of Mabubillah Pacha is a rumor also so we can not speculate or blame him unless there is proof becuase there was a girl at the scene of the crime who witnessed Ahmad Zahir's death but till this day she has not said anything about it for reputation purposes. See like some of these things should not be put in the article or to replace accurate information unless who ever did this wants to make a seperate section or paragraph to ADD to the article. So I will not block this article becuase some people might have some good information about Ahmad Zahir..but if I see any HUGE changes or other peoples work's changed then I will block the Article from being edited by other users. Abdul916 18:24, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

to who ever changed the article with poor and untrue facts do not touch the article evr again ...i will block this article becuase time and time after people are vandalizing my work. Most of the info is factual nothing based on assumptions and for the person who went buck wild on my discography info ... you have no clue on what you are talking about the album shab-e hijran Afghan music #14 was recorded in 1973 before the fall of the Shah of Afghanistan my father brought the original recording of Afg #14 in 1974 when he came to the United States so you are completely inaccurate with your info on that one son saying it was recorded in 1978.. listen ppl Ahmad Zahir was pretty much not active in music through most of 1978 becuase of the death threats and his troubles with the law , the only factual info was Ahmad Zahir recorded his last album which was TOO BAA MANEE Music Center # 5 which was recorded though 1977 and completed in 1978 and was released after his death that and 1 or 2 private recorded songs for the radio even though he had a very entertaining majliss in feb or march of 79 and had said that he was going to make another album which would have been in Music Center also he was going to make 1 or 2 music videos too this is from his long time friend Amanallah Amanyaar who was head of radio kabul during the khalq times ..Masoor jamal was the head during parcham times which Ahmad zahir was already dead at that time...Farhad music there was no farhad music when Ahmad Zahir was alive ... dont base Ahmad Zahir's info on underground pakistani recording companies becuase that is what you are doing ...for example they list the original Ahmad zahir Afg music album #2 as javed music center #32 so which is fake and is not the original recordings.so sure whats next Ahmad zahir was going to record an album for Zabi music center or even Virgin records come on plzz give me a brake.. I can tell that you live in pakistan also if you want to add info on Ahmad zahir plz get the facts right and learn how to type proper english...but srry i will block this article becuase of made up and untrue asumptions. Abdul916 18:26, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Where do the Mods get their information from? All the information is based on self belief and emotions.

Ahmad Zahir was a Pashtun and his Father was a one time Prime Minister a known Pashtun. Where did you get the Pashai from just because Laghman has Pashai. You people really do know how to forge facts and truth into a self proclaim dream.--Shikab 03:05, 27 August 2007 (UTC)Shikab

His father was from Northern Laghman(modern day nuristan). His mother was a Tajik--Anoshirawan 05:56, 27 August 2007 (UTC)

Honest to God you people are the most illiterates I have ever come along with. Does education even exist in the minds of you people? Laghman province is a majority Pashtun province which I can proof through AIMS AND AFGHAN GOVERNMENT SOURCE which you people claim to be following but lie. Secondly just because a person is born in different part of the province or among different group of people it DOESNT I REPEAT IT DOESNT MAKE THAT PERSON THE SAME ETHNIC OR SECT.

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strange, that these are your own words and claiming him as Awghans but bringing no sources and in fact it only describe you pathetic dogs (Awghan,Pigtun,Kussnaanafreoshzai..)...bache mordagaw, you people are the most illiterates I have ever come along with.--84.59.194.56 (talk) 08:26, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

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So if we go by your logic than Rumi is Afghan not Persian? Earth doesn't rotate?

Stop trying to change a person's identity for your own purpose and stop claiming over Afghan culture.--Shikab 05:37, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Afghan culture is synonymous to Pashtun culture. -- Behnam 01:52, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

These fools love to change peoples identity. They claim all evidence shows him being Tajik/Pashia while thre is no evidence. That aside I guess those that are related to him and his son doesn't know his true identity only the mods in this encyclopedia know the truth?IDIOTS! Rishad Zahir's Email and if you can't trust it go ahead email him through his website or come to Toronto, Canada meet his family members.

M.... Jan salam. Hope youre doing well. Thanks for informing me regarding the Wikipedia situation. I will contact them this up coming week. We the Zahir family are proud Pashtuns, and this needs to be clear to every afghan. Again I apreciate you contacting me. Kuda hafez Rishad

Still can't trust go ahead contact him through his website.--ProudAfghan4life (talk) 20:53, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Your kuchi mother..;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.68.216.203 (talk) 22:56, 1 August 2008 (UTC)

About the Ethnicity of Ahmad Zahir

The information about the Ethnicity of the great singer Ahmad Zahir is wrong. He is not Pashai, or tajik he was Afghan. and is the son of the former prime minister Dr. Zahir

so please correct that

Ahmad Zahir was Pashtun. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hon203 (talk • contribs) 18:30, 30 September 2007 (UTC) regards —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.171.235 (talk) 18:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

The general term of all citizen of Afghanistan is Afghan. Of course Zahir was an Afghan but of Tajik descand.--84.59.207.74 (talk) 13:13, 2 August 2008 (UTC)

All of the evidence I have seen indicates that Ahmad Zahir is an Afghan, and in fact a Pashtun Afghan. Anoshirawan claims that his mother was a Tajik, but I have seen no supporting evidence for that. Even if it were true, Zahir would still be an Afghan. So that is what the lead should say. If Anoshirawan can provide a citation to a reliable source for his statement about the mother, then it can be included below the lead in the early years section. As to his father, Abdul Zahir the evidence is again all on the side of his being a Pashtun, so why would anyone say that he was Pashai? Ahmad Zahir's mother may not be pure anything and may in fact be of Pashai and Tajik descent, but that too needs a source. For the nounce, until citation is provided, I suggest that the first sentences in the "Early years" section be changed to read, "Ahmad Zahir was born in Laghman, Afghanistan. His father, Abdul Zahir, the royal court doctor, was also a former prime minister and an influential figure in the Zahir Shah's era." It is not necessary to repeat his birth date, and the Persian calendar would only be relevant if his horoscope were discussed. --Bejnar 16:35, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

• {{editprotected}} Request that the unsourced and duplicative material be removed from the "Early Years" section so that it reads: "Ahmad Zahir was born in Laghman, Afghanistan. His father, Abdul Zahir, the royal court doctor, was also a former prime minister and an influential figure in the Zahir Shah's era." See above. --Bejnar 16:43, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

I personally am not comfortable putting unsourced content into an article. Now I wouldn't mind making a simple protected edit like this, and I wouldn't mind removing incorrect information. However, could you get a source so that I (and anyone else) can verify that these fact are sourced.-Andrew c ^[talk] 02:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

I wasn't asking that anything be added, just shorten what was there by taking out some stuff that was the subject of controversy. --Bejnar 01:09, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Ahmad Zahir was born into a Pashaii Family who were from laghman. The village which they were from was in northern Laghman province(currently in Nuristan province). His mother was a Panjsheri Tajik. Dr. Zahir had numerous interviews in Kabul Radio about the Pashaiis of Laghman. Also, Ahmad Zahir was extremely Pro Persian(dedicated a song for the Iranian Shah) and only had 1 song in Pashto. --Anoshirawan 06:19, 8 October 2007 (UTC)

In order for us to believe that, we need to see strong evidence. A link from some source would do, so we can check to see if you're telling the truth or not. As far as I know Ahmad Zahir is from Pashtun ethnic line, of the Mohammadzais. This is known by almost all Pashtun people. His place of birth has nothing to do with his ethnicity, even though the majority live there are Pashtuns. Also, his father and mother were both Pashtuns. He sang in Persian and in Pashto languages, it does not matter how many songs were in which language. As a neutral person, no need to mention ethnicity if there is no solid proof, leave it out. (Dilbar Jan 11:27, 8 October 2007 (UTC))

There are no Muhammadzais in Laghman. Most Laghmani Pashtuns are Ghilzai not Durrani. He had more english songs than pashto --Anoshirawan 22:52, 8 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)

He sang in Persian languages because all his girlfriends were Persian speakers. His father was from Mohammadzai Pashtuns, it does not matter how many Durranis or Ghilzai live in Laghman, that's something extremely difficult to figure. Most Pashtuns don't even think of Durrani or Ghilzai, they use Afghan as a nationality. (Dilbar Jan 01:30, 9 October 2007 (UTC))

Ahmad Zahir's Pimp was Samad Dardar who brought kandahari girls not Persian speaking girls. His father was Dr Zahir a Laghmani(There are no Muhammadzais in Laghman, and the Ghilzai Pashtuns lived in southern laghman province while Tajiks and pashaii resided in the northern region which is part of Nuristan today. Ahmad Zahir was against the Muhammadzai government, thats why he has numerous songs against zahir and his family(for example: nala ba del shud gereh, rah e nayestan kujast), the lyrics were written by Khalili against the Muhammadzais and was pro Kalakani(naam cho jawed shud, mordanash asan kujast). Pashtuns are tribal, they identify their tribe and sub-tribe before they use Afghan lol and the Ghilzais and Durranis always resented each other. For more information on Ahmad Zahir you can ask his son Rashid who lives in the US and he claims he is not a Pashtun but a Persian speaker or you can ask Dr. Mohd Naim Farhan who was a close friend of Zahir. --Anoshirawan 05:46, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Gul Agha it seems like it that you will never stop with your emotional dulusional dreams of changing facts into dreams. This is why we Afghans laugh at your Qizils. First you try to claim you are Tajik or go to different forums and act as different ethnic group to get your emotions out. I even provided my facts in the Afghan forums that Ahmad Zahir was Pashtun. My grandfather was close ally of Zahir Shah and he knew Ahmad Zahir's father well since he was close friends with him. Ahmad Zahir's mom could hardly speak Dari and you consider him Tajik decendent. You claim so many things and yet no facts have been provided. The only reason you Cultureless people claim him as Persian is because he was a famous Afghan singer who sang in both Pashto and DAri. Also if you claim that Northern Laghman is populated by Pashais and this is your proof he wasn't Pashtun then you aren't Qizil since you live in teh west. After all the west is full of Foreigners such as Americans, British and so on. So why do you claim yourself to be Qizil if you live in the west fool? As always you embarass yourself befarhang benamos bewatan.– — … ° ≈ ≠ ≤ ≥ ± − × ÷ ← → · § shikab: Shikab 03:11, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

This is no Discussion Forum. This is an encyclepedia not a place to bash or curse others. Thank you --Anoshirawan 04:09, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

I have removed the {{editprotected}} tag. Please re-add it when you have decided exactly how the section should be edited, including all necesary sourcing. Tra (Talk) 15:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

What happened this whole time I was gone...man!this is silly Ahmad Zahir is not afghanistani..he is Afghan and his ethnicity has nothing to do with his talent as a singer. All Pashtuns, Tajiks, uzbeks ,Hazaras, and turks are AFGHAN... and to the person that said Afghan culture is assoicated with being pashtun..NO ITS NOT thats what makes Afghanistan such a special place becuase every place has its own special people in afghanistan..Like we say Aaar jai az khud rasm o rawaj dara...so please refer Ahmad Zahir as Afghan... not Afghanistani or pashtun... or Tajik... when you read about a famous person from a country ..people only say what country he or she is from not what ethinic line they come from. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Abdul916 (talk • contribs) 18:53, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

who is this de-illusionized guy Bejnar? Either he is a Pashtun who covered his face or he is a wannabe Pashtun with no knowledge about Afghanistan, culture, hstory and many more. Gte a life boy! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.68.213.103 (talk) 14:41, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

Ahmad Zahir and his family were ethnically pashtuns. Just because he sang in dari does not make someone a tajik. Look at others like Nainawaaz, Ahmad Wali and others who are ethnically pashtuns but speak dari as their main language. This is a very mute point to make and what benefit are you gaining for making him tajik? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nainawaaz (talk • contribs) 03:38, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Origine

where does it says that he was a dirty Fucktoon??? Did he claimed hmself so?? Was his name a zai or khil?? Didn´t he sang in Fuckto??? Wasn´t he a Tajik by culture, language identity?? Didn´t he himself identified himself with Tajik superiour culture?? What has Fucktoons??? Tents, camels, dogs and donkies. Pashtuns even haven´t a music culture. Do you think only Pashtuns were working in high positions?? Beside that the family called themself Laghmani which shows their origine, Tajiks. Only Tajik call themself after the province or city while Pashtuns don´t. Even in India and Pakistan Tajiks have the same mentality. The most educated people were Tajiks who filled the highest position in Afghanistan during the last kings, specially the Qezelbashs. For example my grand-father was the governeur of Maidan and later for a short time also of Wardak.

My family was very close to his family. They were a Tajik family with some lesser contacts to their surrounding families, mostly Non-Pashtuns. Ahmad Zaher self sang excluslivly in Persians. There is no one song that is in Pashto. He himself didn´t want to learn Pashto in school. There is a very nice history about his revolts in young ages against the forced language Fuckto. Stupid Fucktoons allways claimed Tajiks as homosexual nomadic and savage animals like they do with Rumi, Aviccena, Abu Hanifa and thousand other prominent Khorasanian/Tajik heros just because they self has nothing for presenting. This poor nation is just pathetic. Only Pashtun nationalist claim him as Ahmadzai Pashtun from fatherside and Tajik from motherside but it is absolutely wrong. He himself was a Pro-Tajik and a Anti-Pashtun person. The Taliban dishonoured his grave not because he was a singer but because he was a Tajik and we know the Talibans culture Pashtunwali is an arabized culture which reflects islamic behave but in real it was nothing else than Pashtunwali. The Taliban, as Pashtun nationalists and facists also wrote the book Bache Saqqaw-e dawoom. Don´t forget, Ahmad Zahir was threatend by Pashtun nationalists also during the time when he was alive. They were also who killed him because he was awaking again the Tajik identity with his songs from great Poets and epic-writers. Even the royal family was against him.

Ahmad Zahir was absolutely a Tajik. the preceding comments were added on 23 November 2007 by 88.68.202.2

• I see no citation to reliable sources in the above comments by 88.68.202.2. Some of it looks like original research. It seems to me that with an acknowledged Pashtun father, continued discussion of his ethnicity is a bit weird. I would just delete that disputed portion of the article. --Bejnar (talk) 01:16, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Prof Enayatullah Shahrani's Book " Bazmeh Ghazal" says Ahmad Zahir was half Pashaii and Half Tajik. Shahrani was the dean of the Fine arts faculty of Kabul University.--Anoshirawan 02:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Anoshirawan (talk • contribs)

Can you please provide the details of that book? Then we can just cite it and put an end to the dispute. CanadianAnthropologist (talk) 15:43, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

YOU PEOPLE LOVE TO MAKE UP SO MUCH LIES. JUST BECAUSE HE WAS FAMOUS FOR SINGING DARI NOW YOU ARE TRYING TO TAKE HIS IDENTITY AWAY FROM HIM AND PLACE HIM AS SOMEONE WHO HE ISN'T. PASHTUNS ARE SPREAD ALL AROUND AFGHANISTAN. DURANIS CAN BE FOUND IN LAGHMAN AS WELL. HIS CLOSE RELATIVES LIVE IN TORONTO AND SOON WE WILL CONTACT EVERY RELATIVE OF AHMAD ZAHIR AND LET THEM BE KNOWN OF ALL THE LIES BEING POSTED HERE THAT HE IS TAJIK OR PASHAI. STAY TUNED WE WILL HAVE HIS FAMILY CONTACT WIKIPEDIA. UNCIVILIZED PEOPLE WILL ALWAYS ROB OTHERS FROM THIER CULTURE.

Rishad Zahir has been contacted and he has requested for the information to be removed completely or change his ethnicity back to Pashtun. No one has the right to rob his dad from his identity. For further information he can be contacted through his email in his website. —Preceding unsigned comment added by ProudAfghan4life (talk • contribs) 17:58, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

unfortunateley he has no a typical Pashtun face, a long, hairy, dog-like face but a typical Tjaik face which show his ancestor line. Look to your ferooz homosexual kundoozi how he looks like. Tomorrow we will cleansing you bastards from our country. just wait..the day will come, inshallah!! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.213.187 (talk) 13:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

These bastard tajiks and hazara will go so low and even calling known pashtuns as tajiks and they expect you to believe that. AHMAD ZAHIR WAS A PASHTUN EVERYTHING WRITTEN ON HERE ABOUT HIM BEING OTHERWISE IS JUST PROPAGANDA BY THE TAJSHITTY PEOPLE. Also what is a tajik? what is tajik culture? Nobody in history have even called himself a tajik. Tajiks are descendants from pashtuns from bactria. Pashtuns are your forefathers read your history not the history made in iran. 71.139.17.191 (talk) 08:42, 13 November 2009 (UTC)Pashtun786

Questionable dates

Someone wrote this on the article:

The dates on these albums are questionable. For example, his last album "Afghan Music #14" was released three months after his death in August 1979. Yet according to the above dates, album "Afghan Music # 14" is released in 1973! The dates need to be to updated with accurate dates.

CanadianAnthropologist (talk) 22:02, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Professor Sharani...

Where is the text of this book? A source with the full text available to all to verify is better than citing something by name and giving no details. --ManOLantern (talk) 19:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 05:07, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Not POV neutral - lack of sources

especially the chapter Foul play and conspiracy lacks from neutrality. (E.g.: Whoever had murdered Ahmad Zahir murdered a afghan superstar who we will never forget.) It also lacks totally of sources. --213.155.231.26 (talk) 12:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I rewrote the "Death" and "Foul play and conspiracy" sections, which have no cited sources, trying to make them NPOV. If there are still problems there, please annotate them here. --Bejnar (talk) 16:54, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Bad citation

Anoshirawan cites Professor Enayatullah Shahrani (Dean of the Fine Arts Faculty of Kabul University) (1999). Bazmeh Ghazal, for ethnicity and parentage, however this citation is not verifiable. Anoshirawan also uses this citation in the Sarban article for an ethnic statement, where the problems with this citation are more fully discussed at Talk:Sarban#Ethnicity. --Bejnar (talk) 23:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

I've corrected this and provided an English language source that can be verified by all. Here is an excerpt from the piece.

He also reflects an Afghanistan that was far less ethnically polarized than it is today. An ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari, he won fans in all ethnic groups.

"At that time there was not such a question -- we were Afghans," said Shah Muhammad, a Kabul bookseller who regularly sold books, Shakespeare among them, to Mr. Zahir.

--Kitabi420 (talk) 18:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

"Professor" Shahrani is a known advocate for federalism in Afghanistan. Aside from that, this so called source is not only inaccessible but also not available in English. I'd have to say that makes it difficult to prove it's relevance or that it even contains the claims Beh-nam and Anoshirawan attribute to it. --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:36, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems that Beh-nam or Tajik's sock wants there to be no ethnic reference if it isn't a Tajik one. I must say that this is not acceptable. There is no contradiction here as the author of the NY Times article spoke directly to Ahmad Zahir's sister. Further, the source that Beh-nam/Tajik/Anoshirawan insist on using on this and other articles is neither available nor verifiable. It is clear to me that the verifiable, English language source overrides a possibly fabricated source. Please make sure this stays. --Kitabi420 (talk) 17:23, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Sockpuppets of User:Beh-nam...

Advisory. Farsiwan22 (talk · contribs) and AhmadZahirFanNumber1 (talk · contribs) are both Beh-nam (talk · contribs). They have both left the exact same edit summary in reverting my edits. --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:23, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

That is because I copied and pasted AhmadZahirFanNumber1's edit summary. Farsiwan22 (talk) 21:25, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

How convenient. You are exposing yourself. It's interesting how you insisted on keeping Pashai/Tajik but are now saying ethnicity should be kept out all together. This tells me that you aren't quite confident in your fake source that you have also recycled for other articles. --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:27, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

When did I say he was Pashai or Tajik? I removed both statements since two sources are contradicting eachother. Farsiwan22 (talk) 21:28, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

I see that you have become confused as a result of assuming a few hundred identities online. --Kitabi420 (talk) 21:30, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Death

Anoshirawan in his edit of 03:32, 7 February 2008, by his in-bulk restoration of an older version of the article deleted the requests for sources about the controversy surrounding Ahmad Zahir's death. Can anyone find any reliable published sources supporting these statements? --Bejnar (talk) 00:41, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 19:08, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

The article from New York times is not a reliable source and it has mistakes, so you can´t use it as source. Additional to that there are a movie about Ahmad Zahir on work (the trailor is already out) where it shows clearly he is born into a Tajik family (with some lesser Pashtun, Hazara and Pashai friends from Laghman and outside Laghman of the family) and in no kind of sources it is claimed he was a Pashtun, in no kind. He also never claimed himself as a Pashtun, instead he was singing, acting, living in Persian, celebrating it´s own heritage, the Persian culture. He had not even a single song in Pashto. My uncle and he even worked together in Radio Station Afghanistan and he also says Ahmad Zahir was a Tajik of ethnicity (so not even a Pashai). This year, i will visiting Afghanistan than i will bring really good books about his life, career, ethnicity and many more, his own biography written byhimself, you will see!

Ps: the calender is not an afghani calender but a Persian and also all the names of the months. The calender was founded by Omar Khayyam/Omar Chayyam--84.59.202.126 (talk) 17:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Ahmad Zahir was ethnic Pashtun

Here is a link to The New York Times special article about Ahmad Zahir, where it clearly states that he was an ethnic Pashtun. "An ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari, he won fans in all ethnic groups." New York Times got the ethnic information from Zahira Zahir and other family members of Ahmad Zahir that live in USA. Please stop giving him false ethnicity by stating him as Tajik because the fact is he was not a Tajik. Majority of the people in Afghanistan are ashamed to be called Tajiks and they would never call themselves such names. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Roge from What's Happening (talk • contribs) 01:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

We have many relatives in our family who are Pashtuns, but also many who are Tajiks and some Hazaras. But we neither consider us as Pashtun nor as Tajik. We justly call ourself as Afghan-e Farsizaban, no Pashtun, no Hazara or Tajik. Categorizing ourself to any Tajik, Pashtun or other groups, that would be an insult for my family, for our relatives who are Tajik, Pashtun and Hazaras, and for Afghanistan. We do not represent anyone of these groups, but the Afghans as whole. I will change the information about Tajiks and Pashtuns and replace them with Persianspeaking Afghans. That´s fair enough to everyone, including my own.

Ba Ehtram 62.146.68.151 (talk) 15:10, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Ps: Please, stop insulting eachother. By calling names to yourself you hurt only Afghanistan and it´s great people. 62.146.68.151 (talk) 15:13, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The current version is freed from ethnical allegations. Please, be honest and respect that. Otherwise, I suggest for a cancellation of the article. Ba Ehtram 62.146.68.151 (talk) 15:41, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

IP, I know what you mean but if stubborn people come here and claim him as their own and use any source they can find, so why shouldn´t we use the right and real sources to prove his ethnical origine? It is wrong calling someone something he is not. If we know his ethnicity and have sources why shouldn´t we use them? It is not insulting, just an information on the person and a fact. Just take a look on these Pashtuns and Tjaiks here on this diskussion page what they call to eachother, just because they want to claim them as theris and noone brought any reliable sources. I am myself half Pashtun but5 do not support any fake informations about my other half. You will see there will be many IPs in the following days who won´t accept any real sources, only their own ethnocentric POVs--94.219.196.21 (talk) 17:05, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Tajik Culture; Getting on the internet and sucking Afghan/pashtun culture dry

Tajiks are ill willed people, they have no culture but to suck pashtun ancient history dry. Ahmad zahir is Pashai, tajik??? Yeah if someone is pashtun you cultureless people would do anything to try to link him to someones else. Even if he is tajik I will consider him pashtun. Go get a life rather than distorting ancient pashtun history.

Tajik Culture; Getting on the internet and sucking Afghan/pashtun culture dry

Tajiks are ill willed people, they have no culture but to suck pashtun ancient history dry. Ahmad zahir is Pashai, tajik??? Yeah if someone is pashtun you cultureless people would do anything to try to link him to someones else. Even if he is tajik I will consider him pashtun. Go get a life rather than distorting ancient pashtun history. 71.139.17.191 (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2009 (UTC)Pashtun786

94.219.196.21's claims and sources

The BBC source provided by the IP doesn't mention anywhere that Ahmad Zahir was an ethnic Tajik. The IP also added the following 4 sources, of which non of them can be proven.

1. ^ Khelâze Zawân-e Ahmad Zaher; 1979 Kabul, Jawid Ahmadi
2. ^ Zindaginame Ahmad Zahir; 1999 Tehran, Houshang Mahrufi
3. ^ Ransânse Farhange Farsi-e Dari; 1987 Herat, Farhad Shiringol
4. ^ Professor Enayatullah Shahrani (Dean of the Fine Arts Faculty of Kabul University) (1999). Bazmeh Ghazal

There was not even a single source before this and all of a sudden an IP comes and adds 5/6 sources. Only one of them is an online source (in Persian), even that one doesn't mention anything about Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity. (Ketabtoon (talk) 18:37, 6 January 2011 (UTC))

The New York Times article from March 20, 2003 unambiguously states that Ahmad Zahir was "an ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari". The NYT does not attribute this statement to any one person; it simply states it as fact, which usually carries some weight coming from NYT, given their rigorous editorial process. While editing this article to change Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity to Tajik, 94.219.196.21 has attempted to discredit the NYT (an uphill battle at the best of times) and has cited several apparently fictional publications. Can anybody provide any actual reliable sources stating that Ahmad Zahir was not an ethnic Pashtun? If so, please add it to the discussion here first; please don't add it to the article until consensus is reached. Let's avoid further unnecessary edit wars. AtticusX (talk) 20:31, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

The NYT did not claimed he is a Pashtun, who sang mostly in Dari which is also not true. They just quoted a saying of a obviously a Pashtun bgger or Pashtu bookseller. He sang it because he belonged to this group. Many songs, are passivly linked with Tajiks, their culture and identity. That´s, why he always used poems of classical Tajik/Persian poems from Iranians, Tajiks and Tjaiks from Tajikistan. He even has 3 Wakhi song. So what is the proof that he wasn´t a Pamiri? The real Laghmani people know the family as non-Pashtuns. Only Pahtuns claim him as an IP did as a member of the not-existing Toryalai (do not exist in Laghman, but in Pakistan and Kashmir) Pashtun tribe, another User once used Dari-Pashtun parents, the other claimed him beeing a Muhammadzai(do not exist in Laghman). Once, banned User:Nisarland/Khampalak self claimed his mother as Tajik while at the same time in another place he stated his mother did not know Dari/Persian. Don´t you see their logic and their game behind all this kindergarten? So tell me, what was he and is his family belonging to? Those who claim a lot do not even know itself. They just claim it as they do for Rumi, Aviccena, Sanai ...as Afghans(Pashtuns). Just look on facebook and you will understand what I mean. Mark also that all those Users and IPs who claim him beeing a Pashtun are wellknown POV pushers and already banned Users, but still occure here for vandalizings and personal interests. You ignore all sources and even his regional identity as Laghmani which is not common among Pashtuns, only Tajiks or Pashtuspeaking non-Pashtuns use it.--84.59.184.224 (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Ps: The Afghan historian and poet, Wasef Bakhtiar, is writing a new biography about him in permission and coworking with Zahir family. Let´s see what these vandalists here will say when they read A. Zahir was a Tjaik. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.59.184.224 (talk) 20:21, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

"He also reflects an Afghanistan that was far less ethnically polarized than it is today. An ethnic Pashtun who sang mostly in Dari, he won fans in all ethnic groups." The NYT article is not quoting a "Pashtun bookseller" or whatever there; it's in the narrative voice of the New York Times. It is online for anyone to verify. The same cannot be said of your sources, which is why we are skeptical of your entire argument. I don't personally care whether Zahir is this or that ethnicity, but I think we have an obligation to ensure that all the info in this article is verifiable and founded on reliable sources. Frankly, the reason I tend to trust the NYT's statement over your sources is because the NYT is the only source I've been able to verify. I Googled the names of your offline book sources, and got zero results. That's pretty unusual, so forgive me for asking if you might have a possible explanation for that.

By continuing to revert the article from an ethnically neutral version to your Tajik-ethnicity-obsessed version despite the lack of consensus here for it, you appear to be the one engaging in WP:disruptive editing by Wikipedia's standards. You do not seem to have built a sound case, to my eyes. You have made ad hominem attacks, thrown the word "vandalism" around irrelevantly, provided sources whose existence/relevance no one has been able to verify, disparaged the New York Times on the unjustified assumption that they didn't fact-check a major point of their article, and made some dubious arguments above based on original research and dubious-sounding synthesis. Your lack of respect for Wikipedia's collaborative guidelines galls me, but if you choose to believe that everyone who disagrees with your edits does so because they're secretly a "vandalist" or a "POV pusher", so be it.

The only way you might hope to redeem yourself at this point, IMHO, would be to log in with an account so we can start talking to you by a name rather than an IP-hopping number, and start providing some published sources that other editors can actually read and verify.

In case I have not made my own position clear: I don't care about the outcome of this dispute. Zahir can be a Tajik, a Pashtun, or a little green man from Mars for all I care. What I do care about is that the proper process is abided by and civility maintained. Understand? AtticusX (talk) 01:59, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

So, your claim stand over BBC and the writings and sayings of a Professor and Afghanistan National Institute of Music or over those who are related with Ahmad Zahir? Dear friend, we already tried for 3 years ago to find a good description between Tajik and Pashtun senseless ethnicities but we did not came to a conclussion because those already banned Users and thousand of socks came again here and changed it to their own POVs. Noone wanted to ethnicise this article. At the beginning, we did not started with Pashtun or Turyalai or whatever. We used Afghan or a famous Persian singer from Afghanistan. Has that something to do with ethnicities? No, not. But when Pashtunists started to claim his not known origine (which can mostly be assumed by ordinery people beeing a native Persianspeaker, thus Laghmani) as Pashtun, of course, we looked for books who deal with his life. My parent´s have even private photos of Ahmad Zahir. He was a friend of my father and they always described him as a native Persianspeaker (Tajik). If you wish, I will post you some photos of him where my family and Ahmad Z. are sitting together for breakfast. Just give me your email address. And of course, the NYT just REPEAT a saying of a man. Just read the article again. From where have NYT it´s information otherwise? The other poet, professor and writer, Wasef Bakhtiar who write the biographgy of Ahmad Zahir will surely be added too, to these sources, once, he has finished his work. If you are not related with the subject, just keep out (no offense, bro).

Ps: Kitabtoon is also a Pashtun who missuse many sources. If you do not examine the sources you will have wrong informations on every article he has overworked. He even claims false things which are not used in any sources. Just ask User:Tajik who knows him better than anyone--84.59.184.224 (talk) 12:21, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Ps: The NYT article is already used. His ethnicity, according to NYT who quotes the claim of a Pashtun bookseller from northern Afghanistan, Ahmad Zahir was of Pashtun background who sang mostly in Persian language (Dari)[3]. So I don´t understand your problem. The other sources are additions--84.59.184.224 (talk) 12:37, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

1) BBC doesn't say anywhere that Ahmad Zahir was a Tajik, 2) All your other sources are imaginary and cannot be verifiable, 3) For those who are familiar with Afghanistan related issues, they very will know that Wasef Bakhtari is a Tajik ethno-centric writer and even his source for the moment is imaginary and not verifiable.

4) Ahmad Zahir was a Persian speaker, which means Farsi was his first language. So was Mohammed Zahir Shah. It doesn't necessary mean that they were Tajiks. (Ketabtoon (talk) 15:22, 15 January 2011 (UTC))

Stop telling here lies, Ketabtoon. The BBC article is a main proof. He is mentioned among great Tajik personalities and part of Persian-Tajik culture, language, identity and civilisation. Just because you do not want to see reality it does not means the world will allow you and your kinds to spread your Pashtunist lies. That you even insult Wasef Bakhtiar show us who you are. Wasef Bakhtiar is not an ethnocentric writer, he is an historian who do not follow the Pashtun dictation which falsefy the history of Afghanistan and try to oppress with Pashtun language non-Pashtuns. The only Pashtuncentric people are you. Wasef Bakhtiar is a well-known and most respected person among non-Pashtuns and civilised Pashtuns. So was Ahmad Zahir. Ahmad Zahir was a Persianspeaker because it was his native language and he used it to politise the language as a result of the Pashtunisation policy of Afghanistan by Pashtunists and ethnocentric Nazi Daud Khan. So did his father and many of his family. Zahir Shah spoke in the public only in Persian but that does not mean that he couldn´t speak Pashtu. You have forgotten the days after the establishment of the interime government under the Karzai package when Zaher Shah spoke Pashtu. Beside that, Zaher Shah´s family were originally native Urdu-speaker and Pashtu was used as second language. Persian was always the language of administration...so was under Ahmad Shah Abdali, Daud Khan, Abdurrahamn Khan, Amanullah Khan, Dost Muhammad etc. all of them spoke Persian but claimed beeing of Pashtun ancestory. So are they known as non-Pashtuns or did ever only one Hazara or Tajik or Uzbek ever claimed them as theirs? No! But the situation with A. Z. is different. Just because Laghman is dominated today by immigrant Turkic seeds from the Sulaiman Mountains who claim beeing Pashtuns, it does not mean everyone from Laghman is a Pashtun. In fact, unofficially, Laghman´s dominant group are Pashai (46%), followed by Tajiks (32%) and than by Khalaj Turks and Nuristani Kalah tribe. Just visit Laghman by yourself. Excuse me, but I have to say you are not in ligitimation to talk about Ahmad Zahir or saying that your POV is trustworthy than that of Zahir´s biographers and Professors. You belong to the same guys who vandalises hundred of articles, missuse sources for their own POVs, chnage the original meaning to your ethnocentric views etc. You were once part of the bunch who claimed for Valy Hedjasi a Pashtun origine and created the non-existent Hedjazai tribe. That´s your policy on Wikipedia for years, and now you try it with Ahmad Zahir. Accept the fact, that there are educated people who will stand against you and your lies. You are a fascist and a Pashtun nationalist.

Ps: Wasef Bakhtiar is through marriage of his two family members related with the Zahir family and he write the biography with their co-working. What will you say now? --84.59.184.224 (talk) 16:48, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

How do you come up with the claim that the BBC reference does not mention him as Tajik? Before making such claims, go and take a lesson in Persian language (10s grade) and than come back and try again to read it.--84.59.184.224 (talk) 17:00, 15 January 2011 (UTC)

Here's Google Translate's English translation of your Persian BBC reference. It does not appear to mention his ethnicity. AtticusX (talk) 00:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

As I mentioned, the BBC article doesn't mention anything about Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity. He really didn't think of Google translation when he was adding a false source as a reference (at least he was trying to fool those who can't read Persian). This should tell us a lot about the IP's other imaginary sources. (Ketabtoon (talk) 05:43, 16 January 2011 (UTC))

So, to recap:

• An anonymous, IP-hopping editor overwrites various sourced content with arguments that Zahir was a Tajik. The IP's version mentions Tajiks and Tajikistan more than 15 times.
• IP editor cites exclusively unverifiable sources, including offline books whose titles do not appear to exist in any online catalog, and a BBC article written in Persian which he claims as his "main proof", which, when roughly translated, does not appear to say anything about Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity.
• His edits are repeatedly reverted by several editors including myself. The IP editor reacts with hostility in his edit summaries and on this talk page, calling everyone he interacts with a liar, a vandal, a POV-pusher, or "a fascist and a Pashtun nationalist".
• The version repeatedly overwritten by the IP made no mention of Ahmad Zahir's ethnicity. A NYT source that calls Zahir "an ethnic Pashtun", unambiguously contradicting the IP's claims of Tajik ethnicity, is disparaged by the IP on the premise that basically the NYT couldn't possibly know what they were talking about.
• IP editor states that Zahir was "a friend of my father", which if true, would probably make his editing of this article a conflict of interest.
• Appearing successively as 94.219.196.21, 109.43.223.203, 84.59.184.224, and 88.69.17.138, the IP-hopping editor reverts the article to his version 7 or 8 times, despite the lack of consensus or support of any kind in the ongoing discussion above. He continues to fling mud at everyone.
• Today, the article gets full-protected following one of the IP editor's reverts. So now the article is stuck on his version until a higher-up intervenes, or for 5 days. Sigh. AtticusX (talk) 06:52, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

To end the dispute, I will add two other reliable sources which clearly mentions that he is a Pashtun of Mohammadzai tribe.

• "The rise of pop singer Ahmad Zahir, son of Prime Minister Abdul Zahir-himself of a prominent Pushtun family, further contributed..." (Culture and customs of Afghanistan By Hafizullah Emadi)

• "The singer Ahmad Zahir is a good example of the process. He was from an aristocratic family (Mohammadzai), and his father, Dr Zahir, was for a short time Prime Minister." (Can you stop the birds singing? By John Baily) [1]

Let's hope we can move on. (Ketabtoon (talk) 07:16, 16 January 2011 (UTC))

Thanks for the additional sources confirming Pashtun ethnicity.

Looking through previous comments on this talk page, I've just realized something. Either there are a lot of hostile, offensive editors claiming to have close family connections to Zahir, or the disruptive IP editor we've been discussing has been active here under the guise of various IPs and accounts for over three years. AtticusX (talk) 08:50, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

@Articusx

maybe you did not understood the BBC source. I would appreciate it if you would reread it and see Ahmad Zahir in the article´s context. Now, rational thinking is asked. The article self do not call him as Tajik, yes, he has mentioned as Afghan, a citizen of Afghanistan, but in the context of Tajik-Persian culture, identity, civilisation and language.

@Ketabtoon

You can play your ethnocentric POV games here as long as you want. But you won´t have a chance to be succesful. And concerned to the offline books. If you want them, than go and buy them. They are all written in Persian language. I am sure the next Persian book store can deliver one example to you. You act as you can have every book online. Are you a child or an adult? Behave like an adult with mind. And if you read the article, his Pashtun origine is mentioned, at the first two paragraphes, before everything. I do not need any games to play. I am not a pure pathetic Zai or Khel who tries to find an identity. I have even sources from first hand, including an entire collection of Ahmad Zahir´s songs with small informations about his person. I even offer the admin or athicus? private photos of Zahir with my family so I asked for his email. Your sources you provided is not realiable as any other sources that is written by a Pashtun is not realiable. The problem is that you Pashtuns write with emotions, instead staying objective. That´s your fault. That´s why you call Rumi, Aviccena, Ansari, Jami and hundred thousand other people as Afghan and try to link them to the Pashtuns. Your second source do not even mention his ethnicity, but call him as a Persian singer. So, your game does not work. I am myself half-Pashtun but I do not accept that. If we remember what many IPs and other vandalists and banned Users claimed ('Ahmad Zahir is a Turyalai Pashtun, Ahmad Zahir is Ududi Pashtun, Ahmad Zahir is a Dari-Pashtu ...etc.) and now you come here with your Muhammadzai claim. Ok, maybe his father used that, as many others did, the father of Babrak Karmal, Dr. Abdul Satar Sirat, Nizamuddin Ahmadi and many more. Why did they so? Because of the ethnocentric Pashtun family of the ethnocentric Pashtun king (see also Pashtunisation). Till 30 years ago, all these personalities were known as Pashtuns. After the collapes of the dark age monarchy of the Muhammadzais they came out with their true ethnicities. You also forget that his father was a medical doctor. Even today, 95% of doctors in Afghanistan are Tajiks and foreigners, particularely the Qizilbash people. So how could his father have been a Pashtun? Even to day, Dr. Abdul Sirat is known as an Uzbek by ordinery people, just because he is from Samangan (actually the same thing with Ahmad Zahir), while he is reality an ethnic Tajik and not Uzbek. I remember you too, that it was you who claimed (and people can still see your POVs and ethnocentric policy here on Wikipedia´s dispages of various articles) Ghurids, Ghaznavids, Safarids, Samanids etc. as Afghans (Pashtuns) and fought verbal against anything that is not related to Pashtuns. You even did not want them to be mention with Iran or even that Tajiks get mentioned because Tajiks live in Tajikistan and in Afghanistan is everyone an Afghan. That´s what you are!!!! The same propagandas. The smae BS. The same sources for 2 years ago, as you know use, was used for Ustad Khalil Khallilli to prove his Tajik ethnicity, but IT WAS YOU WHO DID NOT ACCEPTED THE SOURCE!!!! DO YOU REMEMBER? IT WAS THE SAME SOURCE FROM THE SAME TYPE OF A BOOK AS YOU NOW TRY TO USE HERE FOR AHMAD ZAHIR. IT IS YOU WHO INSULT EVERY SCHOLAR, WRITER AND EVERYBODY WHO DOES NOT SHARE YOU ETHNO POV AND YOUR FAKE PUTA KHAZANA VIEW ON HISTORY. If this goes further, I would appreciate to write Rashid Zahir, Ahmad Zahir´s son, Wasef Bakhtar, and some other I know. They self can come and explain their biography here with us. Would it be ok?--88.69.17.138 (talk) 10:33, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Ps: Do you know that Wasef Bakhtiar self was once known as a Muhammadzai? You claim is worthless, Ketabtoon.--88.69.17.138 (talk) 10:39, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Just a small example what kind of policy these full-blood Pashtuns play with non-Pashtuns and always played Urban Terrorism

Kulturgeographischer Wandel in Nordost-Afghanistan seit dem 19. Jahrhundert

Tajiks claimed beeing Pashtuns because of Pashtunisation policy

Ethnic processes and intergroup relations in contemporary Afghanistan: papers presented at the eleventh annual meeting of the Middle East Studies Association at New York City, November 10, 1977

A bitter harvest: US foreign policy and Afghanistan Von Tom Lansford

Those circumstances explain why non-Pashtun Afghan inhabitants claim to be afghân within national borders only if they hold a position as a public servant. Other reasons for adopting a virtual Pashtun-like identity are a marked nationalistic attitude of politicians and an instrument for ethnic camouflage by marginalized groups. The latter case again discloses the value-loaded instrument of ethnicity and hence the supremacy of Pashtun identity in Afghan socio-political life (Centlivres and Centlivres- Demont 1988: 35). The inter-ethnic cleavage is a function of unequal allocation of political power.

Khans and Warlords: Political Alignment, Leadership and the State in Pashtun Society

I know that now Ketabtoon will mastrubate and will be happy like hell.--88.69.17.138 (talk) 10:57, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

Request for edit

Requesting revert from 88.69.17.138's last edit to the neutral version immediately preceding it, a version which I am defining as neutral because it makes no claims as to the subject's ethnicity. See discussions in the above section. IP-hopping editor appears to have provided fictitious (or at least unverifiable) sources and failed to build any support for his edits alleging Tajik ethnicity. The only verifiable sources I have seen appear to confirm Pashtun ethnicity, anyway. I think we have had enough of analyzing the IP's disruptions in the section above. AtticusX (talk) 09:30, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

But you delelte all other sources. What´s with them? That he had at least one Russian song, the various poets he was under influence etc. Your version, is not only half-correct, it also do not mention poets that are not from modern Afghanistan. We can smell an ethnocentric policy that won´t be accepted!--88.69.17.138 (talk) 10:42, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

IP editor, I'm sorry you're still having difficulty getting the point.

• None of your sources on Zahir proved verifiable. They didn't exist, couldn't be checked by a third party, or (most damningly) turned out not to say what you claimed.
• What would emailing a photo of Zahir with your family prove? An alleged family tie is usually a disqualification by Wikipedia's conflict-of-interest standards.
• Your latest list of links to books about Pashtunization in the section above is equally pointless: none of them mention Zahir.
• The version the consensus appears to support restoring cannot be called ethnocentric by any stretch. It plays it safe by not mentioning ethnicity at all, which is our concession to the possibility that the verifiable sources stating Zahir was "an ethnic Pashtun" are wrong. Wikipedia doesn't need to take sides. Most readers probably won't care if he was Pashtun, Tajik, or half-whatever.
• Your hysterics, uncivil behavior and use of fictional and irrelevant sources is fundamentally opposed to the collaborative spirit necessary to move this discussion and the article forward. We have tried to engage with you in good faith long after it was already clear that your edits were disruptive. AtticusX (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I am also supporting the above mentioned version ([2]). Honestly, I have no idea what ethnicity Ahmad Zahir belonged to, and I honestly do not care. He might have been a Pashtun, but that's by no means a certainty. He could have been a Tajik as well. Since we do not have sufficient sources, we should leave out rubbish claims. Most of all, he is remembered as the greatest musician of Afghanistan, and it is a fact that almost all of his songs are in Persian (personally, I do not know any song by Ahmad Zahir in any other language but Persian). Tajik (talk) 16:47, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

This rough consensus in favor of the neutral version is probably as unanimous as it's going to get. The IP editor is the only dissenting voice, and he's not providing any coherent arguments, nor is he listening. In my estimation, this is no longer a dispute; it's just one guy trolling in protest of the consensus. How does Wikipedia deal with disruptive editors when they are IP hoppers? AtticusX (talk) 01:23, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree with AtticusX. However, we should not assume bad faith. I am sure the IP user will also agree with us. Just cool down a bit ... all sides of the conflict. This is really not a big deal. Tajik (talk) 03:21, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

I have provided 3 credible sources which state that he was an ethnic Pashtun. There should be no doubt in it, unless we can prove that he might have been a non-Pashtun. So far, we don't have a single neutral source stating that he was a Tajik. Why shouldn't we add that he was an ethnic Pashtun from Mohammadzai tribe when the information can be referenced with reliable sources? To solve the IP's issues, the article can be semi-protected and the IP can be banned, if he is neither listening nor providing coherent arguments. We are only encouraging the IPs to continue with their disruptive editing across Wikipedia without any consequences. (Ketabtoon (talk) 03:58, 17 January 2011 (UTC))

I have let this IP hopper's casually racist comments get under my skin more than he deserved. But I have to say I'm done assuming good faith on the IP's behalf, based on the history of his talk page edits. Have you read his hyper-obscene rant from 2007 above, under #Origine? (Same misspelling of the word "origin", same claim of close family connection to Zahir, same vitriol.) Tracking a few of his multiple histories, he has been abusing editors for years now, and not just on this talk page. Anyway, you're probably right, Tajik, I need to cool down a bit, get some distance. AtticusX (talk) 04:30, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Ketabtoon: semi-protection is a sound idea. AtticusX (talk) 04:57, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

Ketabtoon, I think it's the safest not to mention anything about his ethnicity. This source is in fact reliable, but it is not necessarily accurate. Tajik (talk) 11:50, 17 January 2011 (UTC)