Talk:Objectivism

Article Cross Talk

Use of cross-talk page

There doesn't seem to be much use of the Objectivism cross-talk page lately. I'm the only one who has used it since February. Is it still relevant? --RL0919 (talk) 20:41, 5 November 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps not. Although I love it, I have to say it now seems like an esoteric feature. Karbinski (talk) 14:25, 13 November 2012 (UTC)

Original Research Tag

When did this article get tagged for OR? And Why? The tag goes away - I think if it is warranted then the reason or reasons can be articulated here on the talk page. If this is because of the citation needed tag on the NB stuff, it is overkill - plus there is no need for NB biography on a discussion of Objectivism so we can just snip that content. --Karbinski (talk) 22:55, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree. I didn't understand why the tag was added also. BashBrannigan (talk) 02:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)

Pseudophilosophy

Why is this not categorized as Pseudophilosophy? Ayn Rand is rejected by just about each and every philosopher and scholar in academia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.8.149 (talk) 03:29, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Because there are loads of reliable sources describing her as a philosopher. Seriously, we've had this debate a million times; let's not reopen it. TallNapoleon (talk) 04:16, 24 May 2011 (UTC)

Fair enough..

But the criticism section should definitely outweigh the "intellectual impact", which is an absolute piece of nonsense:

"Rand's philosophy has had a significant impact on the work of a range of notable academics and scholars, including: Martin Anderson,[128] Petr Beckmann,[129] Andrew Bernstein,[130] Harry Binswanger,[131] Nathaniel Branden,[132] Edith Efron,[133] Allan Gotthelf,[134] Robert Hessen,[135] Erika Holzer,[136] John Hospers,[137] David Kelley,[138] James G. Lennox,[139] Liu Junning,[140] Edwin A. Locke,[141] Tibor Machan,[142] Charles Murray,[143] Leonard Peikoff,[144] Douglas B. Rasmussen,[145] George Reisman,[146] John Ridpath,[147] Murray Rothbard,[148] Peter Schwartz,[149] Chris Matthew Sciabarra,[150] George H. Smith,[151] Tara Smith,[152] and Walter E. Williams.[153] In recent decades, annual conferences have been conducted featuring lectures by such academics and scholars, highlighting their recent work.[154]"

These are the notable academics and scholars? Lets go through the first ten, shall we?

---

Martin Anderson - Acquaintance of Ayn Rand

Petr Beckmann - Acquaintance of Ayn Rand

Andrew Bernstein - Author of "conservative manifesto"

Harry Binswanger - long time associate of Ayn Rand

Nathaniel Branden - Former romantic partner of Ayn Rand

Edith Efron - Part of Ayn Rand's circle, and contributor to her magazine

Allan Gotthelf - Heavy involvement inwith Ayn Rand and the Objectivist movement

Robert Hessen - A stub of an article, from the author of something called "In Defense of the Corporation"

Erika Holzer - Member of Ayn Rand's inner circle

John Hospers - Personal friend of Ayn Rand

---

Comes off pretty desperate, no? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.8.149 (talk) 18:57, 28 May 2011 (UTC)

--

Atlas Shrugged was, according to a poll, the second most influential book to the American people after the Bible. I'm super serial! Also, say what you will about the tenets of National Socialism; at least it's an ethos!

Also, Bob Barr, Steve Ditko, Terry Goodkind, Alan Greenspan, Anton LaVey, Stefan Molyneux, Ron Paul, Neil Peart, Murray Rothbard, Paul Ryan, Kay Nolte Smith, L. Neil Smith, John Stossel, Clarence Thomas, and Jimmy Wales.

Byelf2007 (talk) 31 May 2011

So the first ten "notable academics and scholars" are just a bunch of acquaintances of Ayn Rand.

Lets go through the next batch of 10:

---

Bob Barr - Libertarian Republican

Steve Ditko - Comic Book Artist

Terry Goodkind - Fantasy writer

Alan Greenspan - The FIRST person listed that actually has any merit!

Anton LaVey - Founder of "Church of Satan" and notable occultist (excellent inclusion!)

Stefan Molyneux - Libertarian blogger

Ron Paul - Libertarian promoter (who hates the government, yet has been IN government since the 70's), holds the most conservative voting record of any member of Congress since 1937.

Neil Peart - A drummer (from a GREAT band, I'll give him that) but who *actually* identifies as a LEFT leaning libertarian (Ayn Rand is far right libertarian) .. this shouldn't even be here.

Murray Rothbard - Free Market advocate who argued that taxation represents coercive theft on a grand scale .. also a student of Ludwig von Mises - interesting how Rand disciples dismiss academics for being trained by their "leftist" professors.. but when you study under a RIGHT-wing professor, all of the sudden, they become notable scholars!

and then we stop at Paul Ryan.. the somewhat-far (I wouldn't say extreme, although some would) right-wing economist who plans to end medicare (our most popular social program, even when you poll conservatives) as we know it, while of course lowering taxes on the wealthiest.. without even balancing the budget for decades anyway

---

This IS influence, but its not influence on "notable" scholars and academics in any way shape or form. That part of the description should be taken down, not these list of names itself.. it is a clearly pathetic attempt to "puff up" her impact and is way outside what should be considered a neutral POV.

I mean look at the list.. these are ALL people who were *already* predisposed to her style of thinking.. and used her work as a stepping stone towards right-wing political and economic positions.

Also, what kind of measure of influence is a list that the Bible is listed #1 on? Even Ayn Rand condemned organized religion.. so I don't understand how you thought that would strengthen your argument. I remember that the Modern Library did a user top 100 and besides two books and the entire top 10 was full of Ayn Rand and L Ron Hubbard books. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.187.8.149 (talk) 22:19, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

reply:

Your (unsigned) response is so bad, it's difficult to know where to begin. I'll give this my best shot.

"This IS influence, but its not influence on "notable" scholars and academics in any way shape or form."

Notable by what standard?

"I mean look at the list.. these are ALL people who were *already* predisposed to her style of thinking."

Are you sure? Or, is it possible they changed their beliefs because of her writing?

"Also, what kind of measure of influence is a list that the Bible is listed #1 on?"

It was a poll that asked Americans what book had the biggest impact on their way of thinking.

"Even Ayn Rand condemned organized religion.. so I don't understand how you thought that would strengthen your argument."

Well, it's the second-most influential book according to the American people. So, clearly, her writings are influential (The Fountainhead also got a respectable showing, making her combined total about the same as the Bible. Do you think the Bible is influential?).

Also, how is it relevant that Rand condemned religion? Let me see if I understand you. I think you're saying:

(a) Ayn Rand condemned religion

(b) A poll that asked Americans what book had the biggest impact on their way of thinking had the Bible at the #1 spot.

(c) The same poll showed that Rand's book Atlas Shrugged was #2.

(d) Therefore, Rand's works aren't substantially influential to the American people.

Huh?

"I remember that the Modern Library did a user top 100 and besides two books and the entire top 10 was full of Ayn Rand and L Ron Hubbard books."

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

By the way, the poll I'm talking about was conducted by the Library of Congress, not "the modern library," whatever that is.

Byelf2007 (talk) 3 June 2011

If you have a point, make it. Otherwise, see WP:NOTFORUM. TallNapoleon (talk) 04:25, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

> The point is, you have both failed to explain how personal friends, comic book writers, drummers, and libertarian bloggers qualify as "notable scholars and academics".

Sure you are doing the Rand movement a great service here, but its shit like this why people think Wikipedia is pure garbage compared to real encyclopedias like Britannica.. especially when you come to these pages and see that the people who defend these articles are so deprived, they have never even heard of the modern library! I mean seriously, have you never read a book in your life? Even upon graduating high school, I must have read a dozen different books with their logo on it..

Britannica will always be the trusted choice in encyclopedias because unlike Wikipedia you will NEVER find the head of a "Church of Satan" cult being passed off as a notable scholar.. The amount of intellectual dishonesty on Wikipedia is getting frightening.. I've got my eye on the Islamic Golden Age as well, which is unrepairable because of a similar problem. The people editing the articles are nothing but apologists who show no concern for academic integrity.

reply:

" The point is, you have both failed to explain how personal friends, comic book writers, drummers, and libertarian bloggers qualify as "notable scholars and academics". "

I don't care about that. Rand's books are influential to about 15% of the US population. Enough said.

Byelf2007 (talk) 5 June 2011

So you DONT care about academic integrity. I get it. Thanks for the confirmation though.

Your argument comes down to majority rules? The more mainstream the appeal = the *BETTER* the influence to you? Has it never occurred to you that some types of influence could be BAD, not good?

About a billion and a half Muslims find the Quran to be influential. According to your logic, if your work is influential to 15% of a population, you have achieved great influence.

Well, 97% of those in Iraq are Muslim. Does that mean Iraq is the scholarly capital of the world just because a particular book had such tremendous mainstream influence? Welll.. according to your perverted twist on logic, yes.. it would! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.228.3.70 (talk) 17:27, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

--24.228.3.70 (talk) 17:28, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

reply:

"So you DONT care about academic integrity. I get it. Thanks for the confirmation though."

No, I simply don't care how influential Rand was to scholars with respect to this article, just the general public.

"Your argument comes down to majority rules? The more mainstream the appeal = the *BETTER* the influence to you? Has it never occurred to you that some types of influence could be BAD, not good?"

No, I'm arguing that it's influential, whether good or bad. I never said that which is influential is good.

"Well, 97% of those in Iraq are Muslim. Does that mean Iraq is the scholarly capital of the world just because a particular book had such tremendous mainstream influence? Welll.. according to your perverted twist on logic, yes.. it would!"

This assessment of my views doesn't make any sense. Christianity is popular in America, so by your (incorrect) assessment of my views on influence, America must be the scholarly capital of the world as well, but, then, Islam is popular in Iraq, too. They can't both be the "scholarly capital of the world"...

Byelf2007 (talk) 6 June 2011

>>>>>>>

"No, I simply don't care how influential Rand was to scholars with respect to this article, just the general public."

Well that's you. My whole point is that average joes do not have the authority that rhode scholars do.

"No, I'm arguing that it's influential, whether good or bad. I never said that which is influential is good."

Which I already stated myself, several times in fact. Ayn Rand had tremendous influence, but only in the libertarian scene.. this is not the same influence that, say Aristotle had which continues to influence multiple fields in academia to this day. Guys like John Locke.. these are examples of tremendously influential philosophers.. Guys like Immanuel Kant (despite Ayn Rands inability to grasp his ideas) synthesized two competing schools of philosophical thought and opened up doors for virtually every philosopher to come. Yet Rand basically asked 20th century philosophers to abandon all that progress, resulting in her becoming an outcast in the philosophy community.. quite similar to the way a creationist would be an outcast in today's scientific community.

But you argued that since 15% of Americans found Rand's work influential, that is "all that maters". NO, that is not all that matters. I can point out multiple countries that have much higher rates of adherence to a certain book.

in Iraq, 97% of people consider the Quran the most influential book. Iran, 98%. Turkey, 97%. Yemen, 98%..

I could go on.. point being your method (percent of adherence / total population = influence) fails to measure the QUALITY of the influence and only measures quantity. So what good is it? One could argue these people were "influenced" but I would argue were simply "manipulated" and cleverly persuaded into believing something.

But I see that the list I initially brought into question has already been tidied up in the article, so that is much appreciated.

>>>>>>>>> --24.187.8.149 (talk) 00:50, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Notable Scholars and Academics Paragraph

Lets discuss this paragraph, if it needs modification or removal... --Karbinski (talk) 09:48, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

If any of the given citations are direct evidence that the individual was influenced, we need to improve the citation or drop the entry. High quality original research is still OR. To claim any particular individual's entry is *properly* sourced, we need a reliable secondary source that reports how that individual is influenced, *not* evidence the OR is true. An influence being discussed in a secondary source establishes notability - and, any debates on notability should be based on the context and quality of the source. --Karbinski (talk) 10:03, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

^ "This user is an advocate of Objectivism and considers Ayn Rand an intellectual hero." ^

This page needs to be edited by neutral parties who are interested in making wikipedia more accurate and legitimate.. NOT Ayn Rand disciples who are only interested in glorifying her legacy. Look at this article's history.. it is plagued by Ayn Rand apologists such as yourself and the guy I was attempting to reason with earlier.. editing out ALL the criticisms and inflating the living shit out of the intellectual impact section. At one point in time, the criticism was just a single paragraph based on a single criticism! I'm sure you guys were thrilled, and I'm sure if you had your way there wouldn't be a single mention of anything negative, would there?

Ayn Rand had influence.. there is NO denying that. But she is rejected by just about everyone in academia and the article should reflect this, not attempt to sweep it under the rug. Just about each and every philosophy department worldwide has rejected her ideas. Her work is a laughing stock amongst intellectual circles throughout the globe.. Most *real* encyclopedias entries even give you the impression that she was no more than a pseudo-philosopher.. and I bet I can find college kids in introductory philosophy courses that can obliterate her theories.

Yet the apologists here insist on fabricating this article to appear that Ayn Rand's philosophy is infallible as the word of god, and that it had all this tremendous impact on "scholars" everywhere. In reality, her influence was strictly limited to mostly right-leaning libertarians who were seeking justification for acting purely out of greed and selfishness.

"Please don't post your personal philosophical views on my talk page - I'm not interested" - Ayn Rand Apologist Extraordinaire, Karbinski.

Typical Rand disciple. Uninterested in philosophy in general.. defensive and hostile towards those who request you defend your position.. and it all ends the same way with you people when you are backed into a corner. You either stop responding entirely, or resort to the old "AYN RAND SAID SO, SO THERE!!"

Kudos to the that Philogo fellow for putting a well deserved tag of shame on your discussion page. --24.228.3.70 (talk) 17:00, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

This page is for discussing improvements to the article, not for discussing other editors. Please focus your comments on that and refrain from personal attacks. This list of "notable academics and scholars" needs to be reviewed and poorly sourced entries removed. As far as the general tone of the section, it starts off with an explicit statement that "Academic philosophers have generally dismissed Rand's ideas and have marginalized her philosophy." This is an accurate and well-sourced summary and the rest of the section can and should be generally consistent with it while still acknowledging that she does have a small following within academia. Constructive suggestions for how to revise the article are welcomed. --RL0919 (talk) 17:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

But the editors are the MAIN problem here. Just take a quick look at this article's history. Over and over again, the frequent editors (mostly all proud Ayn Rand enthusiasts) attempt to fluff up the positive aspects while removing negative aspects. I urge everybody to compare even a few histories of this article and see for yourself just how many attempts were made to minimize criticism.

Yes, that section begins by stating that Ayn is rejected by academia, but it is far from consistent after that. Especially since it fails to elaborate at all, as in why and to what extent her ideas are rejected in academia. Even in the criticism section, this kind of stuff is barely addressed. Following that initial claim, the article almost attempts to refute itself, by going on and on about all these "notable academics and scholars" that on closer inspection.. include just about anybody who at one point in time claimed they liked her book. --24.187.8.149 (talk) 19:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

And your proposed improvements to the article are ... what exactly? Just complaining that people who like Rand's ideas edit the article isn't a solution for anything. People often edit on topics that they have a personal interest in, and that isn't going to stop happening. Instead of soapboxing, try proposing specific changes, or making changes yourself (if you can do so in a neutral fashion). --RL0919 (talk) 20:05, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Any more personal attacks or off-topic postings and I'm going to take this to WP:ANI. I would like to remind both Byelf and our IP that this page is under an Arbitration Committee ruling which will be enforced. IP, you have made no constructive suggestions as to how the article could be improved. Instead you have chosen to come here and fling insults. I strongly recommend that you suggest actual changes that you would like to see made to the article, or that you leave. TallNapoleon (talk) 20:55, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

Now this delicious piece of irony. Libertarian activists threatening to resort to Wikipedia's form of government intervention.. in order to silence dissent.. the very creator of this committee doesn't consider himself a self-avowed "Objectivist to the core" does he?

How am I supposed to work with people that outright refuse to defend their positions? Especially when they already have a long history of trimming the criticism section?

I do appreciate the editing that has already made progress though.. but I fear there is no way to expand the criticism section without hurting feelings.

--24.187.8.149 (talk) 00:57, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Nice try, but I'm neither a libertarian nor an objectivist. Reported to ANI. TallNapoleon (talk) 03:22, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

How to work with people: state your goal. For example, if there is a paragraph you want to discussed, create a new section and invite discussion. --Karbinski (talk) 09:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Notable Scholars and Academics Paragraph (Take Two)

Lets discuss this paragraph, if it needs modification or removal... --Karbinski (talk) 09:48, 6 June 2011 (UTC)

If any of the given citations are direct evidence that the individual was influenced, we need to improve the citation or drop the entry. High quality original research is still OR. To claim any particular individual's entry is *properly* sourced, we need a reliable secondary source that reports how that individual is influenced, *not* evidence the OR is true. An influence being discussed in a secondary source establishes notability - and, any debates on notability should be based on the context and quality of the source. --Karbinski (talk) 09:33, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Is your concern that it is a list of Wikipedia entries without outside references? Does this break the rule of Wikipedia referencing itself? Are you concerned that there is no contextual foundation for a list? I seem to remember Barbara Branden's book had a list of people influenced by Rand. It's reasonable to debate the inclusion of this list, but a debate about whether Rand had influence is absurd. There's a story in Greenspan's biography (p.323) of the time he was approached by Putin's chief economic advisor who asked him if he'd be willing to discuss Ayn Rand with some of his friends on his next trip to Russian. BashBrannigan (talk) 23:44, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

If Rand's influence on them is well-sourced in their own articles, then they can stay, I think. Also, I don't think anyone here is denying Rand had substantial influence; the question is how big the list should be, and also one of WP:WEIGHT and proper sourcing. TallNapoleon (talk) 00:56, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Indeed, I'm not challenging the facts, nor their references. I'm interested in trimming the list down to only those where the influence is discussed in secondary sources, apart from just reporting that individual X was influenced. I'd like to be specific, but I don't, at least not yet, have access to the sources in use. If we are just referencing other lists, then we can leave it to the references to list things. --Karbinski (talk) 08:10, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Criticism

It is currently bouncing around.

Did we have consensus that it should be integrated where possible? I ask as I think that change came about in the midst of other efforts. Personally I think BigK HeX's last version is the way to go (integrated where possible). --Karbinski (talk) 10:09, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't care whether the criticism is integrated or in a distinct section. And despite the periodic invocation of WP:STRUCTURE, there isn't any firm policy one way or the other. (Read the section that shortcut links to. It explicitly says, "specific article structures are not, as a rule, prohibited".) But I would like there to be some firm consensus about this particular article that we can follow, so it doesn't keep going back and forth. If we can come to that among just the regular editors here, great. If not, then we should do an RfC. --RL0919 (talk) 13:32, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

NPOV seems pretty clear that it is preferable to integrate criticisms, in the policy on structure.

Really, I could probably go further to say that NPOV likely demands even more due to WP:UNDUE, since Objectivism itself is a minority viewpoint largely dismissed within the relevant field (philosophy). A more rigorous approach to Wikipedia policy would prompt editors to be more inclined to note contentions with mainstream philosophers ["these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view"].

On a slightly related note ... I haven't scanned the page closely, but even in my casual editing I found multiple Randian-style assertions presented as uncontested fact. But more importantly, academic analysis of Objectivist assertions seems lacking, which would violate WP:UNDUE. BigK HeX (talk) 19:21, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Majority and Minority view points within the context of the topic at hand - BigK Hex. This is not the Philosophy article, where a minority view point like Objectivism receives little or no coverage. This is the Objectivism (Ayn Rand) article, the topic to be reported on is what is notable about Objectivism. I'm not even aware of any minority / majority view points on the subject - what Objectivism is, is uncontroversial. --Karbinski (talk) 11:02, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

Yeah... you would cover Objectivism in the Objectivism article. The point is that WP:UNDUE would demand that mainstream regard for Objectivism be noted, and additionally that any notable mainstream analyses of Objectivist assertions be noted where relevant. ["these pages should still make appropriate reference to the majority viewpoint wherever relevant and must not represent content strictly from the perspective of the minority view"] BigK HeX (talk) 14:37, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

When reporting how Objectivism has influenced or does influence (that is, how it is regarded), it needs to be NPOV, verifiable, and notable - no argument there. --Karbinski (talk) 16:06, 11 June 2011 (UTC)

reply: Sorry about that. You put "NP:Structure" instead of "WP"

byelf2007 (talk) 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Words and their meaning

I thought it might be a good idea to open a discussion of a recent edit by Zenomax, June 18. "Principal" was changed to "belief" and "man's mind" was changed to "human mind". I'm not certain it was improper to make these changes, but I think it's worth discussing.

First, The editor gave as a reason that "man's" was sexist, which I don't consider a proper reason as it's an opinion. Others may believe objections to "man" are just the result of trendy political correctness. Far as I know, "man" still means "human". I think the question isn't whether Wikipedia should bend to PCness... it shouldn't... but whether "man" is no longer part of the common vernacular for "humanity".

Second, changing "principal" to "belief" is a different issue. It seems like the effect of this edit is to change the meaning: belief implies "opinion", while "principal" implies a choice made as to import. Since this is an article about objectivism, it can't be up to an editor to decide between its being a "principal" or a "belief". The question in this case is whether there is a cite for Objectivism using "principal". If so, than "principal" should stay.

Opinions?BashBrannigan (talk) 16:41, 18 June 2011 (UTC)

On man vs. human- The edit first blanks out "man's widest ... ideas" to just "... ideas", this is a destruction of what is being reported. Content and accuracy should not be sacrificed to the opinion of "using the word man to refer to humankind is sexist". Later in the same edit, the people(viewers of the art piece) become the subject displacing the work of art as the focus of Rand's view - again wiping out content in favor of a PC opinion. --Karbinski (talk) 08:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

On principle vs. belief - I think the intention was to qualify the principle as being of the Objectivist view against taking it for granted that the stated principle is indeed true. Fair enough if that was the intent, but the edit does alter the meaning slightly. I think idea would be more neutral than belief. --Karbinski (talk) 08:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

She/he was Bold, I'm going to Revert (the man vs human part), Discussion is already under way (WP:BRD). --Karbinski (talk) 08:17, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure how you can PC the bit on the purpose of a work of art without butchering its meaning, it is Rand's view that is being reported here, and her view may not be communicable in PC terms. Would a direct quotation solve the problem? Perhaps the best solution is to resist attempts to straight-jacket the article into PC language? --Karbinski (talk) 08:35, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

If we aren't quoting Rand, we should make an effort to use gender-neutral language, which is the correct academic convention nowadays. "Human", "person", "people", etc are all perfectly serviceable words. TallNapoleon (talk) 20:01, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Taxation and Copyright/Patents

The criticism of x is irrelevant without first reporting on x, and where x=patent law or taxation in a fully free society => its not important detail within an overview of Rand's politics. The article, appropriately does not elaborate on these areas of applied Objectivism. If it did, then criticism's of those areas of applied Objectivism would be relevant. --Karbinski (talk) 10:53, 30 June 2011 (UTC)

Uh... who deemed it as "not important"? Critics seem to see Rand's support of government-enforced monopolies as pretty significant. BigK HeX (talk) 18:37, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

The material is sourced and seems to have a fair parity of notability in third party reviews of Objectivism. I'm reincorporating it. BigK HeX (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

I think the correct solution in this case might be to mention Rand's defense of copyright law beforehand, rather than remove the criticism. TallNapoleon (talk) 21:30, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

The lack of importance should be self-evident from a review of the section:

-Derived from Ethics and epistemology is the non-initiation of force (two paragraphs) -Ellaboration on Individual Rights -Necessity of Government and Objective Rule of Law -Capitalism as a moral system -Objectivism in the political landscape What you have with taxation and patents are details - and adding them to the article is too much detail. The existence of sources is meaningless here, VOS for taxation and CUI for patents if nothing else. Critics think its important? - there isn't even any criticism of the taxation bit. As for the critic - singular - of the patent bit, that critic took the effort to criticize doesn't speak to the importance of this detail. If there is criticism out there, and I'm sure there is, of what was said about numbers in ITOE, we don't rush to clutter the epistemology section with first the unecessary detail of the Objectivist view on numbers and then the unecessary detail of what a critic had to say about it. --Karbinski (talk) 23:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

As per WP:BRD, the bearden of proof lies with those wanting to keep the content. How are these details important for the article? That critics did what critics do does not answer the question. --Karbinski (talk) 23:31, 1 July 2011 (UTC)

Why is it important to the article? Because it's an article explaining Objectivism. Both taxes and IP are a part of Objectivism. Why does it matter if we can't find criticisms of certain parts of Objectivism Byelf2007 (talk) 1 July 2011

What we ought to be looking for is secondary sources, whether critical or not, that discuss these subjects. That is the standard Wikipedia approach to determining whether a topic is significant enough to include. If numerous sources discussing Objectivism treat these as important aspects, then we should discuss them here. If they are rarely mentioned, then we can ignore them -- including them would be giving undue weight to minor topics. Intellectual property (patents and copyrights) and taxation are two different subjects, so we should address them individually. I've investigated intellectual property but haven't gotten to taxation yet, so I'll put the results in a subsection below. Feel free to add information about your own research there. --RL0919 (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

On the editing and BRD, I'll note that the material in question has been in the article since at least August of last year ([1]) and has since been specifically involved in a number of edits (some from me personally). Of course, that doesn't mean its inclusion is justified, but I think that does have a bearing on BOLD-REVERT-DISCUSS. BigK HeX (talk) 18:09, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

Sources about Objectivist views on intellectual property

There is of course too much material about Objectivism to read or re-read every source word-by-word, so I looked for related index terms (copyright, patent, intellectual property) and skimmed sections that seemed most likely to contain discussion of that topic. So if I say a work doesn't contain discussion of it, that doesn't preclude a passing mention or footnote that I missed. I found that the following overviews of Objectivism contain no apparent discussion of intellectual property: Objectivism: The Philosophy of Ayn Rand (Peikoff), The Vision of Ayn Rand (Branden), Ayn Rand: The Russian Radical (Sciabarra), On Ayn Rand (Gotthelf), Ayn Rand (Machan), Objectivism in One Lesson (Bernstein), The Philosophic Thought of Ayn Rand (Den Uyl and Rasmussen), and With Charity Toward None (O'Neill). I also looked at sections/essays on Rand's ideas in some more general works, none of which discuss her views on intellectual property: On Classical Liberalism and Libertarianism (Barry), Philosophers of Capitalism (Younkins), The Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, and The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. Only by turning to books devoted to discussing Objectivist political and ethical views was I able to find any discussion of this topic: Moral Rights and Political Freedom (Smith), A Life of One's Own (Kelley), and The Capitalist Manifesto (Bernstein) do not discuss intellectual property, but there is a section about it in Then Athena Said (Touchstone). If you were to shrink those proportions (a few pages among thousands of pages of material) to the scale of our article (currently less than 6000 words, which is reasonable for an encyclopedia article), the result is that we would not be discussing it. --RL0919 (talk) 13:51, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

That's interesting research but that list is skewed pretty heavily towards fairly pro-Rand POV sources. That is harldly a representation of objective 3rd party academic critiques. BigK HeX (talk) 19:24, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

How exactly is Objectivism's take on patent law (or taxation) an issue of pro/anti POV? I'm pretty sure everyone is agreed Rand wrote the essays she wrote, and meant what she wrote. The burden of proof rests upon those wanting to include the detail - how is this content an encyclopedic report on what the secondary sources give weight to? --Karbinski (talk) 20:42, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

See Rand's "Patent's and Copyrights" in "Capitalism: The Unknown Ideal" and "Government Financing on a Free Society" in "The Virtue of Selfishness"; do other people write about this much? No? Does it matter? No. It's a part of Objectivism. Therefore, it needs to be included in this article. The "secondary source" argument would apply to whether or not there should be an Objectivism article at all. But, while I'm at it:

• http://www.aynrandstudies.com/jars/archives/jars1-1/jars1_1lsechrest.pdf
• http://www.economist.com/blogs/democracyinamerica/2011/04/taxes_and_government
• http://mises.org/daily/4848
• http://mises.org/daily/5025/The-Fight-against-Intellectual-Property
• http://mises.org/journals/jls/15_2/15_2_1.pdf

byelf2007 (talk) 2 July 2011

Byelf2007, if "it's a part of Objectivism" were sufficient to justify inclusion, then this article would be the size of a book. The point is not that there are no sources at all, but rather that we are expected to keep things in proportion for an encyclopedia article. If you are going to cite a small number of articles as justification for inclusion, then you need to balance that against the overall volume of material about Objectivism. Rand wrote one essay about patents and copyrights, out of over 100 essays, and she isn't the only author of material about Objectivism. This is why I turned to the coverage given in overview works. If Leonard Peikoff did not think the Objectivist view on intellectual property was a significant enough topic to cover in his 400+ page book presenting Objectivism, then that's a clue to what a much shorter encyclopedia article should contain. That Branden, Sciabarra, Gotthelf, Machan, etc., made similar judgments, makes it easy to see what experts think the relative importance of the topic is. --RL0919 (talk) 15:50, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

RL0919, You claim that if our article comprehensively covered Objectivism, is would be the size of a book. This is ridiculous. It's like 95% comprehensive already. Peikoff's book includes a lot of "And other people say this, and here's why it's wrong". Objectivism is a philosophy. Therefore, it covers what the nature of reality is, what the nature of knowledge is, what the nature of values are, and how people should express those values. If we covered all of Objectivism, we wouldn't have an article the size of a book--we would have an article slightly bigger than how big it would be if the info we're debating were included. The information we have on metaphysics, epistemology, and ethics is complete. We don't need to have every statement Rand made on how a country should work, because philosophy only pertains to the "big" questions. However, she said you shouldn't be allowed to build a dynamite factory in a crowded area, because you're increasing the risk of harm to others. Should we include that? I think so, but I think it's perhaps a little too specific, so maybe we shouldn't include that. But the question of whether or not there should be TAXES is an incredibly important question with respect to politics, obviously. We don't need 3 paragraphs on it. We can just mention Rand opposed taxes because she saw it as an initiation force, because it obviously is. As for IP, not only is whether or not ideas can be property another fundamental political question, but Rand believed that ALL property is fundamentally intellectual. Therefore, if we don't have her views on IP in this article, then we shouldn't have anything about property in it. Do you think Rand's views on property are important enough to put in an Objectivism article? "Rand wrote one essay about patents and copyrights, out of over 100 essays" So what? Her views on Apollo 11 aren't a part of Objectivism. Her views on taxes certainly are. "and she isn't the only author of material about Objectivism" So what? It's her philosophy. Her views are all that count when we talk about what her philosophy is. "If Leonard Peikoff did not think the Objectivist view on intellectual property was a significant enough topic to cover in his 400+ page book presenting Objectivism, then that's a clue to what a much shorter encyclopedia article should contain." So your argument is "If Peikoff didn't include it in his book, we probably shouldn't include it in our article". Why? Peikoff should've included it in his book if he wanted it to be a comprehensive explanation of the philosophy (which is how it was promoted). Just because he didn't doesn't mean we should lower ourselves down to his level. How about we actually explain the philosophy comprehensively (or at least its essential points, and what counts as property should count, so that covers taxes and IP). We just need a couple more paragraphs, not 400 more pages. byelf2007 (talk) 3 July 2011

You are fundamentally missing the point: Wikipedia articles are supposed to focus on what is considered important by the outside sources that cover a topic, not what we personally believe is important. That's why what Peikoff and all the others did or did not choose to include is relevant. All this argument for why you believe this or that is important has zero basis in Wikipedia policy. --RL0919 (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Even so, there are plenty of outside sources which cover these issues. How are these issues then not notable by wikipedia standards? I can go ahead and find more outside sources if you like. byelf2007 (talk) 4 July 2011

BigK HeX, I focused mostly on overview/summary works because I wanted to understand the relative attention given the topic within overall presentations of Objectivism. Many such works written to date have been from Objectivists or sympathizers, but I can't control that. If there are other works that you believe are relevant in this circumstance, feel free to present your own research findings or at least name the additional works so that others could attempt to review them for discussions of intellectual property. (And for what it is worth, I have no pre-established preference for whether this topic is discussed in the article or not. I'm just presenting the result I found in the literature and the natural conclusion that follows from that within Wikipedia policy.) --RL0919 (talk) 15:50, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

I'm fairly neutral on inclusion, though I suspect that opinion on Rand's stance WRT patents is seen as significant. I was just observing that if we are sampling from the literature that it's probably better to stick to more objective assessments (and almost certainly avoid giving much weight to those who may come off as near-sycophants like Peikoff). BigK HeX (talk) 17:54, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

If you have sources that show this significance, please let's bring them forth. As to what literature should be reviewed, I did not include or exclude anything based on its POV, nor would I support a practice of refusing to consider a source on such a basis. But in this case it really makes no difference whether you look at supporters or critics, because both are aligned in saying little about Rand's views on IP. --RL0919 (talk) 00:29, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

Should we include that? I think so, but I think it's perhaps a little too specific, so maybe we shouldn't include that.

User:byelf2007

Byelf2007's consideration here for a 3rd item, is the core question for both taxation and patent law. I propose we look to the community for guidance.

What we ought to be looking for is secondary sources, whether critical or not, that discuss these subjects. That is the standard Wikipedia approach to determining whether a topic is significant enough to include. If numerous sources discussing Objectivism treat these as important aspects, then we should discuss them here. If they are rarely mentioned, then we can ignore them -- including them would be giving undue weight to minor topics.

User:RL0919

And there, RL0919 has pretty much covered it. Defer to the amount of coverage given by secondary sources that share the articles topic, Objectivism. Not research and/or opinion devoted to the specific in question.

I think there are ways to integrate the content concisely and with great brevity - as examples attached to the existing text or find quotes for quote boxes - that avoid giving undue weight - something stand-alone sentences and paragraphs does not achieve. --Karbinski (talk) 17:58, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Is that more what you had in mind... I think that in a paragraph that discusses racism, affirmative action, I should source it still but it is important I think. Crazynas ^t 02:38, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

That is certainly closer to the brevity I think it deserves. I looked for a better place to hook it in - where the context enables even greater brevity by omitting the reason (state sponsored theft) - but found none. I wouldn't mind trying a quote box as an alternative (I'll edit later if no one else proposes something), but if it doesn't work out - the only hair left to split is we have two sentences in a row that start with "Rand holds...". --Karbinski (talk) 14:57, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Now we've just messed up the end of the section, where the sub-topic is Objectivism in the current political landscape. The taxation bit can perhaps be saved by moving it to a quote box. While something on Intellectual Property may be appropriate, the legal issue of patent law and on top of that criticism, is too much. The reader is being given an overview, and then boom - First-to-file is moral - no it isn't - her views on anti-trust are confusing. Technical concerns of undue weight left aside, its just poor quality and breaks the flow. First-to-file and antitrust are not the stuff of a philosophical overview. What has been added to the article is: Rand considered X moral, critic Y disagrees where X is extremely specific. The issue is not even should IP be protected by the state, not even if there should be patents, its the how patents should be implemented. Its not overview material. Antitrust is totally from left field, and the criticism is that its confusing - one might ask confusing how? - but then again the reader has been given no information on what Rand had to say about antitrust laws. This is all just blades of grass in the forest - no different than taking a concept, any concept discussed by Rand in detail in terms of her theory of concepts, and plugging it into the epistemology section - yes Rand wrote it, yes its part of Objectivism, yes critics responded --> no it does not belong in the article. Further reading is expected if the wikipedia reader wants to delve into the topic further. --Karbinski (talk) 10:45, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

More content may be appropriate to cover IP, but with a new starting point in relation to property rights - not patent and copywrite law. --Karbinski (talk) 10:45, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Karbinski, I agree that the criticism is an unnecessary detail, however now we need a reference for Rand's views on IP (which I still think deserve at least a sentence), I restructured those two para to make thing's I hope, flow better. Crazynas ^t 17:56, 7 July 2011 (UTC)

Taxation and IP cont'd

Taxation: How about the quote box I added? My own answer is that it makes an interesting detail (despite lacking importance in an overview) --Karbinski (talk) 14:02, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Style questions: 1. Should quote boxes have quotation marks around the quote? 2. With the source given for each quote, should a cite be given, either way - do we need to be consistent? --Karbinski (talk) 14:02, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

IP/patents: We have cut it in half, but I still want to move it away from first-to-file and towards IP being the root of property rights. I'll try to contribute something later. --Karbinski (talk) 14:02, 8 July 2011 (UTC)