Jump to content

Talk:Hijra (South Asia)

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This is an old revision of this page, as edited by 76.10.167.113 (talk) at 00:20, 20 February 2011 (→‎Banana Picture). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.


Banana Picture

I guess the picure of the person with the banana...is that for sensationalism? I think most people get the idea, if they are dressing or changing their mannerism like those of women. You dont need a picture of the banana.

Isnt there another picture that can be used? Can the man who posted it get another picture of his friend?

The word "hijra" as a foreign language term

Hijda

I added the word "hijda" as one alternative, as it is used in [1] and [2]. AxelBoldt 23:16, 8 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The retroflex r of Brahmic languages is sometimes transliterated as d. So HIjra and hijda are homophonetic to Brahmic language speakers, if not homophonemic (or, more simply, though they sound different to a westerner, they're the same sound to most north Indians, as the r is pronounced with the tongue rolled back. So these are the same word, just transliterated differently.) --Anniepoo (talk) 03:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation?

IPA information about pronunciation of "Hijra" would be useful here. AxelBoldt 05:53, 9 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bangla

"In Bangla "hijra" is called হিজরা, hijra, hijla, hijre, Hizra, Hizre." No it isn't In Bangla hijra is called popi. PiCo (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks PiCo, it's always helpful to have reliable information from someone who's lived in the country. Alastair Haines (talk) 02:34, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I can't claim to be a reliable source, actually. I was standing on the roof of my house in Dhaka (they have flat roofs) in 1980 or 81 with my bearer (yes, we had bearers, very colonial), and a very effeminate young man came to the front gate, and the bearer said, rather contemptuously, "we have a popi visiting us". In those days I understood Bangla, though I've forgetten it now. I can also tell you that were two male brothels in Dhakla at the time - not that I visited them, but asked. BTW: "The word kothi (or koti) is common across India, similar to the Kathoey of Thailand," according to the article. The similarity is, I think, entirely accidental - the Thai word kathoey is a loan-word from Khmer ktoi, meaning "different", and used with that meaning in normal speech. Khmer belongs to the Mon-Khmer language family, and North Indian languages to the Indo-European family (and South Indian to Dravidian). I strongly doubt that Indians would borrow a word from Mon-Khmer, or vice-versa. PiCo. 115.128.83.64 (talk) 10:53, 19 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I can't speak to this case specifically, but khmer borrows very heavily from Sanskrit, despite the fact that it's clearly in another family (think Urdu borrowing liberally from Arabic). It's entirely possible that Kothi and Kathoey share the same root.--96.49.202.207 (talk) 07:05, 16 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

The term 'chakka', as a term of abuse, is pretty general, it's closer to the english 'queer' than to 'hijra'. Since this is unsourced I'm reverting it. --Anniepoo (talk) 01:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

3rd GENDER rather than SEX

Hijra is best considered a third GENDER type, not a third SEX type. Sex is biological and anatomical - i.e. Male or Female - and not subject to cultural interpretation.

Gender is a cultural construct - i.e. man, woman, Hijra. It is my understand that the Hijra are anatomically-born males who are culturally a third gender type.

When I studied this subject in undergrad anthropology I recall a fourth gender type present in India, that of a culturally-male female, which I believe is called something like 'Sādhin"

Hijras and prostitution

Hjras, Sex and Religion

My two pennorth - according my understanding, the basis of the hjra status is ascetism in the service of the goddess Bukhara Mata. I suggest that they are related to the galli of Ancient Rome (q,v). Their activity as prostitutes is because they need to eat, since they no longer have a spiritual function in this secular age. They may or may not retain their penises. They wouldn't use them for sex (they probably wouldn't work very well) but as 'feminine' people they would be receivers, as in other cultures, quite possibly intercrurally.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Uhm, is what you say actual knowledge, or mere speculation on your part? Because it sure sounds like the latter. [AR]
I cant bring to mind the original study (age telling on me I guess) but there is an account by Serena Nanda in Herdt's Third Sex, Third Gender
Male ascetism in Hindu religion is seen as the opposite to female sexuality. However those who can't or don't want to engage in procreation can become renouncers. Bukhara Mata and Cybele are related to earlier mother goddesses. I don't have personal experience of their sexual activity, but it is a matter of practicality. Plus as women prostitutes, they would be receivers. Also anal intercourse may be taboo.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

However - another question. What is a temple prostitute? My understanding is that a prostitute provides sex for financial (not spiritual) return. User:Chevin 14:30, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, a good dictionary might help you there.[AR]
Well I did actually look it up in Wiktionary.Chevin 17:43, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, Wikipedia has an article on it, too. So-called temple prostitution or religious prostitution is an age-old custom, spread through large parts of the world, and certianly not a simple subject. AlexR 14:48, 5 September 2005 (UTC)[reply]

It still sounds like a term conjured up by a sex phobic anthropologistChevin

Reference to Kama Sutra

The section on history says "The ancient Kama Sutra mentions the performance of oral sex on male parishioners at Hindu temples by hijras." Citation is needed here, as I did not find this in the Kama sutra when I looked it up. -- Sudarshanhs 16:54, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I think they are referring to this passage, though temples are not mentined. AxelBoldt 20:33, 14 May 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I have read many translations of Kamasutra. Nothing is mentioned of Hijda Prostitution in temples. The only remote reference is of such prostitution in Bath Houses [Ankush] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 125.18.3.130 (talk • contribs)
The above anon user deleted several sections. I restored and referenced them, but left out references to temple prostitution (until a reference can be found). ntennis 06:31, 13 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

It is calumny to state that oral sex was performed on male parishioners at Hindu temples by hijras. There is no reference of sex being performed in Hindu temples, (except for the followers of Vamachar school of thought). The only instance of oral sex being performed on males is in bath houses where effeminate males/eunuchs used to do so while giving a massage. Read Kamasutra and any other text which you wish. You will find my assetions correct.

Prevalence of prostitution

Is it known to what extent hijras works as prostitutes?

2009-08-07 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

I agree, there is no citation to support the claim that "many" hijra are "Male Prostitutes" or "Male Homosexuals". Does not the fact that hijra are castrated mean that using the word "Male" so many times is inaccurate? HeyFK (talk) 22:50, 29 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You have made two misunderstandings here. First, It is not known to what extent hijras are actually castrated. Secondly, gender is determined by self-identification and not what genitals the person has. What I wonder is: is it known to what extent hijras make their living as prostitutes?

2010-05-14 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.247.167.70 (talk) 09:58, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Can you provide diffs for the contested edits please, otherwise it is difficult to see what the problem is. Similarly, if you feel that information is wrong, we need to be sure that what is written is accurate and verifiable; so can you provide the sources that will substantiate what you are arguing for/against. A link is the easiest way, where possible; but where you are saying something is (or is not) said in a text, can you provide a quote that details what you are saying, alongside the reference with page number. Otherwise, we are dealing with opinion, and it is not possible to have the text reflect opinion, it needs reliable sources.Mish (talk) 13:10, 14 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I should correct myself. Different passages make different statements about the prevalence of genital modification among hijras. So I personally don’t know how common it is. The idea of gender being self-identified was adopted by me to solve the problem of transsexualism. Anyway, this is a distraction. I have to repeat my question: is it known to what extent hijras make their living as prostitutes?

2010-05-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.114.146.16 (talk) 09:04, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I am aware of, there is some discussion about true hijra and pseudo-hijra further down, and if I understood this right 'true hijra' is a historic religious vocation, while pseudo-hijra are seen (by true hijra) as those who do not have their genitalia removed, can be married to women and have a family, engage in homosexual prostitution for profit, sometimes grooming children in a similar way to how beggars operate in India. These pseudo-hijra act as women, but are not necessarily self-identified as women, while true hijra act as women, live as women, but self-identify as neither man nor woman (i.e. as hijra). Then there are those who would be equivalent to western transsexuals, who have some form of genital surgery or castration, live as women and identify as women - my understanding is that this is less common in India. So, from earlier discussion, it seems important to differentiate between these types of hijra, rather than saying hijra are one thing rather than another. Finding accurate figures to determine the proportion of which exist in Indian society? I'd love to see them, but I don't see how that could happen. I use the term true hijra and pseudo-hijra here because I cannot think of a better one - true hijra use the term fake themselves, I use pseudo not in a derogatory way, but to signify something other than that which is true.Mish (talk) 09:59, 15 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Hijra religion

I am hoping that stories about hijra religious tradition are relatively distinct from all other recent talk, and therefore removed from any controversy.

Right now, the article has are four narratives of interest to hijras - Bahuchara Mata, Ardhanari, the hijras waiting story in Ramayan, and Aravan. All these are stories from Hindu religious tradition.

Any of these stories could be fleshed out, but more interesting would be any stories of Muslim hijra tradition or otherwise something non-Hindu. Anyone have any leads? Blue Rasberry 04:12, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Just want to say thanks for the accurate, neutral and concise descriptions of relevant Hindu traditions. I seem to recall one or two typos, you might want to check over that. I'll do the copyedit at some stage if you don't have time. Alastair Haines (talk) 05:06, 12 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I've been thinking. We all feel the current definition is not ideal. I've mentioned before that I think hijra spirituality needs a more prominent focus. After some more reflection, I think we might be able to source a suitable definition of the hijra in this way. Whatever else hijra are as people and do in their lifestyle, their own explanation for their roots is self-indentification with a "spiritual movement". They leave their tribe to become separate from other people, devoted instead to Bahuchara Mata and guru-led hijra communities. The picture seems more complicated in Pakistan, where the word hijra appears to have started. There appears to be some degree of synchretism with Pakistani hijra in retaining Allah worship.
We've got a lot of sources for this already, but I'll try to find more. I think I've been hearing four kinds of voices coming out of sources:
  1. idealist hijra talking about asexual devotion to Bahuchara Mata
  2. realistic hijra talking about a homosexual lifestyle
  3. Western LGBT activists talking about a third gender
  4. doctors talking about men's health issues
Of those four sources, the doctors are most remote from self-identification. I believe it is perfectly encyclopedic for us to focus first on idealistic self-identification. I think I would also recommend placing LGBT language ahead of medical language, for the same reasons of self-identification.
Medical textbooks can and do baldly state that the hijra are men. That's all well and good but when scientific sources are dealing with people, they don't do it in biographical style. Wiki is a people's encyclopedia, not a science textbook. I think Rasberry is absolutely correct that with groups of people, elements of biographies of living people apply. While "men who wear women's clothing" can be established by "neutral" reliable sources, it's just an non-ideal approach here, and "physiological males" is just as insensitive a way to speak about "men" in general as it is to speak about the hijra here.
Anyway, that's my current thinking, and the defense I'd offer if we changed to a spiritual definition and that met protest. What do Rasberry and Mish think? And anybody else? Alastair Haines (talk) 00:40, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
That sounds OK, although need to see how it fleshes out. Although I would prefer 'spiritual' to 'idealistic' to describe 'true' hijra, and 'secular' to 'realistic' to describe 'fake' hijra. Although there may be other terms like 'aspirational' and 'practical' that may work better. Western LGBT discussion needs to look at projecting third gender and trans onto hijra. The 'true' hijra do seem to have an element of neither male-nor-female (rather than as a third gender or transgender) and this needs to be reflected. Does identifying as not male or female make true hijra a gender in its own right? Mish (talk) 09:14, 20 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The practice sounds okay because it avoids issues that ought not be made prominent.
The third gender thing is both a point of Western activism and a traditional line of thought. Germ theory is not widely accepted in South Asia, DNA phenotyping is a progression from that and therefore out of the cultural dialogue, and for that matter in all cultures, in all the world, and for all time before the advent of science, anyone that is either physiologically or sociologically aberrant in a sexual way has had their sex determination up for philosophical debate. Physiological science had no readily identifiable part in the development of (pre-scientific, and therefore the entirety of) hijra culture; however, I think I agree with every assertion you have made about medical science's classification of hijras, except that I would tone down your "100%" assertions to "98%".
Doctors talking about men's health issues does have a prominent place in the article because that is the first line of Western thought in classifying the hijra. But the very fact that this comes up in literature at all is because the topic gets brought to debate with frequency beyond the ability of a few Western activist organizations to arrange.
Religion is important, but the cultural context is the heart of hijra-ness because the distinction is not there like it is in Western countries. In Abrahamic tradition, thieves, for example, generally do not pray for success in thievery. India-originated thought encourages all people to relate to the gods with less shame, so the "realist" and "idealist" distinctions you are making above are not, I think, distinctions that are best for describing this population. Whores and saints get the same ranking in piety so long as they do their dharm, so this is not a line I would encourage making without authority in literature.
What Mish is saying hardly has a section now, but since that has been the crux of most of what we have been writing about all this time, then perhaps the time to create a section is here.
Here is a playpen for the lede as it is now. It is untouched, but I would prefer to shift the primary definition of hijra-ness from any gender qualification to participation in the culture. Lots of people are male and not hijra; maleness or any other sex is incidental but not required in defining hijra, so hypothetically a space alien could be a hijra if the alien lived the hijra lifestyle. I would rather the medical stuff be taken prominently and thoroughly in a section. If it is time to jump in the sandbox, let's do it and start wrapping up the basics so we can focus on filling out the rest of the article with mass citations. Blue Rasberry 02:16, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Wow! That's as classy as "gender liminal" Mish! ::) I like "aspirational" and "practitional". Nanda uses "ideally" (rather than "spiritually") perhaps "in practice" might match that. Let's see. One thing's for sure, so long as we agree what we want to be saying, we will certainly be able to brainstorm a range of ways of how to say it.
I really like the subtlety of Mish's point, if I've understood it, that calling asexuality a third sex is not ideal in at least some contexts. Imagine there were seven sexes, couldn't some people persue an ideal of asexuality? Perhaps that would be classified as yet another sex, but perhaps not, depending on context. If I've followed Mish correctly, in gender studies terminology, the hijra historically-religious-ideal might be best classed as "asexuality" and "one of many possible genders".
Rasberry appears to present a case for the importance of presenting the hijra in their cultural setting. If I'm hearing correctly, part of that is recognising our own inclination to "frame" the hijra from the perspective of habits in our own culture and language. We shouldn't simply ask, what is a hijra? But we should recognize the answer will depend on point of view: self-identification, outside perception within an Indian context, and only finally Western templates for understanding them, be those medical, gender activist or gender conservative.
I think I like and agree with everything that is being said. I have a fresh suggestion, though. Since we are writing for average English readers that might include inquisitive Western teenagers, I propose we start but do not stop with something of a classic Western encyclopedic approach. My suspicion is that defining the hijra historically first will come across as encyclopedic. That will establish cultural context. Interaction with culture can follow. A picture of hijra as they see themselves and as they are perceived in South Asia can follow. Western attempts, both clinical and gender-progressive (or gender-creative) can then be compared and contrasted ,without us adopting a POV pro or con either, each has both positives and negatives, they've got different purposes.
But, to define the hijra historically, I still need more sources. Most sources either go down the men/castrated/STD-risk line, or the long-standing in South Asian tradition, alternative-sexuality and gender-liminality line. I did find two historical sources cited in a PhD thesis. I can't remember if they were available online, or in my local library. I'll have to check.
Any more thoughts? Alastair Haines (talk) 07:24, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Only a comment, but this is an English section of an international encyclopedia, and Indian English is one of the official languages in India with 90 million speakers; that is 30 million more than British English speakers. So, a substantial number of readers may be as familiar with the culture of the subcontinent as that of the West. Mish (talk) 08:55, 21 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hijra_(South_Asia)&oldid=414868224"