User talk:EdJohnston

Arbitration

Hello. Do you know is there a superior/higher instance to which i could try and appeal regarding the sanction imposed on me? I regard that the case wasn't sufficiently examined, and that was ruled upon even with predisposition - presumably because of predilection towards me being "POVed". This appears as impartiality in arbitration on your behalf, especially when considering some other editors' comments regarding the arbitration in question at the very case's discussion and at response to third opinion request at the Kosovo article's discussion page. I specifically wish to acknowledge your hastiness, therefore thoughtlessness, and all in all, arrogance - in my opinion. Because of that i will protest against first two of those displayed characteristics, i noticed and mentioned. The third characteristic of yours, which i noticed regarding this case, is up to you and you only. Why am i being so harsh - because you ended the discussion regarding the arbitration of this case without answering my question where the discussion should continue. Now, according to your ruling i am forbidden to comment even to talk pages with touch the Kosovo topic. This i find very inappropriate and even more damaging. And that damaging not just for me. With sincere hope that this issue will be resolved soon, have my regards, --biblbroks (talk) 10:33, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

You have three options for appeal:

1. You can ask me, as the closing admin
2. You can file a Template:Arbitration enforcement appeal at WP:Arbitration enforcement
3. You can appeal to Arbcom

I'm willing to listen to your request to have the ban lifted. The rationale for your ban is here. If you are willing to make some assurances about your editing about Kosovo in the next three months, the ban might be reconsidered. In the original WP:AE request, I was concerned you were not taking the matter seriously; for example, "you simply have to choose whether to trust me or not."

Literally, no, we don't have to trust you. We can wait to see if you will make reasonable assurances about editing within policy, and then see whether a sanction is needed. Your responses were hard to understand. They suggested not only a language barrier, but that you weren't understanding the rules about editing in contentious ethnic areas. You also made very long posts on talk pages, which is something that is often a trademark of WP:POV editing. Extremely diplomatic editing is needed, and a willingness to patiently work with others to agree on compromise wording. If your position could be clarified, we might get somewhere. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 12:25, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

• Literally, you are right - as far as your statement is concerned. You personally don't have to trust me. As neither of any other wikipedians and/оr Wikipedians - or "wikipedianesses" and/or "Wikipedianesses" for that matter - have to trust me. But you personally (as well as any other person for that matter) had - and have to - _choose_ whether to trust me. Or not. And i stated that. And i believe i stated it very clearly. I admit that this statement of mine was given in a moment of exasperation, and this i believe was the product of a topic ban for me being even requested at all. Although i understand and admit i acted rather hastily when excluding de, bs and la interwikis, so a topic ban might be formally justified when considering that change of mine. Truly, maybe not just formally, but i too can be enthusiastic - even then, can i? So there does lie my mistake, but not in many more other places - i strongly believe.
• As for you, as far as i can tell, you did chose _not_ to trust me. And that even before discussing the matter properly. This was when you were claiming: "We need to be assured that he.... will stop editing Kosovo-related articles from a nationalist POV". I apologize for taking the liberty to freely excerpt words from your wordings, but i think your message was and is still clear - and that is that you chose not to trust me. Why, because your claim represents hastiness in giving your opinions, which on the other hand represents insufficiency of thoughtfulness on your behalf - all in the case in matter: arbitration regarding a topic ban on me. Why: because i believe you haven't considered the discussion at Kosovo article enough.
• Also, if my responses were hard to understand, that can't be simply my fault only - perhaps you should have invested some additional effort and "perspect" the thing from a different perspective - than i understand you did perspect. It appears to me that you didn't invest that additional effort - be your own judge for yourself whether you did or not. And everything what you claimed about policies, potential language barriers, perceived long posts, etc, is very well known to me and even more clearly understood by me. So bear in mind that in that highly "contentious ethnic area" - as you call it and as i may agree with you to call it (but currently i am not keen to agree with you even on few things) - well, in that Kosovo article as well as Kosovo article discussion, i remained (and that i very strongly believe) very neutral or to the least i managed to be so very neutral that it was evident to many contributors. But, but when examining the courtesy i exercised in the discussion comparing to some other editors' manners - to some editors' manners involved in the dispute in matter - so when examining the level of my courtesy, well i honestly believe that you had a complete failure. I believe my courtesy was unequaled - or to be completely fair - unequaled as compared to some other editors' manners. That is not all of course, but unequaled to some editors' manners. That courtesy (if true, or at least, if verified as such) could demonstrate a very high level of tact and diplomacy on my behalf. Tact and diplomacy which you claim is needed in that willingness you mention. That's for my willingness. As for your willingness, i will state lastly and only two things more. Firstly, I think my position is very clear now, and if you still think that the option which you numbered with 1. isn't viable, i will certainly try my luck with other options. Secondly, I hope you will reconsider _your_ position since:

1. i don't think my luck will betray me with my position, but i am not certain about yours with your _current_ position,
2. and because i believe in your good faith.

Trust me, that comment about your luck wasn't meant as any kind of threat, but a mere expression of utter exhaustion that such long posting of mine was perceived as needed at all. Good luck to you, --biblbroks (talk) 19:43, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

Please tell me there's an appeal in there somewhere? I was hoping for some assurances for the future, if you were to resume editing on Kosovo. Note this comment which was made in the original AE thread: "We need to be assured that he will follow 1RR in the future, will stop adjusting the interwiki links and will stop editing Kosovo-related articles from a nationalist POV." I would also add now "will agree not to make changes that could be contentious without getting consensus first on the talk page." Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 21:17, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I hope i don't understand your pardon. I think you understood what i was trying to say with "you did chose _not_ to trust me ... when you were claiming ....we need to be assured that he will ...stop editing Kosovo-related articles from a nationalist POV." Where in those words was neutral arbitration? That is my question to you - as direct as i IMNSHO think it can be. Why - because i find that you weren't able to read between the lines of my appeal. Because if you still think that you were arbitrating neutrally and on the other hand almost at the same time claiming that i was editing Kosovo-related articles from a nationalist POV, i think you should carefully think again. If you have already thought over, than give me an example of my edits to Kosovo-related articles from a nationalist POV. I think that at least this i deserve. Because i still hope i don't have to explain what was my appeal about. You were pleading to me for telling you that there was an appeal there somewhere - or where you just sarcastic? Since i believe it is the second possibility that is true, i will plead no more (if i were pleading at all) - i don't think you deserve to be pleaded to. For now. Regards, --biblbroks (talk) 23:34, 9 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't see a need to re-analyze the evidence behind this case. All I'm asking is that you'll agree to those four things:

1. Observe 1RR/week in the future on all articles related to Kosovo
2. Not modify any interwiki links on articles related to Kosovo
3. You will try to ensure strict political neutrality for any edits you make to Kosovo-related articles
4. You won't make any controversial changes without first getting consensus on the talk page.

The deal is that you would observe these limitations for three months. If you agree, I will lift the ban from Kosovo-related articles. EdJohnston (talk) 00:27, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I changed the revert limit above to 1RR/week, since that is the current limit for all editors at Kosovo. EdJohnston (talk) 14:32, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

TFD's AE discussion

Hi Ed, you have been doing a mavellous job of corralling the admins to comment on this case, but I do wonder why you haven't offered any comment yourself. Having been involved in past AE cases falling within the scope of "Eastern Europe" you might have saved some discussion on matters such as to whether this case actually falls within the same scope. --Martin (talk) 01:35, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

I am eager to see this case closed. The numerical !vote of admins is against the ban, so in my opinion all that is left is a matter of wording. I would like to see the interested admins make a deal if necessary, but get it over with. EdJohnston (talk) 02:39, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Well some of the admins opposing any remedy appear to be operating under the misapprehension that this is unrelated to EE. TFD's has been warned time and again before, and it seems evident that he will again be given yet another warning. Having backed down and offered to replace TFD's topic ban with a warning, some admins are even disputing Fred's wording of this warning. I sure hope this apparent lenience on TFD has been worth the apparent impact on Fred caused by this lack of support. --Martin (talk) 05:36, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

AE can't solve all problems. TFD's atttitude regarding Lia Looveer attracted a bunch of criticism, but it's not clear that it is bad enough to deserve sanctions under DIGWUREN. RFC/U is available to those who feel the issues with his editing are not sufficiently addressed. EdJohnston (talk) 13:11, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Hello, Ed, I echo Martin's sentiments. I was disappointed that the situation was viewed as

• the same-old same old, and
• a joke about someone who doesn't deserve an article anyway and that making out someone of Baltic heritage to be a Nazi in Wikipedia content when there is no reliable source for same is no big deal, and
• unrelated to the EE dispute when all editors who showed up have strong POV's regarding Russia right or Russia wrong on its version of Baltic history.

Frankly I found the dismissive wave of the collective admin hand troubling. Not treating the matter seriously is going to encourage further aggression against content and editors. PЄTЄRS J V ►TALK 17:38, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pulling your finger out and resolving this. After effectively serving a ten day topic ban I hope TFD finally gets the message and returns to more productive editing. --Martin (talk) 00:28, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Appreciation!

Re [1]: You're a brave man and an unusually useful human being! --Stephan Schulz (talk) 19:05, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

Concur. That action required some guts. (Igny (talk) 00:10, 11 May 2011 (UTC))

No guts required, just a brain. --Martin (talk) 00:16, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you!

It was really nice and helpful of you. Thank you!--Mbz1 (talk) 19:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Harassment and censorship

You warned me this way

Please be aware that nationalist edit-warring about famous people who seem to have both Croatian and Italian connections is not new on Wikipedia. The Arbitration Committee has handled similar cases in the past. If you continue your program of 'Italianization' you will most likely be warned under WP:ARBMAC, which covers nationalist editing on topics related to the Balkans. This could lead to a permanent ban from your making any edits in this topic area. If you hope to be here long term, please listen to feedback and work with others. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 16:02, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

then you blocked me for, as you say, 'you have been blocked from editing for a period of 72 hours for edit warring.'

• There is no my program of 'Italianization'. Giulio Clovio was an Italian painter and his place of birth was dutifully mentioned. That's a scholar attitude valid across the academic community worldwide. Here the 'Italian' attribute is used purely academically: Clovio belonged to the Italian medieval civilization and culture.

• I was not involved in any edit warring. My reverts, questions and clarifications were support to prof David's academic approach to this biography. Also, edit warring if existing has at least two sides. Selecting one arbitrarily, as you did, is a harassment.

• Giulio Clovio was not "Julije Klovic" no matter which "references" might be used. To understand this, you have to have proper knowledge and academic background. Entering such nonsense only harms Wikipedia's credibility. Good insight into the "name" problem is given by me on the article talk page.

• The other participants in this discussion used words "professor", idiot, then baseless disqualifications of my and prof. David's academic credentials. How come that such people are not warned and blocked for that behavior? How come that you do not see it or you do not want to see it?

• Why you are not paying attention to the fact that AnnekeBart and Philosopher12 are falsely referencing books in order to support false claims?

• As per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators#Accountability, 'Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed.'. So, please, do that here.

--Luciano di Martino (talk) 13:46, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

You reverted the article on Giulio Clovio three times. The case was reported at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/3RRArchive157#User:Luciano di Martino reported by User:AnnekeBart (Result: 72h, ARBMAC). In arriving at a decision to block your account, I was most influenced by your removal of the following reference from the article:

• John Van Antwerp Fine, When ethnicity did not matter in the Balkans: a study of identity in pre-nationalist Croatia, Dalmatia, and Slavonia in the medieval and early-modern periods, University of Michigan Press, 2006, p 195 Google Books.

This is a modern scholarly reference (2006) which is surely going to be helpful to editors working on the article, in deciding what role the different nationalities played in the makeup of this artist. Can you explain how it makes the article *better* for you to remove a reference that seems to support the side you are arguing against? Do you think this is a good-faith action on your part? Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 14:28, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue here is that you either did not read what you are referring to or you do not understand what you've read. What prof. Fine says is quite clear:

Thus, we cannot read into the labels of clear ethnic messsage. ... Whether Coatia was just an identifying mark, separatnig him from many other Juliuses in Italy, or whether he took his place of origin as a serious or ethnic-type identity, of course, cannot be determined from signature alone.

which denies what you are trying to prove. Clearly the opposite side is not supported by prof. Fine. As I said above, it was dutifully mentioned that Clovio's place of birth is in today's Croatia. But when talking about Italian medieval culture and civilization, Clovio was always mentioned as and Italian painter in the sense that he belonged to that culture and civilization. Moreover, there is no Julije Klovic, there is only Giulio Clovio. If you do Google advanced search, then you'll learn that it gives:

• Giulio Clovio Advanced search About 18,100 results (0.13 seconds)
• Julije Klovic Advanced search About 551 results (0.19 seconds) ---> these results are coming from sources prof. Fine disqualified as serious in his book.

As you see, I can use prof. Fine's point of view against you and your friends and add his book as proper reference against not-so-serious scholar attitudes of Croatian historians named in his book on page 195. Then the next question for you is: why you are not sanctioning uncivil language, personal attacks, and arbitrary disqualifications used against me and prof David?!--Luciano di Martino (talk) 19:11, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

As an admin, I am not going to give my own opinion as to how the nationality of Giulio Clovio should be described. That is for the editors at Talk:Giulio Clovio to decide. You will see at User talk:AnnekeBart#Personal attacks that I advised her to be careful with her language. You did not reply to my question as to whether your removal of the reference was in good faith. That is, do you sincerely think it makes the article better to exclude the John Fine reference? EdJohnston (talk) 19:24, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• I'm trying to tell you that you have to read the reference before passing any judgement about its content. You are blindly refusing to admit that you were wrong. Prof. Fine's work is against the line followed by your friends and which 'contributions' you are pointlessly guarding ('contributions'= claiming nonsense then calling upon a book that exposes and rejects the same nonsense). My removal of that reference was professional and academic, therefore in the best faith. However, the same reference shall be used the way outlined by Prof. Fine in the two sentences quoted by me and underlined above, i.e. refusing guessing ethnicity of a man based on his nickname or his signature as un-scholastic. Again, as per http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators#Accountability, Administrators are expected to respond promptly and civilly to queries about their Wikipedia-related conduct and administrator actions and to justify them when needed.. Which way you approached this issue civilly and why you are refusing to justify your action?--Luciano di Martino (talk) 02:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

You have a reply

Hello, EdJohnston. You have new messages at Crashdoom's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Communist terrorism

Is already under 1RR -- and, absent vandal edits from IPS, I do not see any actual reason for semi-protection there. One editor who has complained has also weighed in on SPI accusations which were not well-founded, and I would suggest the rationale that he thinks all IPs who disagree with his POV are socks is insufficient. Cheers. BTW, you might also look at Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Lia_Looveer to see the nature of the colloquy involved. Cheers. Collect (talk) 22:50, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

The IP is probably a sockpuppet of blocked User:Marknutley/User:Tentontunic.

Your record at SPI is a teensy bit poor, alas. Collect (talk) 00:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Both editors used dynamic IPs from England to edit-war and exceed 1RR over the POV tag on this article. TFD (talk) 01:02, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Regardless of where the IP came from, he broke the 1RR restriction. He also reverted the neutrality tag while making no appearance on the article's talk page. If anyone believes this is Tentontunic, they are welcome to open an SPI. Hopefully the semiprotection takes away most of the problem. EdJohnston (talk) 01:17, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Usually a block on the IP is sufficient. The accusations cover a substantial number of UK ISPs <g>, which made the accusation that they are all one person quite unlikely. In fact, an IP in Portugal was accused, and now one in Hong Kong. A50000 was also accused - so far the accused IPs have not been MarkNutley AFAICT. So we have an article semi-protected due to a handful of edits TFD dislikes (sigh). Cheers. Collect (talk) 10:55, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

See the archives for WP:OP. mark nutley btw admitted using IPs. TFD (talk) 15:39, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Managing never to use one you IDed with any evidence at all? Like from Hong Kong, Portugal and three different British ISPs? I rather think that the "boy who cried 'sock' at SPI" is a new fable for Wikipedia. Cheers. Collect (talk) 16:08, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

The issue for this thread is whether semiprotection is a good idea. Since the focus has moved elsewhere, so should this discussion. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Could you help please?

Hi Ed, you have dealt with user:Ohiostandard on my behalf already, but the user still continues to hound my contributions and assume a bad faith. You remember that when you asked the user to reconsider its unwarranted language about me, the user responded to you with rather long [...], in which it named an article that I wrote more than a year ago as being under-sourced. The user found this article while hounding over my contributions, and I am 100% sure of it. Then user:Roscelese saw the mention of this article at user:Ohiostandard's talk page, and nominated it on deletion. Both users took a great effort to delete the article. If you are to look at the history of AfD you will see that user:Ohiostandard made 30 edits on it, more than any other editor did, but that comment is way too much. In that comment user:Ohiostandard is quoting the comment made by user:Roscelese at my DYK nomination: "Oh look, one of Mbz1's buddies pops up again to approve a severely flawed article. Fancy that." and than adds from itself: "Also, it seems relevant to observe, since the fact hasn't been mentioned previously: As was also the case when Hodja Nasreddin showed up and supported her previously, Mbz1 is the creator of this article".

Ed,user:Hodja Nasreddin is not my buddy, actually quite the opposite. May I please ask you to take a look at only two most recent communications of me with user:Hodja Nasreddin #1 and #2. Do they look like communications of buddies to you? But even, if user:Hodja Nasreddin were my "buddy", does it mean that they should not vote on AfD only because I am the author of the article? Ed, to me the conduct of user:Ohiostandard as I described it here, and in our email exchange that includes hounding and making a false accusations is the worst type of harassment. From my own sad experience I know that if I am not dealing with the false accusations on the spot eventually they are used to make me unfairly sanctioned. May I please ask you to impose an absolutely equally applied interaction ban between user:Ohiostandard and me, or if you would not do it, could you please tell me how to deal with such users? Thanks.--Mbz1 (talk) 13:30, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

It appears you have been clashing with Ohiostandard and Roscelese due to matters which originated at DYK. We expect that editors who often participate at DYK will be skilled at working with others to find consensus. Please employ your diplomatic skills to settle the current matters. Your message does not mention anyone violating any Arbcom restrictions. You must be aware that the possibility of tag-team approvals at DYK has been floated, though I don't know how valid the complaint was. With a good approach, you could work these things out without constantly resorting to admins. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 15:33, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

What tag-team approvals of DYK are you talking about? I was not even talking about a bad faith decline of my absolutely valid DYK by Roscelese. I was talking about a bad faith comment by Ohiostandard at AfD concerning an article I started.I was talking about this comment. Where is DYK tag-teaming approval here?

Who said that interaction bans should be used only if somebody violating Arbcom restrictions? Have I said somebody violated Arbcom restriction? I was talking about persisting hounding + false accusations = harassment by Ohiostandard, and asked for your help.

Any differences of me "constantly resorting to admins" please? (highlighted by me)

Your comment is more than unhelpful. --Mbz1 (talk) 16:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

In the past I helped you because your topic ban kept you from taking certain steps that are open to regular editors. It is hard for me to see any difficulties here, in your new request, that are not the kind of thing you could negotiate yourself. I did see a complaint that Broccolo was approving a lot of your DYKs at WT:DYK#Articles in contentious topic areas: "we have a COI problem with users who belong to a particular political faction attempting to verify articles submitted by their ideological buddies." A situation like that is eminently within your control, and you shouldn't need any help from me to arrive at a solution. The comments by Ohiostandard and Roscelese that you included above seem to be a follow-on to that dispute, which I'm not closely following. EdJohnston (talk) 16:36, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Ed, I hope that you'd agree that it is not a good practice to talk about something that from your own words you are "not closely following". It is anyway as talking about something that you know nothing about.

Ed, what Broccolo has to do with user:Hodja Nasreddin? In case you did not notice they are two different editors. Do you believe that anybody who approves my DYK could be called my buddy? Really?

When was the last time Broccolo approved my DYK?

How many times user:Hodja Nasreddin approved my DYK?

What this article Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler story has to do with "contentious topic areas",and what " particular political faction" it belongs to?

What this article Reuel Abraham has to do with "contentious topic areas",and what " particular political faction" it belongs to?

If I am being harassed am I allowed to ask for the help by an admin only at the matter that is covered by my unfair topic ban? What steps should I be taking? In the past I tried to talk to both users, but in response I got only more trolling well, should not use the right word, but not sure what word to use instead.

What the disgusting AfD comment made by Ohiostandard has to do with tag-teaming of DYK?

Ohiostandard behavior around this AfD, Ed, notice, not DYK, AfD, has been disgusting all over, and now after AfD was closed the user goes on at the closing admin talk page.

Once again your comment is unhelpful. --Mbz1 (talk) 17:06, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Ban from Iranian articles

I did not have time to visit Wikipedia in the past week, but I have to say that in my absence and inability to comment, this hasty conclusion is the most biased, unfair, imbalanced and WP:POV judgment I have ever encountered from AE. Restricting users based on their opinion, using WP:HARASSMENT, evidence obtained by hacking email accounts in violation of WP:PRIVACY, accepting forged and frivolous claims from hack sites targeting users for their editing opinion is something not quite worthy of encyclopedia or administrating behavior. It is a rather tacit approval for exercising the same violations against users in future to target and push them away from editing articles. Atabəy (talk) 15:29, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Please see the rationale for the closure of the AE request which was given here. I'm afraid that neither you nor Khodabandeh14 explained yourselves very well. I did invite you to propose how to reach agreement on the article. I hoped you would then:

• offer to open an RfC or advertise the questions for wider input.
• promise not to make any more reverts at Safavid dynasty until a consensus was found.

I was disappointed in your answer. (The whole discussion is archived at User talk:EdJohnston/Archive 21#AE case against Atabəy). It was frustrating that both of you spoke at such length but your arguments made so little sense. But you were the one with all the past blocks and sanctions as logged in the ARBAA cases. You keep complaining about people hacking into email, but that did not play any role in how the case was decided. I recommend that you stop using that as an argument. (Arbcom did not make any official response to the data given to them, and they said nothing to me).

Any hint of your being sincerely open to dialog with others at Safavid dynasty could change the situation, and could make it possible to lift the ban. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 16:14, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I was simply away from Wikipedia for nearly 10 days, on personal business reasons. While I understand the need to close AE report, I don't think the lack of answer from myself due to being away justified a ban decision taken based on Khodabandeh's allegations. I believe the Safavid dynasty article in its current version reflects the language transliterations that I was seeking (with exception of Kurdish and Georgian irrelevant spellings). So why did have to cost my ban to get that? I believe there is a ground to move on with other editing discussions on talk page, if I am given an opportunity. As far as using evidence from hacked sites, well the fact that alleging user (Khodabandeh14) was not restricted for rather grave and repeated violations of WP:HARASSMENT, while the user he accused of "battleground mentality and nationalism" based on that forged evidence was restricted, tacitly implies the support for those allegations. And as already indicated, all my edits referenced by Khodabandeh in his frivolous AE report were from the period preceding ArbCom case that drew judgments and applied restrictions on those. Why ban me now for those again? Atabəy (talk) 16:38, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I'm afraid this looks to me like more of the same rhetoric that was so unpersuasive the first time. Even in your last answer, you continue the attacks on Khodabandeh. The phrase 'forged evidence' is not helping your case. If you don't want to sound like a nationalist edit warrior, you could be speaking differently. I'm sorry not to be more helpful. You can appeal your ban at WP:AE using the template {{Arbitration enforcement appeal}}. If unsatisfied with the response there, you can appeal to Arbcom. If you want to begin a real conversation, I'd consider lifting the ban myself, but I don't perceive you as being interested in a real conversation. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 16:57, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I indicated clearly above that I am willing to discuss the issue on the talk page, and the fact that the requested transliteration now remains in the page, means there is a progress. I have not personally attacked Khodabandeh14, I was only subjected to one based on clear violations of privacy and harassment rules in AE, none of which seemed to be enforced. But if a decision is made to lift my restriction without AE appeal, I am willing to forget and to continue working towards consensus as I did for years on Safavid dynasty, a lot of material in which is a result of my contributions. If you could be a bit more clear about what is meant by "real conversation", that would help too. Atabəy (talk) 17:04, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Please see my two suggestions above:

• offer to open an RfC or advertise the questions for wider input.
• promise not to make any more reverts at Safavid dynasty until a consensus was found.

To those suggestions I would now add:

• Stop speaking about 'hacked email' or 'forged evidence' unless you wish to communicate directly to Arbcom by email about that. In that case your ban would remain in effect unless Arbcom sees differently.

Let me know if you would agree to those three things. EdJohnston (talk) 17:19, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree. As far as the evidence in violation of Wikipedia rules, I did relay my concerns about that to the ArbCom via email 10 days ago. Will follow up. Regarding reverts on Safavid dynasty. Say, hypothetically, if I inserted a POV tag and substantiated it with a comment opening a discussion thread, while another anonymous IP shows up reverting and removing the tag without any discussion, what's the procedure for preventing that other than reverts? Atabəy (talk) 18:09, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I am waiting to hear your answer on point #3. You need to agree to stop using the phrases 'hacked email' or 'forged evidence' on any page of Wikipedia. This is a condition of my lifting your ban from Safavid dynasty. If you don't agree to this condition, you can try the other appeal steps. EdJohnston (talk) 18:26, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree, however, on a condition that my agreement shall not imply in any way my acceptance of the evidence provided in AE report alleging links to me as editor to be true. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 23:34, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. That takes care of #3. Next, can you offer some ideas for what form of discussion could be used to reach consensus at Safavid dynasty? Do you know of any experts within Wikipedia, or any WikiProjects that might be consulted? It should not be hard to get some ideas. That page has 12 archive files, and it has some project banners on it. You might also look in the edit history to find the names of some people who have added new content to the article. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 23:41, 16 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Can you please, update the Arbcom page entry? I think the opinion of users from WP:WikiProject_Azerbaijan, some of which were involved in Safavid dynasty editing in past, would be relevant for reaching consensus. The main disagreement on that page is primarily due to attempts to associate Safavids with solely Iranian heritage, while the dynasty was really diverse, both ethnically and linguistically to be attached a particular national title. As I indicated in one of my past comments, calling Safavids as Iranian is like renaming Roman Empire to be called Roman Italian Empire. Atabəy (talk) 21:52, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

I would like a specific commitment from you to wait for consensus. (See #1 and #2 above). I would like you to take some concrete action, like open a WP:Request for comment, and make an agreement not to revert until consensus is reached. If you only plan to ask Azeri editors, you are unlikely to collect a balanced set of opinions. I made a proposal for how you could contact knowledgeable editors, and you have not responded to that. The dispute seems to be about the extent of Azeri influence in Iraq Iran in a certain historical period. If you can propose the wording of the question to be settled by the Request for comment, that would already be progress. EdJohnston (talk) 22:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

It's actually Azeri influence in Iran not Iraq, or to be more precise, the Azerbaijani background of Safavid dynasty. According to Encyclopedia Britannica, for example, the dynasty's founder first proclaimed himself as Shah of Azerbaijan in 1501. So calling the dynasty now solely Safavid Iranian dynasty isn't quite historically correct.

Currently, the Safavid talk page is overwhelmed by the opinion of one side. So my intention to ask Azeri editors only sought to introduce some form of balance. The page was far more peaceful and balanced before, when everybody was involved. As far as reverting, I feel like I am being blamed for all reverts occurring on Safavid dynasty, but if you pay attention to history of the page, my reverts were only a small fraction of revert conflicts by anonymous IP and other editors. I have no interest in reverting without consensus, in general. My only concern are the anonymous IPs which disrupt the page while discussions go on. I will consider opening an RFC, I just have to formulate the report which takes time. Atabəy (talk) 00:00, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I will wait and see if you have time to format an RfC and if you will make the other assurances I requested above. I need you to agree to #1 and #2 pretty much verbatim, and you may not be willing to do that. Until then the ban remains in place. Safavid dynasty is currently semiprotected so there should be no problem from IP edits. EdJohnston (talk) 01:01, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I disagree with the lifting of the ban as the comments above show. The user simply wants to remove a term that gets 200+ scholarly google book hits: [2] (Safavid dynasty of Iran). That is unacceptable per wikipedia policy and falls under wikipedia: "I don't like it". RFC is also not the way to go as the issue needs mediation after Atabey stops the nationalistic mode of talking and editing. The mediatiors in the end will also say 200+ WP:RS sources are fine. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:38, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

One more point for EdJohnston.. Also I would like to note a new nationalist comment on Atabey's own personal webpage [3]. He changes: " This user supports the cultural and linguistic rights of people in South Azerbaijan and respects the unity and integrity of Iran. " to "This user supports the cultural, linguistic, political freedoms of people in South Azerbaijan. ". So in short, he is clearly stating that he supports dissolution of Iran. Even the term "South Azerbaijan" are used by people that want to separate part of Iran. Now do you think such a user can be objective when it comes to Safavids and their usage of the name Iran? I don't think wikipedia should be used as a political platform for writing nationalistic statements. Rather it should be a place to write an objective encyclopaedia and thats it only. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:51, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I will open an RfC on Safavid dynasty, I am currently preparing report for that. I apologize for the delay, I am just tied up with many other things in past two weeks. As far as Khodabandeh's comments, what I post in my personal space is my own view, not meant to be a political statement as it never was. I wish him to assume good faith in future. Atabəy (talk) 17:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry but wishing for dissolution of another country is a political statement and inline with battleground editing. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 17:21, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I don't see where I wished for a dissolution of any country in my user page. This accusation seems to be an overwhelming assumption of bad faith. Atabəy (talk) 17:56, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Atabey violating his patrol

And a second point for EdJohnton Please note this: [4], he added Iranian Azerbaijan to the article, although this is a violation of his patrol, as he is not supposed to edit any Iran related topic. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 16:56, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

The Azerbaijani American article is not about Iran but about ethnic Azerbaijani community in America. Many Azerbaijani speakers in US, originally from Iranian Azerbaijan, identify themselves as Azerbaijani-Americans. Here is a website of one such organization [5] listed on that page out of many. I don't see how this article is Iran-related, moreover, how my edit there violates any restriction. Very sad that the user feels emboldened now by application of bans on others, it only clarifies his intent. Atabəy (talk) 17:10, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I encourage Atabəy to avoid further edits that include the word 'Iranian', such as a change he made at Azerbaijani American. Such edits do test the limits of his ban. EdJohnston (talk) 17:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Thank you, Ed. I will keep that in mind. By the way, a more relevant geographic name that could be used in that case on Azerbaijani American, in order to avoid using word "Iranian", is South Azerbaijan. But I won't touch that edit and keep it as is for now, to avoid further misunderstandings while we get things sorted out. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 17:44, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

You added the word from Iran to the article, so it is Iran related [6] as you are claiming (incorrectly or correctly, it doesn't matter), that some people from Iran fall under the definition. So it is Iran/Iranian related and actually the definition has been a contenious issue (as you have edited contentious sources yourself to the article).. For example if you look at the talkpage and the article which your were involved in, there was a dispute wether Azeri Turkish speakers from Iran are Iranian-Americans or Azerbaijani-American. This is a clearly a violation as you were involved in the editing with regards to the contentious issue. Also your statement is: "Very sad that the user feels emboldened now by application of bans on others, it only clarifies his intent" completely inline with battleground mentality. Your ignoring of Encyclopaedia Britannica first line and the other line is also inline with battle-ground mentality. Picking one line from the body of Britannica, without looking at all the other lines which contradict your viewpoint is a demonstration of battleground type editing. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 17:31, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Just to show another sample POV

Dear Ed, I know you don't want to be involved in the content dispute part, but this is very important. Please just note this statement by Atabəy in your userpage: "According to Encyclopedia Britannica, for example, the dynasty's founder first proclaimed himself as Shah of Azerbaijan in 1501. So calling the dynasty now solely Safavid Iranian dynasty isn't quite historically correct. " Now please just note the first line of Britannica link that Atabəy provided: "Ṣafavid Dynasty, (1502–1736), Iranian dynasty whose establishment of Shīʿite Islām as the state religion of Iran was a major factor in the emergence of a unified national consciousness among the various ethnic and linguistic elements of the country" I'll let you judge for yourself! Please also note the statement in Britannica: "1501 Ismāʿīl was enthroned as shah of Azerbaijan. By May of the next year he was shah of Iran....". In actuality, all the primary sources state that when Tabriz was taken in 1501, he declared himself the title of Padishah-e Iran, and secondary sources support this.

However, I just wanted to note that in the Britannica link Atabəy provided, it states in the first line: "Iranian dynasty whose establishment of Shīʿite Islām ", but he simply ignores his own Britannica link with regards to the introduction. Note his claim that calling the Roman empire as Italian is the same as calling Safavid empire of Iran is obviously not supported by his own Britannica link that he provided. I do not think RFC is good enough, the user should comeback in three months and do a mediation, although I believe he violated his parol as the above shows and this should be extended indefinitely with regards to Iran related articles. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 17:34, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

There are two other references besides Britannica:

• Richard Tapper. "Shahsevan in Safavid Persia", Bulletin of the School of Oriental and African Studies, University of London, Vol. 37, No. 3, 1974, p. 324.
• Lawrence Davidson, Arthur Goldschmid, "A Concise History of the Middle East", Westview Press, 2006, p. 153.

which recite the fact that Safavid state was proclaimed over Azerbaijan first in 1501. Therefore, since no state called Iran existed immediately prior to 1501 (unless you can prove otherwise) for several centuries, the naming of dynasty as Iranian is rather symbolic and does not reflect the historical identity. The pushing of it in Wikipedia is meant to deny the identity or association of dynasty with Azerbaijan, which is actually disruptive.

But anyways, all of these will go into RfC. Btw, I don't see why contributor would oppose RfC as a way of resolving disputes? Atabəy (talk) 17:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I shall respond to the technical argument per Ed's request below in the Safavid page (I urge Ed to look at it).. However, I do not oppose RfC (comments from 3rd party users such as user:Folantin, but rather I prefer mediation after your ban is served. As per symbolic usage by Britannica,.. sorry that sounds like I do not like it. The top Safavid scholar is Roger Savory who also states in no unclear tems: "RM Savory, Iran under the Safavids (Cambridge University Press, Cambridge, 1980), p. 3. Why is there such confusion about the origins of this important dynasty, which reasserted Iranian identity and established an independent Iranian state after eight and a half centuries of rule by foreign dynasties?". Read Roger Savory. As per the name of the Safavid state, it was Iran when we are discussing an empire of 250 years and their one year rule of part of the empire (Azerbaijan in Iran), is not really something that goes in the introduction as Britannica has put it in the body as well.. Also there are three references to state that during 1501 when Azerbaijan was taken, Safavid king proclaimed himself as Padishah-e Iran (in the talkpage that I shall put again and it has primary evidence support as well from chronicles of that era). However, all of this aside, I do not see why there should be any leniency in terms of the patrol for the user that just broke the violation and has just violated several battle-field items above. Please note the several discrete attacks on other users which is clear manifestation of battle-field mentality above. Thank you --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Time's up

I don't wish to entertain a continuing dispute between Atabəy and Khodadabandeh14 on my user talk. Atabəy, you are getting very near the edge since you added Iran-related material to an article. Unless you come forward immediately with your proposed text of an RfC for Safavid dynasty, I am prepared to decline your unban request with no further ado. Then you will be free to pursue your other appeal options. EdJohnston (talk) 18:02, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Sorry ed, "Very sad that the user feels emboldened now by application of bans on others, it only clarifies his intent" is more of the same battle-field mentality as is the violation patrol. I do not see why wikipedia laws shall not apply.. I am on a trip for next week and rather not edit Wikipedia, however, I know exactly what Atabey will likely say and I shall add a complete response to it on the Safavid page for the nth time..--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:33, 18 May 2011 (UTC) BTW, I rather not edit wikipedia next week, so you may note this if I do not respond for a week. However, Atabey just posted on the safavid talkpage, where-as he should have posted it here and you could have posted it for him in the talkpage. The ban patroll in my opinion should continue to stay. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 18:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Ed, Now that you showed leniency, I ask you to please you take an active part in the discussion and also have the principle WP:RS, WP:OR and WP:synthesis in the background to warn users incase they violate it. --Khodabandeh14 (talk) 19:07, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

RFC

Ed, I initiated an RfC [7]. I did not know on which talk page to put it, so I just put it on the talk page of the subject article. If I need to move it elsewhere, please, let me know. I will add my evidence to RfC later on today. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 18:36, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Ed, I am sorry for posting on your talk page again, but please, let me know whether I can proceed posting my comments under RFC I opened on Talk:Safavid dynasty or not. Khodabandeh14 raised a point above that I cannot do so, but then how do I provide my comments/references to RfC? Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 20:37, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Yes, please continue to participate in the RfC at Talk:Safavid dynasty. I am allowing it in spite of your topic ban. EdJohnston (talk) 20:52, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

I have responded in detail to each point of Atabey in a separate thread [8]. You might wonder why the response is long. Note my long response has to do with the fact that sometimes one needs overwhelming numbers of sources to get some points across that WP:RS sources cannot be ignored. Also most readers in Wikipedia are not expected to know anything about Safavid history. Anyhow, the user has been topic banned from several articles but I will assume good faith. The fact is that with the exception of User:Folantin and User:Kansas Bear, I do not see any long term member who can understand these points. In actuality, readers do not need to understand everything as Wikipedia is about establish RS sources, weight, neutrality, no OR, no syntheis and not really arguing over the contents. Anyhow, I just ask you to keep an eagle eye on the talkpage and behaviour. Also I might take a 1 week break next week (or the check article much less), so my lack of response should not be intrepreted as I have forgotten the article. Thank you--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 22:52, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Just an update, I have asked User:Folantin to mediate. If he does mediation, I hope you keep an eye on. Thank you--Khodabandeh14 (talk) 15:02, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Ed, while I understand the desire to resolve editorial disputes through RfC, a number of concerns appear here. First of all, I agreed to all your points and opened an RFC, I am demonstrating good faith providing only references in support of my opinion without commenting on users, read and listen to everything that the opposite side says, and based on those provided a Proposal section in the RfC. But for some reason, instead of discussing the proposal and observations, the focus in the RFC is for some reason on why I behave certain way or use certain references, accusing me of tendentious editing with words like "he makes an WP:OR that the name Iran was not used by Safavids", "concensus cannot be reached with such an attitude", "I find it completely unacceptable to delete sources such as Roger Savory" when no one actually suggested doing so. Could you please, advise the contributor to at least demonstrate interest in reaching an agreement via RfC?

From my perspective, there is no fundamental disagreement in the proposal that I made so far. The only disagreement is whether "of Iran" or "Iranian" attachments should remain. To justify my point, and listening to the opinion about general Google search, today, I provided Google Books search result, which shows over 5,000 references without word "Iran/Iranian" when referring to Safavid Empire, and only 53 results with inclusion of those. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 21:05, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Please continue to show your patience by not coming here every 10 seconds. If Khodabandeh14 reveals a bad attitude to the RfC, that could play a role if admins have to review the situation again. You can win by behaving better. (And by having better content arguments). Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 21:12, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Poison affair of Palestinian schoolgirls

Just to let you know that I posted to Wikipedia:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Poison affair of Palestinian schoolgirls & User:Westbankfainting before you protected the page.

I am not sure that the page should be protected as I am not sure that the whole "Poison affair of Palestinian schoolgirls" is really a notable event and am still considering sending it to WP:AfD on the grounds of that. Mtking (talk) 00:15, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the pointer to ANI. I'd be surprised if you can convince people this event is not notable. Check the reference list: Time, CS Monitor, New York Times, etc. But getting the article correct won't be a simple matter. If you are considering AfD, why not wait until the protection expires. Thank you, EdJohnston (talk) 00:37, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

As you suggested, I did post a request at WP:RSN. Thanks for your very constructive help and feedback concerning the article. betsythedevine (talk) 03:58, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your follow-up. EdJohnston (talk) 04:22, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

WP:AE#Mibelz

Hi! I would like to inform you that Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus leads a personal campaign against me (vide Mibelz AE request). The problem is that he and some other Polish editors prefer rather Polish than English names (for example: Kraków, not Cracow) in English Wikipedia, and often ignore historical facts which are inconvenient for their point of view. As a scientist, I am interested in truth, not propaganda. -- Warm regards, Mibelz, Ph.D. 13:45, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for your answer. I have written about some Polish editors because of their "national historic policy" in English Wikipedia (i.e. The Rebellion of vogt Albert, and a reaction to the information on vogt Albert - of German origin - and bishop Jan Muskata - of German-Silesian origin). -- Mibelz, 14:39, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

Your answer seems to show you don't understand the problem. See WP:AE#Mibelz#Result concerning Mibelz where I have proposed a revised sanction. Any hint that you understand the gravity of the situation might be enough to avoid the ban. EdJohnston (talk) 18:27, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Article

Ed, as a result of my AE request I was allowed to write the article in my user space. The conditions stated by 2/0 include that the article should be reviewed by at least two administrators. I've chosen you to be one of them because you were the one who declined my request and because you were not helpful in my prior request for help., which means that you are going to be especially strict to my article and me :-) The article is here. May I please ask you to review it, when you have a time, and state your verdict either on the article's talk page or on my talk page? Thank you for your time. --Mbz1 (talk) 02:13, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Replied on your talk. EdJohnston (talk) 03:43, 18 May 2011 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, EdJohnston. You have new messages at Magog the Ogre's talk page.
Message added 03:32, 18 May 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Busy

Hello, I am busy in real life, if there is anything you are wondering over give me opportunity (time) to reply in full. --Supreme Deliciousness (talk) 07:24, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Noted...but

I have noted your message on my talk page. However, can you please also acknowledge Wikipedia:EEML#Editors_restricted where certain editors are required not to interact with me. This does not excuse certain editors running to that AE thread in a most bombastic and incivil way making accusations against myself. Can you please also remind those editors of their restrictions as well, because they too have been banned for breaching it in the past. What's good for the goose. Thanks. --Russavia ^{I'm chanting as we speak} 11:19, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Administrator abuse? At the very least a bit of concern.

On the article Palamism I noted that for some Eastern Orthodox sources that the term is pure West Christian POV. Some EO see it as a fabricated form of attack on Eastern Orthodox theology. Administrator Dbachmann removed that comment [9] Even though I fear retalition I must state that I find this very troubling, that what makes it into articles is what administrators throw their weight behind rather than what representatives of respective positions under a topic actually say on behalf of their community.

Also I do not feel comfortable criticizing administrators here on Wikipedia as there is no way or process or forum in this online project to do that. This is all very time consuming and the administrators edit appear to be to silence certain Eastern Orthodox concerns for what appear to be that administrator's personal reasons which is a very taboo thing to do. Or at least from an ethical perspective one would expect it to be. But again anyone pointing out abuse or their "concerns" is subject to retaliation here on Wikipedia.[10] As it is also that some editors here on Wiki provoke retaliation, as they are protected from policy by administrators. This is the old Nomenklatura.LoveMonkey (talk) 12:54, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I think Dbachmann was acting in the role of an ordinary editor at Palamism, not an admin. If you dislike his change, you are welcome to discuss it with him in the usual way. EdJohnston (talk) 13:48, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

I agree that Dbachmann's edit appears to be acting as an "ordinary editor" and not as an admin. I happen to disagree with his edit so I have reverted it and explained why on the Talk Page. If Dbachmann feels this is an important issue, he can respond on the Talk Page as is appropriate. More collegiality and less suspicion are called for here. Please raise issues on the article Talk Page first before complaining about admin abuse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pseudo-Richard (talk • contribs) 17:00, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Because my edit restrictions are still unclear and I can not comment on articles that are Roman Catholic theology based (i.e. Palamism is Roman Catholic as no Greek or Eastern Theologians from the East use such a term in their works, only Western EO converts or Roman Catholic theologians do). I think it safe to comment on the involved editors talkpage to ensure that I am in the clear. LoveMonkey (talk) 17:39, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

LoveMonkey, if you want to revise the Palamism article why don't you state here the type of change you want to make. Then others can see if they have any concerns. If you are thinking of using particular references, tell us what they are. For what you write here, ignore the restriction for a moment. EdJohnston (talk) 17:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)