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This is an old revision of this page, as edited by TexasBruin (talk | contribs) at 21:09, 12 September 2011 (→‎A plausible clarification of Umami: new section). The present address (URL) is a permanent link to this revision, which may differ significantly from the current revision.

Page move

I'm moving this page to Umami because Umami is the much more commonly used spelling. It gets 23,200 google hits and Umame gets only 917 [1] Nohat 02:11, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)

It also doesn't say much for the spelling "umame" for the fact that 8 of the top 10 google hits for it are Wikipedia or Wikipedia mirrors. [2] Nohat 03:56, 2004 Mar 22 (UTC)

ikeda-sensei

I agree with other posts on this page that "savoriness" should be the page name. Notwithstanding, I don't understand the first paragraph's emphasis on the use of kana for "umami". I've not read Ikeda-sensei's white paper wherein the term was coined, but i can guarantee that 甘み and　甘味 are commonly-used orthographies to render "umami", meaning the savory taste of glutamates, with kanzi. "Umai", the stem from which the compound word "umami" is drawn, can be spelt many different ways, so the assertion that kanzi cannot be used for the "uma" in "umami", because 旨味 (also read "umami") has a different meaning than the flavour, is incorrect. The text should be changed to delete the unnecessary introductory plug for Ikeda-sensei, and the Japanese rendering should be updated to reflect the commonly-used all-kanzi rendering of "umami", 甘味. It is simply mistaken to say that only うま味 can be used. 74.192.195.94 (talk) 08:52, 7 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Serious problems

There are several problems with this article. It is more confusing than informative but the first "major" problem is a drive to replace common words with less common, relatively new, and self proclaimed "scientific" words. The article states, "the term Umami was officially recognized as the scientific term to describe the taste of glutamates and nucleotides".
Savory (Am-E) and Savoury (Br-E) redirects to an unnecessary disambiguation page that includes; "Savoriness (a type of taste)", that redirects to this article. Umami is a scientific name that the general population will have no idea about but the lead states, " popularly referred to as savoriness". Popularly referred to by whom? Certainly not the general population in the United States and possibly British countries. Savory is a very common word in the US and a redirect, be it an attempt at a push to further a word or some other reason, is not acceptable. According to the article the definition of the Japanese loanword umami would be; "meaning "pleasant savory taste.". This is an English encyclopedia and in English a good word for savory is---savory. It does not require any extra words and certainly not a word that includes in the definition the word it is intended to replace. I do not believe that any that speak the English language needs a redirect to a Japanese loanword to explain or define our words. There is a reference, the Japanese Patent office, from 2002 that referred to umami as delicious. A problem is that there are words (as adjectives) such as delicious and savory (savoury) in the English language. :A redirect from savory to Savoriness, by dictionary definitions, still means savory. Some synonyms of savory (Dictionary.com);
  • 1)- Agreeable: to one's liking; pleasing; agreeable manners; an agreeable sensation. "An experience he savored for the remainder of his life.", "The food was so good he savored it to the last bite".
  • 2)- Ambrosial: exceptionally pleasing to taste or smell; especially delicious or fragrant.
  • 3)- Palatable: acceptable or agreeable to the palate or taste; savory.
  • 4)- Delectable: delightful; highly pleasing; enjoyable.
I don't see where it is scientifically understood that the word savory means umami but I do know this is not a reason to redirect a very common word (several) to a less known and fairly new scientific word.
There is also the fact that the article is confusing. Something that is palatable is savory, but the section, Properties of umami taste states, " Umami has a mild but lasting after taste difficult to describe. ", " It induces salivation..." (mouth watering), and " By itself, umami is not palatable, but it makes a great variety of foods pleasant especially in the presence of a matching aroma. ". A food that tastes fantastic (agreeable, delectable, delicious and certainly palatable), that would cause one to want to hold it in the mouth a few moments (mouthwatering), is palatable and very savory so this is confusing. Why is umami hard to describe? Things that are sweet, sour, bitter and salty are not hard to describe or understand. From the article, "The optimum umami taste depends also on the amount of salt" means what? The article explains that salt (a certain amount) affects the optimum taste but states, "and at the same time, low-salt foods can maintain a satisfactory taste with the appropriate amount of umami"). Having "low salt" has some affect with an appropriate amount of umami. This gives the impression that salt (covered by another basic taste) has some bearing on umami. If this is so then there needs to be a section on this and the relationship explained as well as more concerning the statement, "...umami is pleasant only within a relatively narrow concentration range." Also, "In fact, Roinien et al. showed that ratings on pleasantness, taste intensity and ideal saltiness of low salt soups were greater when the soup contained umami.
It is alright for those that want to use a scientific word to describe a common usage word. It is not acceptable to change (redirect) a word that has common usage to a scientific word (fairly new in use), that in effect attempts to render a common word obsolete, but uses the same word as part of the definition. This article needs help from an expert to be less confusing.

Name change, drop the redirect, or both?

This article needs serious work and I will support any editor wishing to take a stab at corrections. original research like, " popularly referred to as savoriness" needs to be addressed, since not one of the 5 references address this.

I find it appalling and ridiculous that a very common word, used in both AmE and BrE, be redirected to an uncommon, and relatively new (we are not in Asia or Japan), scientific word. Some of the references for the article infer authority in defining the word ("You say savory, I say umami"), but I can not find where the "senior technical editor", Frances Katz, is a renown expert in the field of umami or that he is a doctor or scientist. There was an explanation in his article that makes some sense, "...identification of a protein-based savory flavor...".

Does this make sense?

I am still trying to connect that umami could be a technical or scientific synonym for savor, savory (savoury), or savoriness. To state that umami is savoriness is to suggest that something with the right amount of salt, sugar, spices, etc., but containing no umami, could not be savory. Try this example out, "That first cup of coffee this morning was so good I umamied every drop". I could have "savored" every drop except Wikipedia allowed the meaning to be changed. Umami will not become a common use word to replace savory and attempts to do so need to be reverted. A name change to Umami (taste), or Umami (sense of taste) should be explored. Otr500 (talk) 01:01, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Savoriness is not an equivalent word for the loan word umami. See [3] and [4]. I'd like to know if there is an en noun meaning the tastes of glutamic acid, inosinic acid and guanosine monophosphate. I think umami is a part of savoriness. I'm afraid it is clear that you don't know/understand what actually umami is. The palatability of coffee has nothing to do with umami as coffee has only 1% amino acid [5]. In ja, there is no verb form of umami. You don't understand the ja language and to understand the meaning by a literal translation is not right. And coffee is tasty without sugar and salt(!). Unlike the others, umami itself is a very subtle taste, we have the umami receptors though [6], and in fact, I didn't understand it as a child. You'll never know the taste unless you try non-artificial genuine fresh dashi. See also [7], [8], [9]. Oda Mari (talk) 09:19, 12 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your response. Then you agree with my comments that the article needs work and the improper redirects corrected? Your reply is exactly what my concern is about. I may have to try dashi to to experience "true unami" but I do not have to consume unami to experience savoriness. Would you agree that food does not have to contain unami to be mouthwatering, delicious, and savory? If you agree with this then the words in question; savory, savoriness, etc... are improperly redirected to unami. My example that included coffee is to show that the redirected word "savory", as the redirects as well as parts of the article implies, are interchangeable and not synonyms and I will argue this to the 10th degree. Your reference, [10] (number 8,) lists savouriness (savoury) twice, good flavor once, delicious (and savoury), deliciousness, the Japanese word for perfection, or the fifth taste as it relates to food, and as a distinct taste, as evidence that there are many words used to describe umami. There was no comment but I still feel the suggested name change to Umami (taste), or Umami (sense of taste) is more appropriate to Wikipedia. Otr500 (talk)

I figured exploring would be better than attaching a lot of tags of which may be sure to come without improvements. I am not arguing that there is not a taste called "unami". I haven't looked and you may be an expert, but re-read the article and my concerns. This is an encyclopedia for learning. If I do not know something I look it up. When I find the information it must be written so I can comprehend it. Here is an example: "You'll never know the taste unless you try non-artificial genuine fresh dashi". If someone tries dashi, finds it delectable, but does not know about the word "unami", then they can not possibly know that they have experienced unami, even though they did. The English language has thousands of words that can be used to help a reader understand the experience of unami so the editor must find some of these words that will make the article and definition more clear. Redirecting a common word (words) to allow for exposure of this scientific word means the title is not clear. This is why I suggested exploring a title change to "Umami (taste)", or "Umami (sense of taste)" and the proper category placements. You stated, "Savoriness is not an equivalent word for the loan word umami", and I agree but the definition, along with the redirects, beg to differ. Umami is a loanword from the Japanese umami meaning "pleasant savory taste". The subject is "taste" and the words pleasant savory modify this. Help me out and see if some changes can be made to make the article easier to understand for the general population. You state that I don't understand so help me, and others. Lets not forget the rules concerning original research such as popularly referred. I have stated concerns and I can tag all these or someone can help me out since I do not "understand". You stated, "I think umami is a part of savoriness", and this may be true but considering the redirects it is inferred that unami is savoriness and I disagree. Unami is a taste right? It may be a savory taste but still a taste. There would be argument that one may not find unami savory. Salty is salty, regardless of the likes or dislikes of someone experiencing the taste, and the same with sweet, bitter etc...

  • So what exactly is unami? "... pleasant only within a relatively narrow concentration range.", " lasting after-taste difficult to describe", "By itself, umami is not palatable...", "optimum umami taste depends also on the amount of salt", and we are to know that it has "possible" medical benefits to the elderly, "the elderly, may benefit from umami taste because their taste and smell sensitivity is impaired by age and multiple medications.", but it is not clear why. One of the references made the comment, "...identification of a protein-based savory flavor...", so does this have anything to do with umami?
  • Here is some scientific sounding words that need clarification, " Umami represents the taste of the amino acid L-glutamate and 5’-ribonucleotides such as guanosine monophosphate (GMP) and inosine monophosphate (IMP). Now we are getting somewhere, except; "meals that combined umami with salty, sour, sweet and bitter tastes", gives a little confusion. Salt apparently has an effect on the "optimum" umami taste and umami can be combined with other tastes. Otr500 (talk)

What is umami?

"The sensation of umami is due to the detection of the carboxylate anion of glutamate.", so I looked these up. They are glutamates and glutamic acid (natural) and are responsible for the umami taste. According to Kikunae Ikeda umami has an "ineffable but undeniable flavor...". Whew! this means that there are not enough words to give meaning to umami since the definition of ineffable is, incapable of being expressed or described in words or inexpressible. If this is true then someone has their work cut out for them for we now have a new 5th taste that can not be described or defined but some members of the scientific community support.

  • Please understand that I am not trying to be difficult. You stated, "I'm afraid it is clear that you don't know/understand what actually umami is.", and I am saying, "Someone explain it so I can understand it.". Your example (number 3 above); here, that is suppose to explain the equivalence between umami and savory, and states, "English words that have been suggested as equivalents (equal not the same), such as savoury", also explains that western food scientists are divided about whether it really exists or not.. This is inconsistent with part of the article, "Now it is widely accepted as the fifth basic taste.", and as per Wikipedia policy concerning neutral point of view should be included (if the source is acceptable) to address this. Neutrality must be adhered to and this is not evident in the article. Of the three core content policies verifiability, original research (lead sentence), and NPOV this article has severe issues concerning all three. Otr500 (talk)

Why is savory still in this article?

Multiple users have made overwhelming arguments to remove "savory=umami" equivalencies from this article yet they persist...to the detriment and confusion of all readers. I just finished reading the main entry and was so confused I came to this section to find out what the truth was. Clearly, English lexicographers do not see the common usage of "savory" being related to umami. That day may come. But until then this ENCYCLOPEDIA entry needs to stick to commonly understood meanings of words or else put the words with newly made up meanings in "quotations" <-- like that. And that needs to be done immediately. N0w8st8s (talk) 20:56, 10 September 2011 (UTC)n0wa8st8s[reply]

History section

Who is German chemist Karl Heinrich Leopold Ritthausen? According to the article Glutamic acid he "discovered and identified" the substance in 1866, 41 years before Kikunae Ikeda but there is no mention of this. There is also no mention of Saburosuke Suzuki II and the company Ajinomoto Co., Inc.[1][2] that he founded to market monosodium glutamate (MSG) with Kikunae Ikeda as a partner. Otr500 (talk)

Lead section

The lead section needs to be expanded following the guidelines. A paragraph of a section that is farther down under "Discovery of umami taste" might be better in the lead or higher up at any rate.

  • "This synergy of umami provides an explanation for various classical food pairings, starting with why Japanese make dashi with kombu seaweed and dried bonito flakes, and continuing with various other dishes: Chinese add Chinese leek and cabbage with chicken soup, as in the similar Scottish dish of cock-a-leekie soup, and Italians combine Parmesan cheese on tomato sauce with mushrooms. The umami taste sensation of those ingredients mixed together surpasses the taste of each one alone."
  • These are my opinions, and I have not spent a lot of time on research, but much of what I have written is supported by WP:Policies and guidelines so I hope at least considered. Otr500 (talk) 03:38, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mind changing the article name to Umami (taste) and I think the article needs work too. Though WP is not a RS, I think the definition of umami at Wikt is good. wikt:Umami The definition of the word in a ja dictionary is the original page and the translation. IMHO, umami is an important element to make some dishes tasty by adding richness or deepness to the taste of the dishes. Maybe you can recognize umami in simple chicken stock, instead of dashi. Try to make chicken stock only with chicken meat/bone and remove fat as possible. Then taste it without salt first like a sommelier tastes wine. Though there are gelatin and other extracts dashi doesn't contain, the stock has three amino acids I mentioned above and of course it tastes different from water. Then add some salt and taste it. Kombu dashi does not contain fat, gelatin, nor protein but minerals and it tastes simpler and thinner than chicken stock, looks like water, but it makes dishes more yummy than water. I have no idea when and who started to use dried kombu for dashi. They just knew it made dishes delicious by experience. As for "Western food scientists are divided about whether it really exists or not", it's understandable as taste is very subjective and umami is a subtle taste. I know what's umami like by my tongue, but it's very difficult to explain about umami to readers who have not recognized umami. Why don't you be bold and edit the article? If I find something wrong, I'll point it out. Oda Mari (talk) 10:26, 13 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I just think that adding "taste" or "sense of taste" will give understanding to the word. I do not mind editing the article but I am working on the "grasp" if you know what I mean. I live in Louisiana, in the Cajun heartland, so I understand the importance of enhancing taste. We use a seasoning called Tony Chachere's Creole seasoning that contains wheat, soy, and/or milk, along with salt, red pepper, black pepper, spiced chili powder (a mixture with chili peppers, other spices, salt and garlic powder), and garlic on many dishes and we also use a Cajun roux. I understand about the chicken stock very well. We use beef and chicken bouillon cubes that contains monosodium glutamate and wheat, and we also use gyoza sauce. I love certain Japanese as well as Chinese dishes because of the fantastic taste except we don't eat rice not smothered in gravy.

I have been researching and have to check the reliability of references. One of the references concerning Saburosuke Suzuki II is from the Ajinomoto Co., Inc web site (history section) and I wanted to find corroborating information. I also found one reference on German chemist Karl Heinrich Leopold Ritthausen but a lot of information is on non-acceptable and mirror sites. This will take a while because I am working on a few things already and I would like there to be an article on "Savory" (or savoriness). If I do edit and there is a mistake (since I still breath I am good at that) or something is wrong either correct it or take it out. There will be no edit war with collaboration and we can discuss reasoning and adding it back or not on the talk page. The discussed, "Western food scientists are divided about whether it really exists or not", is an opposing view and is actually very important for the article for NPOV. It is not relevant why they disagree but if this can be found with a source that is all the better and will prevent a tag. "Western" sources being cited is also good. I have found one from "Colorado State University[3] that should have relevant information. Dr. Paul Breslin[4] is a sensory geneticist at the Monell Chemical Senses Center in Philadelphia is involved in studies of Umami. I will put a hidden note on the article that collaboration is underway for improvements which might possibly stem any fly-by tagging. Otr500 (talk) 17:24, 14 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

"Oda Mari", I think "Umami (taste) would be better than the current title. If there are no objections, and since you "don't mind changing the article name", I would suggest this would be a major improvement. Otr500 (talk) 16:14, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Then ask at WP:REQMOVE? As I said before, I don't mind at all, but do not know what other editors think. BTW, it's not fresh dashi, but if you are really interested in dashi, I think it might be helpful to try this instant dried tofu to know the taste of Japanese dashi. You can cook it easily. See this. Oda Mari (talk) 19:16, 19 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

It can be done that way or with no objections (none so far) can be boldly changed. If someone objects (or reverts) then it can go to "REQMOVE". I am not proficient at doing this and the redirects but can try. Otr500 (talk) 00:12, 20 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I will attempt to seek a name change.

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn by nominator - non-admin close. Miracle Pen (talk) 12:05, 19 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


Umami → Umami (taste) –. The name of the title would be more clear because without the added word "taste" there is no meaning to those not familiar with "Umami", which is supposedly one of "five basic tastes: sweetness, bitterness, sourness, saltiness, and umami." The Japanese loan word would be more meaningful with (taste) added, especially since this is the "English Wikipedia". Otr500 (talk) 04:51, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. No need for disambiguation since no page has same name. The article should serve the purpose of informing the reader of what this unheard-of term is. Unless the nominator should propose that all links to Umami should be made Umami (taste) as well, I believe the argument has no validity. Pascal Hacutin (talk) 08:57, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The purpose of title disambiguation is... to disambiguate. There's nothing to disambiguate, and so there's no need for a dab in the title. Title dabs are not somewhere to add handy auxiliary information about a topic - title dabs only exist so that different articles can have different URLs. Miracle Pen (talk) 12:26, 13 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. Disambiguators are intended to disambiguate when multiple articles exist with the same name. This is not the case here, so disambiguation is unnecessary. --DAJF (talk) 01:12, 14 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What was the 5th taste before Umami, and how did Umami come to be?

I'm confused on when or why Umami was formed and what it replaced and why it replaced it. What is the story behind all this anyway? I never learned about Umami in school (it was a while ago) and have only known savoury. I have seen this huge uproar on Wikipedia about savoury vs. Umami, or even on the word Umami itself being acceptable as a loan word. This whole debate, its defenders and its attackers, is baffling. Something so polarizing is amazing! Where did this come from?!? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.245.229.247 (talk) 03:55, 31 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A plausible clarification of Umami

The Umami entry has stirred some discussion. Perhaps a the the wording below could help the understanding of umami

Taste is a characteristic of chemical compositions and associated with food. (However, non foods have tastes too!). Specifically taste is a result of in impulse from a specific receptor in the nervous system. Formerly, tastes where classified as salty, sour, bitter, or sweet which are attributed to different “taste” receptor cells. Today there is a fifth taste called savoriness and sometimes referred to umami (a Japenese word roughly meaning savory). Technically, in order to truly be classified as a specific taste, a specific chemical receptor must be identified that triggers the taste. In the case of umami, the sense of the taste is a result of more than one mechanism and receptor cell, but as such is still identified as a unique taste. The chemical activity resulting in the umami taste is associated with L-glutamate (in acidic and salt forms). ( Brand, J.G. “Receptor and Transduction Processes for Umami Taste.” The Journal of Nutrition. jn.nutrition.org/content/130/4/942.full.pdf 2000. WEB. 12 Sept 2011. 

 Li, Xiaodng. “T1R resceptors mediate mammalian sweet and umami taste.” American Journal of Clinical Nutrition. Vol. 90 no. 3. Sept 2009. http://www.ajcn.org/content/90/3/733S.short. WEB. 12 Sept 2011.)

Taste receptors are located inside the taste buds which are found in the tongue, soft palate, upper esophagus, and epiglottis...

This just a thought that may help in clarifying and validating umami as a test. Yes, there appears to be scientific proof of a specific taste mechanism for umami which earn it the 5th taste classification.

  1. ^ ajinomoto
  2. ^ ajinomoto history
  3. ^ Colorado State University
  4. ^ Dr. Paul Breslin
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