Talk:Silphium

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The spelling of lasarpicium or laserpicium

The change of lasarpicium to laserpicium doesn't match the spelling of the word in the translation Catullus 7, also the search word/link? was not changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3ASearch&search=lasarpicium&fulltext=Search

If you are going to fix the spelling fix it everwhere. Kurt Baty 23:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

In fact it is spelled both ways in Latin, so honestly I don't think it needed to be "fixed" at all. --Iustinus 01:01, 17 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

A statement about Jews

This page says that "Another possibility is that marauding Jews who disapproved of the Cyrenaic philosophical school of hedonism came through and massacred everyone who knew how to make the silphium resin, and possibly destroyed all the crops as well, throughout the region. There are records of Jews killing large numbers of people in this area, but it is not known to be related to silphium.". Is this verifiable, or is this merely anti-Semitic propaganda? Anthony Appleyard

Sounds suspect. Unless there's a citation of a repudable source stating this, I'd remove it. – Quadell ^{(talk) (bounties)} 12:53, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I'd agree, its rather inflammatory and I don't see anything in the external links that references this theory. .:.Jareth.:. ^babelfish 15:29, 9 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I wondered about that too. It was added by the same person who added a number of other theories of Silphium's extinction. That ip-numbered user hasn't made any other contributions. I left it in because the contribution as a whole looked 'serious'.--Srleffler 03:50, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

If it was sourced and made some kind of sense I wouldn't have a problem with it, but there is no source listed, and I'm not aware of one. It also doesn't seem to make any sense to me, I'm generally pretty well versed on ancient history, and I've not only never heard this theory, I'm not aware of any instances of 'marauding jews' around that time and place. I'd have to say, unless someone can source it, it should go. Arker 04:02, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

There was a big Jewish revolt in Judea in 66, and there seem to have been Jewish revolts in Cyrene in 73 and 117 (see Cyrene, Libya and livius.org). The Cyrene page says that 200,000 Romans and Greeks were killed in the latter revolt, and that "Libya was depopulated to such an extent that a few years later new colonies had to be established there, according to Eusebius". Perhaps one of these incidents was intended, but was poorly described.--Srleffler 07:06, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it was still be produced quite a bit later than that though. Can't seem to find a date on when it was last known to be produced now that I look, so I might be wrong on that. Arker 03:05, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

After further research it seems that the stuff was already endangered in the first century BC, and the last root was supposed to have been presented to Emperor Nero. This would put it before either of the Jewish Cyrenaican revolts. Still haven't found any source to link them, so it seems this was just nonsense. Arker 03:36, 11 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The page states that "[t]here are records of Jews killing large numbers of people in this area..." but does not reference the records in any way. Unless that reference can be provided, along with some details about who these 'Jews' were, I would like to see this entry removed. Lee Goddard, 13:39, 10 November 2005 (UTC)

Preposterous. Deleted.--Wetman 23:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Libya

"Cyrene is in modern-day Libya, which makes doing archaeological research there difficult." - And just why do you say this? - 28 december 2005

Heart-shape

"the fact that the seeds of silphium are shaped like a heart, leads to speculation that the character for ab may have been derived from the shape of the silphium seed." If Silphium is extinct, how is this "fact" determined? --Wetman 23:26, 10 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Well, from representations in art, presumably. But all the representations I've seen have shown the entire plant, and it's a pretty silly theory in any case:

Silphium

ỉb

Yes, from the coins of Kyrenaica:

Kurt Baty 00:02, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Well done, that does indeed look like the modern "heart symbol." It doesn't strike me as very similar the the Egyptian ib sign though. --Iustinus 00:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Bravo, Kurt! The photo you have added is great, but we need to figure out the copyright status. I'm sure the copyright on the coins themselves is long expired, but the photographer probably still holds copyright in the photo unless he/she has sold it. (Wikipedia is fussy about proper copyrights for all photos used.) About ỉb: I don't know anything about hieroglyphics, but often the way a symbol is written evolves over time. Perhaps earlier versions of ỉb were more heart-like. --Srleffler 02:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About the ỉb I can't say, but the discussion about it should be on the Heart (symbol) page/entry. To my knowledge, other than it's shape, there is no direct connection to the silphium plant. However the Human heart organ is part of a different hieroglyph "nefer". Kurt Baty 03:34, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

The ỉb sign is usually considered a stylized representation of an actual heart (even though to modern eyes it looks like some sort of pot). If you look carefully at the nfr sign, you will see a similarity to the ỉb sign. --Iustinus 18:07, 15 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Gilbert's theory

The theory by J.S. Gilbert, mentioned in the article, needs a citation. This was added by the same anonymous user who made the comments about Jews and Libya, which have been deleted. This doesn't automatically make the information suspect—it's a reasonable enough hypothesis, and the description is fairly detailed. My main concern is that this might be "Original Research" (WP:NOR). If this has been published somewhere, we need a reference citation to that.--Srleffler 00:29, 5 February 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since this paragraph has remained uncited (and unverified) for some time, I have removed it from the article pending verification. If someone can find a source for this material, please provide a reference.--Srleffler 01:41, 3 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Material removed from article

Another theory, by J. S. Gilbert^{[citation needed]}, is that the silphium resin the Cyreneans exported was not derived solely from the plant itself but also incorporated insect parts containing the chemical cantharidin. In order to make the exported product palatable to Greek tastes, the insect component was not advertised. When Roman governors took over they brought in slave labor to handle the production of silphium, but the slaves did not know how to make the proper gum, and so the medicinally effective silphium "went extinct". Cantharidin is toxic to humans and, much like pennyroyal tea, the ingestion of a small amount of it would not necessarily kill a grown human, but it would certainly kill a developing embryo.

What does it taste like?

??? --71.172.244.240 09:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Nobody really knows, since it's extinct. Worcestershire sauce is flavoured with a related herb, asafoetida, however.--Srleffler 05:21, 23 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Like asafoetida but better, is what the ancient sources suggest (they do not necessarily distinguish between the Cyrenaican variety that this article calls silphium and what we now call asafoetida; they are to e. g. Pliny higher and lower quality strains of the same thing, not fundamentally different plants.) Vultur (talk) 18:04, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

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Incorrect paraphrase of Pliny

The article says "Pliny reported that the last known stalk of silphium was given to the Emperor Nero "as a curiosity"."; but it links to the source (Naturalis Historia bk 19) which does not in fact say this. He says that the last stalk of silphium found in Cyrenaica was given to Nero, and that all the currently used laser (the term he uses for the sap; to Pliny laserpicium (Latin) or silphion (Greek) is the plant, laser the resin) comes from Persis, Media, and Armenia. He does say that this silphium is inferior to the old Cyrenaican kind, and many have taken this to mean it's a different species; but this is not in fact what Pliny says. Pliny does not distinguish in name between the Cyrenaican and Median/Armenian/Persian varieties, both are laserpicium and produce laser. So we can't source the claim that it went extinct to Pliny, since Pliny does not in fact say this (he says that it is still sold and worth its weight in silver -- he clearly does not think it is extinct!) I checked the original Latin, and there's nothing in there to suggest this either. Vultur (talk) 17:58, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have currently changed this to "last known stalk of silphium found in Cyrenaica was given" etc. But we should probably clarify further; the article falls harder on the side of "silphium is extinct or probably extinct" than the ancient sources really support. Vultur (talk) 18:00, 25 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Naming issue

The subject of this article isn't really silphium; it's "Cyrenaican silphium" or somesuch. Statements like "The plant grew along a narrow coastal area, about 125 by 35 miles, in Cyrenaica (in present-day Libya)" simply presume that only the better-quality Cyrenaican variety is *really* silphium. But this isn't at all clear in the ancient sources -- we need to be clearer about what the ancients actually said about silphium vs. the modern hypothesis that the higher-quality variety was a separate and now extinct species. 'Silphium' or 'laserpicium' did not only grow in Cyrenaica, nor is it extinct, as the terms could include asafoetida as well.

Specifically, of the classical sources given in the article:

-Herodotus long predates the extinction (or extirpation) of silphium, thus makes no claims about it

-Pausanias makes no claims about the identity or extinction of silphium, merely repeating a legend that silphium was left on a table in Phormion's house when the Dioscuri disappeared with his daughter

-Pliny seems to be the main source for claims of extinction. He says silphium was "otrriginally a native of the province of Cyrenaica", "For these many years past, however, it has not been found in Cyrenaica, as the farmers of the revenue who hold the lands there on lease, have a notion that it is more profitable to depasture flocks of sheep upon them. Within the memory of the present generation, a single stalk is all that has ever been found there, and that was sent as a curiosity to the Emperor Nero". But he also says "For this long time past, there has been no other laser imported into this country, but that produced in either Persis, Media, or Armenia, where it grows in considerable abundance, though much inferior to that of Cyrenaica; and even then it is extensively adulterated with gum, sacopenium, or pounded beans." (According to Pliny, 'laserpitium' is the Latin name, 'silphion' the Greek; 'laser' is the sap.) So he does not believe 'laserpicium' or 'silphion' is extinct; the Asian variety is covered by the same name as the North African.

Also the identification as Ferula tingitana is more widely held than this article suggests. Will insert more sources... Vultur (talk) 18:03, 10 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'd recommend an article on Ferula tingitana as a good place to commence.--Wetman (talk) 07:30, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'll see what I can make out of the little info that isn't "...is a possible identity for silphium" or recondite organic chemistry. Vultur (talk) 10:43, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Changes & more problems

I have reduced the article's insistence on the "extinct Ferula" identity of silphium - it is not as universal as the article used to suggest - adding other proposed identities. Also, I have added the 'treatment for madness' possibility in the Catullus reference.

Another problem is "Chief among its medical uses, according to Pliny the Elder, was its role as an herbal contraceptive." Actually, no. The reference is to Naturalis Historia 22.49, which does not mention contraception -- the contraceptive use has sometimes been *inferred* from Pliny's mention of its use to "promote the menstrual discharge". Nor does he imply that its 'chief' use was this, either; it is not especially called out among the over two dozen uses listed. I have removed this statement, since it is simply false.

(The whole 'contraceptive' thing seems to be a recent appearance on the scene - 1990s - that spread because it's sensational; it's based on comparatively little actual classical evidence. While it may well have been used as a contraceptive/abortifacient, I see no evidence it was more valued for this than the dozens of other uses.) Vultur (talk) 10:45, 21 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good call on removing the false claim about what Pliny said. The article does need to say, though, that people have interpreted his mention of "promoting the menstural discharge" as a reference to contraception.--Srleffler (talk) 05:41, 22 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

OK, good point. Thanks. I agree; I just had not found a source explicitly making the connection that wasn't relentlessly popularizing (a Salon.com article does say so explicitly, but it's questionable in other ways). The Straight Dope article should do for now, but hopefully I can find something more scholarly.

I have no problem with the idea that it was used as a contraceptive (or, more likely, early-term abortifacient -- but quite possibly so early-term the Romans wouldn't have recognized the difference); it's the recent idea that that was its central use, the reason that it was so economically important, that is worryingly sensationalist. Vultur (talk) 10:13, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Apicius

"Silphium retained a ghostly literary half-life in lists of aromatics copied one from another..."

Another source I've found, though, suggests this (along with its mention by Synesius of Cyrene) is evidence that it didn't go extinct, and was still known, as late as the early fifth century.

(There is the secondary problem that 'silphium', 'laserpicium' etc. can mean "asafoetida" [and maybe other Ferulas] as well.)

I'll see if I can trace down the History of Food book and see precisely what it says. Vultur (talk) 11:35, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Identity

The flat statement "Silphium was a plant of the genus Ferula" is too absolute - a couple other genera have been suggested. (I agree that Thapsia is probably wrong, but I'm not sure we can rule out Cachrys ferulacea (annoyingly - since the argument for that one is decent - the only thing close to a scholarly source I can find disagrees with that identity in pretty harsh terms [and completely ignores post-Pliny reports of Cyrenaican silphium, AFAICT]. Ah well -- I can at least cite it as evidence that Cachrys ferulacea has been suggested as an identity.)

I don't think "generally considered to be an extinct giant fennel" belongs in the lead either. With these new sources, I don't think the "extinct Ferula" identity has a sufficient majority to be considered "general" -- Ferula tingitana also has a very good claim.

I moved all the identity stuff out of the lead because it is too complex to be covered there. Vultur (talk) 11:51, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The identity and possible extinctness of silphium is an important enough feature that it has to be mentioned in the introduction. I reorganized the intro to flow better, however, which moved the discussion of silphium's identity out of the first sentence.

Egyptian heart soul symbol

I am considering removing the discussion of similarity between the heart symbol and the Egyptian "heart soul" symbol.

I don't really see the similarity myself.
It is uncited, and has been so for a long time.
It is of peripheral relevance.

The similarity between silphium seeds and the modern heart symbol is striking, and should stay in. It's the Egyptian connection I am questioning. If this can be supported by a reliable source, great. Otherwise it should go.--Srleffler (talk) 02:33, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A second thought: what is really missing, besides citations, is anything that connects the Egyptian heart soul symbol to the modern heart symbol. That is needed to establish relevance.--Srleffler (talk) 02:35, 24 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. I think the Egyptian symbol discussion should not be on this page, it should be moved to the heart symbol page. Unless it can be tied more directly to silphium. Kurt Baty (talk) 13:08, 2 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]