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Official name vs DBA/web name

Just to note the RD uses the current title on its website and letterhead; in legal language, i.e. in the legislation and in BCGNIS, it's "Regional District of Alberni-Clayoquot". For now "most common usage" applies, unless it turns out that the website is anomalous - ? - and the formal usage does prevail.Skookum1 (talk) 01:39, 17 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 10:52, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Alberni–Clayoquot Regional District → Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District — ALL official sources, including the regional districts themselves, their enabling legislation, BCGNIS, CGNDB, StatsCan (where RD names are used as those of Census Areas - though without the ""Regional District" name appended) as well as most common usage use a hyphen, no spaces, for double-barrelled RD names; none use a dash nor spaces between dashes and the names. These should never have been changed - the rationale I am told was to "harmonize with Wikipedia's appearance standards" but that's not reason to override official sources/names. They're also cumbersome to use/link with the dash. These need to be changed as a precursor to a CfD moving the categories back to the hyphen format; they also should not have been changed Relisted. Jafeluv (talk) 09:10, 28 December 2010 (UTC) Skookum1 (talk) 05:05, 19 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose. The use of an en-dash versus a hyphen is, generally speaking, a matter of typography and style, not a matter of spelling. WP:ENDASH indicates that the en-dashes are to substitute for hyphens when the mark is being used "to stand for and between independent elements." Conjunctive RD names clearly meet this condition. The Tom (talk) 21:53, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • 'Rebuttal You're quite wrong, they are NOT independent elements in their context as RD names. They are LEGAL NAMES. Wikipedia has no right to impose its typographical "improvements" on existing LEGAL names, which are NOT conjunctive but used as solitary terms, as with SatsCan's appropriation of them for use as Census areas (e.g. Alberni-Clayoquot is the CA, while the regional district is the Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District. Now if the dyad were "Alberni Valley and Clayoquot Sound regions" and you wantd to dash-ify that, then "Alberni Valley &emdash Clayquot Sound" might be called for (unless it's not in the source cited, e.g. a qute from somewhere). An existing convention walraedy exists between fedeeral electoral districts which use the emash because the soruce (Elections Canada) does, and provincial electoral districts, which use the hyphen - again because the source (Elections BC) does, as well as because of long-standing convention. The only place weher dash-usages of RD names can be found is in Wikipedia, so your claim that this is "only" a typographical issue can be reduced to "only a typographical issue in Wikipedia", not in any citable source or common usage. By NEW USAGES, which it should not be doing. Wikipedia "typographical standards" should be governed by real-world sources/ not by the tastes/agendas of Wikipedia designers....and should never upend legal names or longstanding conventions by overriding them with arbitrarily-arrived at Wikipedia "policies". Add on to that "utility/ease of use" and the rationale for emdashes or endashes, arrived at by editors wanting to impose standards not aware of what they are affecting (legal names) is, well, poppycock.Skookum1 (talk) 22:30, 27 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I agree with Skookum1's assessment; each article's title refers to a single entity whose designation was formally established by others, not two independent elements whose names we're combining. Please see Talk:Hanna-Barbera#Hyphen vs En Dash for my comments regarding a similar situation. —David Levy 20:10, 28 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose – Dashes are not used in most websites because people can't or can't be bothered typing them in. The difference between a hyphen and a dash is a stylistic one and has nothing to do with WP:COMMONNAME. We can change hyphens to dashes in direct quotes so they can equally be changed in article titles. We don't recognise the exact capitalisation of trademarks; we use whatever is normally correct in English, and this is a similar situation. This is not a double-barrel surname, it is a combination of two surnames created for the place. That's my assumption; if I'm wrong, please let me know. McLerristarr | Mclay1 02:41, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • WP:COMMONNAME is a policy and the manual of style is a guideline. If the common name uses a hyphen then we should use a hyphen instead of making up a spelling that we like better. The articles already link to sources that use only hyphens. I'll add The Alaska Highway, a book that spells "Fraser-Fort" with a hyphen in page 106, and uses dashes in a sentence in the next page, so it's not like they don't bother with dashes. Please provide sources that spell those names with a dash or with spaces around the hyphen or with two hyphens. --Enric Naval (talk) 09:31, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wait, let me reword that: see google books search, 40 books use only a hyphen, 10 only use a space to separate, 3 use a dash, and 2 use a hyphen with spaces. To refine, we would look only at the highest quality sources (but I don't have time now). --Enric Naval (talk) 09:51, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who makes letter-reversal typos (I fixed yours) - fast typer like me?Skookum1 (talk) 18:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Highest quality sources (picked from the first few results, all use one hyphen except for some old census):

--Enric Naval (talk) 12:52, 29 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

    • I still think it's irrelevant whether sources use a hyphen or a dash. It certainly shouldn't have spaces around the hyphen or dash, but the difference between a hyphen and dash is just a stylistic one and doesn't change the spelling, meaning or correctness of the name. Just because most websites have different style rules to Wikipedia doesn't mean that we have to follow their style rules because their style rules are used in sources. McLerristarr | Mclay1 00:59, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Comment Those aren't just websites, they're official records, and mirror what's in the legal language of the legislation. Wanting to supplant in-use hyphens for Wikipedia dashes and claiming that it's not a difference in spelling is what's not relevant, and is only opinion. i.e. vs official sources and regular, normal usages. Expecting bots and redirects to pick up the slack because wikipedia designers think "their way is better" is just not encyclopedic. The Canadian Encyclopedia doesn't do it, why should Wikipedia?Skookum1 (talk) 01:03, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • Wikipedia isn't the Canadian Encyclopedia. We don't do things just because others do. If you can find a source that says writing the name of this place would be incorrect with a dash, then I'll agree with you. Until then, I still think that most typed writing will never use dashes because hyphens are a lot easier. Even on Wikipedia, a lot of editors will use a spaced hyphen instead of a dash because it's easier, but technically it's still a dash, it just hasn't been written properly. McLerristarr | Mclay1 01:20, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • See David Levy's post above about how dashes are not used in a hyphenated proper name, be it Featherstone-Haugh or Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District. You're talking about a Wikipedia style issue vs cited sources and also established Wikipedia guidelines about not treating double-barreled proper names as if they were "dashable".Skookum1 (talk) 01:33, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • As I said previously, Alberni–Clayoquot is not a surname, it is a combination of two surnames created for the place. If you can give me one source that says otherwise, I will support your argument. McLerristarr | Mclay1 09:46, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • You are very, very wong. The Alberni Valley and also the Alberni Canal (now Alberni Inlet for pilotage reasons though the older usage prevails in speech still) is the root of the first part of the name, Clayoquot Sound the root of the second part of the name. But Alberni-Clayoquot, whether as a CA or as an RD, is not the same as either, nor simply a combination of the two names; it is a single applelation which includes, for example, Barclay Sound/Ucluelet,/Bamfield/Sarita, none of which are either in the Alberni Valley nor in Clayoquot Sound (which can mean either the sound or the region, here tending to mean the region). Squamish-Lillooet includes Whistler, Brittania Beach, Pemberton, the Bridge River Valley, the Gates Valley and not just Squamish and Lillooet. Kitimat-Stikine's name refers only to that RD's extremities (Kitimat at the south, the Stikine Country to the north; and NB Stikine Region which is different. These dual names in the forms used are used ONLY as names for the regional districts, and by consequence for census areas; one exception may be Okanagan-Similkameen, which as that link will show, is a former provincial electoral district. You sometimes see Thompson-Nicola used in a general sense, but the more common uaage is Thompson-Okanagan, which is the official name is one of BC's Tourism regions, though that name (singular) existed long before and includes areas not in the Thompson or Okanagan (specifically the Shuswap and the Nicola). These are single names for places, and are not simple linkages "creatred for the place", whatever you mean by that. In their creation, also, it must be underscored that the Queens Printer, Hansard, the Ministry of Municipal Affairs - all with style guides, and in the case of Hansard and Queens Printer, very strict ones - are legally-chartered names, and the hyphen is included as part of the legally chartered name. They are not simply two placenames combined (or "surnames" as you call them, though that term is for persons, not places), they are single names for defined regions whcih include other named places. It's not like saying "Vancouver-Burnaby" or Surrey-Delta-White Rock (er, that's a riding name, or was) or Abbotsford-Aldergrove or Chilliwack-Rosedale, which are combinations of two so-called "surnames"; they are NAMES, period.Skookum1 (talk) 10:18, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I just re-read your last post, McLay....you want a SOURCE? If you're so hot on sources, why do you discount the BCGNIS, CGNDB, StatsCan and other official sources as having lazy typographers?? You want a source to disprove your artificial and unfounded thesis?? Sources have been already given that these are stand-alone names and their meanings should not be confused with "Alberni and Clayoquot", "Squamish and Lillooet", "Thompson and Nicola", etc. BTW the family surnames in that set are Alberni, Thompson and Nicola (well, Nicola's a personal name, not a family one, but the reference isn't to Chief Nicola but rather the Nicola Country/Nicola River, which are named after him. The meaning of "Thompson-Nicola" is "the basin of the Thompson River, plus the basin of the Nicola River, plus parts of the Fraser Canyon to the north and south of the norteastern extremity of the Squamish-Lilloet Regional District, plus parts of the Cariboo and all of the Shuswap".Skookum1 (talk) 10:23, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • I'm sorry if I'm misunderstanding your point, but to me it seems you are supporting my opinion that Alberni–Clayoquot is not a surname but rather a combination of two names (whether surnames or not is irrelevant). However, please note that I am not Canadian and have no idea where any of these places are nor what your abbreviations stand for. But in reply, yes, I do want a source to disprove my artificial and not wholly unfounded thesis. A hyphen is used to separate two elements of a compound word. A dash is used in other instances. That's Wikipedia practice. In fact, other publications would consider some of our uses of dashes as just stylised hyphens. Even in phrases such as "Canadian–American border" where we would use an endash, others would consider that just a hyphen. In response to all this about "legal use" of hyphens, I'll compare it to a similar discussion involving The Beatles. One editor was saying that "The Beatles" is a registered trademark so should always be spelt with a capital "T" in "The". Another editor noted that it was unlikely that the copyright holders of "The Beatles" would object to the use of "the Beatles", which is used quite a bit, probably more often mid-sentence. Likewise, there is almost no difference between an endash used in this way to a hyphen. PS it's not "McLay" – "M" is my first initial and "Clay" are the first four letters of my surname :P. McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:50, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see no reason at all to spend my valuable and much-abused time looking for a cite to disprove an unwarranted and artifical thesis by somebody not even familiar with these places, or their names, or with what regional districts are. There are simply no sources using anything but hyphens for these names, and "proving" that they are stand-alone names is a non sequitur, since they are taht by legal definition and by common usage. And as explained above, re the Thompson-Nicola RD, the name was created to apply to more areas than the two whose names comprise its NAME. Singular - N-A-M-E. I see no reason at all why distant Wikipedians should decide that the BC Governmen,t Hansard, BCGNIS, CGNDB, the RDs themselves, etc are in error or are "lazy" for using hyphens in ALL their publications.Skookum1 (talk) 22:32, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

this is so much the case that I'm sure it's in styleguides for paper/thesis writing for SFU, UBC, UNBC, UFV and the colleges; using a dash in one of those papers would very likely result in a mark-down.Skookum1 (talk) 22:37, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support move. Mclay1 and The Tom's arguments are not persuasive. This is not mere stylistic convention, these are legal names, and our articles reflect the contents of the named districts. Survey of the sources seems to show exclusive use of the hyphen character (and no hand-waving about how other websites are too lazy to format a dash, or how nobly Wikipedia goes about setting it's own standards) - so we should use the spelling/formatting the sources give us. That seems clearly to be a simple hyphen. Franamax (talk) 23:41, 30 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose We don't do legal names or even official names. This is purely a matter of style. Our style on Wikipedia is, where the name is a conjunction of two names as in Alberni–Clayoquot to use –. When it is something like Henley-on-Thames to use -. It's not about the Government of British Columbia (or anyone else) being in error. They have their style, and we have ours. Incidentally, it seems a sad reflection on education in British Columbia that anyone should be marked up or down for using a dash, hyphen or blank space. Talk about anally retentive! Skinsmoke (talk) 08:48, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • It may be anally retentive, but it is in fact the case; but more to the point, your example of Henley-on-Thames is exactly the same as Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District and also Alberni-Clayoquot (which is the name of the census agglomeration which uses the RD's boundaries). They are unique names and have no other meaning. They are not "linked names" as a matter of style, they are just names and not fidgetable by "style". The official, legal names reflect this fact of them being unique names, exactly the same as Henley-on-Thames or Stratford-on-Avon, and that is the point. Alberni-Clayoquot is NOT "a conjunction of two names", it is ONE name. Claiming that Wikipedia's style trumps not just most common usage but the ONLY usage is just "not on" and is, very much, "anal retentive" to suggest otherwise.....Skookum1 (talk) 09:17, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
      • Other examples of unique double-names with standard hyphens: Guinea-Bissau and Baden-Württemberg.Skookum1 (talk) 23:52, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
        • Two very famous examples of binary names using hyphens and not dashes: Austria-Hungary and Poland-Lithuania.Skookum1 (talk) 08:55, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
          • Oh, isn't that cute: Poland-Lithuania has been "corrected" to use dashes, also in the two linked items there; no publication of any kind ever does except Wikipedia. This "style" over substance/traditional being broad-brushed across Wikipedia is inventing a new paradigm, and promoting it; that's just not right, no more than it is here. The hard-core Wikipedian argument that "we know better" and "others are lazy" is just downright arrogant, as well as incorrect and more than a bit OR.Skookum1 (talk) 08:59, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
            • The immense majority of sources uses a hyphen, and there are two university press books using hyphen in their titles. I requested a move in Talk:Poland–Lithuania. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:31, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
              • Thanks, good idea, I'll support it. NB the same should be made on the two sub-articles there. There was a dash in the Hungarian name in the infobox on Austria-Hungary, I changed it to the proper usage. I think there's gonna have to be an auxiliary guideline on WP:HYPHEN/WP:DASH about not overriding traditional/normal/legal usages in favour of "Wikipedia's original style".Skookum1 (talk) 18:56, 14 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • We do common names, per WP:COMMONNAME. I was arguing that the name is commonly spelled by a hyphen in the immense majority of sources. I would like to see examples of a dash being commonly used in those names. --Enric Naval (talk) 12:06, 12 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment The main discussion of this topic is now on the RM on the talkpage where Poland-Lithuania redirects to, where teh same ad nauseam arguments about "style over sources" are made, always invoking WP:DASH. But here's what WP:ENDASH actually says:
"An en dash is not used for a hyphenated name (Lennard-Jones potential, named after John Lennard-Jones) or an element that lacks lexical independence (the prefix Sino- in Sino-Japanese trade)."
These are hyphenated names, not "disconnected linkdages of independent elements". I have also posted on Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style about the growing abuse of WP:DASH and the ways its actual contents are being either misrepresented or ignored in order to continue the apparent intent of eradicating the hyphen from Wikipedia on the grounds of "typography".Skookum1 (talk) 21:14, 17 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

I don't get it - you relisted Poland-Lithuania, even though it was reaching conensus, in favour of the hyphen, and this one you've closed even though it was pending resolution of that one. Do you know anything about regional districts and their histories? I object to this peremptory interference in what was a multi-page discussion, where the results of other RMs will affect this one, and this was the one that launched the other debate. Since the other one was reaching consensus after lengthy debate why did you relist it?? Because the effect on there is to delay a decision, perhaps with the hope others will come along to kibosh that consensus, which would have directly impact the result of this one in favour of the normal spelling of regional district names, rather than allowing the continued use of something that was wrongtly changed by speedy based on a FALSE and MISREPRESENTATIVE invocation of MOSDASH. I'm supposed to WP:AGF but I smell an agenda here, and not neutrality.Skookum1 (talk) 17:19, 22 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 2

Alberni–Clayoquot Regional District → Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District — This requested move is a follow-up to the discussion above, which was closed on 22 January with an outcome of "no consensus". On 24 January, following discussion at multiple talk pages, the Manual of Style was edited (diff) in order to clarify that en dashes should not replace hyphens in hyphenated place names (e.g., Guinea-Bissau). In the context of the names of these regional districts, a name such as "Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District", Alberni and Clayoquot are not "independent elements" which should be separated by an en dash; rather, Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District is a unique hyphenated place name. (I realize that this discussion comes less than a week after the previous one ended, but I believe that the clarification of WP:MOS, coupled with the fact that the previous one ended as "no consensus", justifies a follow-up discussion). -- Black Falcon (talk) 20:23, 28 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The hyphenated form is dominant in external sources (official government websites, as well as news articles and books), and a minority of sources prefer a spaced name (e.g. "Squamish Lillooet"), but very few use an en dash.

Regional district Official website BCGNIS Statcan.ca
Alberni-Clayoquot Regional District hyphen hyphen hyphen
Columbia-Shuswap Regional District space hyphen hyphen
Dewdney-Alouette Regional District N/A hyphen N/A
Regional District of Fraser-Fort George hyphen hyphen hyphen
Regional District of Okanagan-Similkameen hyphen hyphen hyphen
Skeena-Queen Charlotte Regional District hyphen hyphen hyphen
Squamish-Lillooet Regional District hyphen hyphen hyphen
Top 3 results for RD names (searched without a hyphen or dash) found using Google Books
Search for "Alberni Clayoquot Regional District"
Search for "Columbia Shuswap Regional District"
Search for "Dewdney Alouette Regional District"
Search for "Regional District of Fraser Fort George"
Search for "Regional District of Okanagan Similkameen"
Search for "Skeena Queen Charlotte Regional District"
Search for "Squamish Lillooet Regional District"
Top 3 results for RD names (searched without a hyphen or dash) found using Google News
Search for "Alberni Clayoquot Regional District"
Search for "Columbia Shuswap Regional District"
Search for "Dewdney Alouette Regional District"
Search for "Regional District of Fraser Fort George"
Search for "Regional District of Okanagan Similkameen"
Search for "Skeena Queen Charlotte Regional District"
Search for "Squamish Lillooet Regional District"
  • Strong Support as per Black Falcon's explanation, and my own points in the previous RM, and also all the official sources including the legislation creating these geographic names. Other unique combinations also found in BC are also hyphenated in all sources, as alluded to above (e.g. Ministry of Tourism regions). A name is a name is a name is a name and "hyphenated name" was already in MOS before it was recently emended to include "hyphenated geographic names". CANMOS should always be followed for Canadian items, also, and while it may not have anything specific about this category of names, there already exists, as noted, a Wiki-convention of respecting the sources and using dashes for federal electoral districts and hyphens for provincial ones (based in the sources as well as in common use, though in common use federal ones are typically only hyphenated).Skookum1 (talk) 07:25, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support again. It's nice to see MOS edited to acknowledge, you know, reality, but reality alone should have been enough in the first place. This is what these RD's are called, pure and simple. Franamax (talk) 18:31, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Supporting again, like in previous request. WP:ENDASH needs a bit more work so people will stop saying that it overrides WP:TITLE. --Enric Naval (talk) 23:38, 29 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
    • Under no circumstance should dashes be changed to hyphens in this title. Tony (talk) 09:07, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • You have any actual reason for not doing it so? Reasons that could counter the sources and arguments exposed here? --Enric Naval (talk) 10:07, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, apart from WP's style guidelines, doesn't the Canadian Electoral Commission use en dashes for these items? Tony (talk) 10:36, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Couldn't you answer that question yourself, using the internet? A federal electoral district is not the same thing as a provincial regional district. Franamax (talk) 11:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Though I know it would never be added, a line in MOS or somewhere saying "editors who know nothing about a subject should refrain from discussion of major changes or retitling until they educate themselves about the subject". It's true that Elections Canada uses dashes for riding-names, and that is reflected in Wiki titles for those articles; as Franamax has told you, BC's regional districts have nothing to do with Elections Canada and are part of provincial-level jurisdictions, namely the BC Municipal Act. Go try a search at BCGNIS using "% regional district" and you'll get the full list - all using hyphens, as does the enabling legislation for these para-municipal regional bodies and any other reference, official or otherwise, you'll find anywhere (except on Wikipedia, where dashes are fashionable but not in connection with reality, more often than not). And again, please refrain from joining in name discussions if you don't know f-all about what you're talking about.Skookum1 (talk) 19:19, 30 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]
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