Talk:Kurt Cobain

Addiction and Death - Errors/NPOV/Lack of Citation

The "Addiction and Death" section, to me at least, seems desperately in need of citation. It's poorly structured and gives an inaccurate representation of the timeline leading up to Kurt's death. There's also a considerable amount of unsubstantiated editorializing.

I tried to add dates (as well as a cited incident) but I would really like to see some sort of citation for each incident. As it stands I think the date of the Rome incident is incorrect (presently March 6th, should be March 4th, I believe) Tarcieri 22:26, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I went through and created a more granular timeline of the dates leading up to Kurt's death. Not exactly sure what the MoS says on this sort of thing... perhaps it should be a bulleted list? Does 1994 really need to be mentioned after each date? I also tried to add a citatation for the incidents described on each date. Tarcieri 23:10, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

I noticed the reference to Kurt jumping a six foot wall at Exodus Recovery Center was readded shortly after I removed it. I googled for this extensively and was only able to find references to it in the Wikipedia article. If someone cannot provide a citation for this incident I think it really ought to be removed. Tarcieri 23:39, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Halperin & Wallace, Who Killed Kurt Cobain?, p 93:

"On Friday night, after visits from Gibby Haynes of the Butthole Surfers and an unidentified woman, Kurt stepped outside to smoke a cigarette at about seven P.M. He then climbed over a six-foot fence in the yard and took a taxi to the airport, where he booked a first-class seat to Seattle on Delta Flight 788 that night."

Wall = fence. I'll fix it. -- ChrisB 23:43, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Awesome, thanks Tarcieri 00:25, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

BTW - I also removed the two paragraphs about Courtney using Rohypnol. The claim goes nowhere. Nobody contests that it was Courtney's prescription, so a paragraph about her using the stuff is redundant. And the assertion that Courtney tried to intentionally drug him doesn't make sense if he told the doctor it was an accident and if the doctor himself believes it was an accident. (An intentional drugging would have made it look more like a suicide attempt.) If Grant's the one putting forth the theory, then it should be ignored, granted that he wasn't in anyway involved in the first attempt.

There are enough legitimate elements surrounding Kurt's death that we don't need to cover true conspiracy theories. -- ChrisB 00:52, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

I'm wondering if at this point the "Addiction and Death" section ought to be broken up into two different ones: one dealing with drug addiction, and one of a timeline of events leading up to Kurt's death, starting with the Rome incident Tarcieri 00:56, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

We're thinking alike - I was working on that in another window. -- ChrisB 01:00, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Oddly enough I was thinking of deleting the whole schpiel about Courtney drugging Kurt with Rohypnol right before you did it Tarcieri 01:44, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

Heroin lies in this article

Two points:

• There is no accurate test to determine how much of an opiate someone has consumed. Further, heroin is rapidly converted into morphine thus you can only test for remaining metabolites, which in this case are merely acetic acid. Thus, no doctor ever said Cobain consumed 225mg of heroin.
• The STANDARD dosage for heroin is 5mg. Thus, someone completely made up this overdose figure.

Tom Grant claims that Cobain must have injected at least 225mg of heroin before his death, according to the levels in his bloodstream, and as it says in this wiki article, that he believes this was far beyond the toxic level of dosage. Though I read that a publication said that addicts usually would use 300-500mg per day. From: "Prescription of Narcotics for Heroin Addicts: Main Results of the Swiss National Cohort Study - Volume One. Uchtenhagen, A;Dobler-Mikola, A.; Steffen, T; Gutzwiller, F.; Blattler, R; Pfeifer, S. Karger; Basel; 1999" [1] . Perhaps it should be mentioned in this article of the falseness of his statement? Peoplesunionpro 01:57, 6 October 2005 (UTC)

300-500mg per DAY versus 225mg in one sitting. That's like saying that shotgunning 12 beers in one sitting won't hurt you because people can drink 20 beers in a day. Those are two different statements - I don't see how 300-500mg per day debunks Grant's claim. You'll need a more specific medical reference than that one.

The general range used in the study isn't the same as a toxic dosage limit. Even the heroin article on this site says "Several studies done in the 1920s gave addicts doses of 1600mg-1800mg of heroin in one sitting, and no adverse effects were reported." [2]. Peoplesunionpro 16:13, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

And, as for the first post in this section - while I have no specific knowledge related to the field, I would assume that the body would stop metabolizing heroin not long after death. -- ChrisB 03:46, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

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la vie n'est rien sans nirvana j'aurais aimer que kurt sois vivant car a cause de ça tout mes potes sont morts et je suis le dernier sur la liste a être vivant .you can't fire me cause i quit.ce je serais au nirvana.j'embrasse tout mes fan de kurt cobain,dave&krist a la place de kurt j'auris dit un mot a mes fans dans ma lettre mais peut être qu'il n'a pas eu le temps il etait trop présser pour atteindre le nirvana comme moi adieu a mes parents

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Could we please get that in English? --Pinkunicorn

My french is a little rusty, but it starts off saying that life is nothing without nirvana, and kind of mummers off. Looks like a candidate for BadJokesAndOtherDeletedNonsense. -- Stephen Gilbert

This is what babelfish spat out:

• • time-out** the life be nothing without nirvana I have like that Kurt be alive bus because of that all my pal be die and I be the last on the list have be alive you can' T fire me cause I quit.ce I be with nirvana.j' embrace all my fan of Kurt cobain, dave&krist have the place of Kurt I auris say a word have my fans in my letter but can be that it have not have the time it be too présser to reach the nirvana like me good-bye have my parent

Looks like a suicide note to me -- WP

I'd say call for help, but given the subject of the article, I would move more towards sarcasm (but then, that's just how my sick, twisted, evil mind works -- Jim Regan 20:31 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

My french is somewhat better. here is my translation:

Life is nothing without Nirvana. I would love for Kurt to be alive because all my pals are dead and I am the last one on the list that is alive (that line didnt make sense, but that's what it says.) You can't fire me, because I quit. I have reached Nirvana (probably buddhist Nirvana.). I embrace all my fellow Kurt Cobain fans. Dave and Krist have the place of Kurt. I would like to say a word to my fans in my letter but maybe there is no time. It is very important to attain nirvana like me. Good bye to my parents.

definately sounds like a suicide note. Firestorm

• However, that wasn't true French, and was probably translated very roughly or on computer. This leads me to believe that it was a teenager that wrote that, and a young teenager at that, and that it was written in French as a joke, so that we wouldn't be able to translate it fast. Most likely a hoax and probably deserves a BJAODN nomination.

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I removed the stuff claiming that "most feel his death was inadequately investigated" - such a claim is impossible to substantiate, and also the claim that he was a "musical genius". I liked Nirvana's music as well, but this is an encyclopedia article, not a tribute site. --Robert Merkel.

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Need to integrate these:

• Journals by Kurt Cobain ISBN 1573222321
• Heavier Than Heaven: A Biography of Kurt Cobain by Charles R. Cross ISBN 0786865059 -- Jim Regan 20:31 10 Jul 2003 (UTC)

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Implications that Kurt's death was a murder leave this page's accuracy in dispute

How does Cobain, depressed and in a heroin-induced haze, committed suicide at the age of 27 imply that the death was murder? The article merely states the fact that some people believe that it was not murder. RickK 04:47, 10 Nov 2003 (UTC)~

Homies wanna ride!

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Shouldn't we use the word 'homosexual' instead of 'queer' at the beginning of the article? --Easty 17:10, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The offensive terms have been changed to 'gay'. -Erolos 20:21, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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The sentence "Cobain as a child was prescribed Ritalin, which later led to his heroin addiction" is ridiculous.

I agree! If someone could reword the absurd claim? -Erolos 20:21, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I very much agree. How did that get in there? Someone should fix it. BLANKFAZE | (что??) 22:18, 26 Dec 2004 (UTC)

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I think it sounds like he was murdered. Just because someone says, "Oh, he was murdered." doesn't make it true. There is some evidence that makes it seem like a suicide, but there is also some evidence that makes it seem like a murder. To be honest, there is no real way to know, so really you shouldn't sit here and bitch about how you think you're right. I am not saying I'm right, but I think it's disrespectful to Kurt for you to make it public that you think you're right when you COULD be wrong. Kurt is the only one who knows how he died, and IF there is a killer they would know too, but I'm not saying he was for sure killed. I just think you guys sound pompous trying to prove that he wasn't murdered. Why should it matter so much that you prove that theory wrong?

Marriage

I don't see how his affinity and relations to other rockers has anything to do with his marriage... T2X

Category:Murder victims

I believe, for the sake of NPOV, that we should add this category to the article. Categorizing this article as only a suicide and not a murder as well favors only one POV. -- LGagnon 03:02, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

• I strongly oppose this. First of all, you can't logically categorise someone in both categories. Secondly, categorising this article only as a suicide and not a murder doesn't favour one POV, it favours the official POV of the investigating authorities and one that is widely accepted. I recognise the holes in he suicide theory — but as far as I am concerned, in this encyclopedia, legal findings should be regarded as fact. BLANKFAZE | (что??) 03:21, 2 Feb 2005 (UTC)

• • But that is favoring one POV. Are you suggesting that we should not follow the Wikipedia mission statement just because the majority view (which we are not supposed to favor over others) is accepted by legal authorities? According to Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, NPOV is "absolute and non-negotiable". -- LGagnon 03:31, Feb 2, 2005 (UTC)

• • • SUICIDE IS MURDER! You're murdering yourself, therefore it should be categorized as murder. That's why suicide is considered a sin - "Thou shalt not kill." Well, when you kill yourself, you're killing someone... And purposefully! Therefore it is murder. Suicide is just a word that means you murdered yourself. Homocide is a word that means you murdered someone else. Either way, both equal murder.

• • • • The question is not if suicide is murder - which it is not. Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, and suicide is not a crime. This is besides the point. The question is if we should give recognition that Kurt was murdered. While you may think that he was - and I happen to be one of the most fervent believers of this - the offical report is that he comitted suicide. Until the Seattle Police Department or other federal authorities say otherwise, the verdict stands as is.

Nirvana Fan Club

The description for this link is a bit long and looks more like an advertisement than a description of a resource. -- LGagnon 01:27, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

His sponser

Gold Mountain Entertainment First of all, to everyone who thinks Kurdt Cobains death was a suicide, your wrong. Second, in response to a statement I read, Michael DeWitt was not the only one involved, but Courtney and a man named Allen Wrench was also. If you still think I'm full of it, ponder this: Why would Kurdt load three bullets into a gun when he only needs one? How would he be able to use, untie his tourniqet, put all of his paraphenelia neatly away , roll his sleeve back down position himself, and still be concious enough, or at all, to blow his head off with three times the lethal dose of a heavy heroine addict? There's no physical way and no doctor as of yet can explain it. Feel free to reply.

• How could a possibly bisexual, anemic, heroin addicted, mediocre guitar player from a redneck town in the Washington boonies become the biggest rock star of the 90's? Anything's possible.

• Just saying "you're wrong" and citing facts from a terrible book isn't a very convincing argument.

Boddah

Is there are proof of the Boddah thing that appears on here and gets changed now and then? I'd like to see something tangible pointing to this being true, and it should have some exact details to settle this. -- LGagnon 19:43, Apr 12, 2005 (UTC)

The French Guy

That is very sad that someone has left a suicide note on Wikipedia. Very sad. 11 years, and still people are offing themselves because of him. People from France (or Canada or whatever)! It is amazing Kurt has had that much of an influence on the world. I feel sad for that guy one guy... but really, he had to post on Wikipedia? Wouldn't a Nirvana forum have been enough? By the way, I believe Kurt was murdered. (www.justiceforkurt.com) Also, one other little detail-- "You can't fire me because I quit" is a lyric from the song "Scentless Apprentice".

• I nominate this for BJAODN. Anyone second it? Firestorm 00:12, Apr 20, 2005 (UTC)

• If its a real suicide note than no but if its just a joke then yes. Jobe6 July 4, 2005 20:38 (UTC)

• There is no way that somebody would honestly think that the Kurt Cobain talk page would be the best place to post an actual suicide note. However, you hear about things like Brandon Vedas and the Armin Meiwes case and you have to stop and think "Well, maybe this dude did, in fact, kill himself 11 years behind schedule." Eitherway, verify this first. Refugee621 02:36, 30 September 2005 (UTC)

A look at the IP address reveals that he or she is from Canada.

Influences

Would someone kindly add a footnote regarding the fact that Kurt himself stated that Smells Like Teen Spirit was his attempt to write a song like the Pixies, whose albums Surfer Rosa/Come on Pilgrim he thought were seminal in his musicianship.

cats

I removed some cats that were unnecessary because he is already part of a subcat. I have also removed the punk rock musicians category because Cobain was not primarily a punk musician -- he was a grunge musician, and was only punk in as much as grunge and punk are very closely related. 17:22, Jun 16, 2005 (UTC)

Category:Murder victims continued

I'd like to repoen discussion on the murder victims category? I'm inclined to think it should be included because there's a fairly large faction of people who believe it. Alternatively, we could have a category for Category:Possible murder victims or something... as a matter of fact, if I could think of anybody else to put in that category, I'd probably do it now. Tuf-Kat 01:55, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

To be fair, his suicide was also a "possible suicide" (which I don't think we have a category for either). As for who else to put in the "Possible murder victims" category, Edgar Allan Poe might be a good candidate. -- LGagnon 02:23, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Maybe just a Category:Disputed cause of death? And Napoleon Bonaparte, I think. I wonder how Poe and Napoleon are categorized... Tuf-Kat 03:32, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Neither one gives a category for the cause of death. Maybe that's better in cases where the cause is unsure. Tuf-Kat 03:35, Jun 17, 2005 (UTC)

Why not a Category:Controversial death? Seems to cover all the chatter surrounding Cobain's deaths without making too many assumptions. Any objections?--Weebot 18:25, 4 October 2005 (UTC)

68.191.51.49, do you have an objection to this?

I'm all in favor of a category for disputed deaths. A list would be nice, as you could go into more details, but I am kind of biased towards lists. Tenn 16:39, 30 December 2005 (UTC)

If you dispute this, you also have to do it for Paul McCartney's page. Theuniversal 21:25, Aug 19, 2005 (UTC)

Massive changes in Addiction and death section

Several anonymous changes have been made to the Addiction and death section that completely rewrite the facts about it. Can someone cite some references for these changes? I'm putting an accuracy warning on it for now. -- LGagnon 14:23, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

I've reverted all of 64.146.105.114's edits for now. He has blatantly ignored the accuracy dispute and removed the warning without discussing it first. If he wants to argue in favor of his changes, he should do so here first and show some references before further changing the facts about the article. -- LGagnon 18:50, Jun 20, 2005 (UTC)

Disembodied, stop reverting the article

Your picture is not fair use (it's a derivitive of a copyrighted work) and is not GFDL, whether you like to claim it or not. It is a clear copyright violation. Your picture will be deleted and that's that. -- LGagnon June 29, 2005 15:53 (UTC)

Heading image

I apologize about the copyright violation with my cropped image of the Rolling Stone cover, is it possible that I post the complete B&W scan of the cover? This image specifically: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurt_cobainrollingstonecover.jpg

The dramatic tones of the cover are more accurately portrayed than that of the one currently being used, as the black and white useage perfectly portrays Kurt in a more intimate context that exemplifies his artistic personality.

Please reply to my inquiry, thanks and sorry for the trouble. -- Disembodied

Which is the original RS cover, the B&W or the one currently used? That is the big issue here; we need to use a non-derivitive version of it (or at least one that isn't a copyright violation). As far as I can remember, the one we have is the original. And even if the B&W is perfectly legal, there's still one problem: you are uploading cropped images, which we can't use. Either upload the whole original, unchanged image or it is useless for the article. Either way, we really don't have any need for another image. This is an encyclopedia, not a fan page; we neither need nor want to hype up the subject matter. And even if we were doing such, the B&W image would not make a difference. Unless you can come up with a better reason to use it instead of the current image, I suggest letting this go. -- LGagnon June 29, 2005 20:42 (UTC)

From what I remember, yes, the one currently used is the original scan. I just feel it doesn't do justice for really portraying who Kurt was, and using the uncropped B&W scan does a more accurate job by providing more emphasis on the dramatic tones of the photograph. Perfectly tolerable for an artist like Kurt Cobain. If the cropping of the photograph is the issue, then I'd be fine with just using the uncropped B&W scan.

So, would it be alright if I simply used the complete, uncropped B&W scan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Kurt_cobainrollingstonecover.jpg) instead?

Sorry for any trouble, and thanks for your consideration. -- Disembodied

You still are not giving a good reason to use a different image. You are asking for the B&W because you personally prefer it, which is not reason enough to change it. There's no practical need for a change, and you have not presented one. And the image you have uploaded is still cropped; the right side is cropped and a small amount of the left seems to be missing (the former being a bigger problem than the latter). -- LGagnon June 29, 2005 21:51 (UTC)

I see your point, and apologize for the inconvienience. I just felt that the current image doesn't do enough justice for a figure as historically significant as Cobain. Putting a picture of him on the cover of a major media magazine as a heading image makes him look like a figure the media is obsessed with, a stereotype Kurt fought to disassociate himself with for his entire career.

However, seeing as the best possible representation of him is in the context of said major media magazine, it's somewhat of a paradox; and proves difficult to work around.

A heading image is one of the most important aspects of an article, it can have the ability to connect with a reader instantly upon viewing, and justify an article's overall mood or statement. Thats just why I thought using a B&W photo of that scan would prove more effective and dramatic in nature.

In any case, sorry for the trouble. Perhaps a portrait image of him not from a magazine cover, widely accepted as an accurate representation of Kurt would better portray him? -- Disembodied

Err, sorry for putting up that unsourced picture, but it's the cover of Cobain, a book that Rolling Stone put out that is a compilation of articles that they had written about him. It wasn't a cropped version of the RS cover. I think it looks nicer, and it should be as covered by fair use as the Rolling Stone cover. Would there be any objections to me placing it back as the heading image?--Weebot 01:38, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Just to throw in my support here: he's 100% correct. The cover of Cobain is that picture by itself, unaltered. [3] There's no title or author on the front; the title of the book is only on the spine. I'm certain that would be covered by fair use.

(Even if I personally think that picture sucks. I would far prefer to use either this one or an unaltered version of this one. The former was one of the most popular online after his death, but I think the latter best represents Kurt.) -- ChrisB 02:37, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

Wow, thank you for pointing the cover out to me, Weebot! I own that book, and have scanned it to get a bigger picture for the article. At last, a non derivative version of the picture that best represents Kurt Cobain.--Disembodied 05:08, 7 September 2005 (UTC)

Reference templates don't work

Several of the references are messed up by templates that aren't built to cover all the details of the references. I'm switching them back to manually written references, since these templates haven't been written to serve their purpose. -- LGagnon July 3, 2005 00:46 (UTC)

Buddhist?

Do we have any proof that that was his religion? I don't remember that ever being definitely stated in the article (where his ashes are kept doesn't prove it), nor has anyone presented evidence for this. -- LGagnon July 6, 2005 00:37 (UTC)

If Kurt Cobain wasn't a buddhist, why would it say on his suicde note To Boddah?

Boddah is not Buddha. They aren't the same thing. -- LGagnon 13:32, August 28, 2005 (UTC)

Boddah (pronounced (BOH-da) was Kurt's imaginary childhood friend, not Buddha.

Sample lyrics

The sample lyrics section seems a bit unneeded. We have a Wikiquote article for Kurt already, which we could move all these lyrics over to. Also, how many lines can we use before we've crossed over the line of fair use? New lines are constantly added, and are only pushing it without really contributing much to the encyclopediac value of the article. -- LGagnon 18:54, July 14, 2005 (UTC)

Please read Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information. This Sample lyrics section needs to be put into the Wikiquote article and removed from this one. -- LGagnon 21:37, July 25, 2005 (UTC)

born Kurdt?

Do we have a reference for this? It seems unlikely, as Kurt used the name once (in an album's credits) but was never mentioned in the press as having used a stage name regularly. -- LGagnon 21:33, July 27, 2005 (UTC)

No, born Kurt Donald Cobain, (at least) on Love Buzz/Big Cheese, Bleach and Nevermind (for "Monkey Photo", his name is spelled right where he's credited for "Vocals/Guitar") he is credited as Kurdt Kobain. I guess it has something to do with not revealing his real name. I mean, just look at Krist Novoselic he's credited by his nickname, Chris Novoselic, until In Utero. But your guess is just as good as me... -- noctrun 10:40, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Music with Meaning??

This statement is highly subjective and historicaly inaccurate, i.e. what defines 'music with meaning'? and meaning for whom? and meaning what? In addition 'grunge' was well under way as a genre before 'Smells like Teen spirit' was released. -- Slainz 12:19, August 4, 2005 (UTC)

Addressed the first part. I ran out of synonyms at the end of a lengthy rewrite. But while grunge may have been underway as a genre before Nirvana, it wasn't POPULAR before Nirvana. Soundgarden and Alice in Chains had modest followings before Nevermind broke, but neither were considered anything more than an extension of the Headbanger's Ball crowd. -- ChrisB 4:46, August 5, 2005 (UTC)

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Am I the only person who thinks the "See also" list of opiate casualty links makes for an annoying, imbalanced coda to this article?

How does one have too many credits to graduate high school, as it says in the "Early Life" section?

I know nothing about the American education system, but I assume it means he had too many credits still to get? M A Mason 17:37, 27 August 2005 (UTC)

More pictures?

For a person as significant to Rock as Kurt Cobain you'd normally expect a few pictures of him performing live and/or any where else. Is it possible that we add a few more pictures of the musical side of Kurt rather than the personal side (as close as the two may come)?--Disembodied

Graduation and Mother

What year/month did he drop out of high school, and did he and his mother reconcile or not? - RoyBoy ⁸⁰⁰ 06:30, 26 September 2005 (UTC)

Did Cobain move out of his mother's house when he got the guitar? The article starts out stating that he moved out when he dropped out of high school, but in the next paragraph implies that he moved out after getting the guitar? Carie 15:13, 13 February 2006 (UTC)

Chronology! (IOW What a mess!)

Since Grohl and Novoselic were mentioned BEFORE the Nirvana section, they must be named with full name, as otherwise this is bad writing style. I've changed this, yet I do not feel too well with it; I really doubt there should be so many Nirvana references in the 'Early Life' section. Thus there would not be an odd reference to Grohl and Novoselic out of the blue before the actual band's section. just my 2c -andy 80.129.88.61 01:49, 27 October 2005 (UTC)

First date of Heroin usage?

I could have sworn that in Journals Kurt mentioned something about trying heroin first in 1987, not in 1990. Could be wrong though. Anyone have any idea? Flyerhell 06:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Domestic Complaint

Since this article goes so indepth into the last few days of Cobains life, shouldn't the domestic incident in March 1994 be mentioned? I think this was the reason why Kurt couldn't buy the gun himself. Flyerhell 06:33, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Stomach Problems

This article also neglected to mention the fact that in 1993 or around that time, Kurt's stomach ailment was actually diagnosed as a pinched nerve. During the In Utero tour, Kurt's stomach actually wasn't bothering him all that much since he was finally diagnosed and treated for it. Flyerhell 06:36, 1 November 2005 (UTC)

Any source for this info?--24.20.181.127 06:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)

Yup, these are one of the first few links that came up from google when searching for it:

http://www.heroinhelper.com/bored/celebrities/Kurt_Cobain.shtml

"Cobain suffered from very painful stomach aches which he sought relief from through various drugs. It was not until 1993 that it was determined to be caused by a pinched nerve. At that time it was treated and stopped being such an important aspect of his life"

http://www.justiceforkurt.com/investigation/not_suicidal.shtml

"In the summer of 1993, Kurt experienced what he called "a miracle". After years of consulting specialists about his debilitating stomach pain, he found a doctor who finally diagnosed the problem - a pinched nerve relating to his scoliosis."

http://www.nirvanaclub.com/facts/nia/facts.txt

"A doctor attributed Kurt's horrendous stomach pains to a pinched nerve"

Granted, the first 2 are a little biased but you get the point. I am not sure of the ORIGINAL source, but I am almost 100% positive that he did in fact have a pinched nerve. Flyerhell 06:12, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

I don't think it's appropriate to include this information in the article without an original source: ie, Kurt talking about it in an interview. I've heard of the "pinched nerve" before, but always as a "possible" cause, not as the definitive cause. The version I've always heard was that Kurt saw several doctors who came up with varying conclusions, and that several surmised it might be a pinched nerve. -- ChrisB 17:56, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Bisexual Musicians

Is there a reason someone continuously removes Mr. Cobain from this list? A man who admits to at one time assuming himself gay and then later professing of being on the verge of living a bisexual lifestyle had Courtney Love not enetered the scene...

Um, if it quacks like a duck?

"Quacks like a duck"? Cobain said in the Advocate article that people insist on using to cite that he's bisexual (emphasis mine):

"I mean, I'm definitely gay in spirit, and I probably could be bisexual. But I'm married, and I'm more attracted to Courtney than I ever have been toward a person, so there's no point in trying to sow my oats at this point. [Laughs] If I wouldn't have found Courtney, I probably would have carried on with a bisexual lifestyle. But I just find her totally attractive in all ways."

http://www.nirvana-music.com/kurt-cobain-advocate-interview.html

He NEVER said he WAS bisexual, he said he COULD be. HE NEVER PURSUED A BISEXUAL LIFESTYLE. What do you think "no point in trying to sow my oats" means?

Next time, if you want to know why someone made an edit, how about checking the blasted History? THAT'S WHAT IT'S THERE FOR. I explained it every time I removed it, to the point of redundant absurdity.

And how about signing up for a login? Your IP has changed with every edit you've made. -- ChrisB 07:15, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

This whole debate is all about life phases. Lots of guys and gals have same-sex experiences during their formative years, and some of them think they must therefore be gay. In some cases they are indeed gay, but in the majority of cases they discover the opposite sex and never return to same-sex experiences. From everything I've ever read, Kurt Cobain is in the latter category. He experimented with sex with guys while growing up, and he even thought he might be gay at one time, but he went on to have only straight relationships, married Courtney Love and, as his private journals indicate, he did not consider himself gay. And that is a point that is often overlooked. Sexuality is as much about self-identification as it is about anything else. He was not gay, and he was not bisexual. (By the way, true bisexuality is very rare.) Occasionally eating a meal consisting only of vegetables does not make you a vegetarian. JackofOz 09:19, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

Why is it so damn hard for people to understand bisexuality? It means being attracted to BOTH. From everything we have gathered, he obviously was bisexual insofar that he stated himself that he suspected he would have continued living a bisexual "lifetsyle" had he not found Courtney Love. Just because he found a woman that he fell in love with and had children with her does not indicate his past is invalidated (e.g. it doesn't mean he's suddenly "straight"). We also have to take into account the fact that he stated these things in the early nineties, a time when bi visibillity was almost non-existent and therefore less socially acceptable to be known as such. We can obviously debate this forever for the man has passed, but for all logical purposes it would seem to be more than appropiate to place him in the category of bisexual musicians because he was both a musician and obviously bisexual. -- 67.0.220.56

"OBVIOUSLY"? Are you reading the same text I just quoted?!? Kurt said COULD BE.

And I would absoutely argue against the definition of bisexuality as simple attraction. Read Kurt's quote above, and you'll see that he's not using that definition. In his mind (and in the minds of the general population), bisexuality involves action.

Look, if someone can provide verifiable quotes from Kurt confirming his orientation, it would make the case easier to support. My issue here isn't a condemnation of bisexuality or homosexuality - only that I don't think it's responsible to label someone by their sexual preference if they never confirmed that they had said sexual preference. Every primary source I've seen quotes Kurt saying that he wondered if he was gay, not that he actually was.

It's one thing if we were talking about someone who made their sexual preference very public. But Kurt never did that. If he were bisexual, he never made it clear in a public manner. It's irresponsible for a journalistic endeavor to cast him that way if he never did so himself. -- ChrisB 19:57, 16 November 2005 (UTC)

I would argue that James Dean also belongs in the bisexuals list, but the only quote of him ever addressing his sexuality was vague and although we have accounts of his sexual forays from a few biographers, we'll never truly know. Hence I decided not to argue the same in his case. Being bisexual myself and knowing what we know today, Kurt Cobain seemed to be in a constant state of limbo with his sexual orientation. I definitely understand that he never self-identified as being bi, but I'm coming from the perspective that had he lived longer I think he would have eventually discovered that side of himself on his own terms. I came to this conclusion from everything I've read about him. Anyhow I'm obviously in the minority here, so I'll refrain from placing him back in the list. It just seemed obvious to me that he belonged there.

Kurt did write in his journals that he was not bisexual, but he did have bisexual friends. This comes from not only the man himself, but his personal journal(s). This bysexual thing should be taken with a grain of sault. SFrank85 05:37, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

The quote about "sowing my oats" simply meant that he wasn't about to fool around. It regards male and female and was applicable because he was in a relationship at the time. This may also be of interest:

"Kurt Cobain was bisexual, though it is not clear that he ever consummated this part of his persona. As a teen he was arrested and fined $180 for spraypainting "Homosex Rules" on an outside wall. He received also a thirty-day suspended sentence (Come As You Are, pp. 39-40). Furthermore in the February 1991 issue of The Advocate, Kurt says, "If I wouldn't have found Courtney, I probably would have carried on with a bisexual lifestyle." At other times Cobain claimed to be heterosexual, but the Advocate interview is unambiguous." http://www.nndb.com/people/939/000025864/ --AWF

can i just point out im bisexual, and you dont have to show your effection of members of the same sex to be bisexual. nor do you have to admit it publicly.kurt could have been bisexual with out telling the public. he could have also been undersided, why is it so importent about his sexuality? -- 84.187.163.195

I've got the same question for you: why is it so important for him to be bisexual? The simple fact is that we cannot legitimately prove that Kurt was bisexual, and Wiki guidelines insist that we not include unsourced and unproven statements. PERIOD. Your entire statement is speculation - "kurt could have been bisexual". I don't disagree with that, but we cannot PROVE that he was, as there's not enough to go on. Therefore, by Wiki guidelines, we can't include it. -- ChrisB 21:37, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Question

Is there a way to found out what exactly was written in Kurt Cobain's suicide note? TearAwayTheFunerealDress 16:16, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

It's around on the 'net. Example -- ChrisB 19:38, 8 December 2005 (UTC)

Kurt's Gear?

Do we really need a section for Kurt's gear in this article? It's not even remotely comprehensive, and one parse through kurtsequipment.com shows how lacking it is. It seems absolutely redundant to contain some nominal amount of information, when that site is so phenomenally detailed. We've already got a link to it, why do we need anything more? -- ChrisB 01:30, 13 December 2005 (UTC)

Fandalism

Its still bias, and repetitive fandalism is getting it nowhere, and stops it from been a neutral article, there is nothing mentioned in the article about Kurt Cobain’s less than technically talented guitar playing compared to 80s guitarists (Which would infact make Nirvana “visual style over musical substance“ in a way), none of the 80s bands claimed to place visual style over musical substance, its an opinion, not a fact, you don’t see how that is totally bias in a supposed neutral article?? - Deathrocker 06:56, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

It's not bias. Cobain talked about it. Maybe it's not obvious, but this is an article about Cobain. Another point that doesn't seem to be obvious: what bands think about themselves is often significantly different than how the band is actually perceived. Nirvana never called themselves grunge. Does that mean they're not grunge? -- ChrisB 09:03, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Then find a direct link with an exact quote of Kurt offering that opinion and put it in quotation marks in the article, instead of offering it up as factual info.

An example of why the article is bias; Yngwie Malmsteen and Michael Angelo(80s guitarists) have a glamorous image yet are a thousand times more talented on guitar than Kurt Cobain could ever hope to be so that throws the "visual style over musical substance" as factual info right out of the window, if anything Nirvana were image over musical substance, sure the image wasn't glamorous but an image all the same, the only competent musician in the band was Dave Grohl... the opinions you offer up in the article only cater for the Nirvana fanboy frame of mind, it is supposed to be a Neutral article. - Deathrocker 09:22, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Are you out of your mind? How does Yngwie or Angelo count as either "arena rock" or "dance pop"? Or are you at the point that you're not even reading what you're editing? -- ChrisB 09:36, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

They are part of "glam metal" which infact was the predominant style that Grunge swayed the mainstream away from for a more stripped down look and style (Which for some reason you keep editing out for your bias info, lord knows why??), you are offering opinion from which you have no source that Kurt Cobain even said those things, and if he did and you can somehow pull a reliable reference out of somewhere, it needs to be quoted as an opinion of his, not factual information.

- Deathrocker 09:46, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Idiot. I removed "glam metal" from that list of genres several edits ago, as per your complaint. Hit the history and look for my edit that includes the phrase "minor rewrite as a weak attempt to appease deathrocker", and you'll notice that it's not there, and hasn't been there in any of the edits since.

OHHHHH, wait, but you added it back to make your point. That's GENIUS. -- ChrisB 09:50, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

I added it back in the interest of keeping it a FACTUAL article, something which you have no interest in doing. Your attempt to "appease" by removing a genre that I am a fan of was very touching I must say, but I'm interested in fact and I'm sure the people who want to read an article on somebody are interested in non bias facts too. - Deathrocker 09:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

"The arrival of Cobain's best known song, "Smells Like Teen Spirit", marked the beginning of a dramatic shift of popular music away from 1980s glam metal, arena rock and dance-pop for a more stripped down look and sound."

What exactly is your grievance with that line? Its not like it is more favourable of either movement, its straight down the middle. - Deathrocker 10:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

For starters, how is grunge a more stripped down sound? The band actually criticized Nevermind themselves because they felt it sounded like arena rock.

The single most-often cited comment in the music media between 1991 and 1994 was that music was returning to credibility. Glam (hair) metal was seen as "superficial" because the lyrics largely dealt with sex and the looks were considered more important than the music. (A point, I might add, asserted in Glam metal.) The introduction of alternative rock ushered in a return to music more "honest" lyrical content and away from the "perceived superficiality".

The problem is that it was all a perception; there wasn't that much difference in music before or after. But the most important element of it was that perception.

You give me the choice of your edit and the one that was here, and I'd take the latter without question. Yours is a far weaker statement that honestly isn't factually accurate.

I'll note this specifically: the line in the article was "perceived superficiality". It doesn't say that glam metal was superficial, it says it was perceived as being superficial. Which is a factual statement. It was certainly the case in the immediate years of Nirvana's popularity. -- ChrisB 10:55, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

"For starters, how is grunge a more stripped down sound?"

Have you ever tried to play a Nirvana song?.. it is stripped down in the same way punk rock is stripped down.

Many people who follow metal and rock cite Nirvana as the downfall of rock n’ roll, but that is also not included in the article because it is one sided opinion just as is "perceived superficiality" of any other genre by fans of grunge music who are apposed to 80s music, its not a neutral viewpoint. - Deathrocker 12:24, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

sexualism

he was NOT bisexual! GOD DAMNIT! he even wrote in his journals about that! courtney it is bisexual but he was not. and add german and english american in the catogories 'cause he was not only irish. in the book HTH there are many useful information so stop fucking his article.

I'd suggest learning proper grammar before continuing further. If you'd like hints however, this always helps:

"Kurt Cobain was bisexual, though it is not clear that he ever consummated this part of his persona. As a teen he was arrested and fined $180 for spraypainting "Homosex Rules" on an outside wall. He received also a thirty-day suspended sentence (Come As You Are, pp. 39-40). Furthermore in the February 1991 issue of The Advocate, Kurt says, "If I wouldn't have found Courtney, I probably would have carried on with a bisexual lifestyle." At other times Cobain claimed to be heterosexual, but the Advocate interview is unambiguous." http://www.nndb.com/people/939/000025864/ --AWF

Also worthy of note is the fact that Courtney Love is, herself, not bisexual. --AWF

Is the sign for real?

Is the Aberdeen sign real? There are other pictures on the net, and they look different. Plus, the plants on the photo, which are obviously in front of the sign, misteriously appear in the back of the bottom part.

See: [4] Notice that the bottom part of the sign is attached to the top part by three vertical pieces, whereas in the picture included in the article, the bottom part is attached to side poles. Photo seems edited to me.

See: [5] Looks like a before/after photo editing.

Any first hand or reliable sources as to this sign actually existing as portrayed?

ironcito 22:34, 31 December 2005 (UTC)

Well, I found your observation quite interesting. Maybe this link may help you in your quest. --Greedy 00:03, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

wow, no doubt that photo is a fake. notice the file name is even "sign_after.jpg". i've removed it to this talk page until this gets sorted out. the first link you provided definitely looks photoshopped as well. good looking out, literally . . . this is very strange . . . --Heah ^talk 00:20, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

File:Sign after.jpg

The sign put up as a tribute to Kurt Cobain located in Aberdeen, WA.

I've emailed the aberdeen parks and recreation department to see if they have any information on this. --Heah ^talk 00:26, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The picture is a mockup. The real thing (which can't be used on Wiki).

Another pic: http://www.kurtcobainmemorial.org/ -- ChrisB 01:11, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I'll email the responsibles of the sign ( [6] ) and I'll ask them for a picture that can be used on the Wikipedia. Let's see if we're lucky. --Greedy 01:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Mockup, developed by Paul Fritts and offered for free use via The Nirvana Fan Club fansite. (The sign does actually exist, but no other PD pictures are yet available.)

That is the caption of that picture, so the one who uploaded it knew it was a fake! --Greedy 01:50, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Check the edit date on the picture. I investigated and got an answer.

For the record, I wasn't the original uploader. It was fully deleted during Wiki's initial campaign to delete uncited pictures, before anyone knew there was a problem with the picture. I reuploaded it. (The current auto-deletion system gives more time to fix the problem before the pictures are deleted.) -- ChrisB 01:53, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Weird thing is, the Kurt Cobain Memorial Project also has the mockup photo on their site. [7] [8] Furthermore, their main page shows the whole sign being put up, when supposedly it was only the bottom part that was added (evidenced by the "before" photo). The nirvanaclub.com photo also seems artificial to me. I've found several news stories about the sign being put up, even on MTV [9]. So either this is a rumor gone wild, or the sign actually exists but for some reason there are only fake or dubious pictures of it. ironcito 07:45, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

Not that it proves anything, but the article says they replaced the entire sign because the old one was rusting badly and had a bullet hole in it. (You can see the hole above the "r" in the mockup, and it's no longer there in the NC photo.) If the NirvanaClub photo is fake, then it means that NC and the KCMP are in on the hoax, as the NC photo was taken by a friend of the site's owner, not by the KCMP. -- ChrisB 19:57, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

I Googled every possible combination of words I could come up with, and there seem to be only three photos of the sign on the internet. The one of the sign being put up, the fake one (edited and original) and the Nirvana Club photo. It's strange that such a symbolic place has been barely photographed, but the fact that there are several articles about it leads me to believe that it does exist. Anyway, I left a message in User:Georgiacmt's talk page. He lives "just outside Aberdeen, WA", and has contributed to Talk:Aberdeen,_Washington. BTW, the fake photo is also in Aberdeen's article and two others, so I'd recommend removing it from those too. ironcito 23:09, 1 January 2006 (UTC)

The other option would be to leave the pics until we find a suitable replacement, clearly stating that they are mock-ups . . . --Heah ^talk 01:01, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Sex with Michael Stipe?

Seems doubtful to me, but an anonymous editor added "His wife Courtney Love has said that he has had sex with Michael Stipe of R.E.M.." Seems like Vandalism of course, but I didn't want to delete it outright, just in case it is true. Therefore I request a source. The editor has a history of both vandalism and useful contributions, so I couldn't be sure based on previous actions. Assume good faith and all that. M A Mason 17:51, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

I've heard this before, so it isn't outright vandalism; but i certainly agree it should be cited if it is to remain. --Heah ^talk 17:58, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Honestly, I don't think it should be here at all. Even if Courtney said it, it's gossip. (And she's not the most reliable source on the planet.) Neither Cobain nor Stipe talked about it publicly if it happened. Courtney's initial comments on Stipe and Cobain were only that they were becoming good friends. Stipe told Rolling Stone that the two were simply starting a collaboration. -- ChrisB 19:57, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

Just to comment; if there is a source for her actually saying it, then surely it's relevant to the debate over whether or not he was bisexual - true or not. It would of course need to be included also that Stipe has never confirmed it, and nor has anyone else. M A Mason 23:43, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

The day you believe Courtney Love is the day where you will believe everyone.SFrank85 05:33, 3 January 2006 (UTC)

Could we please stop the snide ridicule of Courtney Love. It reeks of misogyny, and frankly after twelve years, it's getting pretty old.--Pinko1977 02:27, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

"Misogyny"? Wow, I'd almost forgotten. 1995. "Guys only criticize Courtney because she's a strong woman." It has nothing to do with the fact that she often says things publicly that are either completely untrue or (at the very least) misleading.

The difference between now and ten years ago is that back then, a lot of women saw her as a role model. I have a feeling at this point that the percentages of men and women who think she's batshit fucking crazy are just about even.

BTW - the guaranteed way to encourage people to snidely ridicule someone is to ask them to stop. (It was going to stop on its own.) -- ChrisB 03:14, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to think that'll stop, but I doubt it. Folks will be trashing Ms. Love long after you and I are gone.--Pinko1977 05:55, 4 January 2006 (UTC)

If it's an allegation from his former-wife, then a mention with a disclaimer may be in order. The same has applied to David Bowie's article in the past (including his former wife's allegation of an affair with Mick Jagger). --AWF

WHY DID THEY REMOVE THE PIC OF HIM AT AGE 15?!?!?

Yo, why the hell would they do that?

It was unsourced! --User:Carie

Shotgun Devastation

I'm a bit concerned about Wikipedia's claim that there was no noticeable trauma to Cobain's head (or that he was initially "thought to be sleeping"). According to CelebrityMorgue.com, for example: "The shotgun blast destroyed his head to the point where he was not recognizable; the body was identified from fingerprints."

These allegations that claim only a trickle of blood was noticeable sound ridiculous at best. Keep in mind that death resulted from a close-range shotgun blast to the head. --AWF

Much confusion seems to be the result of the misplaced image of Kurt shooting himself in the head with a large, long shotgun capable of blowing heads clean off. In actuality, the shotgun used was a very small and light automatic shotgun loaded with possibly the weakest available shotshell at the time (20 gauge 2 1/2 inch Winchester AA with 7/8 ounce load of 8 shot and about 12 grains of powder, designed for skeet shooting and not hunting). Basically, this load is not much over HALF as powerfull (in terms of powder charnge) of what a typical hunting or home defence shotgun load would consist (comparing to 12 gauge 2-3/4 00 buckshot with 30 grains of powder). I think the result of no exit wound from the contact headshot and relatively little amount of blood visible in the scene (actually the SPD police report at page 3 talks about a "large drying puddle of blood", just that it was just below and left of the body, invisible from the French door windows, and not spattered all around from a violent cranial disruption) is entirely consistent with the loading used.

Also take note that the barrel lenght of the shotgun (Remington Model 11 Sportsman) was just 22 inches, with about 26 inches from the end of the barrel to the trigger, so considering that Kurt at 5'10" was close to average height and probably had arms close the average length of 23", reaching the trigger with the fingertips is entirely possible considering the mouth position being somewhat above the shoulders even when looking downwards. --85.156.128.99 07:49, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

• In Heavier than Heaven, Charles R. Cross states thus: "Despite rumors to the contrary, the corpse was recognizable as Kurt [my emphasis], though the scene was ghastly: The hundreds of pellets from the shotgun shell had expanded his head and disfigured him." (Epilogue, p. 358) In this account, there is damage to Kurt's head, but it directly contradicts the account from CelebrityMorgue.com. I'll argue that Cross' assertion is more credible.--Pinko1977 04:40, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

The electrician who found Kurt's body said that when he entered the greenhouse, it looked like Kurt was sleeping, and that he noticed only a trickle of blood coming out his right ear. I have this interview on videotape and can cite it specifically. (It was televised regularly during the weekend of Kurt's death.) I don't think any reasonable human being could confuse a person with their head destroyed for someone who was sleeping. Keep in mind: this is a person who ACTUALLY SAW KURT'S BODY. This isn't a third-hand report.

If that's not enough, the picture taken outside the greenhouse while the investigation was taking place showed no noticable blood or debris around his body. For a while, some conspiracy theorists believed that there wasn't a shotgun blast at all. (Richard Lee was the first to make that claim, as he actually climbed the tree with a videocamera and claimed that he saw no blood anywhere.) But that's kinda beyond the point.

I suspect most of the claims like that of CelebrityMorgue.com come from the fake autopsy photos that spread in the 90s. The most common photo claiming to be Kurt's autopsy photo was actually that of a Bosnian girl that had been hit by a mortar round. -- ChrisB 05:03, 31 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm a noob here. According to police report reproduced on The Smoking Gun (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/kurt/kcincident3.html), there was a "large drying puddle of blood to the left of the victim" [Cobain] (in the photo, you only see the right) and "obvious trauma to the head". I think we can all agree that eye-witness testimony isn't one hundred percent reliable. My question, why would the police lie? What possible reason would they have to invent a puddle of blood or trauma to the head? And why should we accept the point of view of Richard Lee? Has anyone seen the video he speaks of? The only photo I've seen of the crime seen shows Cobain's right side and is was shot through a window. So no one should expect to see blood, or anything else. Further, I think this should be mentioned in the article (with a link to the documents on the Smoking Gun).Ingres77 07:00, 27 March 2006 (UTC)

Categories?

Would anyone object to listing this article in Category:Unsolved murders?

-User:Carie

I think most people would, though there is evidence for a murder, there is no clear cause of death, ie it could have been muder or suicide - no one's sure. We can't say it's an unsolved murder if we haven't even decided it to be a murder. Many people do see the case as an unsolved murder but it doesn't make it so. Previously someone discussed a cause of death disputed category, which I would be very much in favour of. M A Mason 19:51, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

• I object. This "murder" theory is conjecture at best, and gross exploitation at worst. The last time I looked, Wikipedia was in the business of verifiable facts, not conjecture and rumors. And as far as the State of Washington is concerned, there is no dispute: Kurt Cobain committed suicide.--Pinko1977 20:05, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

The problem with your argument is that the theory is emphatically not conjecture and rumors. Grant, Halperin, and Wallace have a great deal of evidence that legitimately questions the suicide conclusion. And, even if you ignore what they say, there are notable and obvious mistakes in the official police report (the door locks, etc). The Seattle PD walked into the scene, looked everything over, declared suicide (day of, mind you) and went home. When other evidence (such as the toxicology report and the firearm report that noted that there were no fingerprints on the gun) came in that questioned their conclusion, they refused to investigate further. "Suicide" was declared, not proven - there's a titantic difference. And their "proof" fails, given the mistakes.

By comparison, the people who conjecture that Kristen Pfaff was murdered have no evidence whatsoever, simply conjecture that she had cleaned up her habit and was in the middle of moving out of Seattle. Some people claim River Phoenix was murdered, but, again, there's no evidence to prove it, and everything available points to an accidental drug overdose. Those are drastically different situations than Cobain's.

At the same time, I strongly object to "Unsolved Murder" as well, for the same reason I object to inclusion in Suicide categories. Nobody can conclusively prove that it was murder or suicide. Many people are certain that it was murder, and many people are certain it was suicide. "Cause of death disputed" covers the ground without associating with any one person's point of view.

If there were a "suspected suicide" or an "officially declared suicide" category, I wouldn't have a problem including this article there. But declaring it either murder or suicide is POV, plain and simple. -- ChrisB 20:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

I agree with inclusion in the "Cause of death disputed" category, because the dispute about Kurt's death IS true---and yes, the official ruling of suicide by the Seattle police was made too hastily and is problematic (but don't expect a reopening of the case anytime soon. Cops rarely admit their mistakes.) By the way, I wouldn't cite anything that Grant, Halperin or Wallace have published. The "evidence" they've provided over the years is grossly lacking in credibility, and experts on toxicology and forensics have publicly questioned the validity of their claims.--Pinko1977 02:11, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

What about Category:Disappeared people? Before he was discovered dead he was classified as a missing person, according to this article. --User:Carie

Disappeared category is for those people who never turned up.I.e., they can't be living people or dead people.

ConDem 03:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)

I fear that some people may take this the wrong way, but shouldn't this article be moved from Category:Entertainers who died in their 20s to Category:Entertainers who committed suicide in their 20s? He is legally recognized to have committed suicide. --DDG 20:20, 10 March 2006 (UTC)

Birthplace Contradiction!

In the bio template, Kurt's birthplace is given as Hoquiam, while the article's body clearly states that he was born at Greys Harbor Community Hospital in Aberdeen. In fact, all reputable sources give Kurt's birthplace as Aberdeen. Can we correct this now?--Pinko1977 20:10, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

I think the confusion is because his parents were living in Hoquiam at the time. But it's undeniable that Grays Harbor is in Aberdeen. (All you have to do is look at their website.) -- ChrisB 23:40, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Date of death?

Don't we know exactly what day he died? Why the circa? Ckessler

April 5th was estimated as the day of death by the Coroner's Office. We do not know for certain what day he died, but that was their best guess. (His body was found on April 8th, which is why a large number of Nirvana fans, particularly those who were fans at the time of his death, mark that day instead of the 5th.) -- ChrisB 06:07, 23 February 2006 (UTC)

Well, the death certificate states April 5th, shouldn't this be more correct then? -- 195.184.103.239

The date they used on the death certificate is the coroner's estimate. It's not like there's some magic death fairy that comes down and declares the exact date of death. They can't be 100% sure when he died, but April 5th is the best guess. (Take note that the death certificate says: "Pronounced dead: April 8, 1994".) -- ChrisB 21:56, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

Pixies

There should be some mention of the Pixies in the Musical influences section. They're probably the most obvious influence on Cobain's style out there. There's a bit about it in the grunge article; I suggest using some of that info here. -- LGagnon 00:19, 13 March 2006 (UTC)

Just out of curiosity. Is Kurt giving the finger in the Hawaii photo with Courtney? Just because he was smiling..which kind of startled me for obvious reasons. If he is, it certainly wouldn't surprise me...

Eulogy

This is not an encyclopaedic entry, it's eulogy. Most amusing is the style of wording in the musical influences section: a fine art in sophistry to avoid saying he copied an awful lot from others, including Pixies, Killing Joke, Neil Young. Using words like "references", "influences" and "sincerity" doesn't escape the fact that he took entire riffs and chord structures from the aforementioned and was subsequently worshipped by many as a musical genius. I invite you to listen to Crazy Horse's "Mr Chips" and tell us all what it reminds you of.

Crazy Horse "Mr Chips"

Actually thats a Rockets song, before they became Crazy Horse

Murder Conspiracy Theory Rebuttals Section

With the murder theory contigent came the theory rebuttal contingent, explained notably on the cobaincase site, I believe. I'm thinking it would be fair to represent those arguments as well as the murder theory ones. I can contribute when I get a chance. NeoApsara 21:03, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Conspiracy sounding El Duce depiction

El Duce was hit by a train while intoxicated. It certainly isn't as suspicious as the "unusual circumstances" description in this article makes it sound. It comes across a little too much like "he had evidence that Kurt was murdered, and then was killed in what was probably a murder". Surely some better term can be used. Why can't it just say he was struck by a train?