Talk:Werner Erhard

Portait updating

Anyone got an updated commons picture as seen here our pic clearly requires updating as it is from 35 years ago and he is seventy six years old now. Off2riorob (talk) 22:03, 4 November 2011 (UTC) Can you use this: http://wernererhardquotes.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/wernererhard20101.jpg ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.183.190.78 (talk) 06:35, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Updating Article

It seems to me that this article is not very current and up to date in regard to the work Erhard has done in recent years. It's a good suggestion to update the picture as suggested above, but I also think that adding some information about the work he is currently doing would be good too.--MLKLewis (talk) 00:10, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

• I added a few of Erhard's current papers to the PUBLICATIONS section, which starts to update the article. That's a good start. More is needed.--RecoveringAddict (talk) 21:58, 19 November 2011 (UTC)

Weasel wording

Hi Sensei48. If you don't like the minor edit I did, I'd prefer that you discuss it here rather than high-handedly doing an instant revert. You say in your edit summary "The fact that the book was approved by Landmark is important, not weasel." Well, tht is your opinon and you are entitled to it. My opinion is that mentioning it in that context is clearly weasel wording, as it carries a clear implication that the book and its content is in some way compromised or suspect. If the content of the book is suspect, it should be possible to say so clearly and unambiguously, with appropriate citations.

I have two other concerns about bringing in the alleged "approval by Landmark Education". Firstly, the only source for that assertion is a throw-away line in the New York Review article "Pay Money, Be Happy", which is an entertaining op-ed piece with a generally flippant and disparaging tone, rather than a serious piece of factual reporting. Unless something more compelling in the way of a citation can be found, I suggest that is not enough to include in an encyclopedia treatment. Secondly, even if true that Landmark Education "approved" Jane Self's book, what does that mean? Does it mean that they previewed it and vetted the content, or does it just mean that they didn't object to it? The former meaning is clearly implied by mentioning it in the context, which is why I think the clause should be omitted unless there is more compelling support for the assertion and its implied slur. DaveApter (talk) 15:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello DavidA: First, you offered no defense for your assertion of "weasel" until AFTER I had reverted it. Second, my revert was no more "high-handed" than yours - above you say "My opinion is that mentioning it in that context is clearly weasel wording...." - nothing makes your opinion on this superior to mine, except that the material I reintroduced was sourced. The NYM piece is more correctly referred to as a feature article, not an op-ed, and it is published in a reputable and long-established journal. It is no less a WP:RS than many of the est/Landmark/Erhard-oriented publications cited in this article.

The larger issue is that Self's book is highly suspect as a RS. As you know, Self has taken Landmark courses and was and remains an advocate of the program, not an objective or academic analyst of it. The "approved by LM" establishes the suspect objectivity of the book, which was the point in the NYM article. That needs to be done in an encyclopedia article. If you prefer, Self's personal involvement with Landmark can be sourced form 3rd party publications and from her own pronouncements. In any event, whether the NYM article or another source is used, this section cannot reputably present Self or her work as disinterested. Her involvement with the program is a fact, not a slur. Sensei48 (talk) 17:00, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the prompt response. Firstly, I hadn't thought that the description of weasel-wording needed any justification as it genuinely seemed to me that the sentence was a clear instance of that. The whole passage had a clumsy and convoluted feel to it.

Secondly, I don't subscribe to the view that anyone who has done Landmark courses is automatically disqualified from being able to write truthfully and objectively about it and related issues. Her book strikes me as being fair and thoroughly researched and annotated with full citations of the sources of her claims (have you read it?).

Thirdly, yes - I would agree that the NYM piece should more correctly be described as a "feature article" than an "op-ed", but I think this is splitting hairs. My point is that it is not in any sense a news report. It is an article that is infused with the opinions and viewpoints of its author. It is an entertaining and mildly satirical description of the Landmark Forum written by someone who deliberately chose not to engage with the course for its intended purpose of empowering her to live life more fully.

Fourthly, the main point, is how to improve this article. I'd be happier if the entire two sentences relating to Self's book were removed completely, and we just leave the ones drawing on material from the Los Angeles Times, which is presumably an uncontroversial WP:RS? What do you think? DaveApter (talk) 18:40, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

I too would be happier without any reference to the Self book. The fact that her self-description includes an endorsement of Landmark and that adverts for the book included the comment that "After being maligned on "60 Minutes" in 1991, Werner Erhard told his version of events exclusively to Jane Self..." (italics mine, of course) prevents this book from being an acceptable RS. That engagement with the subject of the book does in fact render it unreliable as a source; the intent of the work is advocacy, not scholarship - not surprising since Self's academic background is in educational administration, not a relevant discipline like history, sociology, or psychology.

Your critique of the tone of the NYM article is well-taken, and I agree that that tone disqualifies it as a RS also. I would, however, take cautious exception to something you note above - that the author "deliberately chose not to engage with the course for its intended purpose of empowering her to live life more fully." In the context of a less flippant article, your point there would be a qualification, not the opposite - it would point to an objectivity, a disinterest, that an adherence to the principles of the program or accepting it on its own terms would prevent.

The parallel, and not I think an unflattering one, would be to an article on a major religion. What communicants believe about the religion should be included in the article, but as beliefs, not as objective facts. Academic objectivity does require a non-involvement with the subject on its own terms. Here, that might mean that the author of the NYM article should perhaps have taken a course or at least attended a seminar - but to investigate its nature, operation, and claims objectively, not to "engage" with it for its "intended purpose." Sensei48 (talk) 19:16, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a good point, and I think there are some subtle matters to debate, maybe another time. I do think the Landmark Forum makes little sense from the viewpoint of someone who is determined to remain a "disinterested observer". The Amelia Hill article seems to me impressive, written as it is by someone who came with an agenda of doing an expose but who saw what there might be available.

Anyway, as regards improving this article, I'll take out those sentences and we'll see where to go from here. best. DaveApter (talk) 19:33, 24 February 2012 (UTC)