Talk:Avatar

Other Vaishnava avatars

Where can Avatars of Shesha like Lakshama, Balarama, Patanjali be added? They come under the Vaishnava fold. Also, Lakshmi incarnates as Sita and Radha - is a Vaishnava idea, rather than a Shakta one. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 16:23, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

How about creating a List of avatars in Hinduism ? This article can then discuss the significant avatars (and their significance) in text in one single section, instead of having lengthy lists. Abecedare (talk) 16:35, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Suggested addition of Section "The concept of avatar in popular culture"

Hello. Thank you for the great job you are doing on this page.

May I suggest to include a section entitled "The concept of avatar in popular culture" in the article

• Draft:

Prior to the release of the Avatar film by James Cameron in 2009, a US-based Hindu statesman Rajan Zed expressed concern with the use of the term 'Avatar', which he called "one of the central themes of Hinduism", as the film's title and asked J.Cameron for a disclaimer. [1], [2] His concern was supported by Nevada Clergy Association, [3] Rabbi Jonathan B.Freirich, a Jewish leader in Nevada and California [4] and Satnarayan Maharaj, a Hindu leader in Trinidad and Tobago. [5] However, some other Hindu followers in US considered the film as elucidating on the actual meaning of 'Avatar' rather than sacrilegious. [6] Hindustan Times wrote that “Avatar is a downright misnomer” for the film, but concluded that its message is consistent with the Bhagavad Gita, a sacred book of Hinduism. [7]

I am sure we can also mention the Avatar: The Last Airbender animation movie here and its concept as based on the original Hindu term, but I am not familiar with that film at all. Cinosaur (talk) 04:46, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The para is more concerned with Avatar_(2009_film) and is better discussed there than here, IMO. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 13:04, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

To Redtigerxyz: I agree that the topic has to be discussed there too -- and am on it. But, firstly, Avatar the Movie does not limit the usage of the term 'avatar' in popular culture, and the section will have to cover other usages too, including the future ones as they appear. And secondly, since the term 'Avatar' has gained prominence in modern popular culture in ways other than its original meaning, and since this fact sometimes creates concerns among Hindu believers, like the ones mentioned above, it is relevant for the article here and deserves to be mentioned. Or am I wrong? Cinosaur (talk) 18:58, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

The word has entered common parlance, and the reader is directed to such use through the hat note on the top of the page. However any detailed or list-y discussion of such use would be misplaced in this article, which deals with the concept of avatar in Hinduism. You'll be hard-pressed to find any reliable source on the topic of this article that devotes any/much space on the concept of avatar in popular culture. At best we can add a sentence explaining that the term has been adopted for use in the fields on computing, gaming, comics and movies. Abecedare (talk) 22:02, 2 January 2010 (UTC)

To Abecedare: Thanks for the comment. I agree that "Avatar in popular culture" is a topic not studied well yet, and that us gathering data on it will be more like an original research unfit for a wiki article. Fair enough. That said, it appears to me that reported facts of some Hindu followers' public concerns over the use of 'Avatar' as a movie title does deserve a place here more than anywhere else. I might have formulated the suggestion inaptly‚ but its gist still appears to me relevant for the article here.

As far as popular culture, I second your suggestion for including such an explanatory sentence. Cinosaur (talk) 00:52, 3 January 2010 (UTC)

While I agree with the concerns stated above about the draft paragraph, I'm inclined to think a section like this could be a good addition to the article, if framed properly. The concept of incarnation embodied by "Avatar" has been subsumed in many areas of modern culture. See [here] for a New York Times essay on the subject from 2008. This is a reasonable extension of the article, in my opinion. --Nemonoman (talk) 00:07, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

Controversy about Avatar as the movie title

I agree with Abecedare's opinion that "Avatar in popular culture" is too vague a topic and is best not touched upon in the article. However, I think we ought to include facts on the recent concerns of some Hindu leaders over Avatar as the J.Cameron's movie title. I disagree with Redtigerxyz that this issue's exclusive domain is Avatar_(2009_film), because the singular focus of their concerns is obviously much more on Hindu religious feelings about Avatar-the-concept than on the Avatar-the-movie's aesthetics. I propose that we put the following paragraph under a separate "Controversy about the film Avatar" section:

Prior to the release of the Avatar film by James Cameron in 2009, a US-based Hindu statesman Rajan Zed expressed concern with the use of the term 'Avatar', which he called "one of the central themes of Hinduism", as the film's title and asked J.Cameron for a disclaimer. [8], [9] His concern was supported by Nevada Clergy Association, [10] Rabbi Jonathan B.Freirich, a Jewish leader in Nevada and California [11] and Satnarayan Maharaj, a Hindu leader in Trinidad and Tobago. [12] However, some other Hindu followers in US considered the film as elucidating on the actual meaning of 'Avatar' rather than sacrilegious. [13] Hindustan Times wrote that “Avatar is a downright misnomer” for the film, but concluded that its message is consistent with the Bhagavad Gita. [14]

Opinions? Cinosaur (talk) 10:24, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I understand your point, but I would still argue that this is WP:UNDUE to the article topic. In fact, it's an extreme WP:RECENTISM, of interest purely because the film launch was less than a month ago. In another six months, nobody will care one fig about this. If our aim is to build an encyclopedic, stable article on the concept of Avatar in Hinduism, we should avoid such tangents.

Also, fwiiw, Rajan Zed is not a "US-based Hindu statesman", he is just a vain person who is trying to pass himself off as notable on the net. We had him personally spamming Wikipedia over his "historic first Hindu prayers in the State Senates of California, Arizona, Utah, New Mexico, Colorado, and Washington besides Arizona House of Representatives". This is one man's quest for personal fame and has nothing to do with either the Avatar concept nor with Hinduism more generally. --dab (𒁳) 11:05, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I maintain my position, that the draft (in preceding section) is more fit for Avatar_(2009_film) and is an WP:UNDUE here. Also, do we need to have popular culture section? If yes, where does Avatar in popular culture end? The whole Avatar (disambiguation) is full of popular culture links. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 12:34, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

absolutely. This is much like Odin or Beowulf vs. Odin (disambiguation), Beowulf (disambiguation). See List of artistic depictions of Beowulf for an "in pop culture" article that survived, an Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Balder in popular culture for a bunch that didn't. If we are to create an article on "Avatars in popular culture" we should bear in mind that deletion discussion. --dab (𒁳) 15:12, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks everybody for comments. Even though a case could be made that a bit of recentism is relevant here, I will go by your guys ethics here and will just sit back admiring your job. Cinosaur (talk) 07:58, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

IMO, your research should not go in waste and can be incorporated into Avatar_(2009_film). Please go ahead and do so. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 17:16, 5 January 2010 (UTC)

I agree. Also, I do not object to good "popular culture" sections. Experience just shows that it is almost impossible to maintain good popular culture sections on Wikipedia, because they deteriorate into {{fictioncruft}} lists very quickly. --dab (𒁳) 09:45, 8 January 2010 (UTC)

Similar to the usage of "Avatar - a small picture used to represent oneself on Forums etc" - it seems to me that it is impossible to prevent words from meaning multiples of things and so we have the disambiguation page which directs people to the other uses of the word. It would be wrong to start filling this article with popular usages not relevant to this article merely because they use the same word.

I would suggest reordering the first line so that the film is last (or remove it completely) as the disambiguation page already has a link to the film or perhaps moving that line to the suggested section. It does not need to have anything other than links to the articles about popular usage - and as in this case the film is clearly accepted as having a message consistent with the Bhagavad Gita as quoted by Cinosaur above.

Chaosdruid (talk) 08:24, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

the current hatnote just reflects that at present most search queries for "Avatar" will intend the movie. This will change back to normal in a few weeks or months, and we can also change the hatnote back to normal ({{otheruses}}) after some time. I suggest it is reasonable to leave the current hatnote in place for another couple of weeks and change it back in March or so. --dab (𒁳) 11:10, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The hatnote is suitable at this stage. But due to the popularity of the film and it's recent success in the box office, traffic may continue at high levels for quite some time. Therefore, instead of using the hatnote, why don't we direct searches for Avatar to the disambiguation page. Compss 19:48, 1 February 2010 (GMT +10.00)

That is recentism in the extreme. Further, since the movie was named for the religious concept, I see no credible challenge to the primary-topic-hood of the present page. --Cybercobra (talk) 08:53, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

you mean "topic primacy". Or possibly "primary-topicity"? :o) --dab (𒁳) 11:16, 1 February 2010 (UTC)

March has come and gone, the movie is mostly out of the news, I suggest we can go back to standard disambiguation ({{otheruses}}). --dab (𒁳) 13:52, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Second dab. This avatar page (currently about 6k hits) is slowly returning to its usual (see year-old stats) 3-4k hits. --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:11, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section.

I have requested a series of moves.

• Avatar → Avatar (Hinduism)
• Avatar (disambiguation) → Avatar

Discuss here

• Closed Oldag07 (talk) 20:50, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Far from "closed", your "closed" note draws my attention to a "vote" carried out hidden away on some disambiguation page talkpage. I don't know on what grounds you claim the expertise to judge the primary focus of the semantic range of the term "Avatar", but my suspicion is that this is still about the recent movie.

Are you even aware of the prior discussion regarding the disambiguation note in the section right above this one? Why did you not comment on it prior to launching your "request"? --dab (𒁳) 12:10, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Notice of the requested move was posted here at the outset, 10 days ago. 69.3.72.249 (talk) 14:20, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Lets try to keep the discussion in one place Oldag07 (talk) 01:42, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Interesting point Sunrise Hunter (talk) 05:23, 17 October 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Tonyang Avatar

The Tonyang avatar listed as an avatar of Ganesha seems highly suspicious. Does the cited source mention it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.81.244.101 (talk) 01:14, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2

Avatar (Hinduism) → Avatar — Per the new guidelines at WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, "An exception [to following the standard criteria of determining a primary topic] may be appropriate when recentism and educational value are taken into account, especially if one of these topics is a vital article. In such a case, consensus may determine that the article should be treated as the primary topic regardless of whether it is the article most sought by users." The guidelines' talk page uses Nirvana vs. Nirvana (band) as an example. If we are wanting topics of educational value to be the primary topics, then this particular topic should be the primary one. It was the primary topic before but was dislodged after this discussion. This new request to move should be considered with the new guidelines in place. Erik (talk | contribs) 01:17, 16 February 2011 (UTC)

• Support. Srnec (talk) 03:01, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
• Comment this is an incorrectly formatted multimove request. 64.229.101.183 (talk) 03:06, 16 February 2011 (UTC)
• Oppose the most common non-RECENTISM usage is that of the computer avatar. That usage has been around for many years, and has clear higher usage than that of the Hindu concept, per the last discussion point out in the nomination. Educational value of computer avatars is not taken into account by the nomination, only that of the films and TV show, per the Nirvana example. Infact, it might be better to just redirect to the computer avatar article. 64.229.101.183 (talk) 03:10, 16 February 2011 (UTC)