Jump to content

Talk:Idiot

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 192.158.61.140 (talk) at 18:43, 31 January 2011. The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Please add {{WikiProject banner shell}} to this page and add the quality rating to that template instead of this project banner. See WP:PIQA for details.
WikiProject iconDisability Start‑class
WikiProject iconIdiot is within the scope of WikiProject Disability. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.DisabilityWikipedia:WikiProject DisabilityTemplate:WikiProject DisabilityDisability articles
StartThis article has been rated as Start-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.

American Idiot

Shouldn't this be mentioned on the idiot page?

For a March 2005 deletion debate over this page see Wikipedia:Votes for deletion/Idiot

Not to be confused with 'Imbecile' - which defines far lower intelligence and is harder to spell. I think we can expand this quite a bit. The history of the idiot would be quite interesting. - Ta bu shi da yu 00:33, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I agree - it shouldn't be moved to wiktionary (or at least it should only be copied). Thue | talk 11:09, 18 Jan 2005 (UTC)

I learnt in ancient greek in school that idiot in ancient greek just meant "private man", not more, not less. thats all. all the negative connotations came up later. this is an important fact. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.110.167.224 (talk) 20:32, 9 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re: Greek origin of Idiot

Extract from article in question: The word is derived from the Greek word ιδιωτης, idiôtês, "a private citizen, individual", from ιδιος, idios, "private". In ancient Athens, an idiot was a person who declined to take part in public life, such as democratic city government. Since such activities were honorable and could directly affect all citizens, idiot was a term of derision.

This is not my paragraph. The original editor evidently took the material from/or wrote the material in Athenian democracy. Since the root of the word is Greek (see your dictionary insert), I simply restored this material after your unexplained deletion. I also copy edited your material to make your edit blend with the previous article. Wiki protocol suggests that if you wish to delete a block of material for cause, move it to the discussion page and explain why. This allows the original editor to respond, and to defend if necessary. Peace. WBardwin 15:37, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Added "Idiot Lights" to Other Uses Grumpyoldgeek 05:48, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply] 

 Isn't idiot, "without political knowledge" in Greek?
This source says: idiot — c.1300, "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning," from O.Fr. idiote "uneducated or ignorant person," from L. idiota "ordinary person, layman," in L.L. "uneducated or ignorant person," from Gk. idiotes "layman, person lacking professional skill," lit. "private person," used patronizingly for "ignorant person," from idios "one's own". -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:58, 20 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]
What is "O.Fr."?? And what is "c.1300"?? The cited article doesn´t seem to be in chronological order. So the "person so ..." might not have been the original meaning.
It means that the word "idiot", meaning "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning" dates from circa (approximately) the year 1300. It is in turn derived from the Old French word "idiote" (meaning "uneducated or ignorant person"), which in turn was derived from the Latin word "idiota", which ultimately came from the Greek "idiotes". Those are all fairly standard dictionary abbreviations. Wardog (talk) 12:57, 2 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Also see the entry on Ryan Sloan. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 162.84.93.186 (talk) 19:50, 12 February 2010 (UTC)[reply]

history

the sentence " ... defining idiots as people whose IQ were below 20 ... " must be "below 24" not "20" anon. user. 20.April.2006 

            NO! I was wrong. :) it is strange but different countries accepts different grades. for US. the true one "20". sorry :)


New Jersey

Removed 'idiot' from constitution. should be removed from article? tildetildetildetilde

About time. Perhaps about 99% of New Jerseyans were probably barred from voting by that language, but nobody noticed it. ;-) 204.52.215.107 05:14, 9 November 2007 (UTC) ("Idiots" were among the people not allowed to vote under the old language.)[reply]

"Other uses" section

The "Other uses" section is a joke. It is not necessary to 'give examples' of a term that appears on every other web page of the Internet, and, for obvious reason, that section is nothing but bait for flame wars and vandalism. "Examples" of "idiot", indeed. Can anyone think of a better bait for vandalism in wikipedia than an editable "examples of idiots" section ??

Personally I think the whole section should be removed.

I removed the obvious flames, along with advertisements for rock groups. Yes, I know it won't last. At least I'll know I tried.

"Quotes" section

Someone needs to move that to wikiquote. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DocRocks1 (talk • contribs) 02:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Idiot lights

"Idiot light" is still a term and has not "fallen into disuse." Words like "phylactery" and "shamefastness" have. But idiot light is still a word used among motor enthusiasts and by those who remember the term's popularity. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 207.43.79.22 (talk) 19:52, 15 May 2007 (UTC).[reply]

Bob Smith quote

I'm working on the Robert Smith disambiguation page, and found out that in this article there's a quote by a Bob Smith, but it doesn't say which Bob Smith or where he said that. So I took out the link and added a "citation needed". But there's a comment above that suggests moving the entire Quote Section to Wikiquote. Any opinion? --PeterCantropus 17:33, 28 July 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Christ

Nietzsche characterized Christ as an idiot. In his The Antichrist, Nietzsche claimed that Christ was extremely detached from the world that was around him. This resulted in a naïve idiocy. In Part 3, Chapter 3, Dostoevsky wrote that Prince Myshkin, the idiot, "…seemed to have forgotten all the world" or "He seemed oblivious of the whole universe." This characterization may have influenced Nietzsche's use of the word to describe Christ.Lestrade 16:34, 23 August 2007 (UTC)Lestrade[reply]

Even if Nietzsche did "claim that Jesus was as an idiot", I find there to be something wrong with a person choosing to present his own words as evidence, when providing quotes would be more effective. I fail to see how claiming anyone to be "detatched from the world" is the same as claiming him to be "an idiot". That the latter is [i]implied[/i] or [i]caused[/i] by the former, does not mean the latter is ever [i]claimed[/i] (as the article says). To claim that Dostoevsky's characterization may have influenced Nietzsche's use of the word is as true as claiming that it may have influenced Nietzsche's use of scissors to trim the hair under his nose. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.72.122 (talk) 16:06, August 28, 2007 (UTC)
Distracted by the superior intelligence of Lestrade's argumentation, I didn't at first notice the now available quotation (numbered 15). I only possessed the H. L. Mencken translation, so I accept the quotation as sufficient evidence. I admit it, I'm an idiot, and I don't plan to apologize for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.195.72.122 (talk) 14:58, August 29, 2007 (UTC)

Apple lover - iDiot

the term iDiot is widely used now to describe emo Apple lover, using iPods, iMacs and iPhones. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Thebiggestmac (talk • contribs) 07:43, 10 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

First I have ever heard that term used. Do you have a citation? - Fearless Son 22:42, 2 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Eejit

Is this just a bastardisation of idiot? I had heard it before, and thought it a seperate word. Does anyone who how it came about?82.75.218.105 (talk) 15:23, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You don't mention where you have heard this one, but Wictionary defines this an Irish variant of idiot; no source is given. http://Dict.org, http://dictionary.com, and http://m-w.com have nothing. / edg ☺ ☭ 16:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)[reply]


Yes that's what it means ok. Eejit is just a local mispronunciation of the word 'idiot' over here. It's very common and it's been going around for as long as I can remember. It's not really as strong as calling someone an idiot, much milder, it's more like calling him a fool. One of the dictionaries suggests that it has found its way to Scotland too. - Peadar, Dublin —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.255.46.251 (talk) 18:16, 11 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Protection

Why is this article locked? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.199.25.9 (talk) 23:03, 10 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oaf

I removed the redirect for OAF. And oaf was an actual type of person in the old days, like a "fool" was a person that amused royalty. It was an actual job title that became a word 4.143.227.109 (talk) 21:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)eric[reply]

I've moved this recently added section from the top to the bottom.
I still see the redirect at Oaf, but perhaps that is due to sever-update lag. I'm not arguing against the removal, but would point out this refuting source. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 00:49, 3 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Permitted from voting?

Do they acctualy enforce laws in the US to prevent "idiots" from voting? That isn't exactly democracy. So i doub't it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.160.45.109 (talk) 12:35, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, there's no laws against idiots voting. As a matter of fact, idiots are actually encouraged to run for public office. How else do you explain George W. Bush? 96.236.180.7 (talk) 00:24, 28 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Add pictures.

Please? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.217.40.128 (talk) 23:02, 8 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Bush or Palin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Riggy1990 (talk • contribs) 20:57, 19 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Homer Simpson —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pigmonkey69 (talk • contribs) 01:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

History error?

" "Idiot" was originally created to refer to "layman, person lacking professional skill", "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning". " Originally it stems from Greek, which is the first part of the sentence. So how does the psychological definition fit in that sentence, the second part??

From the Greek letters

For what it's worth, here's the word meaning from the meaning of each Greek letter.

i/d/i/o/t/e/s= arises with/ arises/ arises/ heir (conclusion) with/ decision/ come (together)/ dies.

So the person is not instructable, or more simply, untrainable.

You can look at the meanings of Greek here, if you care to look at the concept. [1]

That is, unless you're also not trainable.... :) --No938 (talk) 02:35, 24 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Imbecile is spelled incorrectly

In the 'Disability' section. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deathbal101 (talk • contribs) 14:21, 4 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

20 or 30?

On the savant syndrome page is says that "idiot" formerly referred to a person with an IQ of under 20, here it says 30. 216.185.233.102 (talk) 16:45, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of a Wikipedia talk page is to provide space for editors to discuss changes to its associated article or project page (see WP:TPG). If you want to ask a question, please see the Wikipedia:Questions page for guidance.
I did look at both articles, though. I don't think that there is a conflict.
The Savant syndrome article says, "During the late-19th and early-20th century, "Idiot" was a scientifically acceptable term to refer to a person whose IQ was less than 20.", citing a supporting source not available in full online except on payment of a fee.
This article says, "IQ, or intelligence quotient, is determined by dividing a person's mental age, as determined by standardized tests, by chronological age. The term 'idiot' is sometimes used to refer to people having an IQ below 30.", citing a couple of sources which are partially previewable online.
this book says <30
this book says <25
this book says <25
this book says <25
this book says 20-25 and a mental age <= 5
this book says <20
this book says an idiot never learns to talk
Pick a definition you like ... or don't. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 02:42, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Main definition or modern usage addition

I would like to suggest the following addition to this page under the main definition (versus history or a modern usage stub) as this usage increasingly becomes more mainstream:

Walter C. Parker's article "Teaching Against Idiocy," in Phi Delta Kappan (January 2005, v86 n5 p344) has slowly led to a resurrection of the word's etymological origins amongst social studies and civics educators across the United States as a way to frame and discuss problems with modern American republican democracy:

Idiocy shares with idiom and idiosyncratic the root idios, which means private, separate, self-centered -- selfish. "Idiotic" was in the Greek context a term of reproach. When a person's behavior became idiotic -- concerned myopically with private things and unmindful of common things -- then the person was believed to be like a rudderless ship, without consequence save for the danger it posed to others. This meaning of idiocy achieves its force when contrasted with polit[macron]es (citizen) or public. Here we have a powerful opposition: the private individual versus the public citizen.

Could we please add a section that refers to the dual meaning of the term (the emerging one versus the denotative one) in the main definition section?

Breadncircuses (talk) 16:10, 19 October 2009 (UTC)Breadncircuses[reply]

See also addition

Could we also add a reference to Bread and circuses in the "See Also" section?

Breadncircuses (talk) 16:11, 19 October 2009 (UTC)Breadncircuses[reply]



IDIOT

Noun 1. an utterly foolish or senseless person. 2. Psychology. a person of the lowest order in a former classification of mental retardation, having a mental age of less than three years old and an intelligence quotient under 25.

Origin:

1250–1300; ME < L idiōta < Gk iditēs private person, layman, person lacking skill or expertise, equiv. to idiō- (lengthened var. of idio- idio-, perh. by analogy with stratiōtēs professional soldier, deriv. of stratiá army) + -tēs agent n. suffix

Synonyms: 1. fool, half-wit; imbecile; dolt, dunce, numskull, Sepp Blatter. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.10.63.208 (talk) 20:32, 7 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was page moved.  Skomorokh  11:01, 27 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Idiot (person) → Idiot — "Idiot" was a disambiguation, but all entries were variations of The Idiot plus a few See alsos, so I changed the disambiguation to The Idiot. Now Idiot is simply a redirect to Idiot (person), and obviously this is the primary understanding of the word. — The Man in Question (in question) 02:20, 19 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Grammar

Idiot([id-ee-uht])" Defenition :(1)An opinionated word meaning fool, half-wit; imbecile; dolt, dunce, numskull an utterly foolish or senseless person.(2)an utterly foolish or senseless person

Origin:1250–1300; Gk iditēs private person, layman, person lacking skill or expertise, equiv. to idiō [1]

grammar

Definition : 1. word meaning an utterly foolish or senseless person. 2. fool, half-wit; imbecile; dolt, dunce, numskull (idiot[id-ee-uht])–noun opinionated

Origin: 1250–1300; ME < L idiōta < Gk iditēs private person, layman, person lacking skill or expertise, equiv. to idiō- (lengthened var. of idio- idio-, perh. by analogy with stratiōtēs professional soldier, deriv. of stratiá army) + -tēs agent n. suffix idiot c.1300, "person so mentally deficient as to be incapable of ordinary reasoning," from O.Fr. idiote "uneducated or ignorant person," from L. idiota "ordinary person, layman," in L.L. "uneducated or ignorant person," from Gk. idiotes "layman, person lacking professional skill," lit. "private person," used patronizingly for "ignorant person," from idios "one's own" (see idiom). Main Entry: id·i·ot Pronunciation: 'i-dE-&t Function: noun clasification;opinion

[2]

introductory paragraph is poor and needs a complete rewrite

The intro suffers from a number of problems. A few of them:

"...or someone who acts in a self-defeating or significantly counterproductive way." I really don't think this is part of the definition of "idiot", it sounds more like someone's take on what might be the major consequence or sign of being an idiot. This does not belong here.

"The synonymous terms moron, imbecile, and cretin have all gained specialized meanings in modern times." I have to assume this refers to the Goddard or similar classification of different low IQ levels by various terms like "moron," "imbecile," and "idiot." If so, this sentence incorrectly implies "idiot" is not one of these terms, though it is. The phrase "have all gained" implies these specialized meanings have currency, however they are outdated.

"An idiot is said to be idiotic, and to suffer from idiocy." Is it really valuable to demonstrate all the different parts of speech stemming from the word "idiot"?

"More humorous synonyms..." Well, some of these may be intended to be humorous, however for many this is not clear.

"A dunce is an idiot who is specifically incapable of learning." Um, no, I don't think this specialized meaning for this word is supportable. It certainly isn't reflected in the dictionaries in which I've looked. I think someone is making a leap from one particular historical application of the word "dunce" as a way of punishing students by making them wear a cap with this label.

"An idiot differs from a fool (who is unwise)..." While I think a case can be made that "fool" implies poor judgment vs low intelligence, the idea that the term "idiot" has to specifically mean low intelligence would seem to be the author trying to make these terms more clear cut than they are. It is not unusual to hear term "idiot" used with the same meaning as "fool" and the dictionary supports this usage ("a person who fails to exhibit normal or usual sense, discrimination, or judgment" from the Merriam Webster Unabridged Dictionary). --Ericjs (talk) 14:54, 17 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Arkansas

Arkansas removed the idiot language in 2008. Here's the link to the Sec. of State's page - proposed Amendment #1. http://www.votenaturally.org/2008_ballot_08_const_amendments.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.76.230.159 (talk) 05:35, 22 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You may find it helpful while reading or editing articles to look at a bibliography of Intelligence Citations, posted for the use of all Wikipedians who have occasion to edit articles on human intelligence and related issues. I happen to have circulating access to a huge academic research library at a university with an active research program in those issues (and to another library that is one of the ten largest public library systems in the United States) and have been researching these issues since 1989. You are welcome to use these citations for your own research. You can help other Wikipedians by suggesting new sources through comments on that page. -- WeijiBaikeBianji (talk) 02:30, 9 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

iQ

This article states: "IQ, or intelligence quotient, is determined by dividing a person's mental age, as determined by standardized tests, by their actual age." While this was true originally, IQ is now relative to a normalized scale.

  1. ^ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/opinion
  2. ^ http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/idiot
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Idiot&oldid=411210884"