Talk:Flood myth

Umbrians

The Umbrian people are the oldest in Italy, they were called Ombrici by the Greeks because they survived the deluge. Etruscans submitted more than 300 Umbrians cities —Pliny the Elder, Book III, paragraph112[1], Umbrorum gens antiquissima Italiae existimatur, ut quos Ombrios a Graecis putent dictos, quos inundatione terrarum imbribus superfuissent. Trecenta eorum oppida Tusci debellasse reperiuntur.

Does this fit anywhere? Also, an etymology: it is from Old French déluge, alteration of earlier deluvie < Latin dīluvium, from lavō (“‘wash’”). Mallerd (talk) 14:04, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Richard Packham

Biblical flood geology, while perhaps pseudoscience, may or may not still be a widely held viewpoint among the biblical archaeology community. The citation given at 27, Richard Packham's review of "Veith: The Genesis Conflict" cites William G Dever (as the wikipedia citation states) as evidence that flood geology is no longer widely held among the biblical archaeology community. Dever's quote is as follows:

The "archaeological revolution" in biblical studies confidently predicted by [George E.] Wright and his teacher, the legendary William Foxwell Albright, had come about by the 1980s, but not entirely in the positive way that they had expected. Many of the "central events" as narrated in the Hebrew Bible turn out not to be historically verifiable (i.e., not "true") at all. [William G. Dever, What Did the Biblical Writers Know, and When Did They Know It? What Archaeology Can Tell Us about the Reality of Ancient Israel (Grand Rapids, Michigan: Eerdmans, 2001), 21.]

I personally don't see that as a sound citation of the statement that biblical flood geology is or is not a widely held viewpoint any longer. It would seem that a declaration from someone within the biblical archaeological community would be a better source for whether or not it's a widely held viewpoint anymore. Rockiesmagicnumber (talk) 16:22, 20 November 2009 (UTC)

Dever is from within the biblical archaeology community.PiCo (talk) 09:06, 21 January 2010 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article definitely does not meet NPOV standards. It calls the flood a myth rather than a legend. Overall, it has good information but it is written in a POV way. I firstly propose renaming it to flood legend. Arlen22 (talk) 13:44, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

What part of the NPOV policy does this article definitely fail to meet because of its use the word myth? This part of the NPOV policy suggests it is fine. Ben (talk) 14:08, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

It discusses multiple flood myths, I'd argue that it is pov to talk about 'the flood'. Dougweller (talk) 14:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

A myth is something that never happened. Usually the flood is called a legend. Arlen22 (talk) 17:17, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

We've had this discussion before elsewhere. That may be what you mean by myth, but the usage here is in line with our article Mythology. Dougweller (talk) 17:19, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Further to Doug's comment, it should be noted that not agreeing with something is not grounds for something to be considered not neutral. Neutrality is defined in terms of reliable sources, not in terms of what we agree or disagree with, like or do not like, or see as equivalent treatment of views or not. Cheers, Ben (talk) 17:29, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• Myth is fiction, a fable - usually an entirely fictional event but sometimes a fictionalized account of something that actually happened, whether in a religious context or not.
• Legend is the more proper term for (intentionally or unintentionally) falsified accounts of something that really happened, like the 40 day global flood in 1656 A.M. (Anno Mundi) in the days of Noah.

The hundreds of flood legends validate the fact of the flood, but not the true details. Remember that 120 years after the flood, at the tower of Babel (1776 A.M.) after the confusion of tongues, all or most of the people no longer understood the original angelish language, so it would be difficult to verbalize the story, although they would retain the images in their memory that formed as they heard or read the account. Anyway, I agree the page should be: Flood_Legends

some legends: http://www.avbtab.org/flood/f05.htm
Telpardec (talk) 06:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

If you wish to be neutral, read the dictionary definition for the words Myth & Ledgend and I think you will find that ledgend is the better fit. Also it would take out the author's opinion on whether the matter is true or false and it would then be a case of just reporting the evidence according to current knowledge, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.49.81.165 (talk) 12:15, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

Myth does not mean something that never happened, at least not in academic usage. In comparative religion a myth is a story that is sacred and holds a particular significance within a religious tradition. The word legend is not used in religious studies at all. This discussion surges from time to time when an adherent of some religion takes offense at his religions sacred texts being described as "mythology" - it is always easy to refute this as "mythology" can be shown to be a completely neutrally laden word in the comparative study of religion and that it is routinely applied to the body of narratives and beliefs of all religious traditions. This is all amply explained and sourced in the lead of the article Mythology which you should read before arguing further. ·Maunus·ƛ· 12:21, 11 March 2010 (UTC)

I find it interesting that so many of the world's cultures have stories along this whole subject. If it is a myth, why do societies that were totally separated from each other for all of history (China versus Maya) share the gist of the tale? --Gniniv (talk) 03:47, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

First of all, I think you are misunderstanding what "myth" means — have a look at the relevant article. Secondly, there is already a section in the article that discusses work that has examined why flood myths are common. If you're really interested, have a look at these. If, instead, you're wishing to argue that parallels between flood myths mean that there really was a global flood on the Earth, then you're in the wrong place (the right place is possibly flood geology). --PLUMBAGO 16:21, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Why not just call it "Deluge" in stead of "Deluge myth" then? Let the reader deside if it is a myth or not. If you don't, then it is not consistent with, for example, Dating methodology. That is even considered to be absolutely true, while it lacks evidence. --Broertje128 15:55, 24 June 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Broertje128 (talk • contribs)

This page is definitely incorrectly labeled "DELUGE MYTH". DELUGE should be replaced by FLOOD, since the key to the story is that people drowned, not that they got rained on. MYTH should be replaced by STORY or LEGEND since the word myth generally carries connotations. For me, I slightly prefer "FLOOD STORY" to "FLOOD LEGEND", although the nuances are not great between these two. Jonathan.mark.lingard (talk) 11:34, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

First, let me assure you that I read the Mythology article. I understand what you are saying about the difference between the academic usage of the word "myth" and the common usage. However, it is a mistake to think of Wikipedia as an academic-only document. More non-academics than academics use this resource (if you want to argue that point, you're grasping at straws). It is wrong to use the word "myth," knowing that the majority of readers will attach the "falsehood" connotation to it. You are hiding behind academics to mislead people into believing that there really was no flood. This is a POINT OF VIEW error that is not supposed to be in Wikipedia.

I think the following is more neutral, even though my point of view thinks it doesn't go nearly far enough: Although the term "myth" is often used colloquially to refer to a false story, academic use of the term generally does not pass judgment on truth or falsity. The Wikipedia article on the Black Sea deluge theory states, "it is agreed by all that the sequence of events described did occur." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.138.147.240 (talk) 14:28, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure what your point is about the Black Sea 'deluge' theory - what isn't agreed is the suggestion that it was some sort of what we would call a flood, rather than a slow rise in the water level, and that this somehow is the source of some flood myth - a slow rise in water level wouldn't be that impressive.. Dougweller (talk) 14:59, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The end of the last ice age wasn't THAT slow or unimpressive. A rise of metres within a human lifetime (which, in flat areas, could mean a transgression of many miles inland) would be quite dramatic. And in addition to the global sea level rise, there were the far more dramatic breaking out of glacial lakes etc. - creating things like the Channeled Scablands. The draining of practically the whole center of North America seems to have caused the Younger Dryas by disrupting the North Atlantic thermohaline circulation. The Black Sea flood was just one of many, and not the largest or most dramatic. At some point in the early Holocene, pretty much everywhere near a coast would have experienced massive flooding...

While there was certainly not a 'global flood' in the literalist sense of 'everything was underwater', the sea level rise at the end of the last ice age was global in that it affected every continent. Unlike the Black Sea etc. hypotheses, this explains the existence of flood myths in both hemispheres.

In fact there are really only three possible explanations of that fact. Either the myth is so old that it dates back to the common cultural ancestor of all the cultures which have a flood myth (which would be close to the out-of-Africa migration); the myth is for some reason so natural to human beings that it was independently invented practically everywhere; or the myth is derived from events affecting all continents. Since we have a perfectly good example of the latter (the sea level rises at the end of the last ice age and attendant glacial lake breakouts etc.) it seems by far the simplest hypothesis -- much more parsimonious than dozens of independent inventions of the same myth or transmission of a legend for fifty thousand years or so. 165.91.166.134 (talk) 22:27, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, please add some neutrality to the page. It's an embarrassment to the website. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.200.169.167 (talk) 21:57, 26 June 2011 (UTC)
I agree, many people argue that wikipedia is not reliable enough to take it serious. They let anyone edit or put anyone's opinions or views. From what I believe, I think it would be most proper if this article was renamed simply to the Great Flood, or Deluge instead of calling it a "myth." The main discussion is about the Great Flood, not with the purpose to disprove the concept, or belief. This has to do with religion too. No one will go name an article the Christ Myth.--72.199.113.143 (talk) 03:48, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Ahem, Christ myth. --Saddhiyama (talk) 10:00, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

In response to "... there are really only three possible explanations of that fact" - there are at least two more possible explanations:

(4) Wherever there are rivers, there are local river floods. Some of these are reported by story tellers when they travel to distant places and interesting details, such as a family on a large cattle boat, get added to distant stories about unrelated floods. Missionaries taught the cattle boat story to distant people who had their own local flood stories.

(5) Story words are often misunderstood. The Hebrew word "erets" which is usually translated "earth" in English, did not mean the planet earth, it meant the land or country, as in Pearl Buck's novel "The Good Earth" meaning farm land. A story that reports that all of the country was flooded can be misunderstood to mean all of the planet earth was flooded. Greensburger (talk) 00:59, 27 June 2011 (UTC)

Tone

No comments on this so I see no reason for the tag. Dougweller (talk) 14:25, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

African flood myths

It would be great if someone could add African 'great flood' myths. Every other region seems to be covered. Barney Hill (talk) 23:57, 23 January 2010 (UTC)

The East Africa Masai (Maasai_people) have an oral legend, but I don't have any particulars. Likewise the Egyptian book of the dead.
Telpardec (talk) 06:40, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Jewish

Is there a reason why this section specifies a 365-day year, rather than the 360-day Jewish year? Downstrike (talk) 20:12, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Describing the Popul Vuh as pre-Columbian

We should not be making any claims that suggest that the Popul Vuh is pre-Columbian, and in particular the deluge myth. The first written evidence for it is over two centuries after Spanish contact, Father Ximénez's manuscript.

Stephen Hart: "Any hope that the Popul Vuh might be a completely pre-Columbian text is dispelled in the introduction in which the (unknown) author refers to writing under the Law of God and Christianity" (Popul Vuh 79-80). "

Early Spanish American narrative By Naomi Lindstrom: "The existing version of the Popol Vuh does not reflect exclusively Maya sources, but controversy rages over the degree of Christian influence. Some researchers view the Popol Vuh as a cultural fusion, while others stress its Mayan character." Dougweller (talk) 15:18, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think the deluge myth is questionable as an precolumbian idea as the idea of multiple creations destroyed in various ways - by fire, water, wild animals etc. is found throughout mesoamerica.·Maunus·ƛ· 09:13, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Just a suggestion

There should be a link to the deluge (prehistory) page close to or within the flood hypotheses section.

68.54.107.114 (talk) 17:53, 11 April 2010 (UTC)DelugeSuggestionGuy

Book of Enoch

I dont think it would be appropriate to add the information taken from the book of Enoch and merge it with the Jewish perspective because Judaism rejects the book of Enoch and doesnt regard it as scriptureYitzhak Mordechai (talk) 21:04, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

It would be accurate to say that it's rejected by mainstream Judaism, but it's a Jewish book just the same. PiCo (talk) 10:49, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Article name change

I can't see any consensus or even any discussion about a name change?Teapotgeorge^Talk 20:03, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

See the Neutrality section above for a bit of rather dated discussion, don't see much in the way of consensus. Vsmith (talk) 20:20, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

It definitely shouldn't have been done out of the blue in this way. Dougweller (talk) 20:28, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm changing it back. If the common name isn't "Flood myth" we should be able to ascertain this, but the current move was clearly done unilaterally and should be reversed.Griswaldo (talk) 20:40, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

And she's changing the names of books, invented a word legendology (using the replace function I presume) etc. Dougweller (talk) 20:41, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I've reverted the article changes and posted to her talk page, if someone can please move the article back until we have a discussion, thanks, I'm off to bed. If she continues with no discussion, probably ANI. Dougweller (talk) 20:45, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

She doesn't seem to want to discuss, she's simply reverted me with no explanation. She's at 2 reverts now, as am I. I really must go! Dougweller (talk) 20:48, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

His name is Arlen, not Arlene! 72.25.47.154 (talk) 20:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, Mr. IP, you are quite correct. As pointed out above, Myth is much more POV than Legend. I moved it because I have tried discussion before and even though myth is in clear violation of WP:NPOV, the move was blocked. Arlen22 (talk) 20:57, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

So you try discussion and don't get a consensus but move anyway!Teapotgeorge^Talk 21:37, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I actually didn't even know that discussion existed. I do remember that I brought it up though. I decided that even though past discussions did not get anywhere (there was a huge one sometime in the past), I figured I could since it was in violation of WP:NPOV. Arlen22 (talk) 12:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Do not move pages like this without discussion. That's simply disruptive. It does not violate WP:NPOV in the least. You would need to establish that and to get a consensus behind you before making the move.Griswaldo (talk) 12:22, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

And furthermore in the Neutrality discussion, there were five for the move and three against it. Who said there wasn't consensus. In that discussion, at least one person, and maybe a second, had the POV that the flood never happened and said to therefore not change the name. I changed it to flood legends, which is more neutral than flood myths. We are trying to get good info to the general public, and therefore we have to use words the way the general public uses them. Arlen22 (talk) 12:21, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Therefore, per discussion above, I will move it. I won't do a global replace though. Arlen22 (talk) 12:23, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

You do not understand WP:CONSENSUS. It is not a vote. The discussion above took place over almost 7 months and two of the editors (one an IP that might in fact be one of the other editors) had that as their only post, a 3rd editor has only 55 edits. The pertinent discussion is this one, the only one in fact that is clearly labelled as a name change discussion. We don't disqualify editors who think the flood happened or never happened (at least one of the editors in that discussion is a Young Earth Creationist, possibly others, shall we disqualify them also? Dougweller (talk) 12:46, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Arlen22 still needs to explain why the common usage term "deluge myth" is a violation of NPOV. There seems no valid reason for the renaming as far as I can see. --Saddhiyama (talk) 12:55, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Arlen22 doesn't need to explain anything. He/she needs to be rolled back and then stay away from the article. I have complained about the abysmal level of this "debate", but this beats everything I have seen so far. Seriously, this is just pathetic. --dab (𒁳) 14:08, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

WP:NAME

For the record, google books indicates that the four combinations "flood myth", "flood legend", "deluge myth", "deluge legend" occur in this order of frequency, in a ratio of about 7:4:4:2. This means that "flood legend" and "deluge myth" have a similar incidence, while "flood myth" is the most common by a significant margin, and "deluge legend" the least common, also by a significant margin.

Unlike most edit-warriors around here, I understand the difference of meaning between "legend" and "myth". Any discussion of a name change based on opinions of "npov" from a religionist or anti-religionist perspective fail from the outset. The only valid approach is look at scholarly literature and try to figure out which is the most commonly used term. --dab (𒁳) 14:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I'm in favor of changing to "Flood myth" if others can agree to this, based on those results. As I mentioned at the fringe theories board I was inclined to think flood myth was most common, but I was too lazy to do the searches ... thanks Dab. The NPOV argument is nonsense.Griswaldo (talk) 16:32, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I can support a change to "flood myth" as well, since that apparently is common usage (I can only offer the same non-excuse as Griswaldo for not checking it out myself). --Saddhiyama (talk) 16:36, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Flood myth is eminently suitable and seems to be in more common usage than deluge myth.Teapotgeorge^Talk 16:56, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Name change Deluge myth -> Flood myth

What's the best way to do this? Flood myth redirects here so I can't "move" the page. Just copy and paste the content and change the redirects around or is there a more efficient way to do it?Griswaldo (talk) 12:11, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

An admin can move a page to a new title if consensus exists. The best way to ensure this is to post at WP:Requested moves and wait for a reasonable time for all views to be heard. Attempting to move articles by copy-and-paste messes up copyright compliance since it loses track of who added what content. EdJohnston (talk) 12:22, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I wasn't thinking about the page histories. I'll do that. Thanks.Griswaldo (talk) 12:35, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved per discussion below. - GTBacchus^(talk) 23:49, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

---

Deluge myth → Flood myth — "Flood myth" appears to be the most common name for this content. Requesting move per WP:UCN.Griswaldo (talk) 12:37, 30 July 2010 (UTC)

• no opinion. Both titles are fine, and they are also exact synonyms. I have noted above that "flood myth" is more frequent on google books by a ratio of about 7:4, but I have not investigated further to establish which is preferred in academic or generally high quality publications. --dab (𒁳) 08:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
• The sense I got from other searches was that Flood was more common than Deluge. Deluge tends to be used much less in general in American English (perhaps not in the British Commonwealth nations?), but they are indeed synonyms.Griswaldo (talk) 11:57, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
• Oppose; my sense is that "deluge", due to its rarity in modern English, is used to refer specifically to an ancient, large-scale flood, versus "flood", which could refer to an inch of water in someone's basement. Powers ^T 13:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
  • Note that the three lead illustrations are each titled "The Deluge", not "The Flood". =) Powers ^T 11:11, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
    • Yes I agree, "deluge" is antiquated, but that goes against the idea of WP:UCN. What is the policy justification for supporting a name because it is less common? I'm not sure I understand.Griswaldo (talk) 11:32, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
      • I meant it's rarely used to refer to common flooding. For ancient floods of Biblical proportions, "deluge" is common enough to be on par with "flood" and so WP:PRECISION takes over. Powers ^T 17:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
• Weak support. If the article were exclusively about the flood in Genesis, then one could point out that the traditional English name for it is "Deluge". But the article is about many different flood stories from many cultures. The article which is specific to the Deluge is Noah's Ark, I believe. TomS TDotO (talk) 12:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
  • As you can see from the fourth picture in this article, it's not just Noah's flood that is referred to as The Deluge. Powers ^T 17:28, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
• Support The article is about other flood myths of various types. One flood myth I know of only involves a flooded village. Dougweller (talk) 12:49, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

And there's another flooded village myth in the article, and most of the Chinese flood myths are about regional floods. Dougweller (talk) 17:37, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Flood is more widely used. Cjc13 (talk) 11:39, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Redaction or composition?

I'll go along with "redaction" rather than "composition", but I'll question the other changes:

(1) Why remove references to later non-canonical literature?

(2) The redaction was from J and P, not from the surviving ANE literature.0

(3) Giving years for the range, rather than centuries, has the appearance of more precision than we can claim.

TomS TDotO (talk) 09:43, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I don't see why this page should go into any detail on the Genesis flood. Unlike most other items on this page, it has its own dedicated article. Of course, the final Hebrew text was redacted from earlier Hebrew texts, and these earlier Hebrew texts (J, P), now no longer extant, were in turn derived from older Assyro-Babylonian accounts (which are still extant). --dab (𒁳) 11:50, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

I'll remove some of the detail. PiCo (talk) 02:03, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

Composition history of the Book of Genesis

Moses as author, c.1440 BC: not generally regarded as likely. Documentary hypothesis (four separate versions composed 950-550 BC and joined like Siamese twins c.450): popular up to about 1970, now far less so, but not quite dead. Post-DH theories with a Deuteronomist working c.600 BC, a Yahwsit c.550, and a Priestly c.450: quite popular. Where to find out about these things: I'll have a look and get back to you. PiCo (talk) 03:54, 4 August 2010 (UTC)

PiCo, see the ref that I've just added to Mosaic authorship. It appears there is no modern consensus ^rossnixon 03:21, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The source you added says the following -- "Whybray's work on the Pentateuch could be viewed as the logical conclusion of the direction in which most pentateuchal criticism has been moving in the last three decades, More and more studies have been insisting on the sixth century as the time in which the whole work took shape, and there has been an ever stronger trend to unitary readings and a reaction against minute dissection." I fail to see where the source supports the idea that Mosaic authorship is seriously considered by any scholars today.Griswaldo (talk) 03:42, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

I think we can use that reference in this article. PiCo (talk) 12:23, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

The consensus is that there is no indication that Moses is in any way a historical individual. Plus of course there are some orthodox rabbinical authors who say "BUT... if you really want to believe he was historical, here's how you could argue..." That's just "you may believe if you really want to", it has nothing to do with actual evidence or historiography. If you absolutely want to believe that king Minos or king Romulus are historical, there is nothing to stop you from that either, but there is also no point on writing lengthy arguments about the "historicity of king Minos/Romulus", because there is simply zero evidence: it's a non-issue. --dab (𒁳) 14:56, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

article structure

most of this article is just a "list of various unrelated myths about floods". I don't really see the value of that. Especially in cases of myths that already have full coverage elsewhere. The only part of the article that is actually encyclopedic and to the point is the "Hypotheses of origin of flood legends" bit hidden away at the end of the lengthy list part. Perhaps this should be reconsidered. --dab (𒁳) 14:58, 31 August 2010 (UTC)

This article needs to get a makeover similar to the one Creation myth recently received. Lets start splitting. merging and deleting. When we're left with the more general information we can consider how to expand the entry.Griswaldo (talk) 11:33, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Deleting Ogygian flood section

User:PiCo deleted a complete section in Flood myth compiled by many editors over the last three years or so, which incorporated some eighteen internal links, plus three footnotes, claiming that "there's not a single reliable source cited".

The article now reads: "Greek mythology knows three floods": The flood of Deucalion and the flood of Dardanus...

Is everyone happy with this? --Odysses (₪) 22:16, 2 September 2010 (UTC)

The Greek section is far too long - longer than any other by a considerable margin. All three Greek flood stories should be combined in a single, brief section.PiCo (talk) 00:57, 3 September 2010 (UTC)

perhaps read my comment right above this section? The entire article is listcruft and needs to be split anyway. Edit-warring over individual sections is not helpful. --dab (𒁳) 13:35, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

spliting the article into various sections sounds reasonable. Then individual sections could be edited and expanded more easily. --Odysses (₪) 22:50, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Odysses, see below. What Dab suggested has been done already. I made sure all the content that didn't already have a home had a new one and then created List of flood myths. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:53, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes, good work. Perhaps List of flood myths link could be expanded into a paragraph including "main article tag" ({main|tag}}). --Odysses (₪) 23:09, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Claim for oldest flood myth should be removed

The Indian flood myth section makes the claim that it is "arguably the oldest flood myth and possibly the origin of all flood myths". How can this be, if it is written AD 320-550, while the Epic of Gilgamesh was written more than 1000 years earlier? --85.146.35.119 (talk) 10:23, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for sharing your observation. I've removed the claim.Griswaldo (talk) 11:28, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Entry overhaul

I'm starting the entry overhaul. We need to create an entry here that is about flood myths generally and not a list of them. This means we need to go through all the myths listed individually and either merge the material into appropriate existing entries or create new entries. Then we need to delete the material from this entry. Please understand that no material is being scrubbed from Wikipedia, it is all being moved to appropriate places. Let's get to work.Griswaldo (talk) 11:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Not a lot of interest in this I see. Too bad. I'm working through this slowly. Any help would still be appreciated.Griswaldo (talk) 12:23, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I undid some of your additions to Polynesian articles. We get a lot of unsourced stuff added and it tends to distort the material. Perhaps better to mention it on a talk page rather than add unsourced stuff. A lot of flood myths postdate the arrival of the Bible and shouldn't be added into genuine myth material anyway Kahuroa (talk) 17:29, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I moved the material by following the links, and I apologize if some of them were wrong. Ro'o redirects to Rongo ... if that is not correct then you probably want to fix that as well. Regarding whether or not those myths post-date the arrival of missionaries and if that invalidates them that is not a question for you or I, but for scholars writing about these stories. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 18:33, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Which is exactly why we don't want to mix stuff together that shouldn't be mixed together. Ro'o should redirect to Rongo, that's okay for now since they are cognates and until there is a separate page for the deity as it is manifested in the various cultures. But there was nothing in the material you added that suggested it was about Ro'o the deity - there was just a character of that name in a story about another deity. Ro'o is a common word in Polynesian languages and often used in names. Kahuroa (talk) 21:46, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Yes that's fine. I was just following the link that was already placed in this entry. Here the Ro'o material you say is about a different character was wikilinked and it lead to the Rongo entry. I'm not questioning what you're saying just explaining why I ended up doing what I did. Thanks again for pointing it out. Cheers.Griswaldo (talk) 22:39, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Homeless content

In Norse mythology, there are two separate deluges. According to the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson, the first occurred at the dawn of time before the world was formed. Ymir, the first giant, was killed by the god Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve, and when he fell, so much blood flowed from his wounds that it drowned almost the entire race of giants with the exception of the frost giant Bergelmir and his wife. They escaped in a ship and survived, becoming the progenitors of a new race of giants. Ymir's body was then used to form the earth while his blood became the sea.

The second, in the Norse mythological time cycle, is destined to occur in the future during the final battle between the gods and giants, known as Ragnarök. During this apocalyptic event, Jormungandr, the great World Serpent that lies beneath the sea surrounding Midgard, the realm of mortals, will rise up from the watery depths to join the conflict, resulting in a catastrophic flood that will drown the land. However, following Ragnarök the earth will be reborn and a new age of humanity will begin.

The mythologist Brian Branston noted the similarities between this legend and an incident described in the Anglo-Saxon epic poem Beowulf, which had traditionally been associated with the biblical flood, so there may have been a corresponding incident in the broader Germanic mythology as well as in Anglo-Saxon mythology.

• Any suggestions for where this content could go?Griswaldo (talk) 16:32, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Now what?

I've found homes for the list like content in the entry but now what do we do? The options are 1) a disambiguation page or 2) a list entry. I think a list page would be better. Thoughts?Griswaldo (talk) 19:36, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

I created List of flood myths and removed the list from this entry.Griswaldo (talk) 20:27, 30 September 2010 (UTC)

Well done - good way to keep this article focused. Kahuroa (talk) 00:09, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

This was all just the first step. Now we have to build the article here with more general materials on flood myths. I suggest, to anyone who is interested, to consult the most general sources first, like Encyclopedias of mythology and the like, so we can figure out the best structure for the article.Griswaldo (talk) 00:14, 1 October 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what your long-term intentions are but the article at the moment reads very strangely, in that it doesn't say much at all. firstly I was looking for info on the Noah myth, and got re-directed here from 'Noah's Flood'. But Noah's not even mentioned. I suggest the re-direct is changed to Noah's Ark. Secondly, before moving on to find the Noah specific article I thought I'd stay here to have a quick read about other flood myths. But there's nothing about them either! In fact it's about the geology of flood myth origins. I would have expected this article to be a survey of the various myths (with links to specific articles) and material on historical/literary origins and connections, with geological background certainly covered but probably the most minor part. DeCausa (talk) 14:49, 22 December 2010 (UTC)

Flandrian Transgression

This is the source of the flood myths I believe. Eden is underneath the seafloor of the Persian Gulf just east of Kuwait.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flandrian_transgression http://ldolphin.org/eden/

AThousandYoung (talk) 16:21, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Suggestion

In the ¶ "Some geologists believe..." I would respectfully suggest moving the sentence that begins "One of the latest..." and the following one which refers to NatGeo News below to follow the reference to Lake Agassiz. This places them in chronological order, which in this instance is helpful since the November '07 Exeter article discusses "Noah's flood kick-started European farming" and the later Southampton article states, "...I hope this will counter some recent ...misguided accounts of the spread of farming." -thus placing the conflicting opinions in direct juxtaposition.Mannanan51 (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2011 (UTC)mannanan51

Noah's Ark

The article states that a flood myth is a symbolic narrative. Noah's Ark is not written as a "symbolic narrative", therefore it does not belong in this article. Zenkai _talk 20:54, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

You will need reliable third party references that state that otherwise it's just your opinion?Theroadislong (talk) 20:57, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Have you read it? It is most certainly not written in a symbolic style. Zenkai _talk 20:58, 28 February 2012 (UTC)